Well, here we go! For some time my lady and I have been in the design process and then submitted the plans to our GC for a 1800sq ft, single level 2 bedroom and den open plan with 2 car attached garage and hip roof. He just came back with a qoute that is only, but critically, 10% over our top limit. It’s a rather special house though so we’re reluctant to forego building it but are well aware that actual rarely, if ever, comes in under budget. We had hoped to leave ourselves some cushion $ but now that’s gone. So, how could we reduce costs? The GC and us have already discussed using 35 year architectural shingles in place of the 50 yr we speced, carpeting in the 2 bedrooms and den rather than hardwood (maple) through out, a cheaper form of Gutter Guard, me building the kitchen cabinets. Offsetting that we want to upgrade, a la FHB, his usual insulation approach. Are there other things we should consider and are there web sites out there where one can get good quality lighting, or whatever, at appreciable discount? Anyone have experience with Marvin Windows Intergrity line? What would be somewhat equivalent but cheaper? All suggestions short of “give up” are welcome.
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Any item that can easily be changed later is a candidate for saving $$$. Lighting fixtures lead the list, floor coverings, kitchen countertops, window/door or base trim, even faucets if you can change them yourself (no savings to have a plumber come back). Doors are also easy to upgrade later. How about not finishing the xtra bedroom? Tile on walls in baths (except tub) can also be added later.
I would not skimp on, or delete, any thing that would be difficult, expensive, or impossible to add/upgrade later. This includes sq footage of the house, windows, insulation, stud sizes, electrical (in the walls), exterior trim or finishes.
Q Just how much will be saved by going from a 50 yr shingle to a 35 yr. All the same labor$$. Is it really worth it?
I would tend to agree with last post, dont skimp on things like good quality windows, you dont want to have to replace them in 3-8 years, its not just window cost, but also trim inside and out... a lot of labor and expensive materials. Marvin makes a good window.
Stairs.
If you really wanted to chomp the price, and you are capable of cabinets, why dont you get a quote for frame, roof, and siding, and you GC, and finish the rest.
It's hard to make any specific suggestions without seeing a blueprint.
Backing off on the shingles is a good idea. You want to make sure the "unchangeables" are done right, but stuff like shingles can be upgraded when you re-roof your house.
Cutting down on kitchen cabinets runs along the same thought line - You can add more or remodel later.
There are dozens of other possibilities, like:
Lowering roof pitches
Reducing window sizes and/or numbers
Losing square footage
Less expensive light fixtures
Flat ceilings instead of vaulted
Less expensive trim
Less expensive lot/land
.
Two more things - Breaking your posts up into paragraphs makes them much easier to read.
And tell us where you're building at - That may get you some more helpful suggestions.
"with 2 car attached garage"
and how important is this in relation to hardwood floors and other not easily put in things?
since it is "attached" can't it be postponed?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Everyone's house is a "special house", but there are always ways to cut costs.
Every jog or angle in the foundation is going to add cost to the project, can you simplify the design?
Figure out what you really need, not want, but need and add that to the cost. Make a list of items you feel that you can change or add after the contractor has left. Things that are complex or better done while construction occurs have the contractor do. Nothing says that you gotta have some ornate trim package in the house. If you're handy replace or add trim at a later date.
Lighting is an area where I never understood why people spend a bunch of money. Can lights are nice and cheap to install. Fixtures...why pay a bunch of money on top of the line fixtures when in 5-10 years you're tired of them or they go out of style.
Use carpet until at some later date you can go install the hardwood floor.
Gotta manage the wants verses the needs. Most people dont know how to do that when building a house.
Oh yeah...remember to leave money for landscaping. There is NOTHING worse than a beautiful house with nothing but dirt or only grass surrounding it.
I think one key is knowing what we're trying to save 10% "of". It's one thing to be 10% over on a house that was budgeted to cost $100,000- one could "probably" find $10k somewhere. If, however, it's 10% of $500k, that list would need to encompass an entirely different scope of value engineering.
Bob
Thank you for the prompt and useful responses. On reading them I realize that I ommited some crucial information.
We are both 68 and retired so leaving stuff for the future is neither income dependant or an attractive thought. We're building, and resident , in western NC. The total cost of the house so far is $250K not including land, which is already paid for, but does include driveway, well (allowance) and patio.
So, does that throw a different light on things? And hopefully this format is easier to read <grin>.
lime..
2 things..
1st: you said you need a cushion in case the GC goes over...
why? seems a simple house , there should be no change orders.. ie: if you sign a contract for $200K , you should get your house and get charged $200K
2d: i like Andersen windows
and an unsolicited 3d: you are going to do all of the interior painting yourselves , right ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, it's not the GC we doubt it's us! We has met the enemy! Anyway, us doing the painting is not something we'd thought of so we'll discuss that to see if it's worth it. Any idea what kind of money (asume one neutral color) that would involve?
Not a major revelation:
Order your kitchen appliances from usappliance.com. No sales tax and cheaper by a good bit over Sears. Takes 3-4 weeks to arrive via common carrier. I saved $1k on 4 appliances totalling $6k (dishwasher, stovetop (gas), double wall oven, vent hood).
Don't put hardwood or carpet down. Live on the subfloor. I've lived on 1/2" plywood I ran over top some plank flooring and I find it to be quite suitable as a floor. Of course I have three kids and two dogs. Maybe leave the trim off too, make yourself and hang it over time.
You say you are "upgrading" insulation? Does that mean spray foam? That is pricey, but makes a wonderful house. It also reduces HVAC size, but may mean you need an HRV (more money).
Most of the money you can save is by leaving off work and doing it yourself. My Dad is 68 too and he always reminds me, you have 100,000 working hours in your life, what do you want to do with them? So you'll need to be careful about what you leave off.
I bought Anderson 400 windows from Home Depot for the slightly less than I could get Marvin Integrity for. I think they are roughly an equivalent window, but I've had great service from Anderson on some other things I have owned, so I trusted them.
If you are total animal, you might be able to truck your own lumber from Canada. That might be silly though, there was another thread about it a week or so ago.
Let me know where you are in Western NC. My mom just built a house out there and maybe I can help you with some of the local trade guys. She has found some good and bad there.
MERC.
I agree that "Value Engineering" is a great way to start. I am an engineer and this is a large part of my job. I know the tract builders have people who do nothing else. You also may want to weigh the less popular options. Assuming that you trust your builder and are coming to this forum as a last resort, why no consider one of two things. First, go modular. These days modular is not trailer. In fact there was a very good article in FHB about this not too long ago, and a little research will show that there are some very nice products out there. Since you get your house "production style" it tends to be cheaper and you can spend the extra money on the interior.The second option I would suggest is to build what you can afford and sell it. The 98 (97?) tax law allows you to retain all of the profits from the sale of your primary residents as long as you have not taken advantage of this rule in the last two years. If you structure it correctly, you never have to leave the place you are staying now and you make a couple of bucks. Your builder/GC is a business man and the idea of getting two homes (this one for profit and the next for you) will no doubt be appealing. Get together with and appraiser (not a realtor) with your home plans and figure out an expected sale value. See if it is worth it.
Have you considered stained concrete floors instead of carpeting?
This, if it works in your design, could be a nice cost saver and if you didn't like it could be changed later very easily.
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Have you considered making the enclosed garage an open carport?
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
I always think "value engineering" should be in quotes...usually there's no value or engineering involved.You want it faster, better and cheaper? Pick two & I'll be happy to oblige...
"I always think "value engineering" should be in quotes...usually there's no value or engineering involved."
I'd have to beg to differ on that one. When it's done correctly, value engineering (or it's new catch phrase "value management") can result in significant savings while either improving the value received in the finished product, or at least mantaining it's intent. And there's tons of engineering involved if you dig deep into the project and go beyond the usual, uncreative VE suggestions like "use vinyl flooring in lieu of marble". Gee, that'll save me money and still provide a walking surface? Really? No kidding......did you go to college to figure that one out?
In order for VE to work, several things need to be in place:
1. Both an owner and a designer who are willing to accept suggestions
2. "Sacred cows" can't be present, or there must be very few of them- everything's got to be fair game
3. The budget and the anticipated savings both have to be realistic to start with. You can't VE $200,000 out of a $300,000 project that had an original "budget" of $50,000. The budget was obviously set incorrectly in the first place, and expecting to take 33% out of a project doesn't leave you with the same project in the end.
Bob
"I always think "value engineering" should be in quotes...usually there's no value or engineering involved."
Like BobKovacs, I don't agree.
I'm often asked about reducing costs on trusses. Sometimes there are simple things we can do which will save a fair amount of money.
Just yesterday I changed the roof pitch on some larger trusses from 7/12 to 6.9/12. That change was just enough that we didn't have to piggyback the trusses. But it only dropped the ridge line about 2 1/2", so it didn't really change the look of the house. But it saved a significant amount of money.
There are sometimes other things that cost a lot of money, but the customer may not realize it. Like if there are vaulted ceilings in certain places that need girder trusses on 3 sides. Changing something like that can easily take $1,000 out of a truss system.
Why, Sir, most schemes of political improvement are very laughable things. [Samuel Johnson]
I come out of the manufacturing world so VE sounds like another one of those buzz phrases in vogue at any given moment. What I care about is being able to understand the price point for various level of quality as compared to our desired life style and then tweak any component of that alogorithm until we reach an acceptable compromise.
Having said that there is a limit to how many times one can go around the designer - Gc - owner circle and we're there! That's why, as a final resort, we came to this bevy of experts for help and we're getting it. Thank you.
At 68 with no construction background, you might do better to sell the vacant land and buy an existing house. Putting up a minimal shell and finishing it out while you live in it is a nice project for starting out, but could be overwhelming for retirement.
-- J.S.
LIMEYZEN,
Marvin integrity are decent windows (we installed a house full today), although not as nice as regular Marvins. I think they are at least the equal of Anderson or Pella.
Without knowing how many windows you need it is hard to say how much you will save by using the Integrity line. On my job, we had about 28 double hungs and round tops and the integritys were about $3000 (~20%) less than regular Marvins.
Regards,
Dennis
Thank you. When you say at least equivalent to Anderson or Pella what line in each are you comparing Intergrity too?
Anderson 400 series or Pella Architect series (850 at Lowes)
Regards,
Dennis
We're building a house now so I'll just throw my .02 worth in on the window issue. Our builder used mostly Anderson 200 series windows in the house, except in a few spots where he could only use 400 series. My wife and I were a bit nervous about this but, after seeing them in the showroom and in the house now, we are very pleased. Only time will tell how they hold up but several of our relatives are in the trades and swear by Anderson.
- Rob
hey lime,
how about changing the hip roof to a gable?
i don't know what your foundation costs are, but i know the land around asheville varies from flat to near vertical. if you are on a sloped lot, you can save money by reducing the footprint of the house.
changing the shingles won't change much, unless you try pro-panel or some other metal roof.
the best things you can do are limiting labor-intensive materials. while WNC isn't the western slope of colorado, labor is relatively expensive.
on the brighter side, even if your house does go slightly overbudget, it will appreciate so fast you might not notice it in 6 months.
good luck!
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
some additional thoughts to this process.
I am an Toyota engieer, so here's our take on these terms:Value engineering is not "vinyl flooring vs. hardwood" or "granite countertops vs. formica", that is spec. reduction.Spec reduction is valid, and can include work you can do yourself (painting, basic interior finishing, or whatever your bank mortgage will allow). Be sure to clear that sort of thing with your mortgage because they usually will not pay the final payment until the C of O is issued, and your jurisdiction may not issue a C of O until carpets and final trim are installed and so on (protecting the bank's ability to resell if you don't pay and they have to foreclose). Spec reduction can be deciding on lower grade windows, insulation, appliances, fewer square feet or whatever the customer is willing to accept to reduce the project cost.Value engineering, on the other hand, is looking for ways to get the SAME performance at lower cost. Ideally, this is invisible to the final customer so quality of windows or light fixtures or appliances are not considered here.Good value engineering is using a more efficient truss system, or foundation system, or floor layout that provides best usability with minimum wasted square footage.Spec reduction is very easy to do.
Value engineering is very HARD to do, and in a house project can be quite challenging. It may require that the inspector agree with the designer's unique plans, or that some new technology be signed off by a CE before the inspector will give approval.Many VE ideas are discussed here regularly, and often times the best value is not the same approach in different markets with different labor rates, access to pre-manufactured goods and local traditions (plaster vs. drywall, poured vs. block foundation, truss design, etc.).hope this helps,
Norm
If this is the house you are planning to grow old in, I would reconsider carpet. This could cause mobility problems down the road if either of you ends up temporarily on a walker.
At 68, I'd think 35 years of roof would be plenty. Stay off the roof and it should last longer than if you run up there to staple down the inflatable santa every year.
You say you have an open plan. Any long beam spans that could be modified with a column? A beam that has to span 24 feet can be a lot more expensive than one that only has to span 18. Can your plan be adjusted to utilize stock truss sizes from the supplier? It was amazing how much cheaper our addition would have been if we had the leeway to adjust the foundation just a couple of inches to allow for a standard truss rather than a custom one.
I would look for design elements that are labor intensive. Complex foundations, complex roofs, tile - these all add a lot to price. You said that it includes a patio. Is this a simple concrete square, or is it a lovely curving bluestone creation? Is this something you could do yourself? Perhaps it would be less expensive to detach the garage and build a breezeway between the two? It adds an exterior door to the plan, but some of the engineering to protect occupants from fumes goes away, as well as potentially simplifying the roof and foundation work.
What about your appliances? Are you looking at a commercial range requiring commercial venting, or are your selections simpler? Stainless Steel adds a premium onto the cost of an appliance (besides not holding magnets for grandchildren's art or photos of your trek through Nepal), if white is OK you can save hundreds right there.
I am just a homeowner, so take all that I say as worth what you paid for it.
Good luck with building your dream.
"It was amazing how much cheaper our addition would have been if we had the leeway to adjust the foundation just a couple of inches to allow for a standard truss rather than a custom one."
That may be something pretty localized. Almost no one stocks trusses anymore - The vast majority of trusses are built to order.
Why is there a light in the fridge and not in the freezer?
Could be because we built the addition 4 years ago? BMC West moved their truss plant so I no longer drive by, but prior to the move we would see stacks of trusses in the yard that would seemingly sit there for months - I assumed this was their 'stock' that they had when we were pricing.
I can see where it wouldn't be cost effective to keep this kind of inventory, but I'd think that you'd save a little on the engineering if it is something that is 'plug and play' and is regularly built vs trusses that need a whole new set of drawings.
Consider going away from the hip roof design. That would probably save a few $$$.
Well, until I read enought to put the same items together that John did
"At 68 with no construction background"
I was ready to say DIY to save, so this will be maybe a different take.
No mention of who will inherit, zoning where located, etc. etc. I'm pushing retirement myself and some of the outbuildings I've put up in the last 5 years are made to only last 20-30 years tops, as I'm sure they will all get bulldozed no matter the quality so some more crackerbox $500K McMansions can get built like wer on the neighbors place.
So, if you want to spend what you have on a Taj Maretire, go do it. If you have decendents you want to leave something to give it to them now and live in a condo. Only you can decide, but unless you are building something to leave to someone in particular, go with the cheapest you can get.
Just put up another garage for under 5 cents! a sq foot (designed to be rotted out in 30 years), I'll post some sequence pix in a month or so when done for laughs.
Just put up another garage for under 5 cents! a sq foot (designed to be rotted out in 30 years), I'll post some sequence pix in a month or so when done for laughs.
Junk, I can't wait for those pic's.
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Is the house on a crawl space or basement, have you considered another floor plan, maybe something 200 square feet smaller, This last spring I built and sold a 1900 square foot rancher, on a crawl space, with a 400 square foot attached garage. I could have reduced the floor plan by 200 square feet and still had a nice roomy house with 3 bedrooms. I havn't figured out if the 200 square feet would translate into a 10% cost reduction.
What is the siding...brick,stone,vinyl? Any fireplaces you really don't need? Attic is un-finished,yes? How much 'electronic'stuff[intercoms,music,alarms,house-humidifiers,etc.] can you do w/o?? Any dormers in the attic?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Siding is Hardiboard, no fireplace - will have woodstove or, if SWMBO has her way, gas log thing. Attic (what there is since LR and DR are vaulted under trusses) will not be used so no dormers. Tx
About 1/2 and 1/2 crawl space/basement. One major constraint on design was location of septic field also unforseen driveway location problem but all in all we're pleased with the design just trying to get some $buffer against inevitable changes.
As you can see, the suggestions vary widely. It sounds like you're only about 10% from achieving your dream home. I suspect that some of the suggestions made here would take you further than 10% away from your ideal dream home...even if they do bring the financial aspect into line.
Adding my thoughts, some of which have already been mentioned: Look for the small details that can save fair bits of $$.
A rectangular basement is typically cheaper than one having many turns and angles. Is there a lot of complexity to the floorplan? Can any points of it be simplified without any substantial loss in quality? Is the roofline complex? Can it be simplified?
I can remember a former co-worker bemoaning a $300k+ estimate to build his 2k sqft floorplan. Well, he had about TWENTY exterior corners, most of which carried down to the foundation (90 degree, 45, 30 and 60's). It had 5 or 6 different layers of roof. About a godzillion windows. Valted ceilings throughout most of the first floor... non-standard heights on the second floor... expensive light fixtures... etc. 4BR house with SIX BA's?! It adds up in a hurry. A full bathroom is probably $10k or more.
Sounds like this is going to be your retirement home. In which case, I wouldn't skimp on 'quality of life' type items. The attached garage can be a godsend if you're in an area with cruddy winter weather. I wouldn't made doorways any narrower or add any steps I didn't have to in case of any mobility issues later in life. Also I wouldn't skimp on anything related to energy efficiency, because you'll pay for it in higher utility bills.
Edited 12/23/2004 11:48 am ET by JohnT8
Edited 12/23/2004 11:52 am ET by JohnT8
Thank you. We folowed Sarah Susanka's line of thinking re open plan and providing for future (this is our last house - we think!) so 36" doors, only rooms that have walls and doors are B/R's and baths etc. As I mentioned before we are going to upgrade insulation a la FHB so will ned to offset that +'l cost.
lime...
from your first post i got the impression that your design was very well thought out..
so.. i do not advocate changing the design.. any part of it..
i do think you can resolve the potential INFLATION by a good sit -down with your GC... if he can't lock in the price.. find someone who can...
you and he should redline the items that will lower the cost..
i like Andersen windows...i like the Tiltwash.. and the casements especially... but you can also get great value with the narrowline and wash the outside from the outside.. not everyone needs a Tiltwash..
and.. here's a tip.. part of Andersen's line is a Builder's line... their most popular sizes are deep discounted..
AND.. you can get factory finish interiors... so you don't have to paint sash...
keep your floor finishes as ALLOWANCE items so you can take them out of the contract if your budget gets threatenedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Did you get more than one quote for the construction of your house? You mentioned " he came back with a quote". you might want to get a second one.
a few things
One
whats wrong with a top quality vinyl window. in almond color with wood trim , look really good, can save a fortune. really need a wood look, wood cald fiberglass
example current house. 36 sindows, started with anderson , then went wood clad fibergalss, then they saw one of our jobs with almond vinyl with wood trim. thats the route they took, saved them 9k on house.
other prices changes we did. post and beam roof to vaulted truss
tile to 50 year archi laminate
granite counters through out the house to granite kitchen , formica in baths
wood floors through out to vinyl in utility, 2nd bath and carpet in 2 secondary bedrooms ( however switched to tile in master bath and kitchen , at same price as hardwood)
fake rock for gas fireplace.
replacable appliances that were specked stainless steel , back to black dishwasher and jenn air slide in, black micro and a white fridge, beside i think the black looks good with maple cabinets
However I fully agree, things that are hard to replace later or inside walls, dont go cheap now, dont sacrafice structural integrety or electrical supply, meaning dont push breakers to their limit.
two
if your younger go chaep now and remodel later, we had a customer come to us and say , strentgh and big. 4200 sq feet. chaeap cabinets, plywood florrs except water areas, no trim, low budget replacable appliances and plumbing fixtures. 2x6 walls 16oc, 1/2cdx. hardie lap, vaulted trusses, 5/8 cdx 35 year lami. 4 velux skylights, milgard classic vinyl windows ( thier best with lifetime warranty) . 2x12 floor joists at 16oc 3/4 t&g ply with 1/2 ac ply on top ( sanded and stained) . they got into the house at 73 a square foot 4 years ago
three
64 years old, if your in good shape , you got a long way to go, we have one customer who is in his 80s and is just starting another house that is a "you finish"
have another potential customer who just hit 70, has built several homes as you finish types, and we are desinging hs "retirement home" so if your fit, dont let anywone tell you at 64 our too old
( however , I know some people who either physically or mentally cant do any part of it)
ayway, thats my christmas 3 cents worth
We are basically done with building our home. we have a temp COA and will be finished with it in the next month or so. Here's my take on it.
Anything you do on your own extends the time before you move in. The cabinetry is a good example. How long will it take you to build them, 3 months or more? That means you probably will be paying rent or another mortage/construction loan for those 3 months. Will you save $3,000? (By the way, I'm a cabinet maker) The same goes with tile work, painting.
I see you are looking at a single story home. That's good even though you "might" be able to save costs on a multi-story home.
Can you buy an inexpensive trailer and stay on the property till the house is done and then resell it (don't buy it new...). This could be a little money out of pocket in the end but it could save you 6-12 months rent/mortgage. I wish we had done it, but it is nice to be able to "get away" for a while, plus we have 3 kids and 2 large dogs in the Pacific Northwest. (can you say rain?)
Get the utilities/structural necessities done first. Especially the well. As an example., my last home had a well drilled to 884' deep to get sufficent water @ 7-10gpm. That cost was $20,000. I had planned on that much, but I ever knew what it would be until the job was done. Having to drill two wells because the first was unfit is not unheard of. Same goes with septic systems.
DON'T make changes... they cost money and time. The saying "time is money" is definately true in construction. Some bulders are a little more lenient on changes, and some want you next child, or at least to be able to put their own kid through college ;-)
I'm also not a believer in cutting corners now to rework it later (as in carpeting) At that point, why not a small loan to get you by until you can pay it off later? If you can live with cheap laminate flooring($1.00 sq ft), then put it in. Just don't rip it out later.
If you can do without the lanscaping/ driveway, that will save money, unless it is required by local CC&R's or other ordinences
The best thing I can really recommend is that you find a builder who has a regular crew. This includes them beling on the job, until the job is done, not one crew working on 3-4 homes at once. This is what we went through.
Years ago, I read an article in a magazne(FHB??) that recommended that you give the plans to the subs and have them suggest on where and how they can save YOU money. I am a firm believer of this. I can't tell you how many times a designer, or an architech has drawn something that is just plain expensive to build/plumb/wire/finish when a few suggestions from a competent sub would have saved the homeowner money.
If you plan on any type of mortgage, remember where the rates are now, they might not(probably not) be the same 6 months from now.