Hello,
I’m looking for some creative ideas regarding termite damage repair. My skill level is above DIY but not quite master carpenter. I’ve done all types of my own remodels so I’m not afraid to get into something like this.
Last year I purchased a single family 1920’s fixer in Indianapolis. I’ve done a lot of work on it, but have been procrastinating on the big item: severe termite damage across the entire front of the house, a swath about four feet by 25 feet. The sill plate and joists are essentially dust, as well as the subfloor under the oak floor strips. But they did not touch the oak floor strips (top nailed) for some reason. The result is the floor still looks great, but you can feel that something is wrong by the way it bounces when you walk over it. What surprises me is that the whole thing hasn’t caved in yet. I knew the damage extent when I purchased the place, but the deal was too good to pass up.
Anyway, I’m trying to figure out some clever way to repair all the damage underneath, without ripping up any of the flooring strips. Everything is accessible through the crawlspace, about 3ft tall. In a different part of the house, I had to do a similar repair. At that spot, I tried to gently take up the floor strips and repair the subfloor. But no matter how gentle I was, they ended up broken, cracked and chipped. I took the old nails out and laid back down, but it just looks really crummy.
Has anyone ever repaired a floor like this from underneath? What if I could rip out all the stuff underneath, leaving the top nails in the flooring, and build a new subfloor just touching the nail bottoms: Then I could squeeze some of that epoxy floor leveler stuff into the void– would that work or am I nuts? I am wide open for suggestions here. Many Thanks.
Replies
to quote you..."am I nuts?"..yup.
that you are....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
watch it now..I'm just doin a whole house. I love termites. Job security.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
A week or so ago, someone was asking if there was any way to remove a window, without removing the vinyl siding that was covering the nail flanges.
The answer to your question is the same as the answer to that one.
Sorry.....bite the bullet, rip out the strip floor, then have at the repair job. I understand that it is almost impossible to save the strips -- I've tried that myself. But if cost is an issue, you always have the choice of cheap carpet or vinyl. Then, in a few years, you can re-do it with something better (hardwood, ceramic, marble?).
I'm with the other guys.
Not tearing up the floor isn't a valid possibility.
Entropy just isn't what it used to be
Well, if you were determined....
Remove all of the damaged material. Now your looking at the bottom of the oak floor strips with the nails coming through.
Cut the nails off flush.
Glue the subfloor up to the oak.
Install the joists and sill plate. Presumably the ends of the joists are bad. So you cut them off where the damage stops and place a joist of the appropriate length in. Then you probably need to sister the joist (both sides) for a given length on either side of the joint. I'm not sure what that distance might be (2 or 3 feet) nor what the means of attachment should be.
I don't know why this wouldn't work. But I don't have all that much experience at this stuff. It would certainly be a pain in a three foot crawl.
But if the oak floor is particularly unique, or in a very large room (making replacement very expensive), maybe it could be worth doing.
If no one comes along here to explain why my post makes no sense, run it by the guy at the lumberyard.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Getting into the crawlspace doesn't really bother me to attack this job. The question raised earlier is what I'm pondering now: Is the floor really worth saving. It does look good and would be a good selling point if preserved. Most of my friends who have seen it like the floor. I dunno, I guess it depends on how it balances against the pain of preserving it.
I kind of like Rich's idea, but how to go about cutting the nails flush? Could I use a multi master or some other jamb saw type rotary tool fitted with a metal cutting blade?
Also I'm wondering about the business of replacing the sill plate. Originally I though to just jack up the house a wee bit in several sections at a time; then excavate the old and lay in a new one. But I'm afraid any extra upward pressure will crumble whats left of the whole arrangement, and then the house will settle even further and I'll be left with nothing convenient to push up on in the area I want to fix.
Thanks,Pio
As for cutting the nails off, I would use an angle grinder. But sure to wear a dust mask and goggles.
There have been articles on sill replacement in FHB. Clearly you can't use damaged structure to lift the house for sil replacement. Maybe you should replace the damaged joists before the sil.
But if you are goint to use the new joist material to jack up the house, Nick's excellent caveats above go double.
To address Nick's concerns, you could perhaps cut the subfloor piece to size, cut the joist replacements to size, screw and glue the subfloor to the joist replacement pieces and then glue the assembly to the oak floor, sister accross the joints in the joists, then maybe some blocking.
This might be too difficult to do in a three foot crawl.
You've got to really love that one of a kind floor to make this worthwhile.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
I'm still gonna say that the original poster's request is, quite simply, impossible. And it is impossible for the reasons that Nick Nukem stated. A floor system is much more than the sum of its parts.
Think of it this way. If any of us were asked to quote a price for doing it both ways -- the requested way, and the right way, what would our reaction be?
I would offer a bid on doing it the right way, including new flooring. And if the customer insisted on hearing the other price, I'd probably multiply the first number by 10, or maybe 12. I would then pray that the customer didn't call my bluff, because I'm certain that my liability insurance would not cover me.
The risk of having the house fall, is just way too much risk. Is there a structural engineer here, who might be able to tell us how strong the wall systems are, when the floor system has been compromised by the bugs?
How about how strong the wall systems will be when they've been reset onto a floor system that is not fastened normally. And the real question -- how comparatively weak is a floor system that has been built in backwards order, using unapproved fastening methods.
No, in my opinion, this one falls in the same category as the guy that managed to dig a basement under an existing house, with virtually no effective bracing. It might work, and someone could make fun of me as a result. But, more likely, it's just a bad idea.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
It depends on what you want to do with your time.
I don't think it would be difficult, at least conceptually, to do what you're describing. Even fastening the subfloor to the joists could be done with glue and screws, you'd just use a lot more screws to make up for the shallow depth of engagement.
BUT, if you have or can get a job that pays at least minimum wage, it would take less of your time to tear up the floor, redo the structural bits, and then use the money from your wages to hire some flooring genius like luvditchburns and tell him, "Make me a new floor that looks 100 years old." Not only would you like the look of the floor, but it would very likely be a better floor than the one you've got now.
So many of the things you hear described as impossible are in fact quite possible, but it's easier to say "impossible" than to say "way more expensive than you would ever dream of paying." In this case, you're talking about spending your time instead of money, but I would still put it in the category of "way more expensive than you want to pay for."
I recently had a situation where I needed to tear up some 2" wide by ~ 3/8" thick top-nailed strip oak (no tongue and groove) to get at some wiring. Believe it or not the best tool I found for the job was a type of shovel normally used for roof tearoffs. Being 8 inches wide or so it minimized any wood splitting. It gave the added advantage of being able to work standing up. Just make sure you firmly slide the points of the shovel along the subfloor so as not to gouge the finished floor and work your way along the entire length of the board a litte at a time Once the wood is up pull out the nails from the back. Using this technique I was able to get 90% or so of the boards up without any damage. Most of these boards were 8' long.
I've taken up a lot of thin (5/16") t&g oak. It's very time consuming, but not really difficult. It's a labor of love thing, not one that makes economic sense. And you can get at least 90% of it out without damage. Over termite eaten subfloor, it should come out easier, and more than 90% should survive.
You have to start from the side where the tongue is, and use every flat thing you can gather -- putty knives, 5 in 1's, flat bars, old pancake flippers. It helps to work up more than one piece at a time, so the next piece or two are curling upward as you get the one you're working on free.
Check the closet floors. You might find they still have the same original oak in them, and you can replace a closet floor with something else to get enough matching oak to replace the stuff that gets damaged when you take out the main floor.
-- J.S.
You want to replace subfloor, joists and sill without ripping up the existing oak? Is that right?
I would have serious reservations about the structural aspects of such a rebuilt floor. A floor as built is more than the sum of its parts. The subfloor ties the whole thing together, and is nailed/screwed from above. Without fasteners to fix the subfloor to joists, I think you're gonna have trouble. And if you did devise a way to say screw from the underneath into the subfloor, it wouldn't have the same holding power, in my opinion.
BTW, if you were gonna attempt this, I would toenail thru the joists on both faces to lock the subfloor down as much as possible.
For what it's worth, rip it up and do it right.
One other consideration to help you in your decision: last week I spent 4 hours flat on my back in a crawl space that ranged from about 18-30" high. We were installing foam insulation. Between the pipes, cables, rocks and dirt, it was a miserable 4 hours. Three feet is better, maybe, but you're still going to sacrifice a considerable amount of leverage that you will need to muscle plywood and joists into position. It will be a job that you will regret undertaking from about the third minute on.
BTW, my neck muscles are still sore from keeping my head up. If you decide to go thru with it, blanket the crawl space with tarps, empty all your pockets, and bring a foam bolster to elevate your head while working. Think about it; 36" is about the length of the floor to your crotch, you're gonna be on your back or belly most of the time.
I'm glad I consulted you folks about this project. After reading the replies, and with due consideration, you all have helped me make the decision to bag it. The floor is not really worth the trouble to save it from underneath. I guess I really don't want to spend that kind of time in a crawlspace on my back. I'll just get in from the topside, small sections at a time. And as for buying new floor strips, depends on whether I can find a good deal or not. If not, it will end up as plywood with carpet over the top. Thanks for your input everyone.
Pio
don't you just hate it when you come up with a plan,and everybody just points and laughs!i'm in the middle of one of them now,and damnit i'm not going to admit i was wrong until i get done!!![my sign on name says it all] anyway i agree with your decision, new oak flooring is only 3.00 a ft.,just nail it down to that new subfloor and you'll be glad you did it the right way. by the way are the termites gone? around here we fight them quite a bit. spraying gets rid of them for about 3 years or until the neighbor sprays his house and sends them back .good luck larry