Replies

1. 
   fdampier | May 03, 2002 04:16am | #1

   It's like wizzing into the wind.  the smart thing to do is turn around, you get a lot less on you.

     Find out who really makes the decisons. Often it's a clerk, the building inspector etc.  the committee just rubberstamps stuff.  That's the person you need on your side.  You know how to make friends.  do it.  Kiss butt, take him to dinner, whatever it takes. don't attack his choices.  don't evan directly ask if you can whatever.  Express an interest in understanding better what he wants to achieve.  What are the guidelines etc. 

     He's probably miffed that you didn't come to him first. getting him over that is your first hurdle.  That or plan on wizzing on yourself a lot.   Chances are once he understands you better things will go easier.

2. 
   sjmerrette | May 03, 2002 04:55am | #2

   Is this your house? or a clients? It sounds like it may be yours if I'm reading your post properly. Do you really want the house that bad? Tell the committee that since they want to do YOUR house THEIR way you've decided to just leave the vinyl siding, vinyl windows and no trim. then sell it and move someplace where the government isn't trying to live your life for you.

   Steve

   S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA

   Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.

3. 
   Schelling | May 03, 2002 05:05am | #3

   I don't know what the legal authority of this committee is and what enforcement power they have but is what they are asking for really a big problem. It may be a big pain in the a** for some of the homeowners but some historic districts really do look great and I am sure that the property values reflect this. If you don't agree, you should probably follow Steve's advice and save yourself the aggravation.

4. 
   tuffy | May 03, 2002 05:19am | #4

   If it really is circa 1890, then Greek Revival would be extremely unlikely, as that style petered out sometime around the civil war.  However, it could very well be a generic Italianate--even though the Italianate style peaked in the 1870's, some simple structures with a definite Italianate influence were built as late as the early 1900's.

   I've don't recall ever seeing a Victorian with 9" clapboards--always 4" or maybe 6". 

   Six over six on a late Victorian?  Never.  Ever.  For Italianate: one over one, two over two, or two over one.  Even Colonial Revival and Shingle Style houses would most likely have had six over one.  I've seen people put Colonial style windows on Victorian houses before, and it's the visual equivalent of chewing tin foil.

   So, either the building records are incorrect and your building is actually of Greek Revival vintage (and I'm not sure I've ever even heard of such a thing as a Greek Revival style row house), or your historic district committee is on the right track.

   It's important to get the details right when restoring historic structures.

   Post a picture--let's see this house.

1. 
   rjw | May 05, 2002 01:21pm | #17

   "If it really is circa 1890, then Greek Revival would be extremely unlikely, as that style petered out sometime around the civil war."

   Must depend on where you live.  I can think of a bunch (10+) Greek revivals built between 1880 and 1920 within 4-5 blocks of where I live in NW Ohio.

5. 
   JonFish1 | May 03, 2002 05:28am | #5

   It sounds like your house came with alot of protective covenants attached and you should have been made aware of these prior to the contract signing.  I think your house sounds great and is definitely worth the trouble of a good restoration.  Despite what the Steves of the world say, the people on the committee are typically not government folks, they are people who give a crap about preserving this country's architectural heritage and they generally operate on a voluntary basis.  If I were you, I would try to understand their views while lobbying for the use of alternate materials.  Ultimately, if you follow through with a historically accurate restoration and get the house on the National Historic Register you will not only have a sweet house, but one that will sell for substantially more than you paid for it.   If not, you'll get alot of headaches fighting a committee that is only trying to benefit your own neighborhood and you might wind up with something that looks like every other cookie cutter house on a suburban cul-de-sac.

1. 
   sjmerrette | May 03, 2002 05:55am | #6

   Jfish, when these people were put into a position of telling people what they can and cannot do to their own homes they became government.

   I like the fact that people are trying to restore vintage architecture but when these "committees" start getting a little power they sometimes abuse it. alot of times it's because they are not informed on the availability of new materials but alot of times it's because they are just plain set against anything they don't and won't understand. stubborn ingnorance is the worst kind.Steve

   S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA

   Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.

1. 
   xMikeSmith | May 03, 2002 06:37am | #7

   if your house is in an historic district.. and the assh*les on the committee won't allow modern substitues that will replicate the period & style.. then your best option is just as steve described...

   and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out of town..

   anytime you hear a proposal to create an historic district.. be very concerned.. they all end up with unreasonable people interpreting and writing the rules...

   fine ,if your business is historic preservation.. but not much good to you if you are a homeowner with a limited budget..

   move out of the district.. or join up an go along...

   but hey, whadda i no ?

   Mike Smith

   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   rjw | May 05, 2002 01:24pm | #18

   "they all end up with unreasonable people interpreting and writing the rules..."

   "but hey, whadda i no ?"

   No need to ask; the answer is obvious.

2. 
   PhillGiles | May 03, 2002 06:54am | #8

   I live close to a historic district and there are several more not far away. As "jayfish" says, for the most part these committees are just honest folks trying to do what's right within a specific mandate. It does no good to antagonize them unless you've caught them in historical fiction: in my limited observation, this seems to occur when one person takes too much power in the committee; cut that person out of the herd and crush them with facts if you feel that strongly about it; otherwise, friendly compromise will go a long way..

   Phill Giles

   The Unionville Woodwright

   Unionville, Ontario

6. 
   grantlogan | May 03, 2002 02:47pm | #9

   My advice coincides with Frenchy's. Often, if you blow a kiss at their ass you don't actually have to put your lips on it. Tell them what you're trying to achieve and ask for suggestions. Usually, if you give in on some issues, they'll give on others. Like anyone else, the better you get to know them, the easier they are to work with.

   Good luck.

   gl

   Work hard, play hard, sleep hard, wear glasses if you need 'em.

1. 
   AndyEngel | May 03, 2002 02:59pm | #10

   Yet another reason I live 1000 ft. off the road in the woods. Good luck.

   Andy Engel, Forum moderator

7. 
   Seth_Frankel | May 03, 2002 04:01pm | #11

   They are not pulling there suggestions out of nothing. The historic committee, or landmarks board, or whatever they go by has a design guideline that was adopted long before you showed up with your project. Ask for a copy of the design guidelines, review the document, make your material and style selections based on the document and present your project with the document in hand. If you can site the document and justify your decisions with that then there's no argument.

   The members of this committee are likely local residents with an interest and expertise in preservation, not evil agents of the state as others may feel. Yes, sometimes you'll run into a difficult group or a rather contentious project but if you are armed with the facts, photos, references and the guidelines you'll save yourself and the committee plenty of time, which you'll all appreciate.

   The need and rationale for historic preservation are well justified (neighborhood intergrity, posterity, historic reference, even $ value). Feel proud to be doing your part in maintaining and improving a structure with this importance.

   Good luck!

   Seth

1. 
   cameraman | May 03, 2002 04:39pm | #12

   I agree with the post from Seth Frankel. I know it hard having a board tell you what you can or cannot do with your own house, but it's that way for a reason. Historic restoration! Do the research of your houses history, photos, ect... And along with the comissions guide lines use this as your bible. If you budget allows contract a architect, I know when working on a older home the budget is thrown out the door. But this might give you some clout in dealing with the commission, esp. in dealing with the use of newer more modern materials. Materials that will last longer with less mantainace, and a much better appearance. So in 25-50 years latter your are not back at the commission doing this all over again. Good luck, have fun, and when it's all over it will be a win-win-win, the commission, you, and the community. You are working with a part of history, to keep it alive.

2. 
   bobl | May 03, 2002 04:42pm | #13

   I hane not had personnal experience with this type group but had a boss who did and we spent time in some interesting discussions.

   they are not all the same but they can be doing something other than "historical"  You need to find out what they're motives are. use all the good advice you've been given.

   In my boss's case (this is new england) the commitee insisted all houses be painted white.  That is not historiclly correct but it does meet the "image" of a new england town per hollywood.

   small town politics are the worstbobl          Volo Non Voleo      Joe's cheat sheet

8. 
   tjcarcht | May 03, 2002 05:28pm | #14

   Lumpy - In 1983 our town (settled 1696) passed a Historic District Ordinance.  I was invited to become a founding member of the Historic Preservation Review Committee, where I served for over ten years.  That ordinance, and ensuing review process, has been one of the great saving graces of our downtown, in both protecting structures yet allowing for a reasonable standard of development.  Although we were first condemned by some as "the Quaint Police," after the first 5 or 6 years, all of the realtors were advertising property as "located in the Historic District" etc.  We had a set of detailed guidelines to follow, although there were words like "appropriate to the height of other structures, " etc. to allow for interpretation.  The Committee consisted of preservation professionals, local business people, residents and architects with the type of member specified by ordinance to ensure diversity.  It was, and still is, an advisory board, meaning that decisions may be appealed to the local boards of legal jurisdiction, like zoning and planning.  Nearly all of our decisions in those first years were unanimous, and I can't remember any of them being appealed or anyone coming away from a hearing feeling hammered.  I finally felt that I had to resign since my practice involved more frequent projects in the district and I would be on the other side of the table too often.

   Seth has responded to you in a very reasonable way, assuming that the local board is also acting without prejudice.  Finding a period photo is a gold mine - it puts all speculation and petty preservation authoritarianism to bed.  It does sound like your committee is a bit strict - are they adhering to their own adopted standards?  I've never had a problem with Marvin 7/8" SDL + spacer bar double-hungs, for instance.  That being said, an 1890 Victorian-era/Italianate house would normally have had 2/2 sash with large lights - that might explain being rejected for 6/6, which would look inappropriate on an Italianate house.  Although you might not think so, the window muntins and type of window are absolutely character-defining for this period.   I agree with them on not using composite materials.  I agree with them on narrower claps, too.  *Sorry* <G>.

   Are they free to do as they please?  Probably, within the guidelines of their ordinance.  If there is an Historic District, then the building is probably listed within the district file as "contributing" etc., and is therefore not eligible for individual listing on the National Register as suggested.  It is the local ordinance, in any case, that has the teeth - National Register only protects from the use of government funds in a non-appropriate manner.  Did you stop to consider the possibility that they might have knowledge that you do not, and that their recommendations/requirements may be more appropriate than your approach?  Before you reject them as know-nothings, you might reconsider your anger at being told what to do with your property (which you knew in advance they could do) and look at their requirements as preservation guidelines worth considering.

   T. Jeffery Clarke

   Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/3/2002 10:42:20 AM ET by Jeff Clarke

1. 
   r_ignacki | May 05, 2002 12:07am | #15

   why not take this historic stuff a little furthur, perhaps, maybe the only cars that can park in the historic areas can only be say, pre-1939? , hell , why not the clothes the peaple wear? nah, that woodn't work.....  

1. 
   UncleDunc | May 05, 2002 12:37am | #16

   The 'quaint police' will disagree, but that's funny. And what about kitchen appliances, and lights. Outhouses in the back yard?

   Edited 5/4/2002 5:59:38 PM ET by UNCLEDUNC

2. 
   user-6507 | May 06, 2002 03:54am | #19

   Thank you for the reply. I made an error in the original post, the date is 1870 not 1890, sorry. My beef isn't the style of the window, it's that I don't feel that the house is Italianate and since the house is basicly a plain box now, what difference would it make what style it is when finished, especially since I have to pay for it and live in it. The only photo of the building shows the fake brick asphalt which I think was an attempt in the past to make it look Italianate. The part I understand the least is the clapboard reveal, how can that be wrong, its the only original part of the house that's left. Another thing that I didn't mention, is that the line on the historic district map runs down the middle of my street which means that when I stand on my front stoop everything across the street, including street lights is very modern looking. I want to do the right thing so I guess what I need to know, is if someone could suggest a reference book on urban houses of this period, even the book the city uses doesn't cover row houses. Or maybe instead of changing my windows I'll just throw myself out one.

1. 
   fdampier | May 06, 2002 06:26am | #20

   There are two ways to deal with committees.  I tried the first way,  which is insisting it's my house, I paid for it they didn't,  about ten years later I finally wized up and sat down with those who really had the power and ask politely and quietly asked what was possible, what could I really do, and how do you go about doing it.

     Your choice fight those with the power and spend years, or you can change.  it's your call.

2. 
   rjw | May 06, 2002 08:21am | #21

   Was it historic district when you bought it?  Didn't you know that?

3. 
   tuffy | May 06, 2002 08:33am | #22

   With a date of 1870, and original 9" siding, I'd lean more toward something Greek Revival-ish. 

   Admittedly, a lot of work in Historic Preservation (like other branches of history) can become a process of interpretation and compromise.  At it's best, historic preservation is more than just saving old buildings--it's an attempt to capture and maintain a sense of place.  This seems especially important with the present homogenization of America.  There's a depressing sameness from one community to the next, as unique original buildings are being stripped away and replaced with identical McDonald's restaurants and strip malls from coast to coast. 

   An example of the sort of thing I'm talking about would be the Haymarket neighborhood a couple of blocks from where I live.  This was the old warehouse and wholesale district of our city where, in the mid-80's, people started moving in and opening coffee houses, small galleries, and restaurants...that sort of thing.  It became a great asset for our city--farmer's market on the weekend, community theater performances--a really nice place to sit with a cup of coffee on a converted loading dock and socialize.  Above all, this area maintained the distinct texture and feeling that it always had.  That is, until just a couple of years ago, when the big corporate names started moving in and driving out the locals--Applebee's, Ruby Tuesday's, Old Chicago.  Now the neighborhood has lost it's appeal--it's become something very artificial feeling--a mockery of itself.  Authentic history and grittiness has been stripped and replaced with the artificial contrivance of a T.G.I. Friday's.  It's almost downright Disney-esque.

   Much of this loss was due to our Historic Preservation Committee kind of tying their own hands.  They were too lenient with people in the early years about renovations, appropriate signage, canopies, sidewalk cafes, etc.  So when the outside corporations started coming in, they weren't able to do much to prevent ever more drastic changes along the same lines, as it would have been hypocritical.

   This might bear some relation to your own historic preservationists being so conservative about the use of alternative building materials.  They have to be careful about what kinds of precedents they set.  You might with to use non-traditional materials in a wholly appropriate and acceptable way, but the next guy might then be able to argue that since you got a variance, he should get one too--and he might wish to do something that compromises his building and the whole neighborhood.

   Edited 5/6/2002 1:36:47 AM ET by Tellurian

   Edited 5/6/2002 1:46:26 AM ET by Tellurian