Over the Fence is where I normally spend my time and this is my first post here. The following was posted on Over the Fence but no help with question number 1 below, hope someone here can help (please feel free to comment on question number 2) – thanks.
Now that the heat has finally broken and is no longer oppressive, I am starting work on a new section of my garden and I am looking for some advice with answers to two questions. The plan is to build a free standing Pergola leading to a sunken garden with the sunken garden created by digging into a slope and building field stone retaining walls on the up hill side.<!—-> <!—->
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The pergola will be approximately forty feet in total length and contain two 90 degree turns so it will eventually go north, turn east, and then turn north again. It will be constructed out of pressure treated dimensional lumber with the posts being 6 x 6 and will probably be 8 to 9 feet out of the ground. From an aesthetic point of view I have not yet decided on the lumber for the upper part, but it will most likely be 2 x 8’s and 2 x 4’s. <!—->
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Question #1 – I am in <!—-><!—-> <!—->Connecticut<!—-><!—->, zone 6a (last three winters more like a 5b) so frost is a concern although I have not experienced heaving problems with fence posts. The plan is to dig a 30 inch hole, fill with six inches of crushed rock for drainage, and then add six inches of quick-set cement. The cement is only being used to help keep the post vertical while the remainder of the hole is filled with well tamped dirt. Given a 8 to 9 foot height and 20 6 x 6 posts interlinked together, is two feet in the ground sufficient?<!—->
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Question #2 – I am also looking for recommendations for climbing plants. The plan is to have both wisteria and trumpet vine, possibly clematis but probably not rose, grape, or hydrangea. Morning glory and ornamental gourds will undoubtedly be used for additional quick fill in. From personal experience, does anyone have other suggestions?
Replies
I'm in DC -- I would go 40" on the hole - do what you are doing 6" stone as a base -- skip the concrete and fill the rest with stone to the top. This Spring I built a 8x14 'tree' house that stands on 4 6x6's and did the 40 inch hole deal -- it has worked well and is rock solid -- don't go cheap on the hole -- it is the foundation and needs to be the strongest element -- to repair later would be cost prohibitive and just not practicable
On the plants, I have an arbor that has a combination of grapes, kiwi and wisteria -- they all are doing well and provide the cover I need -- good luck
We do pergolas here in st louis all the time. Graveling is good, after that we leave a 34 inch hole, 30 inches for a 8 inch tube and 4 for the concrete to "bell out". we always use wet anchors. could not imaginge us ever haveing a heave problem here in st louis. callbacks cost more than an extra bag of concrete
our unusual brutal winters have made set 12" cassions to 60"...
use cedar posts and hammer in gravel w/o CC.. by time everything is locked together it won't go any place,,
the columns here are cedar and the rest of the unit is CF... later painted white on a HO whim...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Marty, do you know of anyone selling Osage/hedge/hedgeapple fence posts?
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
no...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
When I was a kid, you could order them. Only drawback was finding STRAIGHT ones, and that the ones I can remember were always round (which works great for barbed wire but not so good for subdivision fence).
BIL has the fence on his project list (if he ever gets the house painted), and I was just digging up options for him.
He has a lot of people telling him to concrete the posts in, but I point out the fact that the fence posts Dad put in 30 years ago (tamped dirt) are still solid as a rock, so therefore he'd be just as well off to use gravel and dirt instead of concrete. Or if he opts for concrete, come up with a steel anchor which goes into the concrete and then attach the wooden post to the anchor.jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
skip the dirt...
those pound in mail box / fence post anchors set in CC work well...
you are the man with yur methods.. put a hold on the CC...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
those pound in mail box / fence post anchors set in CC work well...
he is probably looking at a 6x6 or better posts, 5-7' tall (frost line about 36", so 8-10' posts if they go in without CC).
Are those mailbox/fence post anchors capable of dealing with a 6x6 with 5-7' sticking out of the ground? The fence needs to be strong, because they have a Great Pyranese -sp- that is like trying to keep a moose penned in. After watching Oreo at the Fest, I told Ma that BIL would be well served to turn his Pyr over to you for a couple months of intense training.
12k BT posts! sheeze, what a talkative bastard ! ;)
Blue probably has you beat though, and that's in just the last 12 months. I was kinda surprised to see I was over 2k. Probably 200 of those have been in the last week.jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
those pound in mail box / fence post anchors set in CC work well...
he is probably looking at a 6x6 or better posts, 5-7' tall (frost line about 36", so 8-10' posts if they go in without CC).
Are those mailbox/fence post anchors capable of dealing with a 6x6 with 5-7' sticking out of the ground?
they are worthless by themselves... you can get them for 6x6...
The fence needs to be strong, because they have a Great Pyranese -sp- that is like trying to keep a moose penned in.
dig a hole and set in gravel....
After watching Oreo at the Fest, I told Ma that BIL would be well served to turn his Pyr over to you for a couple months of intense training.
some want me to take their kids fer a spell too...
12k BT posts! sheeze, what a talkative bastard ! ;)
all in crypto no less.... now about this accussation about being talkative...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well John you made # 12,000...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think my ideas for my design have changed. Great picture!! Thanks.
so when do engineer this thing of yours....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
fill the hole with 100% rock.. no CC or dirt... drainage is good...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I agree with those who told you to use gravel (unless your posts are going into clay). Someone in your area should know the frost depth and I would put my posts in so they sit slightly below that level (42" here in Michigan). I have seen fence posts only put 24-30" into the ground, but then fence posts stick out of the ground only 6', not 8' or 9' and they don't have plants to support (see note below about wisteria).
From the little I know about plants, I do know that wisteria is a very "heavy" plant and will pull down a lot of structures, so if you want wisteria, really make your pergola beefy. I also here that wisteria really attracts bees (but then so do most flowering vines--I think wisteria on a pergola is a great idea as wisteria is one of my faves). Good luck--post pictures (especially when the vines are flowering later!).
The cement will do nothing for you.
You want three feet in the ground, not only against frost heave, but also for alteral stability. A pergola doesn't have much diagonal bracing to keep it right.
To hold posts plumb while backfilliong, use a helper or braces tacked on.
Wisteria or Kiwi gets my atttention. I like Clymatis too but not as much luck with it.
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Thanks for all the help. Started doing final measuring last night. Since I have a grade change of 16" over the full length of the planned pergola I started putting together a model so I can "see" how it will look. Hope to be down to the lumber yard tomorrow to place my order. Thanks again!!!
Dick,
You've gotten some good advice.
I'm in CT as well and have never had a problem with fence posts heaving.
Right now I'm finishing up about 320-ish feet of 6' tall, 2" square picket cedar fencing.
Posts are 5" square cedar. Holes dug about 38-40", which is a deep as I can go with manual clamshell diggers. Add a few inches of gravel to the bottom, tamp it with the post, then fill in around the post with gravel. I fill in several lifts, using my 12# sledge as a tamper.
The fence is solid.
The pergola is next.
I forget who mentioned it, but wisteria can rip an unsturdy structure apart. I do like clamatis, cem loks fabulous with New Dawn climbing roses. Low maintenance as a rose goes, prolific bloomer.
Thanks. A lot of warnings about wisteria, but I think I will give it a shot. Digging on the sunken garden starts today.
You got the digs on the posting, but..don't do grapes. Unless ya like a LOT of bird droppings and japanese beetles on EVERY SQUARE inch under there. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
knee braces can add strength for little added material.
For the wisteria, don;t grow it up the post. Train it up a cable or wire, then let it flop over the top of the pergola. When the trunk is substantial enough, the wire/cable can be removed.
Great tip about the cable.
I was out at one of the wineries in Cal. a few years ago, and they had a beautiful pergola loaded withy roses and wisteria. They said the original intent was to build it out of lumber that would allow the posts to disappear over time (rot) so that the vines would wrap round the disappearing posts for years, and eventually hold up the roof on their own. The only problem was that the builder decided to use CCA for the posts. Looks like they will be there for a while. It was an interesting concept - maybe impractical and unsafe, but interesting.
Very uncooperative weather - heat during August and first of September, but I have finally gotten started. To all who said to stay away from concrete and use crushed stone, thanks. I have found it is actually easier to pack the stone rather than mix the concrete.
Anyway, a lot of work yet to be done, 13 more posts to start. Hope the pergola is done by Thanksgiving and the winter is on the mild side. There is quite a bit of dry stacked stone wall to build.
Thanks for posting the picture. Can't wait to see how it looks when you've got it completed.
Edited 9/26/2005 8:43 pm ET by Danno
Drainage baby, drainage. It's what's at the bottom of th hole that counts. In the NE if you have clay to bedrock....hmmm not good drainage.
I'd skip the CC too, however the pole barn guys use a concrete "cookie" about 6" thick and 12" round, pre-cast. What they do is dig the hole, set the disc and fill with stone. Go deep baby, well below frost line.
Don't forget the post bottoms!!! I'd put a asphalt shingle square under the post to isolate the end grain of the post from the CC.
Yea, they leave the posts long and set the tops as needed and then cut. It's really tough to get the holes all the same depth.
Good luck.
It's not wrong....it's rustic!