Does anyone know what the framers did to this roof? It is completely wrong!! Is there anyway to fix it? Our contractor quit on us and we have been at the mercy of framers and all others who have a role in building. This is our first home, and I am supper sad. The contractor way underbid the job, and was literally in bed with the mortgage company. He was dating the broker! We really got taken for a ride. We have tried to salvage what we could. The framers are long gone. We did not notice the mess up on the roof till we had the shingles out on. Now, I’m afraid it will be too late to try repair it. I cannot figure out what they did wrong!?!? You may have to pull the picture up close to see exactly what I see. It’s almost an optical illusion as to how the roof look on the right hand side. We are having a hard time trusting anyone to look at it because we have had such a horrible experience with everyone that had been involved. I’m ready to just give up!
Replies
How does it compare to the architect's front elevation?
Hi, it’s actually the back of the house. I can show you a drawing depicting how the roof is supposed to look. It actually should have both been draining off into downspouts. So, really the left side is wrong, too, but it looks better than the right!
“[Deleted]”
Hi, thanks for your response. I have added more photos. Sorry, it’s hard to tell from the pics.
The shed roof is actually better than the sales brochure roof in that the sales one would have issues with water deflection where the gable and shed come together. The way it is framed is better because the valley between the gable and shed roof pours out onto the shed. What I would do to fix it is to add more shed roof to the right side so that the taller gable meets the shed properly. There would not be that short, level fascia piece. See red lines on attached pic. Now if the shed needs to be higher to give more light to windows over the back door then that is a whole different issue that would require framing the shed higher like the sales picture.
I see what you are saying that would fix it, or at least allow better drainage. I am just so angry with about how it turned I it and not sure who is responsible. Framers, was the blocks off? We had someone who was supposed to be helping and keeping an eye on things for us. My husband and I work and we cannot be right there.
“[Deleted]”
Thanks for pointing out that we are responsible, but that’s not news! Not once did I say that we were not willing to pay someone to fix it! I am just curious as to WHO failed and how they didn’t know that this was incorrect. Maybe I want to submit a bad review on Angie’s list so to warn others to keep a close eye on the “professionals” as they do their job, a job that they are suppose to know how to do. It’s great to say “take some time off work”, but we do not have that luxury! Somebody has to make the $$ to pay for this disaster! Not everyone can be on their schedule, which really is just whenever they decide to show up and put in a whole day! This is why we hired and payed someone to oversee the framing part of it! Massive fail on his part and ours! The framers were highly recommended and the owner has a good reputation in the area. Our mistake was not moving on site so that we could oversee the progress. Who knew that just regular old folks have to oversee work being done by people who are supposed to know what’s up. I would take charge and this kind of stuff would not happen, but my husband will not let me because he said it’s my fault that then contractor quit. The contractor did not want to be questioned about anything he was doing. He was making decisions and not including us. As soon as I questioned anything, he would become angry. I think he was in over his head and used that as an excuse. We were happy to be rid of him since he was making mistake after mistake. My brother is a project manager and contractor, but he lives far away. He was advising us in what we should be looking for. The roof being added w/ shingles was what caught my eye to this. Before, it just looked like a pile of sticks. If I would have caught this early on, I would have asked questions and tried to stop and get it fixed on the spot. I just wonder if it was the trusses off in some way? Thanks for trying to p*ss me off this morning, but you sir have failed! Lol!
I'd gently suggest that UncleMike42 is trying to help (and I've seen him offer plenty of coolheaded advice on here over the years). It struck me that, based on the elevation picture and the as-built, the framer may have actually been trying to help you, as EstebanG pointed out (the as-built solves some problems the elevation plan looked like would bring about). Unfortunate they may have just not gotten it perfectly lined up (and you now have a couple of suggestions for making it look better without ripping off the whole thing). Good luck!
I appreciate the comments. I am certainly not on here to make enemies, and was hoping to get some advice. Believe me, this has been the most stressful project that I have ever been part of. My husband and I are lucky to still be in speaking terms. We just set out to have a home built. We were not trying to screw anyone over or anything. We tried to trust people, we were deceived. The original contractor severely underbid the cost to build. Of course, the bank appraisal came up to just the amount that he said we needed. He was, literally, in bed with out mortgage broker! They were dating! A bit of info that we learned after the fact. Now we are stuck! That’s why we are having to be our own contractor. We got estimates and they were anywhere from 40,000 (the guy never called us back)-165,000 over the amount that we had! We have done the best we can and it’s just not good enough. We have lost money, sleep and even a beloved family pet while waiting to get this house built. We closed on our construction loan in August 2019!
I would add that there is very little chance of determining any fault in the context of this forum without the plans used by the builder and more detailed photos. In my working life I've encountered two designer/architects who's musings could not exist in the physical world. I've also seen truss companies completely blow it on truss sets.
So, at this point it's a matter of finding a solution you can live with and the builder can provide.
I bid you peace,
I have the plans! I have had them and studied them since we purchased them in August 2018.
“[Deleted]”
Yes, we have the plans. We have measured everything out and it all appears correct. We have been as active with the build as we could be. We just kept trusting the wrong people who didn’t care about the quality of their work as long as they were making money off us. You are just poking at me for no reason. If you only knew what all we have been through over all this, and where we are having to live while this has all been going on, you would just back away. You almost seem to be taking it personally that I am trying to figure out where it went wrong. Again, I would like to know who messed up and how. Why is that a problem for you?
“[Deleted]”
Just stop. You didn’t even have to comment on this post. You could have just passed it right on by. I don’t get why you want to attack me when I only asked for help. Clearly, you have a problem. You are not helping, and are just trying to degrade and be rude about it all.
Oh, and the little jab about my husband being right, I’m assuming about the first contractor quitting. Well, let me just give you a rundown of what that contractor was doing. First, he did not do his homework about the land and how high he would have to go with the block. We went from 4 blocks high to 7. Way over budget right from the get go. He messed up on the footers by not adding the vertical rebar, after telling us he would use it. Then he lied about adding the vertical rebar by drilling and adding epoxy (which we had ordered and it wasn't cheap)after the blocks started going up. He went way over on concrete because he let his crew dig on the wrong side of the marker while doing the footers. We had to pour a whole extra section of concrete, over budget again. He said that we couldn’t have a sink in the garage where the plans called for one, and I had to point out that it wasn’t a sink on the plans that he was talking about, it was the hot water heater! He pointed to extra concrete in the back of the house and said, “this is where your wood burning fireplace will go.” I had to remind him that the back wall was going to be the wall of windows. The GAS fireplace is between the living room and master bedroom. That is only some of the issues we had that sent out red flags. My husband is very busy with other work and does not take charge like he needs to. He wasn’t going to say a word about any of the mistakes. I had to step up and say what needed to be said. Again, he was in over his head, he didn’t know how to read the plans, he underbid and knew that he couldn’t build for the price he gave us! So, he slithered away. Best thing that could have happened to us! We still have still had to build the house. As I said before, we have done the best we can. It’s not easy when you are not from the area and don’t know anyone.
It appears to me that adding about a foot to the right side of the shed roof would fix the problem. It would take a little creative framing but really wouldn't be hard. A good roofer should be able to patch the little roof extension. so that it didn't show. That's my 2 cents worth.
That is exactly what I was after. Some suggestions about how we fix it. Thank you. You have been very helpful.
Maybe I sound a little angry over the roof fiasco! One of your “respected” posters/contributors seems to think so. He never really posted to me with anything but sarcasm, then when I gave a little back, he said I was trolling. I came here because I was desperate for help! Where we live, it’s hard to find anyone to look at a job someone else started. No one wants to clean up the mess of another. Plus, they are super busy building for people who have been presented with a realistic budget, and can afford what they are building. The thing is, we have spent a lot of money so far, and even more will have to be spent to clean up someone else’s mistakes. We are not wealthy people. We do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting in a bank account. I have waited my whole adult life to build a home, not a dream home mind you, just a home that is mine. I am not exaggerating when I say we were taken by the contractor who quit. He advertised that he would “build to suit” then he said he would sell us the land, if we would let him build. We agreed because we loved the property. He lied to us about everything. He led us to believe that he had a license and that he knew what he was doing. Showed us samples of houses he built. Come to find out, his license expired in 2005! We found that out from the state inspector who advised us to report him, which we did. He got a slap on the wrist and was told to stop building for profit. We talked to a lawyer who practically laughed us out of his office and said that it would cost more money to sue him then we could ever recover because he probably didn’t have a “pot to p*ss in.” This is really about how our dream became a nightmare! So, yes I am being picky because this is our money that is being wasted. Yes, I do expect things to be perfect. I am angry over all of this, but I never intended to sound angry at any of you who were offering advice.
“[Deleted]”
I don’t know what state you’re in, but in California small claims has a $10,000 limit. If he was not licensed he has zero defense so you will prevail. I’ve recorded two small claims judgements and let them go when the defendants stopped paying, only to be paid when they tried to sell or buy real estate
Yeah, we live in good ‘ol Tennessee. Apparently, it’s not a big deal to run around building homes and selling them without a license. From what I understand, anyone can build 2 houses/year without a license. You are just not supposed to be building to sell. This guy would build 1 small house/year to sell. He agreed that he would let us pick a plan and build whatever we wanted since we wanted to purchase the land. We tried to check him out as much as we could, and didn’t find anything bad about him. We were new to the area. Since then we have talked to neighbors and other home builders, and we have heard a lot of terrible things about him. We talked to a couple of different lawyers who advised us against taking him to court. My husband’s friend, who practices law in another state, said we should just move on get our house built, then see if there is any recourse. He said we may be better off just letting it go. I am not sure how small claims court works. The thing is, he really didn’t get away with much money. He only got a percentage of the work he completed, which wasn’t much. The problem that we have with him, besides the overages, mistakes and substandard work, is he has gotten us in a financial bind over the cost to build. He told us and the bank that it would cost X amount to build. Had my husband serve as his “secretary” and do up an excel sheet that he dictated the numbers to present to the bank! Not sure what that was about other than he was too lazy to do it himself. We were trying to be helpful so we could get the wheels in motion. Then, we got our loan based on those numbers that he gave us. The bank had an “independent” appraiser that came in exactly the same (don’t get me started on the bank). Once he quit, we were fine with that, except we had X amount of money and couldn’t find anyone who came even close with their bids. So we were advised to try and do it ourselves. We didn’t have a choice. He really backed us in a corner. The bank knew he didn’t have a license because after all this, we saw emails back and forth between the mortgage broker gf and her superiors about his license, that we were never privy to. We got them from the state of TN where they reviewed our complaint. He had submitted them as proof that the bank was aware of his license situation. The gf is no longer his gf, and is no longer with the mortgage company. She is branch manager at another company! I am not educated about how banks work or how the real estate and builders market works, but all this sounds shady as heck to me. Oh, and wanted to add that we got our paperwork back from him and our names were on the permits, complete with my hubby’s name forged on the back!
You need to get on with the fix that EstabanG and myself have suggested. It should not prove that difficult. Good luck to you and your husband. Hopefully the fix will take some of the bitter taste out of your mouths.
Mike
Exactly! The whole mess was just my attempt to explain some of the anger that I may be expressing. Bottom line is that we just want our house built. We are just sick of being screwed over by everyone we have had contact with. Are there any honest home builders out there? My brother is one, but he is so busy and so far away and cannot help. I am sure there are plenty of others, but we really haven’t met any of them so far! Having limited funds doesn’t help. Thanks for to your help and support! I appreciate you and EstabanG more than you know!
Sorry you are having such a hard time with this house build.
Let me start over, and see if I can engage and not add to your anger.
https://houseplans.co/house-plans/1144b/ Is this the plan? Looks like you have put in a few changes from that shown.
Can you upload the detailed .pdf files?
Some photos looking up at the porch roof framing from close to the house would help too.
https://media.houseplans.co/cached_assets/images/house_plan_images/1144Bmn_1200x900fp.png
Looking at this detail, it would seem that there is a difference in where the higher sloped roof will intersect the lower slope shed roof over the porch on either side.
The shop/garage on the left side looking from the back, is farther to the rear of the house than the back of the great room. they also have different dimensions, so the intersection of the peaked roof details to the shed roof will vary from each other.
it could be that the rooflines are built as close to the print as could be, and that the design is just not as well thought out as it could be.
it will take a closer look to see if there is a specific error to isolate.
Thank you for your effort. It takes a lot to make me angry! ? Yes sir, those are the plans. It is a Mascord design. No changes were made to the floor plan other than the window shapes in the great room, and we opted for no transom windows over the front and back door. No door coming out of the garage to the back porch. I don’t believe that would have changed anything with the roof. My pictures are not that great. I will have to try and take some more. I am not sure how to upload the pdf. I think the file is too big.
Here is a crude model of the back porch roof area based on what I could tell from the low res plans. Let me know if you think it's a fair representation.
You can see there are some issues on either side of the 4:12 porch roof.
This may not show well here as the forum uses such tiny images.
Let me offer an opinion.
expanding on 2sheps' model, the framing of the shed roof will dictate that additional support on each side needs to be added to carry the plane of the shed roof to where it will intersect the peaked roof sections and make a valley.
these valleys will end up with a dogleg part way down, where the slope changes from the steeper part to where the shed roof intersects.
The plans do not seem to reflect this change of slope in the right place. (there might be a general or specific note someplace that covers this, to let the plan folks off the hook)
This is a very complicated roof design. There are three different slopes, and many intersections.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/finehomebuilding.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2021/02/18193816/BAE08D80-9F6D-4869-8956-FAB87C841155-300x300.jpeg
Changes which could have led to this valley exiting the rear of the house instead of on to the shed roof include the following:
--Foundation of the porch could be in the wrong place
--elevation of the outside end of the porch roof could be off
--elevation of where the shed roof meets the main roof at the top could be off
--dimension of the sides of the porch roof overhang past the foundation can be off.
--plans call for 2x6 @two ft centers for the porch shed roof. upsizing of these rafters would make the roof higher.
--the location or elevation of the peaked roof over the dining room can be off
--the extension of the peaked roof at the rear of the house (overhang) can be off.
It does look like the roof runs downhill all the way to the edge of the roof, and unless someone knows of a section of the building code I am unaware of, it seems like it is not against code. (assuming the underlayment at the valleys and shingle installation is proper)
Here is a little better detail from the roofing sheet of the print set
There is a note that says, "Cricket as required" (I think this translates into, "you need more stuff here to make sure water runs downhill off the roof, and not into your kitchen")
This would seem to leave it to the roofer to make it work, however the framing crew might have taken steps to help.
the plans also show a downspout in the corner where the water comes as it is built, so one option would be to call the gutter folks and ask them what they think.
Okay, I did a little more work on the model from the plans posted. If this is correct, the porch roof is indeed troubled. The framer may have been able to do something else but the root cause appears to be in the original design. Keep in mind I couldn't read a single dimension and all this is based on the garage door being 16 feet wide. The overall building dimension I guessed was 69'. Perhaps the owner can say how close this is.?.
She sent me a copy of the plans, I can e-mail them to you if you like. (for discussion purposes)
Here are a couple extracted images. Will see if the .png is better than the .jpg
We've just had this thread brought to our attention and are reaching out to the original poster directly to offer help and advice with the issues discussed here.
Please delete the copy of the construction drawings in your possession, and refrain from distributing them to unlicensed parties.
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EDIT - Mike, I'm adding on here in reply to your post below.. (for some reason there's no "reply" button there, I have no idea why that is..? )
As long as they're deleted now, we're all good. :) I was responding the post above where you offer to email full documents elsewhere.
For how it's supposed to work - Per the design, the shed roof is above the other roof planes, with the roof extending over the porch maintaining ceiling height. As noted elsewhere, there are indeed crickets installed to maintain a drainage plane, which collect water in the gutter system. Your translation "to make sure water runs downhill off the roof, and not into your kitchen" is correct and relates to the entire roof system. :D It looks like the framer has lowered the porch ceiling height and changed the whole roof detail at the rear, which we're looking at to help the home owner. Cheers!
EDIT 2: Mike, I still can't reply to this particular comment thread - there's no reply button like there are on other comments, but also honestly don't want to get into lengthy discussions on shed roof details and how different material scenarios work - I am only responding to this forum thread at all because someone pointed me to a customer in distress and I thought that directing them to our support staff and offering designer input on the field changes that have been made might help. People often think that buying a plan is where support ends, and that's not the case.
I will be happy to do so. The only use was to help your client answer her questions. The only distribution was the images posted here of relevant extracts.
Could you do us a favor, and post here how the rear porch roof is supposed to join the other roofing details on this design?
Thanks for the reply. I think we tried to be respectful of your intellectual property rights while helping your customer.
In the spirit of helpful comments, can I ask a few questions about the roof plan?
Why does the fold line at the top of the lower slope shed roof not extend to the valleys on each side of the shed roof fold line? (Instead of the separate fold line shown half way down the valley of the 10/12 pitch segment near the cricket comment) See red lines in the modified detail attached.
Similarly, why is the valley line not drawn to indicate the intersection to the 4/12 shed roof, which would change the angle of the valley at the fold line, (similar to the illustration of the cricket fold line, but further up the roof)? See blue detail in modified detail attachment.
Why is the cricket note singular, rather than plural? (Crickets rather than cricket)
Are there some roofing material choices which would be better served by having a gable edge on the sides of the 4/12 porch shed roof where it extends over the higher sloped main roof? (Which could explain why these details seem to be under-specified.)
The plans have a note that says, "Cricket as req'd" pointing at the side of the porch roof.
I tried to zoom into the phone image of the plans.
Higher resolution versions would be helpful
See if those are better.
A little better, but still cannot read the notes or dimensions.
if you have the .pdf on a windows laptop or desktop, perhaps you can open the set and print a single page (using the print to pdf printer) or take a higher resolution screen shot.
From adobe acrobat reader, you can take a snapshot (from the edit menu) and then paste into word, which will then let you save as a .jpeg. from there you might be able to get a higher resolution file to share here.
it will take being able to share a higher resolution version of the plans to see if enough detail was specified in the plans. If not, it would have been up to the judgement of the framers to make it work.
have you verified that the rear porch foundation is in line with the interior walls?
Send me an email and I’ll mail you the entire pdf.
I sent you an e-mail, so you can edit previous and delete the e-mail if you are inclined to do so.
Man, this is one of those threads that should have had a Chapter 2.
And since Taunton thinks not keeping track of a “New” post to a thread, this one you have to slowly scroll down to find the new one.....and by that time you forget the post number.
Has anyone asked where this house is located? Might be worth a day trip.
I'm a little late getting in on this, however, since you're using a plan, I'd be reaching out to the company who supplied them - they have a vested interest in being sure the plans they supply can be built
did a quick search for Mascor design and found this - wouldn't
hurt to reach out to him/them and see it they can provide a solution to the problem that happened to "their design" - I have had to make a lot of phone calls for a lot of "other people's problem" - I make a list of what I need to get clarification on and try to hold the voice on the other end to that issue, so when they say "other people whatever, I point out that other people don't matter, I have "this problem"
any chance you have construction insurance or some kind of insurance on your loans?
good luck - I hope things work out for you
Address
Alan Mascord Design Associates, Inc.
2187 NW Reed St #100
Portland, OR 97210
Phone
(800) 411 0231
(503) 225 9161
https://houseplans.co/contact-us/
Thank you. Yes, I have thought about contacting them. I’m not sure that they can or will help, but it would certainly be worth a shot!
HI! Thankfully a thoughtful poster dropped us a line through our contact page and brought our attention to your issue. First, let me say I'm sorry you're having such heart-ache with your home construction project. We hate to see customers in distress. Second, let me also say we are available on the phone any time - you can call us with questions - ask to speak with James (our support guy) - he's usually busy helping contractors with engineering questions but will respond I promise... I've found your contact details through our records and will have him contact you directly to both let you know how it should have worked, as well as suggest a fix that is both practical and aesthetically pleasing.
I'd ask you to please not email anyone copies of construction drawings unless they are directly hired by yourself in the process of constructing your home.
We'll be in touch shortly..
(if your contact details have changed since 2018 please email myself - [email protected] - and let me know your updated info). We'll help as much as we can!
Hi, all the contact information should be exactly the same as it was when we purchased. My husband can speak with you anytime. This has been a mess for us, for reasons other than the house design. We would appreciate any thoughts or fixes that you can come up with.
Thanks. Please look for an email (I think its your husband we have info for), and remember we're here to help any time :) The original home designer has reviewed your "as built" photographs to help with suggestions to mitigate the framing that is actually in place, and James has your contact info and will be contacting you to answer questions on what the design intent was, vs what has been framed. Hope that helps! Please don't feel alone in your construction process - it's heartbreaking to hear your problems with your contractor. We're here to support you. :)
I have a few new pics to add.
I'm not a homebuilder--I build rustic furniture and fancy dog crates, and am an avid DIYer--but even I can see the problems with that roof design. I wonder why they did it that way? Why not just have the roof slope down to @ the wall, and then extend to the end of the porch at a lesser angle (perhaps modifying the entire slope of the rear roof, if the angle would then be too shallow for shingles/code)? It looks like the original design has created two little pools on either side of the shed (porch) roof.
I agree that the framers were probably trying to fix the problem. I'd be on the phone with the plan company asap. I'm not seeing anything about a guarantee, and they say you should reach out to them about problems *before* you start building, but it's still worth seeing what they have to say and if they have any help or support to offer.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I've been looking at house plans on these sites (briefly, off and on, but never really considered buying--I'm just looking for ideas) for a while, and it never occurred to me that they might have issues like this, so I can imagine it not occurring to you, either. I truly hope you can resolve this, or live with it, and move on so you can movie *in* soon.
For sure, not all plans that you find online are the same quality. We stand behind our designs 100% and would like to assure you that we offer support before and during construction to help make sure construction details such as these are fully understood by all involved in the construction process.
Ha, I bought a set of "plans" on Ebay a while back for like $3.00; I knew they wouldn't be high quality or anything at that price, but I figured at the least they might give me an idea of what plans actually look like/how to read and draw them (for applying for permits to build a storm shelter/guest cottage/workshop on my own property), and at the most they might be really useful in terms of details etc.--possibly even buildable with a little work.
I was wrong! They were literally just floor plans. No framing details, no plumbing, no electrical, no HVAC, no foundation plan, no roofing plan, nothing. Just front & rear elevations and a floor plan. The included "AutoCAD file" was not readable in any CAD (or compatible) program I tried.
But hey, for $3 I got some nice drawings of a cute little cottage, for inspirational purposes, and a reminder about getting what I paid for on Ebay!
Thank you for the reply. I'm glad to know you offer support throughout the process, and it's nice to see your replies here.
Have a great day.
I'm not sure what you expected for $3 on Ebay - but would encourage anyone to buy construction plans from a reputable design company and not some kid in a basement ripping people off $3 at a time selling images they have found online.
Just wondering if you saw my post #51
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/forum/help-framers-ruined-roof#comment-1277484
“[Deleted]”
"I'm not sure what you expected for $3 on Ebay - but would encourage anyone to buy construction plans from a reputable design company and not some kid in a basement ripping people off $3 at a time selling images they have found online."
Wow.
What I expected, as I said (pretty clearly, I thought), was something not exactly buildable or high-quality, but just something to satisfy my curiosity and give me an idea or two. The sellers were obviously not American (or speakers of English as a first language), so again, I didn't expect much, which is why I only bid $3 in the first place.
I don't consider that I got "ripped off," since I am not as stupid as you apparently think I am, but thank you just the same for turning my friendly, "You're right, not all plans online are high quality! Here's a funny little story about a time I willingly gave up $3 just to see what I would get, as an illustration of your point!" comment into a chance to insult me.
Your reply to me certainly did have the intended effect, though; I now definitely know more about where not to buy plans online, when the time comes, so thank you for that.
Again, I hope you have a good day.