I messed up. I’m a homeowner who is building a small pole barn with a 15′ x 21′ loft, and I have all the joists and plywood installed for the loft floor. I used ZMax joist hangers, but somehow missed the message to use galvanized nails and nailed all the hangers into double 2X8 girders with bright 16d common nails.
So what should I do now? Pull them all and nail in galvanized? Leave it? If I pull all the nails and renail with galvanized in the same holes, will I lose holding power?
Why do I even need galvanized nails in this interior application that’s not nailed into P.T. wood?
I assume it won’t pass the framing inspection.
Feeling pretty stupid.
ThinMan
Replies
In a true interior application you do not need galvanized nails. The hangers are galvanized because they always are, but there are plenty of bright joist hanger nails out there and you can use them in the basement or crawl space, or within the building envelope such as with hurricane ties and truss ties.
I would question whether a pole barn is an interior application. Around here lots of them are used for stock, and over time any bright fasteners would start to rust. Probably not much rust, but it's not entirely dry and they'll pick up dew. If yours is heated workshop space then maybe you're OK.
Easiest thing to do is call the inspector.
The ZMax hangers are made for using with ACQ treated lumber in exterior applications. In that case, you'd definitely need coated nails.
Inside a pole barn, I see no need for either one. Maybe if you're going to have pigs inside - The fumes from their manure can be corrosive.
Like someone else said - Call you inspector before you do anything. I doubt there's any reason to pull the nails.
Simpson tech support: 800-999-5099 if you're not ready to talk to the inspector...
You don't need gal nails inside. Just so you didn't use 8s or something like that. If you look closely at the hangers some/most have the nail requirement stamped right in them. It usually specifies 10p common nails I think - doesn't say HDG or anything like that. Same if you look at Simpson specs. I do think the "common" part is somewhat significant in that the heads on common nails are thick and well attached. Box nails, for example have significantly less strength at the head. A real DA would use roofing nails :-)
No phone calls are necessary. You are good to go. Move on to something more important.
BTW - just as an aside - yesterday I called a BI who I am somewhat friendly with and told/asked him: "I want to pour a thin slab of concrete in a walk in crawl space. Do I need an underslab inspection?" His response: "No, as long as it is not living space. But... you need to call the inspector who is assigned to your area because he might have different rules he plays by." Both work for the same city out of the same department. Both have the same job. Hows that for a definitive answer?
Thanks gentlemen, for your help. What started me thinking I messed up was the statement "Hot dipped galvanized nails are required with ZMax connectors." Simpson has this on their website and on all the bin labels at the lumber yard. Of course I didn't notice it when I bought the connectors, only after I had them nailed up. I have a call in to the building inspector, so I should know soon. I appreciate you all taking the time to give me a hand.ThinMan
You are addresing a people issue...some inspectors in the same city will come out and talk about fishing, not realizing you have a crawl space, pass your project and wish you a good weekend.......others will get out their tape, flashlight, magnifying glass and ask you where the engineers stamp is on your drawings.
OK - so what's your point?
"Whats' you point?"
Your observation:
"Both work for the same city out of the same department. Both have the same job. Hows that for a definitive answer?"
Reread my post. Be prepared for either inspector...doing what is right the first time....sorry you could not figure that out.
"Do I need an underslab inspection?" If the question is not for reason such as "Do I need to request the inspection", or a question so you can coordinate the inspection with your schedule, why be concerned about an inspection if you have done your job right?
Not to say that you have not, or would consider short cutting build methods, but another piece of advise you have given may lead others to believe you make uninformed decisions that could lead to trouble (see below).
Being that there are some inspectors who may require a by the book build, your advise "No phone calls are necessary. You are good to go. Move on to something more important." is definately questionable.
This is especially true when considering the install is in conflict with written instructions from Simpson. My engineer told me recently that 12 penny nails, used to fasten clips can actually weaken the lumber where the clip is attached. Simpson fastening nails for clips are only about 1 1/2" long.
My engineer is a Texas Department of Insurance certified windstorm inspector. He would not pass clips installed with 12 penny brites....inside or out. Perhaps, this brings us back to people issue and the differance in inspectors. He is a by the book inspector, which does not bother me. It is true that some inspectors do not know or simply do not care.
Referenced engineer: Max Hagan Engineerng / Clute, Texas / 979-297-3051
I have learned to be careful and as informed as possible. According to the Biblical proverb "presumption creates nothing but strife". To be long with case in point. We built an electrical service the other day on my ranch, under guidence from my electrician. He told me to leave 10' out the top of the weatherhead for power companies hok-up. I would have left 4-6' if I had not asked. The power company would have turned me down and I would be pulling the old wire, buying and pulling all new wire. 360' @ $1.75 per LF
Edited 10/28/2005 1:10 pm ET by txlandlord
Edited 10/28/2005 1:23 pm ET by txlandlord
Edited 10/28/2005 2:01 pm ET by txlandlord
For clarification: my first stuff in read. Your responses in blue, my responses in balck.
"Whats' you point?"
Your observation:
"Both work for the same city out of the same department. Both have the same job. Hows that for a definitive answer?"
Reread my post. Be prepared for either inspector...doing what is right the first time....sorry you could not figure that out.
OK - so I call in the inspection, inspector comes out and says "you don't need an underslab inspection on unheated space", and charges me a $60 trip fee. Great!
"Do I need an underslab inspection?" If the question is not for reason such as "Do I need to request the inspection", or a question so you can coordinate the inspection with your schedule, why be concerned about an inspection if you have done your job right?
Not sure what you are driving at here. But as far as "why be concerned about an inspection if you have done your job right?". In addition to code requirements, each building jurisdiction that I build in has their own set of procedures that include what inspections are required. All require under slab inspections for heated living area. Concrete in crawl space? Could be questionable... But if the inspection is required but not preformed prior to pouring and the inspector flags it on the final, well your pretty much f&%#ed. So, as you stated in your post, I was being cautious. Wrong nails in joist hangers would be a little different. <!----><!----><!---->
Not to say that you have not, or would consider short cutting build methods, but another piece of advise you have given may lead others to believe you make uninformed decisions that could lead to trouble (see below).
Being that there are some inspectors who may require a by the book build, your advise "No phone calls are necessary. You are good to go. Move on to something more important." is definately questionable.
OK - where in the book (or the Simpson web site) does it say that joist hangers require galvanized nails? That is the question - right? Or 1.5" nails - either brite or galvanized.
This is especially true when considering the install is in conflict with written instructions from Simpson. My engineer told me recently that 12 penny nails, used to fasten clips can actually weaken the lumber where the clip is attached. Simpson fastening nails for clips are only about 1 1/2" long.
OK - so we aren't talking about clips (do you mean hurricane clips?) We are talking about joist hangers. Maybe it's a local lingo thing... At any rate direct me to where it says use 1.5" nails for joist hangers. - Or maybe you are talking about something else. BTW - the recomendation for most hurricane ties (what we call clips) is 8d nails, and the length is not specified. A few do specifically require 1.5" nails and some even require 10d nails. Some specifically require longer than 1.5" nails:
I just walked out to my truck and retrieved a box of LUS210Z joist hangers - 2x10 doubles. Right on the box it says "NAILS: HEADER 10d JOISTS 4 10d" Doesn't say anything about 1.5" nails. In addition there is a picture on the box with the caption "Double shear nailing for greater strength" That same picture is shown on this page - http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LUS-HUS.html it's about 3 screens down and is in a circle with the caption: "Double shear nailing top view" Do those nails look like 1.5" nails to you? Do you think 1.5" nails would even be adequate in that situation? Another picture in that same row says: "Typical LUS28 Installationuse .148x3" (10d common) or .148x3 1/4" (16d sinker) nail" Do you think that 12 penny brights fall within this recomendation even though they are not specifically sited (you gotta use some common sense here).
My engineer is a Texas Department of Insurance certified windstorm inspector. He would not pass clips installed with 12 penny brites....inside or out. Perhaps, this brings us back to people issue and the differance in inspectors. He is a by the book inspector, which does not bother me. It is true that some inspectors do not know or simply do not care.
Referenced engineer: Max Hagan Engineerng / Clute, Texas / 979-297-3051
That's nice. But it's not clear to me that you know what "the book" says. I'm just providing advice based on information I have read and first hand experience. I'm guessing that "your engineer" is quite qualified, but perhaps that you did not fully understand what he said,
I have learned to be careful and as informed as possible. According to the Biblical proverb "presumption creates nothing but strife". To be long with case in point. We built an electrical service the other day on my ranch, under guidence from my electrician. He told me to leave 10' out the top of the weatherhead for power companies hok-up. I would have left 4-6' if I had not asked. The power company would have turned me down and I would be pulling the old wire, buying and pulling all new wire. 360' @ $1.75 per LF
Caution is good but may not be necessary if you already know the answer... Sounds like your electrician didn't have to make any calls before he gave his advice. I have read the joist hanger installation info, etc, etc. I build houses for a living and know what nails are required for joist hangers. I have framed professionally as well. I have my framers use regular 10p nails for the shear part of the joist hanger. For the face nail part, I don't care if they use the 1.5" or common nails. 12 penny brights would not bother me either so long as they were not outside or in PT lumber. BTW - not sure if you know it or not but 12 brites are about the same diameter as 1od hot dipped gal nails. The original poster didn't know the answer, so I gave it to him.
Also, I added a little bit of recent experience about how useful BIs can be at providing definitive answers. I guess that was the part that threw you. That 1st BI I have a good repor with and he gave me his radio #. That is not to say that he has never rejected one of my jobs, nor does it mean that he doesn't do a good job. I think he was just giving me his CYA answer. BTW - the 2nd BI has not returned my call - granted it was only yesterday morning. Oh! - BTW - he has NEVER returned my calls in the past year since I've been working in that neighborhood... I'm sure it was a good use of time calling him yesterday. :-) BTW - part of my job is passing inspections - each time I don't it's a $60 fee. So guess what - I make a point of passing them, although as far as the framing, I can always backcharge the framer. Still failed inspections take time out of the build schedule and I'd rather just pass them to start with.
Thinman says
What started me thinking I messed up was the statement "Hot dipped galvanized nails are required with ZMax connectors." Simpson has this on their website and on all the bin labels at the lumber yard.
"12 penny brights would not bother me either so long as they were not outside or in PT lumber. BTW - not sure if you know it or not but 12 brites are about the same diameter as 1od hot dipped gal nails. The original poster didn't know the answer, so I gave it to him."
Hot dipped galvanized nails are required with ZMax connectors." Simpson has this on their website and on all the bin labels at the lumber yard.
He says he did use ZMax. I wonder if there is chemical reation they are concerned about.
Nail length? I know joist hangers can be applied many places, but why use anything longer that an 1 1/2" nail when fastening to an 1 1/2" ledger? Why use anything longer that 1 1/2" nail when face nailing the hanger to the 1 1/2" joist? Check the holes. Your example is for "double" joist hangers. Someone has posted about Simpson's patented shear nail (toenail) system, but if I remember correctly the face nail holes are also avaliable on the same hanger.
Simpson makes these nails for these applicatiions, and they are easily found down here....my lumber supplier sells them to us in 50lb boxes. Your example is for "double" joist hangers.
We are both from down south, we are (were) both professional framers...I retired from framing and now build homes with subs. This clip, hanger and nail stuff ain't worth messing up a relationship. Aside from that, there are details that can get lost or easily misunderstood info or intentions.
That's nice. But it's not clear to me that you know what "the book" says.
Wait, I am from Tennesse...we have a reputation to fulfill when it comes to fightin' I do not know what the book says...that is why I ask....The original poster didn't know THE ANSWER, so I gave it to him." but in conflict with
Hot dipped galvanized nails are required with ZMax connectors." Simpson has this on their website and on all the bin labels at the lumber yard.
I am terrible, sorry.
Hey dude, the shear nail thing using 10ds is an option for greater strenth, but joist hangers (think about it) sure are adequate without the option...I am old school...started framing in 1971 without guns...when possible I prefer shear blocking to joist hangers...it is more routy (like what attracted me to framing).....and less tedious.....I'lll be OK after my first or perhaps second longneck. Goodnight.
What do you thnk about http://www.brotherscustomworks.com? I ain't on the cover of Rolling Stone, but there is my ugly mug on the website home page.
Edited 10/28/2005 7:27 pm ET by txlandlord
Edited 10/28/2005 7:36 pm ET by txlandlord
Edited 10/28/2005 8:04 pm ET by txlandlord
** If attaching joist hangers to a single 2x header, 1-1/2" nails may be used for the face nailing portion of the joist hangers. ( 3" nails are always required for the patented double shear nailing portion.) Please request mixed nails in the comments section of your shopping cart.
The Simpson Strong-Tie face mount LUS joist hangers in this series have the highest loads of any face mount hangers. All hangers feature Simpson's patented double shear nailing. This innovation distributes the load through two points on each joist nail for greater strength. It also allows the use of fewer nails, faster installation and the use of common nails for all connections. (do not bend or remove tabs).
Yea, I know this is an option to face nailing thru the joist...but it is Friday Night, time to break off into a cold one and go dancin...see my post in the Tavern thread.
RE the joist hanger nail length thing, which I thought was what were discussing, I think you need to check/update your sources of information. For now though - let's just agree to disagree.
No, lets keep fightin....generally when the fight is over and the dust settles guy are better friends than before. <!----><!----><!---->
Hey dude, the shear nail thing using (longer nails) is a Simpson option for greater strenth, but joist hangers (think about it) sure are adequate without the optional Simposn patented shear nail thing...I am old school...started framing in 1971 without guns...when possible I prefer shear blocking to joist hangers...it is more routy (like what attracted me to framing).....and less tedious.....<!----><!---->
I think you need to check/update your sources of information. <!----><!---->
No, you need to read and comprehend the options info more carefully. More strength...I could set a 2 x 12 with the standard nail pattern and 1 1/2" and you, I and our fat friends could dance on the 2 x 12.<!----><!---->
But, your right....we can agree to disagree....if we ever meet we can slug it out live and in person...with the books and an engineer as refs..... until one of us agrees that the other is right. In the words of Davey Crocket at the <!----><!---->Alamo<!----> "We got 30 Tennesse boys, but if there is fightin to be done, you can count them as 300." I tell these boys down here in Texas that if were not for the Tennesse Vols weakening Santa Annas army at the Alamo so you could whip em...you'd all be Mexican, speaking Spanish, taking siestas and eatin refried beans.....No on second thought, let just agree to blame Simpson for having the option, and causing trouble. <!----><!---->
My beautiful wife was born in <!----><!---->Highpoint<!---->, <!---->North Carolina<!----><!---->, see her pic and my ugly mug at ww.brotherscustomworks.com. The pic is dated...she has let her hair grow out...long and wavey now....a real distraction when I am working around the house.<!----><!---->
She is 46 and I am 51...we just had a surprise baby...a beautiful baby girl born <!---->August 3, 2005<!---->, but she is back to her teen like figure of 5'4" and 110 pounds (see distraton note).<!----><!---->
Lets go build something. I have not framed anything in several years, but this weekend I am framing a Well House for our new Church Parsonage. I designed and buiolt the Parsonage. My framer is helping me with the Well House as a gift to the Church (without his crew), and I have a young buck of a good carpenter who is helping too. My back is already hurting, and I have only lifted a cup of coffee so far. <!----><!---->
Edited 10/29/2005 9:09 am ET by txlandlord
Congrats on the addition to the family! Surprized you have time to burn here... In the website pic, I thought your wife was much younger. BTW - we (you and I) are the same age. You probably thought you were dealing with some young wipersnapper punk... :-)
Thanks for the congrats.........wife looks great for 46, huh?
Materials for the Well House did not arrive until 1:30. The framer did not show, but my youngster (27) and I got all walls framed, and plumbed / ceiling joist installed / layout for rafters / took off at 4:30. It is an 8 x 10 with 4 x 4 porch over the door
I had to keep telling him, if you want to keep up with me you will have to slow down.
I had a blast....framing is like playing basketball or another enjoyable sport....just don not have time or energy to do much.
Can I give you some advice? You're going on and on about this, and it's gonna make me and others stop reading your posts. The lengthy arguments belong in the Tavern, where a lot of us don't go.
OK, thanks. Matt and I have resolved the matter. I respect and will abide by your advise.
All due respect, and I do mean that, but I firmly believe it was you who has resolve yours and Matt's discussion. I also believe it was you who initiated this bogus waste of typing and someone else's legitimate question.
You picked the "fight", you ended it. On your terms. Sounds to me like you are a bully. Duly noted for future reference.
I look forward to more of your posts on this forum, as I have checked your website. I hope you understand how abrasive you sound about now.
Sending this before my mood changes. Hopefully the OP has gotten some good answers from the other posters. I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Post back when you repent and have a better understanding of the issues. You are only exaserbating the problem that has been resolved. We just let it go, why try to start other trouble?
Unfortunately, many things can be misunderstood without face to face conversation and the advantage of emotions, tone of voice and other indicators.
I can be a bully, and abrasive, when the need arises, but those situations are few and far between. See other post.
Also, if you review all of the info found in the post, including the Simpson website and "patented options" you will find some of the souces for the debate, and that in some instances we were both right.
My main point was in addressing Matt's comment to assume how an inspector will view work and details. I made that point.
I'm the original poster and I'm happy to report that I had my framing inspection and the building inspector agreed with the common sense answers given by most of the folks who responded to my question. He saw no need for galvanized nails in my application since they were not into P.T. wood or in a wet environment. So, at least in this case, this DIY guy doesn't need a professional to come and re-do my messed up work. I hope this isn't too much of a disappointment to CK. :)Thanks to all you guys who responded with sound knowledge and respect.ThinMan
I'm surprized you brought it up with the inspector - I'm guessing you did... Although I always try to build at or above code, when it's inspection time I don't volunteer stuff... ;-) because at that time I'm ready to move on...
That was one of the first pieces of advice I received when I started my homebuilding project - don't say anything to the inspector unless he asks you a question.
CAUTION !!! If you use anything other than simpson's 10d x 1 1/2" joist hanger nails and you experience a "failure".... they will walk away. The 1 1/2" nails are used when attaching the jst hanger to the band. the reason they are 1 1/2" is so they will not punch through the face of the band board on a deck etc. The angled nails (also 10d) are to secure the joist to the band in addition to the joist hanger. The loading and bearing #'s that are published in Simpson's lit. are based on that specific nailing sequence. I do know what I am talking about.... I have sold them for 17 yrs. That is the company line!!!
How can a nail be both 10d and 1 1/2" long?? Are you referring to those little nails that come in the Simpson boxes? Surely you can't use those for the toenail part of the nailing sequence. Maybe a diagram would help.
THE NAILS THAT SIMPSON SELLS ARE A 10D. READ MY POST. THEY ARE 1 1/2" SO THEY WILL NOT PUNCTURE OR PENETRATE THE FACE OF A 2 X WHEN ATTACHING A JOIST HANGER TO THE BAND. THE NAILS USED AT AN ANGLE ARE STANDARD HOT DIP GALV BOX NAILS TO FURTHER SECURE THE JOIST TO THE BAND. THE SHAFT OF THE JOIST NAIL IS THE SAME AS A 10D NAIL ONLY IT IS SHORTENED AT MANUFACTURING TO 1 1/2". HOPE THIS HELPS
got a problem with your caps lock button sticking?
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win... one note of clarification..
<<THE NAILS USED AT AN ANGLE ARE STANDARD HOT DIP GALV BOX NAILS TO FURTHER SECURE THE JOIST TO THE BAND. THE SHAFT OF THE JOIST NAIL IS THE SAME AS A 10D NAIL ONLY IT IS SHORTENED AT MANUFACTURING TO 1 1/2". >>>
your reference to a standard hot dipped galv....... BOX NAIL... is a typo..
that's supposed to be a COMMON... right ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dang.... how did we ever get 39 posts out of this baby, anyways?
Excellent observation Mike!
Box nails often have a very weak head, weaker than roofing nails. Box nails wouldn't pass code if I was inspecting the job.
blue
Personally, I like box nails. They don't split the sh!t out of the lumber and they seem to hold as well as, if not better than commons. Yeah, the heads come off when you try to take them out with a hammer, but they seem to hold pretty good otherwise. Maybe it's the resin? They can also be a PITA if you have a big hammer and don't know how to use it. That's when the wind starts blowing and they bend.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Box nails are allowed by Simpson, but a a reduced holding value. You can't just substitute them without checking.
I smile because I have no idea what's going on.
Boss - I was just responding to Bedevil's dislike of box nails, which I thought he was making in general. On brackets, I wouldn't make the substitution to box nails without checking first. I have always used the regular Simpson ones there. Now that I know they can maybe be used, I'll have to keep that in mind.
Don
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
In my neck of the woods.... a box nail is the nail of choice. It is nothing more than a "common" with the hot dip zinc.... terminology from various parts of the country is interesting. (Louisville, Ky)
win... your neck of the woods is the same as mine.. a box nail in RI is a box nail in Kentucky....
and a common nail is a common nail...... they are two different nails with two different shank diameters and two different points
a box nail will not have the same shear strength as a common...
so... if Simpson wants a 10d common... you can't substitute a 10d box...
now... IF Simpson says that a 10d box nail is ok... then it's ok... but they are not the same nail with a different name
a 10d box nail has a gage of # 11, a shank diameter of 0.120, and a head size of 17/64
a 10d common nail has a ga. of #9. a dia. of 0.148, and a head size of 5/16
you have to use the nail that the hanger mfr. specs or you are liable for the consequencesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I get scared when I see we are in agreement too much. It makes me feel like I'm going to have to register as a Democrat!
I gotta go shower!
Anyways, box nails AREN'T commons, and commons aren't box nails! Box nails have a much thinner shank and a thinner cap. The points can be blunt or diamond on either, but most are diamond pointed. I've seen "siding" nails that were a cross between box nails and common. These hot dipped products are marketed to handpounders that need some extra strength to pound it through the cement based products.
A lot of time, carpenters and suppliers use wrong terms to describe their wares. In my earlier days, I worked in a builders/steel supply and we had pallets of every type of nail imaginable. If a guy handed me a shipper asking for box nails, he'd look at me like I was crazy if I was loading him up from the pallet of commons! Interestingly, each contractor had his own favorites. Some guys wanted 12 sinkers. Some wanted 16d cupped casings. Others wanted 8d screw shanked, blunt tipped flooring nails.
I hate to admit it but I turned into one of those guys that always needed something weird too. I'm not too bad anymore, but still a little weird.
blue
being weird is half the fun !
fer instance, i haven't bought a bright hand nail in 30 years, ever since my old boss got sued for stains on a siding job..
the Owner bought the cedar clapboard siding and the nails.. the boss sent his crew and installed it all...
6 months later , the nails started showing rust stains all over the house.. the Owners sued, and the judge agreed.... the builder should have known better..
after a few instances of guys using brights where they should have used galvies on my own jobs, i decided the only way to avoid that was not have brights on the job.. so we don't ...and no electro-galvs either..
now... gun nails have forced me to compromise YET AGAIN !
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"If you use anything other than simpson's 10d x 1 1/2" joist hanger nails and you experience a "failure".... they will walk away."
That's a gross over-generalization. Simpson specs ALL KINDS of different nails for different situations. It's best to go by the design manual.
Bumpersticker: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Anytime I read something that is written in stone, I remember that limestone crumbles pretty easily.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's a gross over-generalization. Simpson specs ALL KINDS of different nails for different situations. It's best to go by the design manual
It's probably best not to use Simpson products ever!
blue
The lus-210/12 & lus-26-8 series hanger has been tested with the 10d nail and specified as such.... I can only tell what I know after selling them for 17 yrs! I know there are other nails for other applications. I hope this clears it up for you
Common nails and sinkers are NOT the same thing, and sinkers can't be equally substituted for commons. From page 11 of your 2005 catalog, under "instructions to the installer":"16D fasteners are common nails (9ga X 3 1/2") and cannot be replaced with 16D sinkers (8ga X 3 1/4") for full load value unless otherwise specified."Page 58 of the same catalog, at the bottom says: "10d commons or 16D sinkers may be used instead of the specified 16D at .85 of the table load value."Hell, it even shows the different sizes on one of you web pages, and 16D commons aren't anywhere NEAR the same sizer as 1D commons:http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/nails.html.The LUS series of hangers you mentioned specified 10D nails - NOT the 10D X 1.5" ones. They may work for nailing into the SUPPORTING member at a reduced load value. But they sure won't work for the shear nails.You also neglected to mention load reduction factores when talking about using the 10D X 1.5" nails. According to your website, you reduce the table value to .77 when a 10D common is specified.See: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/nails.html#loadadj.You may have been selling these things for 17 years, but you either have no clue what you're talking about, or don't know how to get it across to people on message boards.
Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. -- James Bovard(1994)
Why do I even need galvanized nails in this interior application that's not nailed into P.T. wood?
If you're inside and not using PT wood, no need for galvanized nails.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I believe that by now you have garnered that the reason for requiring galvies onteh Z-max fasteners is that when z-max are required, it is in a location with water and/or ACQ pressure treated lumber. Your situation probably has neither, but if this pole barn is a stock building rather thana storage shed, the livestock could create both a humid atmosphere contributing to rust, and an acidic environment ( due to waste products0 that contributes to degradation.
I would not pull nails and replace, but I would consider going back through and adding three or four 12d galv toenails along with each hqanger
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I don't know Piffin, I think it's time for them to start using screws.
That should settle all debate ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Aw, go get screwed!;)
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Do they make any CCA lumber anymore? It would seem to me that 2x10's & other such items which would be used for joists wouldn't need to be free of arsenic since people wouldn't be in constant contact with those?
If everything is ACQ now, what purpose would there be for making non-ACQ rated fasteners? (Obviously brights for indoor use), but it doesn't seem like it would make sense to make any galvanized fasteners/hangers, etc that aren't rated for ACQ. If you are building in a wet location, most likely you'd be using PT. I know many people use cedar or cypress, but the majority of outdoor construction is PT anymore.
Sure they make CCA, but only for marine and industrial applications and yyou have a lsew of paperwork to do to get it."what purpose would there be for making non-ACQ rated fasteners?"
You must be thinking only in terms of decks. I use far more hangers inside houses on KD SPF than in decks
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I was thinking in terms of fasteners. I can't think of any applications which you would need galvanized fasteners indoors (and hangers for that matter) unless you were using PT lumber.
If you are using indoor w/ KD lumber, then you wouldn't need galv in the first place.
I guess what I'm asking is why would anyone manufacture GALVANIZED fasteners & hangers that aren't rated for ACQ lumber.
because that is the way they have always been made. we have a damp climate and I would not dream of building without galvanized hardware, we even use galvanized sheetrock screws here. Regular black ones can telegreaph through the finish as they absorb moisture and begin to rust.
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I was going to ask you about the galvanized DW screws. On the island to your south (Vinalhaven) we use also galvanized for everything, including DW screws. Not only is it damp here, but it is salty. This really amazed me when I first started working on the island cabin years ago, but I have been following local practice.
On our "mainland house" (Buffalo, NY) I use CC sinkers and they seem to slide in with a fraction of the force that a galvanized common takes. My arm feels years younger.
I still don't see how a nail 1 1/2" long qualifies as 10 d. Nails are ranked by length, not diameter. I also don't understand why the holding power of a nail is diminished when it pokes through the wood on the other side, but I'm sure there is an answer.
I have no reason why the holding power would be diminished (although it would be undesireable for the nails to stick out too far (especially if they went through the siding).
"I still don't see how a nail 1 1/2" long qualifies as 10 d."
The 1.5" nails that were mentioned are called "10D by 1.5" nails. The diameter is important, so you can't just use a smaller nail. (Like a 6D, for instance)
The way it's been explained to me is that nails supporting hangers are rated by the "dowel bearing strength" of the wood they're stuck into. By that I mean the amount of area that's contacted by the wood under/around the nail. Larger diameter nails don't have to penetrate as farther into the wood to get the same rating as smaller ones.
The strength of nail connection is limited to 12 times the diameter of the nail. So a nail that's .125" in diameter has to be at least 1.5" long to take advantage of the full strength of the nail. It doesn't matter if the nail is a foot long after that - It won't raise the value of the connection any.
" I also don't understand why the holding power of a nail is diminished when it pokes through the wood on the other side"
I've heard people say that, but don't think it's true. I've never seen any reference to that in the NDS, or any other published documents.
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity. [Albert Einstein]
It is a 10d nail that has been made to be 1 1/2" long. It is as simple as that. I didn't invent them, I only sell them. The point to the length is so they would not punch through the face of the outside band on a deck. Also, many deck builders bolt the band directly to the brick or concrete foundation, (RIGHT OR WRONG) of the house. Think about it..... if you have a 2" nail to fasten your joist hanger, what do you do with the other 1/2"???
guess what I'm asking is why would anyone manufacture GALVANIZED fasteners & hangers that aren't rated for ACQ lumber.
I cant answer for the hangers, but I'll take a guess about fasteners.
We use "regular" galvanized fasteners for exterior trim. It's not treated, so therefore it doesn't need acq.
blue
You should have called a professional in your area, to start with. You have no idea the number of jobs I am called to, each year, to rectify a mistake by a DIY home guy! I know TV makes it look very simple, but the fact is, most carpenters spend just as much time studying their trade, as you do yours. Talk with your neighbors, friends, and local organizations. I'm sure they can stear you in the right direction. My best wishes to you, Chuck Keller
If, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!