Help:milling tree for floors and counter
We are having two enormous old trees milled next week. One is a pine with quite alot of heart wood. We think we want to use them for our floors, but are a bit nervous.I guess I’m looking for some guidance from someone with some experience.
We hope to do wide plank (10-12 inches) and have read from one source that you can mill it 1/2 inch and then plane it to 3/8; glue it down and use finishing nails to hold it down until the glue dries. We are planning to have it quarter sawn. We have also read good things about tung oil instead of using polyurethane. Has anyone done this or does it sound risky to you. If so, in what way?
Also, we have a black walnut that we are considering making into a bar top. Any thoughts/suggestions on this. We can buy black walnut for flooring for $1.75 a BF (not planed or T&G) for flooring also and have wondered if this would make a much better floor. We could probably only get it 6-8 inches wide.
Thank you so much for any input
Nancy
Replies
"We hope to do wide plank (10-12 inches) .... We are planning to have it quarter sawn."
how big a tree? how big a floor? - by its nature, quartersawing will end up with a variety of widths and 10-12" boards will represent only a percentage of the material -
cut 1/2" and plane to 3/8" - this means one rough side as 1/8" is not enough to smooth both sides - and may be marginal to get one side clean - what kind of mill?
drying/curing of the lumber will be critical to keeping movement after installation to a minimum - do you plan to have your sawyer kiln dry it? -
traditional wide plank flooring is face nailed - finish nail to hold while the glue sets up? ya - maybe.... glue + wide planks + 20 years = ? I'll let someone else comment on this -
walnut vs pine "... have wondered if this would make a much better floor"... what specie of pine do you have? - walnut makes a fine floor, as long as the dark color agrees with you - some species of pine are marginally soft for flooring, but might not be a big deal depending on location/traffic -
by its nature, quartersawing will end up with a variety of widths and 10-12" boards will represent only a percentage of the material
That applies to any sawing method....even with flatsawing the sawyer will slab off boards until he starts seeing decay, then he will turn the log......there will be a lot of variation in width and many of the boards will be a lot smaller than 10" even with a big tree......with quartersawing, the boards will be even smaller than with flatsawing. The only way to get 10" or 12" widths is at the edger or a tablesaw later, and probably the majority of the boards won't make it. The lumber people sort all the wide boards, medium, and narrow from may trees to make up bundles where you could make a floor all from 10".....you'll never get enough form one tree to do it.
I don't understand why sawing so thin...agree with David that 1/8 is not enough allowance to clean up on both sides in the planer. We have a double planer here, which most of our flooring people are using, but we usually take off around 3mm (which is basically 1/8), just from the bottom head alone. Also, if the board is being sawn that thin, depending how good the setup is and what type of saw, you may find there is a quite a lot of thickness variation......may aerage out to 1/2", but what will you do with all the thin boards that
Agree with Notchman that the kiln schedules are very important, and if it was my floor I would definitely be kilndrying it.
Re: gluing, I used to be a skeptic on that, but the Europeans typically glue there floors with good results....the glue forms a moisture barrier. They think we are nuts to nail it. But I doubt they would try it with 10-12" boards.
If you want to do it with lumber from one tree, I'd do one of two things.....take your random width boards, which is what you will get off the saw anyway.....rough sort them by width, then have them sawn/edged to several standard widths....say 12", 10", 9", 8", 7", etc. then install them so that every course in the floor has a different width, but all the boards in one course are the same width. make sense?
Or, just have a flooring mill put them through their process, maybe go for something wider than usual....4-5" or whatever. Your floor will all be the same colour, but you will get better yield that way. Better yield the smaller you go.
And I would saw it thicker.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
"That applies to any sawing method"well, technically I agree - - practically, if I have a 'huge tree' (per OP - I define 'huge' as at least 30") I can flat saw and get all but 4 or 8 boards 10 or 12" (probably double this if I were to saw 1/2")- - this assumes a wonderful straight log and getting everything out of it but the squeal - quartersawing, at least on my bandmill, requires quartering the log, then sawing each quarter individually - the first board off will be ~2" wide, and a 30" log will yeild a half dozen or so quartersawn boards of 10" or wider per quarter of log - with twice that amount of narrower boards - "there's enough for everyone"
David Doud,
OK another way to get quarter sawn wood is thru and thru thru the middle It yields up wider boards if you are willing to either accept heart sawn or cut the boards in half at the middle only a relative handfull of boards are true quarter sawn but a fair number are usable..
That require a really big blade or a smaller log to be practical.. But you do wind up with wider boards from the tree..
Edited 3/20/2008 10:23 am ET by frenchy
The sawmills I get into (a fair number), with hardwood and pine, they saw for grade, and all the patterns I know result in a fairly high percentage of boards that aren't too wide....after the first face is sawn and as soon as they see degrade, they'll keep turning the log as often as they need to to get the highest grade board. How are you doing it (I'm guessing you have a woodmizer or something similar)?......slabbing one face, then turning it once to slab the other face, with the rest coming off the width of the cant? Maybe you have better logs there.....I couldn't say here that you could guarantee a majority of wide boards off even the big logs....especially after you get two straight edges on them.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
ya - sawing for grade is a whole nother animal - I've got a woodmizer - but I'm an artist, not a production operation - taking a tree and turning it into a floor is right down my alley - I'll leave production sawing for people that enjoy it - there's technique to it, even how I saw - if one log is one floor, I'll try to keep the board quality consistant, rather than trying to get the best board for the cut - I'll post a pict of some logs I've lumberjacked this winter, after I take some - I felled one real nice walnut - 18' butt log, 24" diameter at the top, straight as an arrow - between it and the 4-5 logs from above the butt, I'll be in walnut for quite a while - I feel about it like Blodgett and VG fir - "there's enough for everyone"
Go over to “knots” the FWW board to get info on stickering the freshly cut boards.
Initially they’re going to have a very high moisture content and you need to let them dry properly before you can use them for anything. Stickering is basically stacking the boards on top of one another with spacers between each layer of boards for air to circulate and dry out the wood.
It needs to be done under cover of a roof if air dry and its going to take months.
Your other alternative is have a lumber mill put it in there kiln for you if you can find a local mill to do it. This option will take about 48-72 hours.
As for walnut it will NOT make very good flooring (unless you like the rustic look where every scratch and ding will show). As hardwoods go, walnut is one of the softer ones.
For a bar top you can probably get away with it.
dan19
However black walnut will be much harder than her pine floor.. If you want look at my black walnut floor over at 86920.13
Please note that more than 2 years later my 150# dog who refuses to clip his toenails has only managed to make a few dents in that wood.. Shoes have no impact..
Rough sawing wide planks as thin as you describe means that you're going to have to get it to a kiln or stickered properly right away or it will be subject to twisting and curling.
Sticker each species with the same wood as what you're stickering....if you use walnut sticks to stack the pine, the pine will pick up stain from the walnut....and vice/versa.
If you have it kiln dried, each species will have it's own kiln schedule....the walnut will be dried at a slower schedule than the pine.
They can be dried together (in separate stacks) but at the slower schedule for the walnut.....make sure the kiln operator knows what he's doing.
If you have time, and the space, you can build a small dehumidification kiln and dry it yourself very successfully....small kiln plans can be found in one of the Taunton books about wood....essentially a collection of Fine Woodworking articles....and there are a couple of small kiln designs that are inexpensive to build.
Also, Google up the US Forest Service laboratory and they have a lot of kiln resources.
I would get your ducks lined up before you saw the logs so you can get all your wood in process right away.
Have fun and good luck!
Go for the tung oil - we use Watco when we can find it; or Behr in the two-tone blue gallon metal cans at Depot.
Got about 4000 sq.ft. of it here on these old floors - depending on your expectations, don't worry about that "re-coat every 5 years" stuff. We've got as much as 16 years on some floors - even with dogs and kids. Same experience at SIL's and FIL's.
Read the directions - DO NOT leave standing oil on the floor more than the 45-60 minutes during each application sequence - it will never get un-gummy.
Forrest
nem,
Do you understand all the work required to achieve this? I mean once home from the sawmill with the wood to do 500 sq.ft. will take you roughly 150 to 175 man hours. of work. In addition it will take roughly a year to air dry to the point where you can start to think about using it as flooring. That could be shortened down to a month if kiln dried..
Second I can tell that you really don't understand about flooring with some of the sizes you want to work with.. NO offence please! I'm not trying to rain on your parade Your ideas have real merit and will be specila when you are finished but please do it the correct way..
If you do as you intend the wood will split! 3/8ths isn't thick enough and it's too thick..
3/8ths thick is an engineered wood thickness.. not a single sheet of wood.. Pine is a very soft wood and will dent easily..
IN addition solid wood shrinks and swells a lot during the year as humidity changes.. The wider the board the more the movement. Gym floors are nailed together tightly but they are only 2 1/2 inch wide, 10 to 12 inches will move a lot.. if you quarter saw the wood that will reduce swelling some but not enough to be able to just butt everything together and nail it.
You have to account for that wood movement.. glue and finish nails won't do that.
The black walnut at that price is a great deal. If you'd like you can look at my floor and see what it will look like. Go over to the left hand side of this page and click on advanced search.. scroll down untill you get to the number and insert 86920.13 that's my black walnut floor not as hard as oak or maple but a lot harder than pine..
Nancy,
Very good input here. I would add to what Notchman said, be SURE to use DRY STICKERS, not green. Any variety of green wood will stain your lumber. And the sticker stain runs deep, you won't be able to sand it out.
If you seal the end grain, even with latex paint, you'll avoid a lot of checking.
Greg
Agree, and one step further for some woods like ash and maple..try to use the same species for stickers..oak stickers can leech tannins into a nice white maple board, I have seen sticker stain go completly through a 1'' thick board.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Gentlemen,
I can't thank you enough for your expertise. Here is the link to the post on Wood Web where we got the idea for the 1/2" approach from someone who does this regularly; but I would like to have someone else validate this approach before we make the investment of wood, time and money. Doesn't look like I found it. If you have a different opinion after reading this link, please let me know.
The two trees are over 30" in diameter, one being a Loblolly Pine and the other a Yellow Poplar. The Walnut is about 15". We thought we could use the poplar for trim. Any other suggestions for how to use all this wood. Is it very time-consuming to plane all this wood? We just planned to get it rough sawn on site and air dry it. Thanks for the great tips on how best to sticker it.
The black walnut floors posted (I believe by Frenchy) are beautiful! Do you mind telling us how you did these? Are they tongue and grooved, how thick, screwed and plugged....? You are right that I don't know much about floors...no offence taken. We don't have 150 man hours to invest and we have close to 2000 square feet to floor. House is 3300 SF.
Thank you so much for your time and expertise.
Nancy
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/GluedDown_Wide_Pine_Flooring.html
I took a look at your link. Unless I am confused, it sounded like they were talking about white pine. There is a world of difference between white pine and loblolly pine. Loblolly pine is a yellow pine, which tends to be much harder but also less dimensionally stable than white pine. I think it would make beautiful flooring, but I'd use it at a full 3/4 inch tongue and groove. Where I live, there are small mills that can kiln dry and mill flooring for you if you bring them rough lumber. Perhaps there are some in your area too.I know a few people who have done what you are talking about. It's a ton of work, and unless using your own wood has sentimental value for you, you will wish you just went and bought some wood at the lumberyard. Not saying you shouldn't do it, mind you, but don't do it if you are just trying to save money.
Marson,
Great input. We have no sentimental attachment to our trees...just hate to not put them to use and hoped to save money....Do you think milling our poplar for trim would be cost-effective? Or should we just see what we can get from them and buy everything at the big box?
Also, Home Depot sells white pine in wide planks, not T&G, cheap. Would these make nice floors if we could live with the dents? We love the old house, wide-plank look?
Thanks, again,
Nancy
Whether it is cost effective or not depends on how much you value your time. Yes, no doubt you will save money, but usually you end up with less wood than you thought for more work than you thought. Consider that a thirty inch log 16' long only yields 3 or 400 board feet and some of that will not be usable. Wide white pine at Home Depot? That would surprise me, but then I've been wrong before. Most of the pine I see at Home Depot is radiata, which is a plantation grown tropical species.You would certainly have to have a high tolerance for funkiness if you use wide boards without tongues and grooves. Boards would cup, warp, and edges would come up, maybe leading to splinters. You would have big, big gaps between the boards. But then I don't really have any experience with the wide pine flooring, except seeing it on This Old House once. I think part of the reason it worked is that they had old growth eastern white pine at their disposal. If I was going that route, I'd router a groove in the edges and ends of each board and insert a spline to create a tongue and groove effect. That wouldn't be easy, but it would help the wood behave like a floor and not a bunch of boards nailed down.
You could search out a wide-plank floor specialist.....probably every region has one or more, and they can supply stable, wide flooring that often has been reclaimed, either from previous use as a floor, or made from salvaged industrial timbers. That would give you that old-house look you want.
Polar is great for painted trim, at least yellow poplar is (but it's not a real poplar). The real poplars, some people like it, some don't....depends on the species, region etc. Sometimes it is pretty fuzzy and hard to work with.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Would you cut it 3/4 inch? We are using it for trim and bookshelves. We are hoping we won't have to plane it. We are asking the guy to use a new blade and hope to just sand it. We will be painting. Do you have any , suggestions for milling? Would the pine be good for trim and bookshelves? Thank you for your help.
Nancy
Personally, I would saw it 1", and figure on having it planed to 3/4". With inconsistencies in thickness from the sawing, and the way wood moves around as it dries, once it gets below a certain moisture content, it will have warped and twisted at least a little out of flat. The planing will correct that, and make it much easier to work with. You'll still have plenty of sanding to do, but I'd find a shop with a planer or double planer and have them surface it.
The pine would probably make very nice trim, as long as you like the 'knotty pine' look. Good luck.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Having sawmilled quite a bit of lumber with a bandmill, if you want to finish with a 3/4" board you better start with at least 1". Air drying boards the rule of thumb is one year per inch.The edges and faces will not be match with millwork(planing faces,joining and ripping edges.)And even with high quality logs and most aren't, 20 t o 50 % propably won'y be usable for one reason or another.
If this is a first time project with your own sawn wood i'd have to reccomend using it for trim.
nem.
I'll be glad to share with you.. To do floors from wood you must either buy it milled ready to install as most do or in my case I had access to some very cheap wood.. (not poor quality wood but great wood that was cheaply priced)
Then I milled it myself.
The milling process is you take a board (start with an inch thick board) and run it through a planer.. that's a device which will smooth off one side at a time.. While it would be possible to hand plane those boards the time needed would be monumental. We're talking epic! Plus require a talent which has to be learned.. A significant part of that talent is the ability to tune your plane and sharpen it.. something that needs to be done frequently.
Once the board is smooth then you need the edges straight and square. that' s something you do with a jointer.
Following that you need to put a tongue on one side and a groove on the other (hence tongue & groove)
That is done on something called a shaper. While you might be able to do it with a router the time required would increase significantly. In addition the potential for error increases with a router..
My planer jointer shaper and table saw I bought from a company that sells such equipment cheaply yet they cost me over $4000. when finished I'll sell them and recover about half of what I spent.. In addition you'll need blades and cutters etc..add a few more hundred. plus a fair bit to resharpen..
Now once the floor was made you need to cut it to fit. I used a sliding compound mitre saw. (about $900 with stand) Installing was harder than a regular floor would be because the width of the flooring. I choose to screw and plug. That required a hole then a counterbored hole and fnally plug's The plugs I simply cut from the waste wood of my cut offs. Drilling and counterboring all the holes was laborious, it was a full days work to lay 100 sq.ft. and then when I was finished it was three full days of my wife and I glueing and installing the plugs. A half day to chisel them flush. and a full day to sand the floors. Sanding the floors was made worse because somehow there were two differant thickness of boards made and I didn't notice it untll well into doing this. (beginners error)
Finishing it was remarkably simple, insanely simple!
IN total time from unloading the wood untill I was standing on 1000 sq.ft. of flooring was nearly a solid months work which since I worked full time took me months of part time effort..
I did make my job harder because I tried to stretch the wood I had into doing more.. Instead of doing tongue and groove which wastes about a 1/2 inch of the width of the original board. I did groove and groove and fit a spline.. That decision alone added another 60 hours (estimate) to the job.. But I've got planks over 12 inches wide!
Ignoring my labor and the cost of the machinery My total 1000sq.ft. of black walnut floor cost me just about $250.00
My labor was free because I actaully enjoy this diversion from my normal job and the machinery was all needed for thousands of other jobs required to build this place..
MY sister on the other hand had the wood she recieved from me professionally milled.. It cost her a dollar a bd.ft. she installed about 1200 bd.ft. and while she and her husband did the work themselves they have close to $2200 in the floor.. They used a more expensive finish and a differant wood but priced similar..
As I said flooring thinner than an inch thick (it finishes up about 3/4 of an inch thick) is risky because it can easily split and one of the things you must accept with flooring is that it eventually will get scuffed up and worn.. requiring resanding and refinishing.
You must tongue and groove wood. used for flooring, wood shrinks and swells with moisture.. pine more so than most hardwoods.. Moisture comes from humidity and showes we take, cooking, and just normal living. It dryes out in the winter from heating and in the summer from sunshine.. the tongue and groove I spoke of earlier alows the wood to shrink and prevent you from seeing the subfloor. Otherwise you'd have this view of the pink rosin paper used under the flooring or the subfloor itself.
But what happens is when you refinish that floor you quickly get to the point where the wood is worn enough that the groove is too thin and starts to splinter up. Then the floor is junk.. needs to be replaced.. 1 inch boards delay that for a long time.. If you use normal strip flooring.. the kind that they install on gym floors you can install the floring with a flooring nailer in a tiny fraction of the time I needed to screw and plug..
I'll spend even more time,, a lot more time, doing my great room
That will have boards up to 22 inches wide and because they are rare burl they will be framed with brass and bloodwood then installed as a picture frame of wide hard maple boards up to 19 feet long..
NO visable fasteners! Instead I will drill through the subflor and install the screw up from the bottom.
That floor I expect will take me more than year to complete.. A year of every night and all day saturday and sunday's work.
Wow! I think we'll buy some flooring, and just finish it. I think we'll have our wood milled for trim. Thank you so much for your help.
Nancy
Don't be discouraged by Frenchy's Sysiphysian ( ?sp ) description. If you knew how labor intensive his whole house was then you would realize that normal mortal humans don't have to do such things. ( Frenchy, I hope you know that I am attempting a humorous jerk of your chain :) )
I made a cherry floor from a wild cherry tree and although it was labor intensive, it is not beyond the ability of most DIY with the help of non production tools. I used my Bosch table saw,my Dewalt planer and my Porter Cable router.
All the other advice above is reasonable. You need to start out with your lumber at 1 1/2 inch then dried you'll lose some thickness then you need to allow enough to plane it smooth and end up with 3/4 inch flooring.
Frenchy is right about one thing though, and that is shellac is easy to use.
You won't save much if any money if you don't already own the tools, but you will like yourself everytime you look at your floor.
MGMaxwell,
No offence taken, even without the friendly note.. I do more work because I'm one of those belt and suspender guys plus I don't want to ever failing to do something to be the cause of failure.. The one feature I noted in all those european homes that lasted for centuries was they universally were overbuilt..
Your final statement is the full truth. While the added labor of doing things this way and buying the proper equipment to do so dramatically added to my costs. O can't help but feeling a smile when I see the work I've done thus far..