This is hard to believe but it’s true and it’s a problem that I’d appreciate advice on.
HO has a house where the walls are made of cinder blocks and on the interior walls there is irregular shaped stone veneer adhered to the cinder blocks. The HO wants me to go over the stone veneer with Drywall because he’s tired of the veneer.
So, to me the solution is to install 1×3 fur strips over the veneer. The veneer appears to be a concrete product, that is it looks and feels like it’s made from some form of concrete material. They are solid pieces. They are of course bonded to the cinder block with mortar.
Every time I installed a concrete tapcon screw the screw would go in so far and then bam, it’s just start spinning in the hole without gripping. A few screws gripped tight, but most did not. So we’d drill another hole and try another spot. More of the same. In 6 hrs today we only got up 3 fur strips. We then tried fluted masonry nails, 2 1/2″ long. Most of the time they worked, but for every one that held 2 or 3 didn’t. We’re just spinning our wheels, nothing seems to be holding.
I’ve never had this prob before, tapcons or concrete nails always did the job. We have a lot of fur strips to put up, so advice is appreciated.
Replies
It looks to me that you have two options. Option one: Demo out the fake stone wall if the area of the wall isn't too big. Option two: frame up a wall in front of the stone if can afford the loss of space. If both these options are not tenable for whatever reason and you really need to fasten those furring strips over those fake rocks , I would use a good pl like franklins and just hammer cut nails in , predrilling with an undersize masonry bit first helps. It'll be hard to keep that wall from being wavy though.
Can you easily get some drive in anchors? These have solved the problem of "soft" masonry for me. 1/4'' hole, 3 to 3-1/2'' long has worked in soft brick quite well using 1x furring. Give them a try.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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A drive in anchor? What exactly is that? I may know what it is by some other name.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Matts suggestion for a drive anchor is similar to what I'm talking about.
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However, Hilti and others have a plastic shank anchor rather than metal. These are what I have used with success.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 12/12/2006 6:05 am ET by calvin
Do you really have cinder block or do you mean cement block. My recollection of cinder block is a rather fragile, porous material that would blow out into the cell every time you looked cross-eyed at it.
SO, I have no experience using tapcons in cinder block but I would expect them to grind a hole rather than to cut threads, especially if you use anything less than 1/4" and do not have your hole drilled through to the cavity or extra deep in the web.
You might also not be using a long enough screw and are attempting to anchor to both the veneer and the block. I would try 1/4" screws that will reach the cell and beyond. The point and first 1/4-3/8" don't hold anything.
With nails I expect you are not hitting the mortar joints consistently and the irregular surface is causing the furring to bounce. You might also be counting on the veneer to hold rather than sinking the nail into the joint.
Have you tried gun nailing with case hardened nails? Expensive but not as much as the time you are losing now. You would also have to hit the joints or risk blowing out every cavity you hit.
Or, do the best you can with the screws and use them to hold the strip up while a lavish application of PL Premium sets up.
Yep, these are CINDER blocks, complete with webbing. We were drilling the holes into the webbing almost every time, evidenced by the bit all of a sudden pushing forward once it broke into the webbing.
The veneer is about 1" thick off the cinder block, the fur strip is of course 3/4" so that gives you 1 3/4" to go thru before hitting the block behind. For that reason we chose 2 1/4" and 2 3/4" long screws. the screws would start into the hole, you'd feel the resistance and then right about when the screw was about to draw the fur strip tight it'd just stop and spin, it wouldn't bite anymore. Usually about 1/4" to 1/8" protruding from the fur strip. We tried boring a deeper hole at times, but still no dice. It'd just go so far and it'd stop every time. Dangdest thing I ever saw. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Seems the cinder block is too soft to hold the screw , strips out rather than providing a grip. Maybe softer screws?
Also a rotor hammer will blow a large chip off the inside of the web when in percussion mode, maybe try "drill only mode" if you have it on your drill cinder block is soft and should drill easily .
I would not use a PAT, you can blow right thru cinder blocks , I know from hard earned experience.
I am wondering if those screw in dry wall anchors,or drive in ones, or even wooden dowels into the block and some long sheet metal screws may provide an answer.
I am with the others though for the untimate way to go , strip off the rock and either furr out or reframe.Edited 12/11/2006 11:57 pm ET by dovetail97128
Edited 12/12/2006 12:00 am ET by dovetail97128
Sounds like you are going about this all the wrong way.
Don't let a client dictate the solution to a problem. I get them to explain what the problem is and what the goal is. Then I determine the best solution to the problem. I listen to their suggestions, but most HOs have about one one-hundre=ths of the experience I have, if that.
So approach this with confidence and professionally.
That fake stone veneer will come off that wall very easily with a demo hammer. Then you have a flat surface to work with to do one of several things - build a freamed SR wall in front of it with added insulation if appropriate
or
plaster right onto the wall
or
glue and shoot or screw furring to the wall for hanging SR to.
or
............
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I had this problem too. the screw gun is turning too fast. also make sure the pilot hole not too big. I swap from a drywall gun to a deck gun and it solved the problem.
Furring over an irregular stone wall to get a surface flat enough to drywall... seems to me, to be a waste of time.
But then again I'd never consider furring a block wall for drywall in the first place.
Frame a new wall.
blocks are old...
hole size is 1/32" to large... drop down a notch...
screw is too short..
hole isn't clean...
hole isn't deep enough..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
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I been using 2 1/4" and 2 3/4" screws and I been using 1/4" shanked screws. For the bit I been using a 3/16" hammer bit. Earlier we were using 3/16" shanked screws that were 2 1/4 and 2 3/4 respectively. We went up to 1/4" shanks thinking maybe a bigger bite would be what we needed.
For 1/4" shanks Tapcon recommends a 3/16" hammer bit. I wonder if I step down a notch to 5/32" hammer bit if that will give me the extra bite I need, the hole will be only a tad smaller, not much, but maybe enough to make the difference. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
find an outlet for Bosch bits...
they make a series of bits for CC screws...
read the pakages..
they are rated for old or new CC and for block.... they are all different dia...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
is the screw running into the void???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Someone said drive in anchors: this is what I think of: http://www.smithfast.com/naildrv.htm
I'd try a PAT (powder actuated tool) too.
Use cut nails. The cut nails wedge and get tighter. the fluted nails punch a hole and then get loose.
My 50 yo cinder block house was built with firing strips attached to the block with cut nails. I'm remodeling the bath now and wanted to add one or two additional strips to the block. Although the cut nails appeared to work fine when the house was built, do you think that they may not work as well with the now older block?
They will still work great. They are hardened and can "snap" and fly so be careful.
If you are drilling through into the voids of the blocks, maybe these Hilti "togglers" would do the trick. Unlike toggle bolts, these things enable you to install the toggle in the wall and then remove the screw without losing the attachment. Put your screw through the furring strip and tighten down.
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Wire lath and stucco. You won't need to fasten it well because it will key into the fake stone.
Drill your 3/16 hole as usual. Then take a pc of flasning or coil stock scrap aboy 4" wide and with tin snips, cut off a sliver about an 1/8'' wide. Fold in half then slightly open the ends ..stuff this in the hole. Drive the screw ( even a deck screw, not a Tapcon) into this..it wadds up around the threads and makes the screw bite.
We do this all the time hanging downspouts on real soft brick or fake stone.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Fold in half then slightly open the ends ..stuff this in the hole.
I assume you mean, the open end is facing you, out of the hole. so I should take a 1/8" x 4" sliver, fold in half, insert the bent end first into the hole, put up my fur strip, use a deck screw, and screw away and it should bite? The screw won't push the aluminum into or thru the hole (where I have a web in the block?).If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Hey W.
Try Drilling a 1/4in hole thru furring and masonry, take two regular 16 d hand nails and pound them in.
Maybe three nails ,maybe bigger /smaller hole.
Dave
Yes. You can stuff it right thru the furring strip too...no need to do it the hard way.
And yes , a hunk of solder or even bare ground wire from a 14GA will sometimes work.
Just outsmart the hole..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I use zip ties folded over and put in the hole.Do this for hanging shutters on brick walls.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Oh I LIKE that..shame I don't carry them in my bags, but I DO have poprivet shanks galore....HMMMMMM?
I love this place..we are truley the force.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
you could use a ramset
Sphere's suggestion will work but you may find that a 2 inch length of solder will do the job. I've used it in many a job in soft brick,block, rock and cement. Sort of a poor mans lead anchor.
You'll like my way even better.
Using scrap shorts of electric wire #14,#12,and #10 copper with the sheathing still on the strand.
predrill insert wire screw it home.
I even have my sds drill box magic markered with the bit size and wire size combos with what size screws 8s,10s and 12s.
Also at one time there was a thread on hanging cabinets on block walls.
I did a kitchen with that problem and used the wire for the cure.
The other problem was the tapcon screw head is to ugly so the masonary screws were #8 2" and 2.5" with silver finish. I thought I had a picture of the screws but can't find it.
Edited 12/12/2006 5:49 pm by ClaysWorld
Edited 12/12/2006 5:51 pm by ClaysWorld
Edited 12/12/2006 6:05 pm by ClaysWorld
willie,
Here's an expensive option- epoxy anchors. We had to use this option once at a YMCA yoga room where the owner wanted a particular pattern of "hooks" on an existing concrete block wall. Worked very well.
Check this link- this may help.
http://www.powers.com/adhesive_foam.html
Hilti used to sell different bits for concrete and block in their anchor kits....you need a smaller bit for block !!
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
or a plain 16d nail and a piece of rebar tie wire but the nail head might not set flush.
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
?
Willie,
I had the same experience with Tapcons. Wound up applying liquid nails to the furring, using the Tapcon bit drilled a pilot hole through the furring into the block and driving a 2 1/2" cut nail with a "drill hammer" (a small 2lb sledge with a long handle). Use an impact drill to speed up the pilot holes.
Don
If you try to screw or nail into concrete, it sounds like a near-impossible task. But fastening to concrete really isn’t difficult than fastening to wood if you use the right tools and specialized fasteners.
Before installing most concrete fasteners, you must first drill a hole utilizing a masonry bit. The quickest, easiest way to drill into concrete is with a hammer drill, which uses both bit spinning and concussive blows to boreholes. If you don’t own a hammer drill you can use a simple drill, but it’ll take two to three times longer to drill each hole efficiently.
It’s also important to blow the concrete dust from the hole before inserting the fastener.
Get a rotary Hammer drill and you’ll wonder why you used a hammer drill.
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