I get about 40 project plans on my desk a year from companies bidding tenders… (that’s bidding)… they don’t even have the job and often these projects take days jut to bid 1 subcontract.
How about the GC’s leveling with your friends here at breaktime and answer the following 2 questions honestly.
Have you ever asked for quotes without any intention of subcontracting out the work when bidding on a tender? (simply outsourcing the estimation part of your job–or getting multiple bids to pin down the price you will quote)
Have you ever landed a job and not sub-contracted work you asked other builders for a bid price on.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Replies
No
and
No
No.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
No,and no.
no and yes
the yes is conditional .... can we do the work in-house at a better price... or do i need the work to keep my guys working
Also no and yes. I've been in a few situations where a sub put in a proposal but was then unavailable to do the work when needed, and it was something we could do in-house. This is a small market, so sometimes there isn't a second-string player to go with if the first-string guy is out.
No and No
no and nope...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
no & yes , when the sub doubles the price 2 weeks before time to do it so wehad to do it ourselves ( tar & gravel roof job 3' off the ground ) said elevation made no difference & it was going to be more work than he figgured due to low height !
When I started charging (or told people I charge for doing estimates of that type), I was 0-20. 100 or so hours for no pay. To date not a single builder bidding a project has offered to pay the 2-$300 I ask for the estimation work they need to do anyhow to put in the bid.
This is telling.
They know we are not the cheapest ...and these are builders in Toronto-- a big market and to be fair, many are Landscape Contractors. I have instructed my builders not to bid anything like that for free, instead to seek out their own tenders to bid on their own.
If GC's are going to lowball labor, that's a game that is not profitable for us to play.
Small markets where you have done work for the builders are the only place this activity seems feasible.
LW
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
No and no. I use the same subs on every job. EVen the guy I had it out with a while back and metioned it here is getting a second (OK THIRD) shot on the next job.
not sure i understand the 1st question
Have you ever asked for quotes without any intention of subcontracting out the work when bidding on a tender? ...no
A. outsourcing the estimation part of your job.....nope
B.getting multiple bids to pin down the price you will quote...sometimes, but one of the 2 will get the job if I do.
Have you ever landed a job and not sub-contracted work you asked other builders for a bid price on............sometimes, again depends on the situation. timing of the job. if I need to keep in house
most jobs I bid, depending on size and complexity I only get actual bids from 2 to 4 trades the rest I bid myself and if I get the job then decide to let out or stay in house
Works both ways, can't count the number of times a homeowner is just fishing for numbers to compare to their BIL or preferred GC.
don't like it either way
what mike smith said. It has happened but it is rare. the other reson mike didint mention is some one not being able to meet the timeline or their work vacums.
"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
yeah... like that chimney i built in "Adverse"..... some bastid cut my mason's leg off , so i built it myselfMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I hope you enjoy your vacation for saying the b word .http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Edited 12/2/2009 7:12 pm by jimAKAblue
I suppose you could get away with this in a large, urban market, but pretty soon guys would realize they stand no chance of getting this work.
Why are you participating in these bids, which sound hopeless? What percentage of these bids do you win?
Dan... That's what I said, I don't. If they want me to do a take off nowadays, I charge. Instructed our locations to do the same thing...or seek their own tenders because it has become a trend in the business. LWGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
No. If I bring a sub in its either because i'm not licensed to do that type of work (HVAC, Plumbing, Elec) or they simply do it better / quicker than me (tile).
I dont have time to waste other peoples time.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I never get bids for jobs I don't plan on subbing out. Sometimes the bid seems higher than the budget can acount and I take it on at my expense so to speak.
If the jobs big I usually need to get several comparrisons for the owners sake. The last commercial job I did, small TI, I had to get bids from the owners usual suspects. My residential guys beat the snot out of them and I saved the owner 25%. It's a tough market out there.
I always offer the losing bidder the reason, if there interested, mostly because I ask owners up front before I bid it to give me the courtesy of showing me the other bids AFTER he's chosen simply so I can see what the markets doing. Also, it gives me the oppotunity to see if it was really apples to apples.
My last 'for sure' TI was under bid by another by 50%. I'm sure he plans on making it up in change orders which I don't really have the option as I know what the builder wants for the most part. Kind of a bummer as the other guy will end up where my bid was (he has already submitted 10 change orders in the first two weeks) but the owner will see that and next time take that into consideration, maybe.
By the way, what is a tender?
Ryder... what a refreshing post. Thanks for the glimpse of reality.Ok, a tender is (I expect), a british or canadian call out for bids on a project. (you guys must see me as a mutant with this strange language). The big GC will put out a tender to other smaller gc's with their list of terms... and the bank or lender's list of terms, often more than 100 pages of drawings and specifications that need deciphering by any sub contractor. Thanks also for touching on the point that the owner will often choose only the low bids, which is often trouble for the project manager. I can recall building a newspaper nearly 20 years ago... publisher fighting me all the way to keep the budget tight--nothing but low bids. Pretty sure he was getting the building for $3 a square foot from a power of sale... dirt floors to block walls in 7 weeks, 150,000 sq' of blown up sprinkler heads and uninsulated block and it came in at about 140k back then. (cabinets and carpet in). Rediculous Mutt n Jeff routine as I fired the poor drywaller 3 times, (turns out he was getting chemo for throat cancer...), but nevertheless he was overlapping corner bead and doing all kinds of things that told me he didn't have a clue. Poor bastid. Anyhow, the publisher would hire the guy back to avoid the liens and my crew ended up doing 72 hours straight to get the job done. Long story short-- because I was painted as the heavy on this tight budget job using subs, it made it very difficult to do business in that small town. Never the same after that. It is a big part of the reason I have built my business trying to help builders get better bucks for quality work.
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Lawrence,
One more item I do when I am putting together a proposal is I bid the job WITH the subs. We meet for lunch or something and I tell them what I expect it to cost from their standpoint and then they tell me what they expect to make.
It sounds weird but it works out quite well. For example, I will tell the drywaller I think the jobs should cost say $10k as an example as I know what other jobs of similar scope have cost in the past. He will counter that there has been a 5% increase so he needs more money. I will remind him last time how I had to clean up after him and we will meet half way at the difference.
It doesn't always work for getting us the job as sometimes we are still too high but the jobs we do get, at the end of them EVERYONE is happy with the money and no one surprises me with bills I didn't expect.
Sure, I could probably get more jobs and make more money if I did it differently but I like using the same subs and they like working for me.
My plumber and electrician tell everyone they see I am by far the best builder to work for as I actually PAY them! LOL How bad is the industry when you get a good rating just for doing what you agreed upon???
Mike