Hi,
I’m considering the remote possibility of placing a heavy safe in a second floor closet. The safe weighs 1520lbs and is 5.8sf. That loads the floor at 260psf. Isn’t standard frame construction usually rated at ~40psf?
Ignoring for a minute the considerable problem of actually getting it upstairs, is there any way to make this work?
What if it was located (not my first choice) over a downstairs partition wall?
Jerry
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Replies
it'll take more than a partition... it's a point load... you have to transfer that load all the way to a footing
steel plate on a solid wood, a steel, or a masonry column would be the easy solution
It's a lot more safe than I wanted, but I got it for free and couldn't say no. Now I have to figure out what to do with it.Another area of the second floor is cantilevered over the first floor by 2'. If I centered the safe over the first floor outside wall, the load would go to the foundation, but being the safe is only 30" wide I would only catch two or barely three studs. Since they'd be in compression it might be enough, but I don't know. ???
Got a garage? The bas*+#^% would probably never even look in there for ALL your $$$$.
Does it have to be on the second floor? You want to make sure it's supported properly. You also have to shore up the path on the way to it's final resting place while your moving it. I dropped one down a flight of stairs once and they come down hard.
I don't know what your working with as far as getting it to the second floor but moving it around is a piece of cake. Use 3/4" rollers and a large pry bar.
I'm bringing sexy back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yIqwyR1ays
I hope you keep the possibility of it being remote. Otherwise be sure it has a clear shot to the basement... That's where it's going to end up someday.
On a more serious note, I don't want to be on the hose line fighting a fire in that place. It's going to kill someone.
The safe weighs 1520lbs and is 5.8sf.
Man, you must have a lot of cash going in that bad boy..........;-)
Cement it into your basement floor if you have the space. It would be a lot easier than to reframe your second floor joists.
When, and if, you should get that up to the second floor please let us know how you did it. I recall, several times in fact, it took five or six of us to bring one Sub-Zero refrig into the kitchen of some of the houses will built. It's a bit bigger but it's only about 900 lbs, yours is smaller but half again heavier...good luck!
He oughtta fill it with helium. Pizza cake then.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
So, what you have there is a 30 x 28 stand-up safe likely 66-72' tall, right?
You might wat to look on the bottom if you can, often the corners have pads or feet (if with rounded edges) in the corners, so you really never get full surface contact--so that 4 x 380# point loads. (Which is about what a claw-foot tub with water and a person runs, per foot.) Recall that the floor loading situation you are talking about is the same on a wood framed first floor as upon a wood-framed second floor.
Remember, you can build a stressed-skin support structure to better distribute the load to the floor. If you make it the same height as furniture-moving castors, that can be handy too. if the safe is going into a closet, make the support deck the full width of the closet, as this will not only buy you more surface area for the loading, but is also gives a nice finished look to this.
Note, too, that the floor will not be level, so you will be shimming the safe to get it to plumb (or the door will bang open, or closed, or bind on the door bolts). The shim area winds up being the support area--not the feet. (Oh, leave the shims long, for at least a year, you will need to tweak them a tad--even on concrete floors.)
Upstairs is not bad. You go in the phone book, and get professional movers. They have all the gear to make it easier. Have them only make the lift from first to second floor (that way only you know where the final destination is. Why pay? Well gee, when the banisters get busted, or the stair rail is knocked loose, their insurance pays.
Oh, while we are at this, an DPCV is a handy thing to put in the closet first. Why? Well, for some "investments" that one puts in the safe, an electric humidifaction system can be very handy. At least until you try to plug the fool thing in. Ok, so they make passive humidity controls, why the outlet? Because a lamp, a gooseneck desk lamp, for instance, is very handy inside the dark, poorly lit, closet (also nice for being able to see inside the safe, too). Otherwise, that magnetic flashlight will either never be there, or its batteries will be not only long dead, but long corroded, too. (Yes, this is something I have more than a small amount of experience with.)
Personally, if you doo have a closet to modify, I rather like to recoomend treating it like a "silver closet." That's gutting to the studs. insulating with rock wool, using Type "X" board to cover. then using pinned hinges on the door, and swapping for a solid door, too. (True silver closet also gets lined in no-tarnish cloth.) Gutting the closet makes it easy to fix things like lighting and outlest and the like--but is a hard sell with the Design Committee at times. Unless one puts in storage for the heirloom silver or other precious items, like fancy jewelry. Real good idea to go visit the local locksmith and eyeball their security cabinets, so as to have a place to lock away items, too. You also need storage for all the things you use to carry the investments around in when not safely in the safe.
If you wind up very worried about your local firefighters (and many really ought to think of them more), and you are in a small enough urban area, you can often go by the local firehouse and ask to talk to the Engineer. Since the equipment is both valuable and complex to operate, the person allowed to drive is an experienced, senior, member of the FD. They are expected to keep and retain a large quantity of acrane knowledge about their individual service area. So, if you tell the engineer that you have a safe upstairs, or some other potential difficulty, the engineer can assess how important that knowledge is. Bringing coffee and easy-to-eat food to the firehouse will not hurt, either.
Too much info to reply individually, but thank you everyone for the input.No, unfortunately I don't have enough cash to fill it ;-) but I have a few things that should be protected and aren't. I picked this up for nothing (except trailer & equipment rental to transport).It's a jeweler's safe with a completely flat bottom; only 32" tall and I was worried that it might kill someone in a fire, but telling people about it compromises security and based on the type of safe, someone might assume the contents are more valuable than they are. Most of the ground floor is on a slab and I think that's where it needs to go. The outside wall of the closet is centered over a 10' bay window, so I think that idea is done. The rest of the closet walls do not line up with downstairs partition walls, so I might be out of options.I have heavy moving experience, so I wasn't worried about getting it upstairs, but I am worried about it staying there.So, it's the ground floor or sell it and buy something lighter, unless there are any other ideas.Thanks,
Jerry
Edited 12/27/2008 9:25 pm ET by Jerry18
Good call on keeping it on the first floor. I move a lot of safes for a living. You can do it with a pallet dolly and a couple pieces of 3X4 cribbing, or you can roll it on rollers to where ever you want.
I'm bringing sexy back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yIqwyR1ays
I move a lot of safes for a living
Destined to be a 'favorite quote' ??
I was surprised everyone missed the one about dropping the safe down the stairwell. LOL
I'm bringing sexy back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yIqwyR1ays
Very good thought on dropping threw during a fire and injuring a firefighter.
But any fire safe that I have had said that it would void the warranty of being fireproof if installed in upper levels of wood framed houses.
Would not garrenty that safe wouldn't break open if per chance it was real hot and fell.
I'm surprised at so many negative comments on this idea. I've installed a couple 1200# safes on second floor having calculated that it's about the same as a cast iron tub full of water. No measurable deflection in the floor system, though we do design for 50" live load and low deflection. Getting it up the stairs is only a matter of the right manpower and equipment. Personally, I would install where the use of it was best.But if this is a tract home built to minimum standards, I might think twice about going upstairs with it.
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I passed up a free piano in my old farmhouse in PA. It had 3x6 joists on 32" centers, 18' wall to wall with a summer beam in the middle, with roughsawn 1x pine flooring. Just couldn't bring myself to try it..LOL.
My piano here is sitting on about the same size/type of floor, but there is no celler below, so if it goes, it only drops a foot.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Wonder if Boss has a calculator for that in preventing vibrations?'course music makes for good vibes anyways.
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"I would install where the use of it was best"Exactly why I wanted it upstairs, but the second floor is 2x8 joists spanning 12' on either side of a W8x40 beam that spans 13.5' in the other direction. The closet I'd like to put it in is 6' x 11' and runs the same way as the FJ's. One of the 6' walls is centered along the steal beam's span (but a foot shy of the beam) and the other 6' wall is centered over a 10' bow window (supported by a double 2x12 microlam).One one hand I'm thinking like you - that it not a big deal. I know it's not going to crash through the floor, but I am worried that there may be some sagging (and a cracked living room ceiling) over time.If I do it, I may go for the microlam.
OK, given some real facts now - I'd say you have minimally adequate framing structure for normal use - definitely not enough for a point load like that safe.
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You may be referring to safes that are not UL approved. UL testing for fire safes requires they pass a drop test which simulates falling through a three story building. They heat the safe to 2000° and drop it 30' onto a pile of bricks. The safe must remain closed.