Replies

1. 
   DanT | May 04, 2006 04:33pm | #1

   So you want help pricing a job that you haven't seen, don't know for sure anything about and you don't know the local codes or regulations. 

   Frankly, my thought is you better pass on this one and work on smaller stuff till you get more comfortable with larger jobs.

   Only you know how much you need to make.  Only you know the pace that you work at.  And you will only know what you are dealing with when you have seen the job.  Heresay is of no value when pricing something.  It would be like me asking you how much to remodel my kitchen that you have never seen.  DanT

1. 
   smallmouth | May 04, 2006 05:23pm | #2

   Yeah, I guess It's not a clear question. Do you have any advice before I look at the job. I have 35 years exp. as a contractor having worked on project from 1 room to renovating 300k sq ft office spaces. But this is my first fire job.

1. 
   Tomrocks21212 | May 04, 2006 11:53pm | #3

   A lot depends on the insurance company. We used to go through the repairs wall by wall, and make a list. Smoke stains in the outlet? Replace it, at $XX.ZZ per unit. Shoe molding? price per foot. Baseboard, same thing. Took forever to write up and bid, but usually we got what it was worth to do the work. But my understanding (haven't done fire work for years) is that the insurance companies are sticking harder to their estimates, and it's getting tougher to get more out of them until hidden damage is discovered.
   My advice is to look at it, come up with a scope of work and a price, then compare it to the insurance estimate and scope and see how they compare.

1. 
   smallmouth | May 05, 2006 12:10am | #4

   Thanks very much.  From the conversation with the home owner, she has used an independant adjuster to deal with the ins. co.

1. 
   Tomrocks21212 | May 05, 2006 12:21am | #5

   Then I'd go in and catalog every item that needs replacing. The insurance companies really hate it when you're done the job, and the homeowner calls them and says, "I still smell smoke!". If you delineate all those items up front, and demonstrate that there's a potential for smoke odor later, they might go for it.
   Just remember, scrape through the char down to solid wood, then oil-base Kilz gets sprayed everywhere. And if you can see carbon through the Kilz, I guarandamntee ya the smell will come through later.

2. 
   BossHog | May 05, 2006 04:47pm | #17

   I've done trusses for a few fire jobs. And I absolutely HATE them. Plan on spending a lot of time on the jobsite with each trade trying to figure out what you're going to have to do. And definitely add plenty for contingencies. Once you start tearing stuff out you'll find more stuff, I'm sure. I always replaced every truss that even LOOKED like it might have damage. That's generally easier than waiting until they start setting trusses and find one more that they think needs replaced.It's a messy, thankless job that you and your guys won't enjoy doing. Don't bid it too low.
   Bumpersticker: If you can read this, I've lost my trailer.

2. 
   timkline | May 05, 2006 12:32am | #6

   are you sure it's an independent adjuster and not a public adjuster  ?   big difference.

   yes, the building inspector will have a say.  usually for standard 2x framing lumber, floor joists missing more than 10% of their thickness are sistered or replaced after scraping and sealing.    it's worth it to have the inspector come out to look after you have reviewed the site.

   if the adjuster is an independent and he writes his own estimate, he may be ok with you just writing a basic estimate if your bottom line numbers jive.  if they don't, then you will have to provide the usual dizzying detail.

    

   carpenter in transition

3. 
   craigf | May 05, 2006 03:10am | #7

   On a fire damage job I did, a cleaning company took care of the smoke damage. We had to work together. I did the carpentry and they insisted on doing any priming to encapsulate the smoke smell. I did the drywall,texture, paint etc.

   None of the framing was charred when the drywall was removed. If it had of, then the adjuster would have to inspect it to see what needed to be replaced. We don't have building codes here, so I can't say about the BI, but I would guess they would want to inspect it. CYA for everyone all around.

   It might be helpful to find out the exact scope of the work you are doing.

   The owner hired me T&M. The adjuster had some problems because I didn't itemize enough for him. I had detailed records of time and what I did on a certain day, but if I did several different catagories in a day, I didn't split them out. I haven't done a lot of insurance work, but it seems they have alot of hoops to jump through come check-cutting time. The adjuster came when I was gone, so I never saw him. I wished I had sat down with him and asked alot of questions

4. 
   maverick | May 05, 2006 04:23am | #8

   one fire job I did years ago we hired an independent adjuster. Thats the only way to go. He squeezed every penny out of the insurance company and we were paid well. the insurance company was not happy

   I spent weeks itemizing every last nail in the house.

1. 
   timkline | May 05, 2006 04:01pm | #14

   mav,

   you hired a public adjuster, not an independent

   an independent adjuster generally works directly for (as a subcontractor) an insurance carrier to adjust a loss. he/she is their agent and is paid a fee by the carrier to handle the claim.

   a public adjuster is hired by the property owner to handle the claim adjustment on their behalf. the homeowner pays the fee to the public adjuster, generally a percentage of the total amount paid by the insurance company.  this fee is agreed upon when the public adjuster is hired.  the fee ranges over a very broad spectrum depending on the size of the loss and what is involved.

   the value of public adjusters is a hotly contested subject in the business.

   what was the fee you paid yours and how long did it take to get settlement with the insurance company  ?

    carpenter in transition

1. 
   maverick | May 05, 2006 04:25pm | #16

   He got 10% and was worth every penny. Although it was'nt a quick settlement. the insurance co. dragged their feet for so long that they had to settle at the eleventh hour, which worked to our advantage

5. 
   blue_eyed_devil | May 05, 2006 04:50am | #9

   Smallmouth, my tip is this: You are working for the homeowner, not the insurance company. The insurance company's only job is to write the check. The amount of the check that they are going to write doesn't really concern you, or your bid. You have to bid that job, just like any other and bid it high enough so you make a profit and have enough to do a good job for the homeowner. The homeowner should not have to do anything. They are entitled to get their house back just the way it was.

   Once you understand that, you can align yourself with the homeowner and work together to help them get what is due to them. Homeowner's shouldn't have to hire the least expensive and least qualified contractors. They are entitled to the same type of contractor that Bill Gates would hire if his house burned and he turned in a claim. He wouldn't turn away the professionals and look for the rust bucket brigade to make him whole.

   The idea of using outside professional help to get what is due might be necessary, but maybe it wont. It all depends upon the adjuster.

   I just give a lump sum price. I don't itemize. In fact, I start with a letter that is an "intend to propose" sort of thing. It is an information letter that serves as a estimate. I extimate them high...very high, then wait to hear from the adjuster. When the adjuster calls, I tell him the same thing...."we are a professional general contractor, using skilled labor. Skilled labor isn't cheap and we don't cut prices or cut corners for anyone, including insurance work. Yes we charge a lot, but we are worth every penny of it. I understand that you want to pay less, but that is between you and your client. My price to them will not change, unless the scope of the project changes".

   Basically, stick to your guns and don't do any elaborate itemization that includes unit pricing. Unit pricing is absurd on remodeling work. Also, if the adjuster insists on some paperwork, ask him to sign a work order and tell him what your office clerk rates are ($55.00).

   It's okay to give some of your time away to your client, but you owe the insurance guy nothing. Don't let them use you or abuse you.

   Keep us posted.

   blue

    

1. 
   timkline | May 05, 2006 04:12pm | #15

   blue,

   do you have much success with this method you describe  ?

   i've seen quite a few contractors get tossed by the homeowners when they take this approach because the claim can't get settled.  somewhere after about 2 months of the contractor saying "No, I don't itemize, period." the homeowner gets sick of waiting for the adjuster and contractor to come to agreement.

   at this point, a starting date is nowhere in sight, and the homeowner has had enough and they hire someone else.

    carpenter in transition

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | May 06, 2006 03:05am | #18

   Tim, one of the fundamental truths about sales is that your not going to get every job you bid. So yes, sometimes I'm not the contractor of choice. But, when I do  an insurance job, it's very lucrative  and I have enough in the budget to get them everything they feel they need to become whole.

   Understand, that I don't go into the clients house telling them I'm going to cause a ruckus between them and their insurance man. I just go in and tell them exactly what they are going to need and get from me....and here's the price. It's a selling situation and I'm selling quality.

   That was my program, but I haven't done remodeling or insurance work in about 7 years. Maybe things have changed but I don't think I would approach it any differently today. Maybe I'd get tougher and raise my rates though. you gotta bid them like you don't want them.

   blue 

6. 
   RW | May 05, 2006 05:26am | #10

   I was about to say, then read Craigs - - he's on to a niche in the market there. There are cleaning companies that specialise in a couple of things - like fire damage, or mold remediation. Now the advantage to you linking up with them is pretty straightforward. They have the specialised training, the insurance policies, etc. They do all the nasty dirty stuff and when you show up, clean slate. Put it back together.

   Yes, personal experience here. Several years ago I got called when a local outfit was in a pinch to get some trim back in a basement. In the time since, we're pretty much linked. If your basement floods around here and you call them, I put it back together. The advantage to me, other than a constant flow of work, is that they deal with the insurance (and I never know or care what the adjuster thinks something is worth, a blessing, they fight that battle, not me), they get rid of the stinky sloppy muddy whatever, clean it, dry it, do whatever it is they do, and when I come in it's probably cleaner than it ever was in its life. They have people trained in dealing with mold, they have the driers, the chemicals, the outrageous insurance and work comp policies, I don't have to change a thing in how I'm set up.

   And you end up helping out each other. You do good work, they get more calls. And you can help them with figuring out how to be efficient at things that aren't really in the cleaning guru's repetoire. I got them turned on to zip wall. They got me interested in negative air machines. I remember a guy who used to try to take out drywall by snapping a line, and then cutting it, hundreds of feet of it, with a razor blade. I said hey if we're going to patch anyway and you have to remove the bottom two feet, snap your line at 24 1/2 to save me all that extra cutting and heres how to use a sawzall and not cut wires and pipes. Can you imagine the labor savings you can provide?

   "Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | May 05, 2006 06:17am | #11

   Great suggestion RW!

   If things get really, really slow, I'm going to contact some mop up companies.

   blue 

1. 
   RW | May 05, 2006 06:28am | #12

   um, . . . is dat a slam?"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | May 05, 2006 02:06pm | #13

   Nope, no slam RW. I just like the idea of working closely with someone already heavily involved in the industry. I know that there is a lot of money in fire restoration work, and there's a good chance that one of our local company's needs to create a working synergy with a construction firm. I've overseen a firejob or two (I haven't done a lot, but some) and one of the parts I know I don't like is the initial cleanup.

   Like I said, that is a great tip.

   blue 

7. 
   qtsam2 | May 06, 2006 07:03am | #19

   i worked for a mold/fire restoration company for a few years and can tell you insurance work on fire jobs here in ohio are big profit margins. alot of sound advice in the other posts. i will say this though the cleaning aspect is where the profit really is. some of the standards for bidding/pricing that adjusters and restoration "experts" use is called exactimate, xactware, and acuscope. as anther poster said you work for the customer not the insurance company can't say that enough! the insurance companies (allstate comes to mind) will try to bully and refuse payment a good number of times because they will drag the payment out for a super long time, they can afford to, can you? on the flip side sometimes payment is quick.  the adjuster is key. as also said earlier the restoration companies are alaways looking for good allies(carpenters) to work with. it is critical to not get call backs and such for the restoration company because their buisness is so specialized and specific that a bad rep will haunt them. for example a fllooded basemnet, restoration company cleans/dry's the place.if they do a bad job  the insurance agent and or adjuster, family members etc.  will tell their homeowners,friends and no one will call them period. but you may be awesome but if the restoration company is crappy then it will reflect on you so if you ever go that route choose carefully.

   P.S. sorry for the novel! LOL

   Sam

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | May 06, 2006 04:59pm | #20

   the insurance companies (allstate comes to mind) will try to bully and refuse payment a good number of times

   Sam, you make a good point and that is one that I always used when discussing the situation with homeowners. I ask them if they think their insurance company will be trying to settle for more, or less than what is really due to them. Of course since most people are pessimistic in situations like this, they normally think the worst. I then explain that having a professional GC will help them protect their most precious investment (their home) 100 time better than an insurance adjuster that gets paid to pay less for claims than is due.

   When the homeowner starts thinking about that, they realize that it is in their best interests to have someone on THEIR side, when talking about putting their house back together.

   blue