Help with basement/wine cellar (long)
I plan to build a wine cellar in the corner of a basement and need some suggestions and thoughts on the proper placement and type of insulation material to use so not to cause a moisture problem on the two basement corner walls.
I know wine cellars are supposed to have a vapor barrier on their warm side, and I know not to put the vapor barrier on the basement wall. But when the two share the same wall, what do you do?
The basement walls have already been covered with 2″ EPS and a full 2×4 wall constructed in front of that spaced about ¼” to ½” away. Similar to the FHB article, except nothing has been done to the floor and the studs are still uncovered.
I plan on conditioning the inside of the cellar to maintain the proper temp and humidity, so I do need insulation on the basement walls so their not a big heat sink for the cellar.
If I use more EPS to fill the stud cavities, leaving the air space behind the studs and then cover the outside of the studs (inside to the cellar) with as layer of XPS would this make any sense? EPS between the studs for more insulation, air gap between the two for some air circulation and the XPS for more insulation but as a vapor retarded from the inside of the cellar?
What do you think?
Replies
So you are leaving the concrete exposed inside the wine cellar and insulating, etc the walls separating it from the rest of the basement?
I'm no connoisseur, but was introduced to this site by a client. They have some excellent racking systems.
http://strictlycellars.com/
No, I want to insulate the concrete wall but yet keep some type of vapor barrier so the high humidity in the cellar will not condensate the basement wall, but yet allow the stud wall to dry to the basement.
Concrete is a different animal. Moisture migrates inside in the summer and outside in the winter. I would use expanded polystyrene (white foam) against the concrete without a vapor barrier inside the cellar.
The ideal temp for wine storage is between 65 and 50 degrees. Do you need to heat the cellar in winter?
Insulate, insulate, insulate!
Our "wine cellar" has insulated exterior/interior walls, no heating, etc. and it still manages to reach 60*F in cold winter conditions. Even the door has 1" of XPS on it. We'll keep out the sun with some heavily-insulated curtains but even so, I calculated that an AC unit was needed.
The strange thing is that wine cellar AC manufacturers typically list capacities in sq ft, not BTUs. I used HVAC-Calc to come to a close approximation of what was truely needed and noted with some surprise that their recommendation was 3x what HVAC-Calc said we needed.
I figure that the largest source of heat gain would be the windows, followed by interior walls (on two sides), plus the ceiling. If the AC unit runs a lot, we can always increase the insulation thickness in the window wells...
You should build a wall that has a gap between it and the concrete, then insulate first with a vapor barrier like 4 ml plastic wrapped into the cavities as you would the rest of the walls. I use ridged foam 3" and foam in any cracks with the expandable stuff for a higher R value. It's extra work to insulate this way but the results are what you want.
Early last year, a customer asked me bid on converting a room in their house into a wine cellar. After some research, I passed on the job because it involved way more than I wanted to try to handle.
Room insulation and floor loading are important issues, but the biggie is the cooling system that maintains the temperature/humidity in the room.
Google for "Home Wine Cellars" and you'll find out more than you probably want to know about how it's done.
You're right. a wine cellar is a different animal all together. It's not like throwing up 4 walls with a prehung door from the Despot.
Thanks for the responses, I'm just undecided between the use of a full vapor barrier or some thing with a very low perm rating on the two walls next to the outside block wall. I don't want to trap moisture, but I will be creating a high humidity environment in the wine cellar. Maybe designing these to walls with an air gap would allow some drying and air flow around between the layers of foam on the block and the foam in the stud wall.
The like the idea of the corbond and its perm rating, I'll have to check into that in my area.
Maybe if I don't let the moisture out of the cellar, I will only have to deal with any coming from the block and allowing some air flow around will allow drying.
Only time will tell, how the temps may fluctuate summer/winter!
Thanks
I'm gonna stick my nose in this one from the back side of the situation. In one of my prior houses, I had a wine cellar just like the pretty ones in the pictures. It was great for a while, as the cooling/humidifying unit worked properly. But you ever wonder why they only come with a 2 year limited warranty?
One day I came down to find that the unit went crazy, dropping the temp below freezing. Fortunately, I only lost a few cases of wine. So, I had me a long talk with a friend who was a real wine dealer who explained to me why wine was stored in caves for hundreds of years and was still good.
Find a place where the natural environment, temp and humidity, are suited to wine storage year round, and build shelves. I now have one of the ugliest wine cellars in the world, unless you actually care about the wine, in which case it's a beauty. Maintains temp betweem 52 and 57 all year round, with good humidity. No insulation. Nothing between the poured concrete and the shelving. And most importantly, no temp unit to wreak havoc with nature. But you won't be seeing it in architectural digest.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Interesting concept. Build a cave.
Geothermal systems rely on a constant earth temperature approx 55ºF at 4ft depth.
Would the concrete floor of an isolated (insulated) room maintain that temperature year round?
pretty much. according to where you are, and what surrounds it, it may go as high as 65 degrees, but for most it will remain between 50-60.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Red -
One of the wineries in Napa County did build their own cave several years ago. Basically, they ran a tunnel into the mountain and ran laterals off the main tunnel. I believe that they also sprayed everything with gunnite and ......ta-da....... they had a cave.
Have you seen this post
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=69166.1
Again, thanks for the replies, sites and conversations.
Our last house had a small area in the corner of the basement that was used for food and wine storage. Enclosed by two walls, one with a hollow core door, no insulation on the block wall with about 4 1/2' of the 7' was below ground. The temp varied from 50 in the winter to 70 plus in the summer, way to much for proper wine storage. The ground and air temp on the two walls were influenced to much by nature on the outside.
My current basement has about the same depth arrangement, so I am going to try to stop some of natures influence on the basement walls with insulation and hope the floor in the cellar will stabilize things a bit.
From what has been said, I'm now think no vapor barrier, but enough foam insulation to stop a dew point problem and some of natures influence on the two walls.
Two years ago, out of desperation, I needed to find a place to keep a sudden influx of froggy red. My basement is poured concrete but has been finished according to our code to the frost line, approximately 4.5 feet from basement floor. The house is built in a clay deposit that is unforgivable. <!----><!----><!---->
I used 3/4inch plywood, backed by 2 Styrofoam pads for the front and top of each cabinet. I store the wine in open racks. I left the basement floor and wall exposed and made sure I had a tight a fit as possible with the cabinet as I did not use a vapour barrier. The front panels are pulled out to get at the wine. Each cabinet holds about 100 bottles depending on their girth. <!----><!---->
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It was a simple,quick but very effective solution. Just using the natural cooling effect of the cement keeps the wine at an even temperature around 10-12 degrees Celsius without any problems of mould. <!----><!---->
That is amazing!
I missed the thread. Thanks.
Red
Thank you Red
I saw you thread right away but I am not an expert on the tecnical questions you were asking.I did read some of that technical stuff in a previous article of Fine Home Building.# 84 I think.I did look it up in their online index and sent it to you in a previous post.Rick Sheehan
Sheehan Remodeling and Construction
Hey there.
In the wine cellar application I use Corbond brand closed cell spray foam to form the entire envelope of the room. The only part not insulated / sealed with the Corbond is the door and where the unit is in the wall usually. Firring up the floor and doing that also is the best way to go.
The R value is 7.3 per inch thickness but more important than that is the perm rating of ~0.8. That's "semi-impermiable" range. Consider the fact that you now have a one piece contiguous thermal and vapor barrier in place. IMO this is the simplest and safest system.
Making the VB with plastic and then nailing on the interior finish just does not make sense to me. Of course I sell the foam for a living so you be the judge.
Stu
Have you checked the back issues of fine home building?
#48
Edited 2/18/2006 6:15 pm ET by prosecho
A friend is a lover of wine and had a room made in his basement to hold all the cases he buys. It's about 10 or 12 square. He'd probably make it bigger if he could do it again!
They just framed the room with 2x4s, fiberglass bats, and drywall, (no vapour barrier), with a small window insert type of air conditioner for temp control. Make sure there is a drain line from the AC. There is only at most, a 20 degree F temp difference between the wine room and the basement, so there are no moisture problems to speak of. Lots of people don't heat portions of there homes and have a similar temperature difference. If the basement is dry and the adjoining rooms are not generating excessive moisture then there shouldn't be condensation problems.