Hi everyone.
I am working on my friends bathroom.
I need advice because I haven’t dealt with many toilet flanges that were in this bad of shape. Cast iron flange. flange is pretty deteriorated, but 80% is still intact. the bolt slots are gone however. I am going to try the metal repair pieces, that slip in on each side. They should work, however they need to be ground a little to fit properly- slide in far enough to make the bolt spacing work.
If that doesn’t work should I try one of the 3″ drop in pvc flanges? I would need to break off the old flange wouldn’t I?
Any advice and technique would be apreciated.
Webby
Replies
Not a plumber and hopefully one will come along soon but I've used a PVC flange with an expandable O ring to repair broken flanges before.
There are several different types of repair pieces, though most big boxes will only carry one or two. The two I can think of offhand are the bolts with a crescent-shaped head, maybe 3" wide, and the half circle pieces that slide under the existing flange.
I seem to also recall seeing a combo repair flange and rubber "wax ring" replacement that you screw to the floor over the existing flange. But I may have imagined that one.
If, through some miracle, the (wood?) floor below is reasonably sound, you can forgo hooking to the ring entirely and instead drive anchor screws into the floor.
Replace the flange. Flanges aren't expensive and you'll spend more time screwing around trying to fix the old one than it's worth.
Carefully pry up the edge of the lead plug (pipe) where it's been flared down over the inside rim of the flange, remove or drill out the screws holding the flange to the floor, and remove it. Leave the lead plug in place. Don't worry if the edges are a bit tattered.
Do not use a PVC or ABS flange with CI pipe and a lead toilet plug. Replace the old CI flange with a bronze one (about $5), screw it down solidly (don't try to use the old holes in the floor; they will almost certainly be stripped out), and gently flare the edges of the plug back down. Make sure they do not block the T-bolt slots. Trim with tinsnips if necessary.
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Install new brass (not 'brass plated') T-bolts and a new wax ring, then replace the toilet.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Here you go, make life easy. Cut off the old flange with your Sawzall and install this one.
http://tinyurl.com/2gkatq
bottom row in the center, Oatley 43539
thanks everyone for the quick replies. I wish I had taken a pic.
I am going to try the slide in repair flange pieces.
Dino mine doesnt look quite look like it has that much lead in it. It could though.
The subfloor is sound but not enough wood to use screws or toggles, at least not where you need it. Sub floor damage wasn't bad because the bathroom had hardwood flooring the tarpaper beneath helped protect the subfloor.
If I try any other flange, it will raise the height too much and give more greif. I would almost have to take the old flange top off.
Replacing the whole works with pvc isn't an option. The flange arm has the side inlets and I don't think enough room to fernco to pvc. However florida- the oatey 43539 looks like an option.
I HATE this kind of plumbing.
Webby
Edited 10/10/2009 11:28 pm ET by webby
Edited 10/10/2009 11:29 pm ET by webby
That pic is of a new installation I did myself. I leave more lead on the plug than a lot of plumbers because I like to flare it; some guys don't bother and just cut it flat and count on the wax to seal it all up. If the guy who installed yours cut it flat, you might not have to do any prying to get the old flange out of there.
If the subfloor is too wonky to set four new screws in, you better consider ripping it up and checking the framing underneath it. Very few old toilet installations are free of rot damage after all that time.
Replacing the flange ring itself is an easy job; what you don't want to get involved in is having to remove and install a new lead plug on an old CI waste line.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I agree about the plugging cast iron.
No the subfloor is pretty good just not tight around the pipe. 3/4 diagonal, T and G pine or fir, tar paper and 2 1/4 oak hardwood above that. The oak was damaged and replaced today. The tarpaper saved the subfloor.
I will look at replacing the flange itself with the bronze. Just havent done anything that radical before. Piping is well supported on a notched floor joist. knocking the old off might not be bad if the repair flanges don't work.
I am guessing the house was built in the fifties. I am 39 and this thing is not quite twice my age. So I am in a learning curve here. It 's not that bad I just wish I had more experience with it. I have set plenty of pvc planges.
Webby
Edited 10/11/2009 12:14 am ET by webby
Unless there's something about your setup I'm not seeing in my mind's eye, this is as easy as falling off a log. The flange is just a ring that you screw to the floor. Four screws, dat's it. You can angle them outwards a bit to get a bite on some wood if the rough hole was cut too big. Or you can cut out a square of subfloor, install some 2x blocking, and fabricate a new plywood patch to fit in there with a perfect, round hole cut on the drill press with yer hole saw....
The lead plug is what is actually attached to the CI waste line; it's seated in there probably with oakum and hot lead. That, you don't touch--except for the top end where it's cut off, if you need to pry it up a tad to free the old busted flange ring.
One nice thing about working with lead plugs is that they are very forgiving of being pried and tweaked and bent and hammered on....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino, is anyone still pouring lead out there in Quebec?
Reason I ask is I'm doing a National Occupational Analyisis for Plumbers in Ottawa in November. Don't know if anyone from Quebec will be there. We quit teaching lead awhile ago.
I'm not sure. I don't do it, but then 90% of the DWV I see is ABS. Some older places have PVC; it was legal for inside work for a while in the 70s, I think (but no longer is). No hubbed CI until you get back to the 60s and earlier and most major repairs on those consist of demolition and replacement with ABS.
There are almost certainly a few old timers around who have done a fair amount of poured joints; whether anyone still does it on any kind of a regular basis, tho, I just don't know.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/11/2009 1:22 am ET by Dinosaur
how come pvc is not allowed?did they have trouble with pvc? pvc and abs are both ok here and is pretty evenly split. main reason that abs gets used is no primer,glue and stick it.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
PVC is now used here for septic and underground runs only. We call it 'BNQ' in local plumbers' slang, which is the initials of the provincial standards bureau. It's thinner-walled than comparable sized ABS, and thus you need to use an adapter to make the connection to the ABS house piping where it dives underground or goes through the foundation wall.
The PVC I see in older houses is usually not in good shape. None of it is as much as 40 years old, but when I pull a toilet and find PVC waste pipe under the plug, I know I'm going to have to be careful not to bust it all to smithereens. I don't know if that's caused by exposure to UV or ozone or what, but it's what I've observed.
I've never seen ABS degrade that way.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks Dino for the advice. You have given me good advice in the past.
It sounds easy, but I have not looked at as many as you. I think the lead is just cut flat.
I am just helping a friend out on weekends, so I don't have full access to the job. I am fair with plumbing but not great at this type of thing.
He wanted me to help him lay a new sheet vynil floor, hang the Johny cabinet, the medicine cabinet, and relocate the lighting. I don't think he realized the flange was bad.
Like I said I am kicking myself for not having a picture to post.
Webby
Edited 10/11/2009 9:37 am ET by webby
LOL. The first one I had to deal with scared the beejaysus outta me, too. But I got thru it, and there was no internet back then.
You'll do fine.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I may be missing something, but I understood the original post to say he had a c.i. flange, that indicates he has a pack and pour joint from flange to a cast iron stub, if thats so he can't use the brass flange?
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I was looking at options and bought one of these to have on hand. The Super Ring!
When the vynil underlayment and vynil are in place the old flange will just about be flush with the new floor. I would rather have it on top, but without changing the flange ring or busting the flange ring off and using a twist and fit, the flange height will be about flush, thought about following the mfr. instructions and installing this on top of the old ci flange and new flooring.
http://www.superiortool.com/tools/plumbaccess/21015.htmWebby
I am almost sure it is CI, bronze wouldn't look like soft, brown, rusty crumbling metal.
Webby
Edited 10/11/2009 5:57 pm ET by webby
My flange I am dealing with is similar to this one with out the front and back slots. Mine has slots on the side and small oles front and back. This pick is from the terrylove message board.Webby
With that type if flange the repair is easy, just use one of the spanner type flanges that slide under what remains of the existing flange and fasten to the floor.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Thanks that is the plan so far, the flange is intact, but not the slots for the bolts.Webby
I understood the original post to say he had a c.i. flange, that indicates he has a pack and pour joint from flange to a cast iron stub,
Yeah, that's why I prefaced my original advice with the proviso that unless there is something I'm not seeing in my mind's eye about his situation, I would do thus and such....
I have been imagining a CI stack with a lead plug at the top end, and a CI flange ring sitting over that. That's a set up I've seen a few times in older places here.
But if he's really facing what this photo shows, it's a different story.
View Image
In this case, yeah, he could replace the flange ring...but it looks like he'd have to pour lead filler to seal the flange to the CI stub, not something I'd recommend he get into.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
so cut off the old flange and install any one of these......
View Image
Torque set deep bodied closet flange
Heavy duty torque set deep bodied cast iron closet flange with compression seal to waste line
Ideal for new or retrofit installations
Click here for larger image
Expansion Flanges
View ImageABS expansion flange for toilets
These Great Expansion Flanges Feature
ABS and PVC replacement for cast iron closet flange
Fits inside 4" CI/ABS, 3 screws to tighten and seal
Click here
Cast Iron Toilet Flanges
View Image
Torque set closet flange
Heavy duty torque set cast iron closet flange with compression seal to waste line
Ideal for new or retrofit installations
Instantly Set (sets instantly)
Click here for larger image
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Yeah, I like the look of those torque-set puppies, but my worry would be if the sub-floor/framing isn't real solid, the waste pipe would get tweaked everytime some heavyweight sat down to read the sports pages. Eventually, the lead in the joint at the hub is gonna let go or something might even crack.
In general, I don't think it's a great idea to tie the bowl rigidly to the stack, especially with CI. But even with plastic: it's yet another reason I'm not over-fond of glue-on ABS one-piece flange connections.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
so repair the floor...
I prefer that the floor holds the terlit...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Thats a perfect spot for one of the spanner flanges, no lead pouring. Slide it under the remains of the existing flange and screw it to the floor.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I'm a relatively old guy, 61 and retired. Forty years ago, even ten years ago maybe, I would have repaired the toilet flange on my own. I'm indeed fortunate that at my age I can afford to have my plumber do it for me. The collateral advantage of that is that we've built a relationship, sort of like what you'd have with a family doctor. I've been able to call him at his home during emergencies and get very rapid response -- "Rollie, I have a problem." Can't replace that. It's an investment to me.
Hi guys. Thanks for the additional opinnions.
I posted the pic to give an indication of the condition of my flange. However mine is 90% there no large broken areas. I have not tangled much with cast iron flanges and this is a friends bath I am helping him (volunteering to help) with and as such haven't had access to it since last weekend. I can tell you that I don't have a bronze closet ring as Dino's pic shows.
I think it is a pack and pour flange. I just didn't have the chance to dig around on it for lead evidence.
My problem: 90% of the flange is intact, just no slots for bolts the outsides are rusted away on both sides. My initial plan is to effect a repair using the spanner flanges. if this wont work I will look at using the super ring shown in my earlier post, or cut the flange off and use a twist and seal of some sort. I like the torque down flanges but pricey versus pvc. My friends check book wont like that. Webby
there are a boat load of repairs available to you on the less money aspect...
investigat what the BB's have and jump on it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Just remember that if you use a torque-down, the floor has got to be real solid so the toilet won't rock and wiggle the pipes
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
> I HATE this kind of plumbing.Is there any other kind?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
True.Webby