House built ca 1925. What the &^*# am I hitting behind the plaster and lath? It feels like a solid wall of metal that no screw is penetrating. I can’t get to the studs. I’ve done this before elsewhere and was able to get the drywall on ok.
And- what can I do now? It’s in a small bathroom that I had a heck of a time fitting the pieces into place behind the sink and toilet and under the woodwork in the first place. REALLY don’t want to try to get it back out again.
FYI- I skimmed adhesive on the wall first then placed the blue board. First screws went in fine, thru the board and the plaster and lathe; they were around the window and original built-in wood medicine cabinet/mirrors. But absolutely everywhere else, the screws go in maybe 1/2 or 3/4″ and will not budge further and have not taken hold of anything, not even in the corners. I’ve made lots of holes trying everywhere. Due to the fact that It’s loose, it bowed away from the adhesive in most places. I did have the presence of mind to run get my 3rd arms and push the board against the wall where i could, but i only had 2 and i would have needed about 8 to do the job.
So- what the heck can I do now? BTW, this is a rental house that I am just giving a quick upgrade. the walls were nasty dark brown tile that was crumbling off due to old water damage. Pulled off the tile and decided to add the bluboard for a better surface.
Help! I need to finish and get it rented out. thanks-
Edited 8/2/2008 3:30 pm ET by msm-s
Replies
Ooooo. Do you think maybe there's a secret door back there? Some kind of safe roof?
Plantlust - dreaming of a secret treasure & weapons cache...
Peachfest 2008 - with luck, we'll be raided by Homeland Security!
Does a studfinder find anything? Be careful with the screws... could be a bunch of plumbing back there.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
my stud finder doesn't perform well in these older houses with lath and thick plaster. It probably does okay on plain drywall. I usually do just fine by starting in a corner and measuring out approx 16"; I always find the stud after a maximum 3 tries. No luck here though; tried both corners, 12" 14" 16" up down all around ; tried going down from windo frame inside the line outside and nearby. Everywhere I've drilled it hits something that feels like steel girder and even when i lean into the power drill (corded), the screws just spin. I put at least 50 holes in the board(one wall for sure has no plumbing) before I gave up and decided i better get some help.
Edited 8/2/2008 4:15 pm ET by msm-s
Open it up and see what your hitting 12"x12" should do it. Might be buried tile? Just a W A G.
with a sawzall?
cast Iron vent or waste
solidly covering 2 walls 60" x 44"?
That's pretty weird. I'd be tempted to cut a bit, like was suggested, about a 12X12 hole. For all the time it takes, you can easily patch it up with drywall & mud later.Good luck,Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Diamond plate steal used instead of lathes is my bet. Thats what we called them, it is like a mest with diamond shapes holes for the plaster to key into. Have you tryid sheet rock screws made for metal studs??
Yea, sounds like metal expanded lathe.I redid our 1927 bath about two years ago. From floor to 4' up it was tile, 1" cement, metal lathe. A HUGE pain to pull all that out.
"Diamond plate steal used instead of lathes is my bet."
Or worse than diamond lath, is the sheet steel that was often used in bathrooms around that era. Just steel sheet, with slots punched open every 1/2" or so to grip the plaster. Diamond lath is more air than steel, so screwing into/through it usually isn't a problem. The steel sheet is a bit more problematic.
Another possibility that I have seen in old baths is a scratch coat of cement instead of plaster. That can be a beach too.
OP: You can try pre-drilling, but watch out for plumbing/wiring. You may be able to get a better idea of what you're dealing with by poking around in the plumbing access hatch, if you have one.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>>>Or worse than diamond lath, is the sheet steel that was often used in bathrooms around that era.Any idea what the logic was? Why only bathrooms?Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I'm guessing ship-shape waterproof. not a bad idea , but a bit of overkill.Last night i bought masonry bits and concrete anchor screws. was already to come back here and post "Eureka! They work!" after the first try was successful, but it was the only one that went in. (Coincidentally, it was at the top of the drywall on the second wall, which supports the idea that the concrete or steel treatment was only halfway up the wall.)
No further luck with the supposedly heavy-duty concreete bit (and i have used them on concrete before, so i know it takes a bit longer and you have to be patient.) I actually bent one bit from leaning into the drill.It can't be diamind mesh; I've allowed the bit to wander and wiggle so that it would have slipped into a better spot had it been hitting the wrong place. whatever is there is definitely solid.I am going back to slather adhesive up behind it as best possible from the loose lower edge and wedge it against the wall for now. I'll just have to see how it does.
"Any idea what the logic was? Why only bathrooms?"
Dunno. I just know that I've seen it a lot in old bathrooms. If I had to guess, it would be because it's stiffer than diamond lath (Did you ever try to plaster over a flimsy sheet of diamond lath? Dunno how they do it!) and meant to hold a heavier, stiffer base coat than the diamond lath.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>>>(Did you ever try to plaster over a flimsy sheet of diamond lath? Dunno how they do it!)Pffffftt. LOL. Are you kidding? Didn't that stuff disappear with steam locomotion, zoot suits, knob & tube wiring, and 78 RPM records?Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
actually, i bought some of the diamond mesh from HD a few months ago to patch an arched place in the carport of the same house. If the form is framed out well enough, it's brilliant for doing curves.
Here's my guess.
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/structural-terra-cotta.shtmlHard and brittle. Sometimes a hammer drill works, and sometimes it will shatter the block. ''Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.'' Plato
The article you linked to says that terracotta blocks were used in the 20's and 30's, but they are still widely used in Europe.
BruceT
Oh my Gosh, you mean this IS NOT EUROPE....?
Please tell me its the planet EARTH!!!
What am I missing here? I don't understand either of your responses.
BruceT
If it is TC tile, what we usually do is molly-bolt furring to it (it's pretty easy to predict where the voids are) and rock over that.
Jeff
TC = terra cotta?
TC = terracotta.
I'm working on a house w/ c. 1927 mudbed tile wainscot walls. They all have the heavy perforated metal lath mentioned above. I'm posting a photo I found elsewhere of this material, which is identical. the observation of studs elsewhere and the description of this being only so high lend weight to it being the heavy metal rather than terra cotta.
Here's an example of the weight of this material:
View ImageView Image
Jeff
Edited 8/4/2008 11:24 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
My old building, ca. 1927, had been built as a paint store. The back half, used for storage, was done in the sheet metal stuff covered by the hardest plaster I've ever encountered. The metal had slits in it but far fewer than in the previous post. The plaster, which looked like gray portland cement, didn't drill easily with a hammer drill and resisted several hard blows with a sledge hammer. Finally had to pry large pieces off the studs (2 x 6) with a crow bar and break it up by folding. I'm sure I'm not the only one still curious about what's in your wall. I'd use an angle grinder with a 4" diamond blade to cut a window, but first build a "tent" of plastic to enclose the operation and be ready with your vacuum. It'll make a lot of dust.
Your description sounds closest yet, since I have no intention of ripping up that wall at this point in time ;-)(edit to add: the structural terra cotta tile may be more likely, but if you knew how hard i've tried to get through it with various masonry bits with zero progress, you'd know why i'm not sold on clay or even cement by now. As soon as i hit the resistance, i marked the bit with tape to see if it was goin in any further, and it wasn't.)I hate to leave you all hanging, but the dust Troost describes is the main reason why I'm not going to go in there and solve the mystery, at least not now. I'm losing income every day this thing isn't occupied and there's enough other stuff going on in my life that I just can't make more work for myself than absolutley necessary.Last night I went and bought a variety of new bits for drilling metal, glass and concrete/tile and will try those later today. I intend to force adhesive "all up in there" as much as possible and make every effort to get a minimum number of screws in at least around the sides and lower edge, to keep it from popping off the wall.
Edited 8/5/2008 1:07 pm ET by msm-s
Sounds good but sell the property fast.
LOL. It's actually in good shape structurally-- too good, I'd say!
Probably hitting the nail heads that are holding the wood lathe.
Or maybe you're just as lucky as I once was -- perhaps you have a house that was built with hardwood studs. Mine were ash. Seventy year old ash -- you know, the stuff they make ball bats and hammer handles out of.
I had to predrill for most of the nails, let alone screws.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
that's why i tried over 50 times- can't believe every one of those was a nail head. Am quite sure these are excellent hardwood studs, but I've drilled into those before and this feels completely different.
My first thought was tile wainscot. Do screws driven higher up the wall act the same way? I'd cut a small hole someplace inconspicuous, as suggested in an earlier post.
Would there be tile under plaster under tile? What am I saying- this house is over 80 years old and there's no telling what strange stuff has been done in the past. I guess I'll put the masonry blade in the sawzall and crank it up later. thanks all.
Who knows, people do all kinds of things. Maybe they weren't too enthused about ripping out a mud job- type of installation and figured it was easier to just go over it. Does the window jamb seem deeper than ones in the other rooms of the house, suggesting multiple layers? You're going over it anyway,make a small hole to see for yourself.
yea, well I had a similar situation, and discovered that the entire house was built with structural clay tile...damn was that hard stuff....
I re-read carefully - you didn't say *wood* lath - 1925 likely expanded metal lath and you are hitting parts that screws don't want to bite into.
If you can find the stud repeat (s/b +/- 16" o.c.) try predrilling with a fairly small diameter bit until you're sure you're into wood. You might need extra long screws, some of the old plaster/lath could be 1" + thick.
You could have fixed the plaster .....
Jeff
That's what I was trying to say.
He says he tried 50 times, 1 of them should have got thru the expanded lathe.he is saying the screws went in around the window and medicine cabinet. Could be bucks there. elsewhere it's going in about 3/4". sounds like clay block walls that are plastered
Barry E-Remodeler
It would help to know where he lives.
*She* lives in 'the steamy south'
This isn't a 1925 brick exterior is it? They DID use a lot of TC tile in the 20's behind brick.
Jeff
oops, missed that.
Aw, I thought you'd never notice (batting my eyelashes).
I would have loved to just plaster of paris som chinks and holes; even had it ready to mix up before I took the tile off but as i said in my first post: "the walls were nasty dark brown tile that was *crumbling off* due to old water damage. Pulled off the tile and decided to add the bluboard for a better surface." There were old broken, uneven layers of plaster. BTW, i can drill through the plaster with the standard drywall screws. They make a crumbly mess, but they aren't blocked like i described. Much of the plaster was flaking off like shale or efflorescing (sp?) -you can see the "blooming" areas in the pic I took after removing the tile. Completely unstable, that's why i wanted to just cover it all.Some good info all around; thanks everyone. I've never heard of drywall screws for metal studs. will go pick up more bits and some new screws tomorrow.
Edited 8/3/2008 1:16 am ET by msm-s
If you can't find studs then just glue it on. It sound like you have done the best you can so now it is time to just stick it on and let the glue do it's thing.
If it was me I'd rip the lath and plaster. That way you get a chance to not only solve the mystery but also to fix any dry rot that might be there, and to replace your old rusting galvanized pipes before they explode and ruin everything down below.
F
I don't like quick fixes and believe what you propose is absolutely right. Problem is that this property will very likely be sold (by me, to one of 3 possible interested businesses nearby) and torn down in thenear future, so I don't want to pour thousands of dollars into it.Darrel- so NOT what i wanted to hear, but sounds like what I've got...
Would love to hear anyt other tips you might have picked up working on olde houses.Popawheelie- That is probably best thing to do in this case. guess I'll just have to score and remove what hasn't adhered and glue it again. this time though, knowing i can't screw it in, i'll whip out those 3rd arms right away Thanks again, all-
What fredo said on post 25.
It's a real pain, but it's the way to do it.
Some things you can skim over, laminate over and in general cover up with another layer. But with old bathrooms, 'tis best to rip out if there is any kind of damage near the waterworks and start fresh with the new products (cement board, pvc pipe etc) that are better.
Been there done that.
this water damage was from above, if it makes any difference. This is a mediterranean style cement stucco house with a flat roof that had not been cleaned or maintained for years before i bought it. it was like a swimming pool up there and the water came down from above over time. Not heavy damage in the sense of bad rot around and behind the plumbing, but more like the traveling moisture caused the plaster to become unstable.I know that's the best suggestion though- just really don't want to deal with the mess especially if I do sell and it gets demolished. One business has already sent their appraiser in, last week, with my approval and is putting together a bid. I just buffed the floors and this "quick fix" was going to be a one day job before i started showing the darn thing to potential renters...
I suspect you are hitting the exterior wall, which might be solid masonry of some type.
Nope; not going that far in; drill bit is only dusty 2" deep and 1/2 " of that is the new drywall.. Plus this last try was an interior wall backing up to a bedroom. But the exterior wall is definitely concrete stucco.
Edited 8/4/2008 1:42 pm ET by msm-s
Old houses sometimes have a brick and mortar infill between studs. Although I'd be surprised if that were the case on a house from 1925.
Usually that is found on 1800's houses or earlier, at least in NJ.
Rich
it sounds like jimk, fengelman and specifically Darrel are right- It seems that the walls are normal plaster and lath above approx 4' and below that, some sort of impentrable solid mineral substrate- ceramic or metal.I'm still going for a quick fix for now. Will try drilling and using masonry screws, possibly with anchors . i may need to add a "collar of sorts- like a washer? - to hold the bluboard since i'm drilling bigger holes. If I decide to sell the house, I'll let them know exactly what i did and why in case they don't tear it down immediately. The house is in a prime spot for a church and a school to use for parking, so that's why i'm not doing a proper fix up.
In fact, I had just gotten bids from Rebath and Bathfitters when the minister from the church walked over to make his initial pitch to buy it; the Bathfitters truck had just pulled out of my driveway and I'm thinking that the minister saw it and wanted to catch me before i put thousands of dollars into it. I'm only bothering with the bathroom at all because not knowing what their bid is going to be, I need to rent it out for at least one more semester as it's my only income right now, and the walls needed replacing if i want a decent tenant.
Edited 8/3/2008 12:32 pm ET by msm-s
1927 in the south and a stucco house makes it a prime candidate for terracotta tile walls. They just built the tile wall, stuccoed outside and plastered inside. Have you seen any studs?
Jeff
I know the other rooms have studs; I did pull out all plaster and lathe in one room that had bad damage and i used the opportunity to repalce some rotten studs and add insulation before putting up clean drywall.
Could the bathroom have been constructed differently? i tought structurally, studs were necessary during the framing. I haven't seen any but I haven't pulled off the plaster to where I would be able to.
Edited 8/3/2008 1:16 pm ET by msm-s
Take a Hammer hold the skinny end and whack the wall till you can SEE! what is in there. then cover with drywall using glue and/or the appropriate fasteners and the knowledge you know what the heck is going on.
p.s. Whack said wall on the top edge of the affected area between the studs.
the whole area is the affected area.I don't want to whack anywhere, as the same short wall continues and has a different colored tile applied as a tub surround. Ironically, the tub surround wall seems solid and in good enough shape to keep, and I don't want to start problems where they don't exist (yet).
My point is that there is no point in trying to IMAGINE the underlying issue open it up and SEE! Your COVERING it with DRYWALL do it gently with dental picks and a fox tail if you must. Just look at it and you can move forward KNOWING what you face.
I got your point, and it would be good to know. My point is, i don't friggin' care anymore <g> and i for sure don't want to cause a big crack to run into the tub surround where real damage could start. The solutions suggested here will work well enough no matter what's back there. If i did decide to investigate, i'd rather use the sawzall and control the damage.
My point is, i don't friggin' care anymore <g>...
Yeah, but now we do :-)
LOL. I'll make something up.
Cover it all with D-mix.
Cover it all with D-mix.
Uh oh, now you've done it! We may never get the worms back in the can.
I just hope no one asks what D-mix is until after they've spent about 3 hours using the search feature.
(I'm trying to be facetious and serious simultaneously)
"(I'm trying to be facetious and serious simultaneously)"That has gotten me into trouble all my life. But still I plod on...
It was covered with bluboard last night before i posted. Just that I can't get it anchored in except around the top edge and, as of a few hours ago, a vertical along the edge that meets the tub. there's adhesive behind and I've reached the point of no return.
If there is metal lath (no e, please) behind the plaster, you should be able to drive a 16d nail or an awl through it, then put in screws. If it is tile or such, a 1/8" masonry drill will go through easily, but you'll feel when it hits wood.The reason that the tub surround tile is solid may be that it would have a mortar float behind it instead of plaster and a layer of felt behind that, so water would not have affected it much.BruceT
Well, you've certainly sparked some interest with this thread. If you eventually learn what recalcitrant substance lurks behind the plaster, please let us know.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
had that happen a long time ago ; wall was preveously covered in tile covered with drywall , cut a hole check out the layers