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Help w/ electrical in kitchen renovation

honeydo51 | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 5, 2015 10:17am

Helping my son w/ house he just bought, built in circa 1958. Originally kichen was all electric. Now we have gas line run for new gas stove. There are two existing 30 amp lines, each connected to their own double pole 30 amp breaker. I don’t need that kind of amperage but I want to use the dedicated lines, one for the over the stove microwave and one for the refrigerator.

Question – can I cap off and retire so to speak the red wire in each and just go w/ the black-white-ground? I’m thinking I would then also have to change out the breaker for each to a single pole 20 amp breaker. Would this work and would this be safe? Thanks in advance.

Honeydo51

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  1. DanH | Dec 05, 2015 10:36pm | #1

    Yes, if the existing wires contain black/white/red/ground you may abandon the red and use the wires for a 120V circuit.  (Note that not all setups of that vintage have separate white (ie, neutral) and ground wires.)  You should change the breaker to a single-pole 20A.  You do need to observe limits on wire size for the new components -- it may be necessary to pigrtail the wires on the kitchen end to fit a standard duplex outlet.  (Install a deep box.)

    Also note that any outlets within a certain distance (5 feet??) of the sink must be GFCI-protected.

    1. honeydo51 | Dec 05, 2015 11:21pm | #2

      Thanks for your quick answer, DanH. It raises another question for me. I know about the GFCI requirement but is it still required if the GFCI outlet is at the start of the run and there will be downstream outlet(s) protected by that GFCI?

      Honeydo51

      1. renosteinke | Dec 06, 2015 07:54am | #3

        GFCI, etc.

        receptacles serving the countertop are required to be GFCI protected. The code does not say how or where this will be done.

        You can do it at the panel with a GFCI breaker. you can do it as you describe. You can have every receptacle be it's own GFCI.

        I'm truly surprised you can re-use the existing wiring. Not only is it rare for 1958-vintage circuits to have a ground wire, but stove circuits were typically two 'hot' wires and a third ground/neutral well into the 90's. Plus, the stove outlet is usually in the wrong place to be useful for anything else; by the time you've made your splices, etc., it's a real question what you're saving.

        Your description of two 30-amp 240-volt circuits does not conform to any kitchen I've ever seen. Stove circuits are usually quite a bit larger (meaning bigger wire), and I don't know why you'd have two of them. Was there a clothes dryer added, or a water heater?

        That's why I suggest you disconnect the old wires and remove what you can. It's usually not that hard to run new wires.

        1. gfretwell | Dec 06, 2015 10:37am | #4

          Wall oven and a cook top?

  2. honeydo51 | Dec 08, 2015 12:03am | #5

    follow-up on responses to 30 amp kitchen line

    I really do appreciate your response and everyone's response. If it is not already self-evident, I am not an electrician.

    Anyway, yes I swear there was an electric wall oven and an electric cook top. Each were direct wired on dedicated lines and each terminated at the service panel w/ their own double pole 30 amp breaker. You can still read the markings on the insulation so I confirmed that each run was a 10 AWG line and I am absolutely positive that each had black-red-white and a copper ground. I double checked the multiple listing for the house and it was built in 1963 so that may change some thoughts on what existed then.

    The house is a split level built on a slab. The service panel is out on the far wall of a two-car attached garage and I would guesstimate the run to the upstairs kitchen is a good 30 ft. or so. I stated my original goal in my initial post. Since these two lines were dedicated, I want to preserve them since the appliances require them. One will go to the above range microwave and one will be for the refrigerator. Stove/oven will be converted to gas. Already yet another dedicated line for the dishwasher. If I had to run new home runs I would probably put a gun to my head, or maybe my son's head. Too much is covered up and too many obstacles, at least for me. So that's why my original question. Trying to save doing difficult work.

    I've pulled those two lines back down into utility room below (which has also been gutted) so I've removed much of the two 10 AWG lines. I wanted to tie in new 20 amp lines via a splice in box method (removing the red wire from the equation) and doing a new run from there plus changing out the breakers.

    Does this change anyone's thoughts?

    1. DanH | Dec 08, 2015 05:21am | #6

      So the cable jacket has "10-3/WG" printed on it?

    2. renosteinke | Dec 08, 2015 08:55am | #7

      Looks Do-Able, But Watch the Details

      Described as it is, it looks like you can have four 120-volt circuits made available.

      Yes, you can replace each 2-pole 30-amp breaker with a 2-pole 20-amp breaker. Take care that you use 'two-pole' breakers- that is, fat breakers that take up as much space as the original breaker. The breaker will either have only one handle, or there will be two handles tied together , so both circuits get turned off at once.

      At the existing end of the cables will be your junction box. Make sure this box remains accessible- not buried in the wall or blocked by the counter top.

      Since you will have two circuits using the same white wire back to the panel, it is critical that the connection never come loose. Very bad things happen when there's a loose neutral connection when you're "sharing" a neutral. This is one place where I make sure to use "Wago," or 'push-in,' style connectors instead of wire nuts.

      In your arrangement, it's easiest for you to have GFCI protection by the first receptacle in each run.

  3. honeydo51 | Dec 13, 2015 10:32pm | #8

    response to DanH

    There are no legible markings on the outside of the cable. It is not plastic sheathing of any kind like "Romex", but rather some kind of strange silver material on kind of a mesh base. It seems pretty fragile at this point. Based on the breakers and the gauge of the wires, I'm pretty comfortable that it is 30 AWG

    1. DanH | Dec 14, 2015 08:05am | #9

      30 AWG is tiny -- telephone wire.

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