I’ve got a walkout basement, so the exterior wall is framed with 2×4’s and sits atop a concrete footing. The footing bumps into the basement, and will thus need to be addressed when finishing the room.
I’m going to build a halfwall to cover the bump out, and add some flair to the room. My question is how you guys would build this half wall to get around the bump. Should I consider PT because it’s sort of against the ground? Look over the “before and after” drawings I threw together and let me know how you all would do this…
thanks!
Justin Fink – FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Replies
You need a PT plate for the top of the footing where the bottom of the studs hit.
If not any moisture will get sucked up by the studs and rot them. Capilary action.
Get with the 90's now that they're gone, and frame it all in metal- then you don't need "PT" anything. Seriously- I don't know why anyone would frame a basement with wood anymore- just lugging all the material down there is enough reason to not do it in wood.
Bob
if your point for using steel studs is simply to avoid moisture rot....don't forget moisture can also rust.
I've seen it. so one still needs to take the appropriate measures.
I believe you might have some other things in mind for promoting steel stud use aside from the rot issue, such as the way the wall is built and the straightness issue...and of course you dont like lugging 2x4's :)
Edited 10/3/2006 9:21 pm ET by alrightythen
Steel studs can rust, but they are galvanized. If you had steel studs rust imagine what the wood framing would have done. I saw it once on Mike Holmes or the I make up my code as I talk show.
Have a good day
Cliffy
mike holmes hates steel studs in basements .....says they rust . I've seen him say that on more than one occasion.
whether wood or steel, the appropriate building practices need to be employed.
Edited 10/3/2006 10:18 pm ET by alrightythen
In later episodes he say he does not like them on exterior walls. In an almost illiterate fashion he tries to explain he is concerned with thermal bridging because of steels high thermal conductivity. If he had half a brain he could figure that one out. Then I think in the same episode they show some of their steel stud work. You or I might have to go after him with an HGTV film crew to do it right! Did you see the episode where he used Andy Engels basement method (rigid foam on floor and wall) and passed it off as his latest invention?
Are your Canucks going anywhere this year?
Have a good day
Cliffy
you already read my thoughts on the canucks in the " drain tile for stepped foundation" :)
was watching TSN tonight they had Brian burke from Aneheim and Dave Nonus here in Vancouver on. guy says to Dave....SO the latest polls says the Canucks will miss the playoffs again....
guess that means were going all the way.
if there was another Alberta team I'd say it would be their turn to be ing the final.
Oops about asking you twice about the Canucks again. I'm asking everybody lately about the season, it starts tonight and my wife and two girls are already tired of it. I know for sure that the Hardy Bullets will have a lot of fun, drink a few beer and enjoy their season in the Onaping Old Man Hockey League. Training camp has already begun. Did you see Tie Domi on TSN? Like his departure from the Leafs will help their cause. I'm going to watch Pittsburg a little closer this year, with Crosby and the new Russian kid they may win a few.
Have a great day !
Cliffy
PT sole plate; Vycor over then steel studs.
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Very cool drawing; looks like a FineHomebuilding image. What program you running?
Carl
sketchup - free download http://sketchup.google.com/
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
At first looking at the pic I almost though just burn the floor space but then when I saw your notched out studs . . . make it bookcases. That bottom will get covered by trim, and they can have something useful there.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I like your thinking...unless it doesn't work for the spot..bookcase would be a nice way to go.
The idea is similar to your bookcase thought Randal - except she wants a deep shelf running along that entire wall so that can put stuff up there. It will be beadboard on the lower half. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
That looks fine....There's more than one way to skin a cat. ( but with a plate)
what I might do is rather than use all those 2x8's, is ledger against the back wall and 3/4" shelf with blocking, or use your 2x8 ( alot of times it depends what I have on site) then stud down with 2x4 on flat to a ripped PT plate.
if need be, short 1x4 or 2x4 braces scabbed to the sides of front wall and back wall studs to stiffin it up.
I agree with what the others say about steel studs, they are the way too go even if Andy Engel prefers wood. I would frame the wall up with 2 1/2 steel and then do a cantilevered shelf out the top ( around 40 inches or whatever height is practical) so you can display all your wife's favourite things, pictures, etc on it.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Nice drawings. You do that at the office, LOL?
I'd skip the framing completely and build a glass block wall on top of and flush with the face of the footing. Use corner blocks to turn it back to the main wall on the sides and the top. You might have to play with where you place the plane of the wall to make the top and sides hit the outer wall just so.
Hide a computer-controlled cold-light panel behind it and you can download those 'visualisations' for Windows Media Player to play on it while you listen to Iron Butterfly on headphones....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
"on top of and flush with face of footing".....
so what does he do with the front face of footing exposed like that?
Tile mosaïc.
View ImageDinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
oic
I'm not into glass block, (too 80's for me) would it be opaque? would he have to put something behind them to hide the stud wall?
I have seen them before, just can't recall how huch you see thru them.
Edited 10/4/2006 1:36 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 10/4/2006 10:55 am ET by alrightythen
You're insane T.H. - lolJustin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
You're insane T.H. - lol
What? You don't like Iron Butterfly??
Still, I'm not insane enough to waste money to frame it with metal or PT.
Just go ahead and use standard framing lumber; that's what I'd do. If you're really worried about moisture in the concrete being sucked up into the plates, lay a strip of felt under 'em before you Ramset¯ them down.
Untreated SPF plates laid on concrete do not rot--nor do they degenerate from contact with the dry alkalai in portland cement--unless there is a substantial water problem on an ongoing basis, something you would have mentioned in your proposal had it existed. (Not to mention the fact nobody in his right mind would try to finish a basement with a water problem severe enough to rot ordinary framing.)
I don't know where architects got the habit of specifying PT for all concrete-contact framing, but I don't see it as having any basis in reality except under the special conditions stated above. My guess is most architects simply want to cover their posteriors in case the foundation is not properly drained. Such an attitude (if not the solution chosen) is fine as far as it goes...but you know if you have a continual water problem; you're not guessing.
Granted, a single flooding incident--100-year floods; HWT leak; washing-machine hose blowout--can occur in any bottom-level space if the floor drain(s) can't handle the volume, but wood framing dries out quite nicely once the gyprock is stripped off...which it will have to be no matter what kind of framing you have. Spruce does not rot or die just from getting wet. The possibility of a one-time flood is not sufficient reason to put poison inside your home--especially in a location where if the PT framing catches fire, the poisonous fumes will rise to the living quarters by convection.
In fire-fighting school, the prof used to call that kind of smoke 'Methyl-ethyl-badsh!t'....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
>>>"I don't know where architects got the habit of specifying PT for all concrete-contact framing, but I don't see it as having any basis in reality except under the special conditions stated above"It's code here in the US to use treated plates in contact with concrete. I'm not saying it's necessary, but it's correct.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"It's code here in the US to use treated plates in contact with concrete. I'm not saying it's necessary, but it's correct."Jon,What do you guys do with basement stairs?Do you build all your stairs where your from or do you have stair companies?We have stair companies here. Framers don't make stairs. Sometimes a basement step.My point is that every basement stair I've ever seen is made out of pine and sit right on top of concrete. Any set of basement steps that I've seen built from 2x material was always doug fir.If you have stair companies that make pine steps, do you stick snow&ice on the bottom or something else so that the bottom of the basement steps aren't in direct contact with the concrete?If you make your own steps, do you nail a piece of pt down first and then cut out the bottom of the stringers to sit on top of the pt?Joe Carola
I do all the stairs for my houses, and cut the stingers for a PT plate on the floor.
It gives me a spot to nail my joist hangers onto, once the hangers are nailed I slide the stringers into them.
Another benefit is extra nailing for the bottom of the first riser. Always seemed flimsy without it in there.
stringers resting on concrete slab gets a piece of building paper or gasket slipped under. easy no problems.
I think what people are not talking about is that PT is for wood in direct conatct with concrete. If you read your quote you got it right Joe , "contact " implies direct contact.
we also all use sill gasket all the time for common lumber, c'mon guys I know you all know this.
unless thing are completely different where all you guys are than where I live.
Edited 10/5/2006 7:40 pm ET by alrightythen
Edited 10/5/2006 7:41 pm ET by alrightythen
I'm with you, chum. Gasket is easy and cheap, and if you don't have any on the truck, 6-mil poly or even a strip of window plastic will do. Why bother farting around with PT. Here's a question for the PT users...How are you fastening to your SPF?? Using reg framing nails or ACQ rated? Just another little detail that doesn't come into play if you use an isolation membrane.
"Good Enough" is NOT good enough.
good call on the fasteners
We almost always build the basement stairs. All lumber contacting concrete slabs are PT, as per IRC2003 R319.1. To achieve this, I usually cut my bottom riser 1-1/2" short and use a ramset to fasten a 2x6 or 2x8 PT plate.If we did use manufactured stairs for the basement, I would either plan for the same rise allowance, or just cut them on site. I'm sure tar paper or I&W shield would work fine, we just haven't used that.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"If we did use manufactured stairs for the basement, I would either plan for the same rise allowance, or just cut them on site. I'm sure tar paper or I&W shield would work fine, we just haven't used that."Jon,I would never cut the bottom of premade stairs, I would rather put snow/ice or Vycor or soomething else if it was needed.Every set of stairs I've installed over the past 20 years and still install, and every set of stairs I've seen installed always sits right on the concrete. I have never seen a time where an inspector failed the stairs for being in direct contact with the concrete.I agree with you that since its code for any wood in direct contact with concrete has to be PT and I use PT, but how come it passes inspection and how come every set of stairs 20-30-40 years old that sits on concrete has no problems?If moisture gets into a doug fir 2x4 shoe, how come it doesn't get into a pine stringer and ruin that?I've also been in many many basements before that I've worked on where the re's no PT for a shoe and not one problem with them.One inspector told me four years ago that PT was not required on a basemnet slab, but yet I've seen them fail someone for not doing so.
Joe Carola
To answer your questions, I really don't know why there are not more problems with non-PT lumber contacting slabs.I'm very curious as to how things work and understanding the real mechanics of things as opposed to just relying on "that's how we've always done it".Ultimately, my goal is to complete the project in a manner that is both correct (in the sense of doing what is needed whether or not the code speaks about it) and satisfied the code. I find that using PT wood in contact with concrete is the easiest way to achieve my objective.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Joe,It seems to me that the reason the basement stairs don't typically rot away is due to the following several factors:1) The stairs finish on the slab near the center of it, not at the edge near a footing. If the slab is done over poly or even gravel, the moisture has to wick a long way to reach the stairs, and the whole slab can dry to the basement.2) The stairs themselves are open to the air on all sides, so they can dry quickly if they get wet. Sill plates are often wedged tightly with insulation, etc.3) The stairs are the same temperature as the rest of the basement. The sill plate will often be colder than the foundation, inviting condensation.Bill
>>It seems to me that the reason the basement stairs don't typically rot away is due to the following several factors:1) The stairs finish on the slab near the center of it, not at the edge near a footing. If the slab is done over poly or even gravel, the moisture has to wick a long way to reach the stairs, and the whole slab can dry to the basement.2) The stairs themselves are open to the air on all sides, so they can dry quickly if they get wet. Sill plates are often wedged tightly with insulation, etc.3) The stairs are the same temperature as the rest of the basement. The sill plate will often be colder than the foundation, inviting condensation.Bill,What about the stairs that are right up against the foundation wall and land on the slab next to it that I've installed?What about the shoe on the walls that fall in the center of the slab or the walls that surround the stairs that is right next to the stairs that are nailed into them?The shoe that sits on the slab is right next to the stringer the sits on the slab.It doesn't make sense to me. We have walls all over basements, right next to the block and in the middle of the slab and the shoe is required to be PT but yet the stairs made out of pine can sit right on the concrete and never have problems.What about the many basements that I've worked on before where there was doug fir sitting right on the concrete and also the stairs right on the concrete that have nothing wrong with them?I’ve never seen any problems with material other than PT in basements before.What about the stairas that are no open on all sides and surrounded by walls?
Joe Carola
It doesn't make sense to me. We have walls all over basements, right next to the block and in the middle of the slab and the shoe is required to be PT but yet the stairs made out of pine can sit right on the concrete and never have problems.
Joe, are you complaining that the code is wrong or that the code is not enforced?
You are a pretty staunch supporter of doing it "right". In this case, I think it's "right" to use PT against concrete because that's what the code says. Maybe the inspectors let the basement stairs slide because they know that how "it always is", or maybe they just don't notice it. Just because they don't enforce it doesn't mean it complies with the code.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>Joe, are you complaining that the code is wrong or that the code is not enforced?>>You are a pretty staunch supporter of doing it "right". In this case, I think it's "right" to use PT against concrete because that's what the code says. Maybe the inspectors let the basement stairs slide because they know that how "it always is", or maybe they just don't notice it. Just because they don't enforce it doesn't mean it complies with the code.Jon,I'm complaining that it doesn't make sense for an inspector to fail a shoe that is not PT and let stairs 1/2" away pass. so I will say that I'm complaining that the code is not enforced. How can they not notice the stairs sitting directly on concrete in thousands and thousands of houses?I'm all about doing things right. It's just that some of the codes don't make sense when the inspectors don't even follow it.Also I don't think that you need PT on basement slabs even though I use them because I've never seen a problem when PT wasn't used.As far as stairs go and if I have to set them, I will set them directly on the concrete just like I've been doing for 23 years and if for some strange reason an inspector fails it then I will slide something underneath it. To me, is it the right way to do it, I don’t see a problem doing it that way because no one has ever proven it to fail, nor have I've ever seen it fail. Is it the wrong way to do it, to me, no? Is it not following code, I don’t know, I don’t have a code book but is has certainly passed code in ever single house or addition I’ve ever set stairs in.I brought this up before and now because I think it’s interesting that people will say that you need PT in basements because the moisture will get to the would that comes in contact with concrete but yet no one around my area seems to worry about stairs coming in contact with concrete and there’s never a problem with moisture in the stringers and they’re not PT.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/6/2006 4:45 pm ET by Framer
"One inspector told me four years ago that PT was not required on a basemnet slab, but yet I've seen them fail someone for not doing so."
did it have in floor heating? if it has radiant heating you don't need PT or gasket, regualr lumber directly on slab is fine.
Alos who knows with some of these inspectors - one guy tells you one thing, another tells you something completely different.
Ya know for what it's worth you may never find a set of stringers in a basement that has started to rot.... bUt.....there may be that one time where theres enough moisture to cause some problems...slipping some paper or gasket inbetween will not hurt and it sure doesn't take long.
It's code here in the US to use treated plates in contact with concrete.
And I wouldn't be surprised to learn the new version of the NBCC has the same idiotic specification...but I'm not gonna pay the Queen's Printer another c-note+ to find out, LOL.
Framer and the boys took this one to town about stairs so I won't bother going there. But I will say that just because something is 'code' doesn't make it right. (And I know you know that, 'cuz you're no dummy.)
What infuriates me about code writers is that half the time, they're relying on computer modeling to tell them what will work in the real world (when any carp could tell them it won't); and the other half the time they're worrying about covering their arses and obliging us to take unnecessary and even dangerous measures so they can't be blamed for not being careful enough.
If I told you to frame and sheath a 4/12 roof in serious snow country with rafters on 24" centers sheathed with 3/8" OSB, would you do it?
I don't think so.
But that's in the code...just like the requirement to use PT in every concrete contact situation.
In my young and impressionable days I thought Code was the Word of God. Now I find so much stupid, senseless crap in there that it makes me wonder about the validity of the rest.
I suppose that, looked at in one way, it's really a good thing: it obliges me to think for myself, since I know I cannot depend on the Code to give me the 'right' answer....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What infuriates me about code writers is that half the time, they're relying on computer modeling to tell them what will work in the real world (when any carp could tell them it won't); and the other half the time they're worrying about covering their arses and obliging us to take unnecessary and even dangerous measures so they can't be blamed for not being careful enough.
I agree with you to a point, but I can also appreciate the enormous task of compiling the rules for all building practices while not forcing people to waste resources by overbuilding. I think Tim Mooney would agree that, for the most part, the code is beneficial and we are better off for it.
Now don't get me started on inspectors who insist you to do things that are NOT code. That really burns me up...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
for the most part, the code is beneficial and we are better off for it.
The idea of a building code as a set of minimum standards for structural and fire safety is not bad in itself. And it can be valuable as a reference work, too: For instance, I appreciate having the snow-load and other meteorological data collected in tabular form, because it is impractical for me to collect that much information on my own. I also appreciate having span tables in there that save me the trouble of doing the calcs myself...but I'd appreciate them a whole lot more if there weren't anomolies like the roofing scenario I mentioned earlier to make me wonder how good those tables really are.
The problem with stuff like Official Codes enforced by governmental authority is that as soon as one gives gubbermint weenies an inch, they take a mile...and they wander 'way off track with it, too. There is stuff in there that is 'safety related' only by the longest stretch of the imagination...a 'one-in-a-million' possible bad result that some bow-tie-wearing desk jockey thinks is serious enough to warrant obliging the other 999,999 structures to be built in a way that makes no economic or structural sense.
I think the 'tests' applied to Code regulations should be stricter. The code writers should be required to prove 'probable substantive harm' and not just 'possible potential danger' before being allowed to forbid something.
Hah. Ya didn't think Justin Fink asking how to frame a decorative stub wall in his basement could possibly turn political? Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Rather than notch the studs (maybe someone said this already?) depending on the front to back distance of the footing to the existing wall, use studs that are that width or less, put them on a plate of PT and then slap flat 2x4's on the front of each stud that hang down and don't quite touch the floor. I don't have a program to draw this for you--hope it makes sense.
What you're saying makes sense, but the footing is only 5 inches deep. 2x4 is too small, 2x6 would need to be ripped. So I figure why not just get a 2x8 and notch it.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I was thinking there would really be no reason for the new wall to have studs that completely fill the depth (front to back)--wouldn't need to touch the exiting wall at the back except for support and that would be provided at the top by either an appropriately sized (5" in this case) top plate, or even better would be a 2x6 horizontal strap nailed to the back top of the new wall before it is placed on the footing. Then nail that strap to the studs of your existing wall. That would also give you a bit of a thermal break (probably also unnecessary).
You basically are onto the same Idea I had with 2x4's on flat. 'cept I think you have an "L" shape formation give some ridgidity to the flat studs.
not sure hwo tall the wall is, if it's just a short guy then he might not need em, but if it's getting taller than say...maybe 3' or 3-6' then go with your "L" formation, or cleat to the back wall at mid point as I suggested, to use up those shorts we all have laying around.
I'd frame a 2x3 wall in front of the bump out using a treated plate and then run kickers back to the already framed wall for bracing..
You mentioned putting a bookcase there, why not just box out the footing, put a finish piece on the face and build your book cases as units installed on top of that?
then you could also justify that festool saw.
and FYI... words like "flair" make you sound like a designer who pitches for the other team....
unless of course you meant "flare" in the gunner sense of "I shat that ##### in the chest with a flare gun"
Cag - your idea would work well for a bookcase design, but it's not going to be a bookcase, so it can't be so deep.
You're right about the flair thing...what was I thinking? by the way, I'm pretty sure I can find some excuse in this project to buy that festool...Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
Justin,How about just building a low step, boxed in trim wood? You could set stuff on it (plants, shelves, shoes, whatever) or not. The options for a wall or shelves would then remain open for later.A half wall could also have a hinged top that opens to reveal a hopper for art folios, cookie sheets, or other large flat objects.Bill