All right Tim…. you wanted pics from that house last fall I did with the bell-curve dormer over the barrel vault entry. I was out for a ride in the Jeep today, had the camera with me, so I swung by. I only have one shot of it in the framing stages… the rest I took today. The house is getting close to being finished but I think you’ll still like the pics.
The reason I didn’t take a lot of pic while framing this thing is kinda weird. By the time we got to the ‘cool’ stuff… I had realized that I underbid the job by about 10K. I was in bad space over that and I was pretty sour on the job the last couple weeks. When I left I didn’t think I’d ever want to see the place again. Well, time heals all wounds I guess.
This job was for the same architect and GC that I’m working for right now… in my other photo thread with the big truss and bow window framing.
The house is pretty unassuming from the street, but it just keeps going out back as the lot slopes off.
I’ll let the pics tell the rest of the story.
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More outside shots...
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And some inside shots...
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The main roof is a 14 pitch and the bell curve dormer was framed with live valleys because of the stair case headroom issue. Once I figured out where to place the valleys it wasn't bad at all. I laminated all the rafters together as full commons out of (3) layers of 3/4" ply, glued and screwed. Then I snapped out full scale valleys on the floor, lined up the full rafters every 16" and used a level to plumb the valley intersection (snapped on the floor) up onto the rafter to find my cuts.
I never did figure out how to place the valleys mathematically. The compound curve confused the heck out of me. Every time I thought I had it right, the lower curve would hit the valley nicely but the upper curve (smaller jacks) would miss it. Or vice-versa. I just kept cutting mock valleys out of 2x4's and setting them in different locations until we found the spot that would catch the curve(s) no matter what size the jack was.
The barrel vault entry was fun too... and much easier on the brain! I liked how they pulled it right into the house with the 1/2 round window seperating inside from outside.
Just a few more...
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It's easy to make a house look that good when the frame's done that well. You do beautiful work Brian.If it wasn't for 4 things I'd love to learn to be a real framer.Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
LOL.... all right Jim ya got me. I'll take the bait..... what are the four things?View Image
December, January, February, and March,
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
LOL.... I shoulda known! At least you 'get' it. This time of year is funny. People are always out strolling around or walking their dogs. They always stop and say something like, "boy, you guys sure are lucky to be working outside like this". Guess they think we just do it on the 'nice' days or sumptin.View Image
DP,Wow nice work!I would really enjoy trimming a house like that. I am bidding a house with a coffered ceiling right now (will trim this fall).This is a stain-grade octagonal vault in beadboard, with the boards running around the vault...it was like running 30 courses of crown (compound miters on both ends of all pieces). It took 3 days IIRC.Hope you are enjoying the weekend,BC
bass,
See, now that is a beautiful ceiling. I was a little disappointed to see the direction they had run the beadboard in the octagonal rooms.... sorta looked like cheatin' to me. How yours is done is how I would choose to do it, or have it done. I dunno though... maybe that's what the HO wanted? Given the rest of the house, that's what I'd have to assume, cuz I didn't see too many other corners cut while I was looking around.View Image
Good points,In all the pics you posted, that was the only thing that I thought looked out of place with the high quality of the work elsewhere. There is usually something to pick on (in my pic it is the wall color).Overall, very, very nice.Kudos on how you handled the situation and kept what looks to be a good account for the future.Bass
After looking at the pictures more closely.... I think the exterior octagonal ceiling (to become a screen porch) is Azek beadboard panels. I'm wondering if that had anything to do with it? Probably not.... but a stab in the dark. I'm really betting that it was a HO choice the more I think about it. Also that bow window gang in the front of the house.... I think panels would have looked better under those windows then just those corner boards with claps in between. Maybe they were trying to avoid drawing attention away from the entry though.... I dunno.View Image
It's very easy to "lose" 10k on custom frames. We get so accustomed to doing things on a relatively similar sq ft basis that it's easy to forget that sq ft means: 9' flat ceilings with 8' second floor...or whatever. When you add the things like true valleys and custom eyebrows like yours, you really have to beef up the bid. I learned my lessons like that over the years. You apparently are a much faster learner than me. Congrats to you. I wouldn't have a clue how to do anything round and I tip my hat off to those that can figure it. I am one of the founding members of the boogerin' club, so I'd have quickly fought my way through that eyebrow issue. I wish you had taken a few hundred pics of it. I probably would have tried one scientific approach....then immediately switch to the eyeball approach that has served me so many times. In the end, no one knows the difference because the results are the same. I like your approach on how you dealt with the latest bid. I hope you bid it right, but I can guarantee you left money on the table again. If you weren't forced into some type of negotiation, then you underbid it again. There probably wasn't anyone else that he was seriously considering to do the job because you are "his carpenter" now...but you probably don't see it that way yet. I know from experience that the harder the frame, the less choices the builder has and yet, he probably is working on a fixed fee basis and your price really doesn't affect his bottom line. If you are way out of whack and he can't justify your price to the people he is serving, then he'll give you another chance to review your bid and probably give you a budget or another bid to beat. You won't really have to beat it...you'll just have to be close enough. I'm guessing you gave away another 10k if the house is anything close to this one. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
LOL.... Jim... you're one of the few people who has the uncanny ability to make me regret telling the truth sometimes!
Seriously though... you may well be right that I may have left money on the table again. I seriously doubt it was 10K, but in reality... what do I really know? What I do know is that I'm on track to do very well on the current job and given how far along we are I don't think there are any surprises left in the frame that I'm unaware of. And in the interest of full disclosure... I condensed the account I told in this thread of the conversation I had with the GC. He asked me to come down 5K and I came down 2.5.... but I consider that standard operating procedure on a job this size and not really worth mentioning. I pack in a little 'gravy' on the original bid because I know it's usually coming. And after the first go around with this architect's plans.... there is, what I currently percieve to be, still some gravy floating around.
Time will tell I suppose. But I'm feeling much better about this one than the last one. What can a brother do? :) Keep on keepin' on and learn as I go.
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Edited 5/25/2008 8:42 pm ET by dieselpig
Excellent. YOu probably were right with the bid before you had to concede the extra 2.5k. I hope you have your whining act going. Its a fine line...you can't sound like a whiner but you always have to let them know that the money you came down was the money you actually needed. You might say something like "this job is going much better but I still can't buy my kids any toys yet." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Nice house, when do you move in? <g>
I like those ceilings, would you call that beadboard? Don't see those in Ca. very much.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Yeah, I'd love to be moving into that joint! I'm not sure which ceilings you're referring to.... some are beadboard and some are cofferred. The beadboard was/is in the barrel vaults and the partial octagon rooms... the coffered ceilings are in that main living room area that overlooks the kitchen... with the stone fireplace.View Image
Very nice looking place!
Love the painted trim.
Doug
Yeah, I think they're doing a nice job finishing the place. I guess it makes me not a purist, but I really like white painted interior trim too. I mean, a nice cherry paneled library is gorgeous too... but for case, base, crown, etc there's just something really clean looking about gloss white.View Image
The reason I didn't take a lot of pic while framing this thing is kinda weird. By the time we got to the 'cool' stuff... I had realized that I underbid the job by about 10K. I was in bad space over that and I was pretty sour on the job the last couple weeks. When I left I didn't think I'd ever want to see the place again. Well, time heals all wounds I guess.
Stones Brian; you got'em! It cost you 10k to learn how to bid this guys work. Most men would have cut and run, but you walked back to the plate for another pitch.
You're going to get it right if it kills you huh? I hate not being able to figure things out. At least when you finally make some money from this guy you will have the satisfaction of having "figured it out".
Nice work as always.
Eric
[email protected]
Big balls or a small brain.... it's a fine line. This guy first came to me with a set of plans about five years ago.... the plans terrified me. I think I ended up telling him I was too busy and couldn't get to him. I wasn't sure I had the skills at the time and I knew for certain that I didn't have the crew. Luck would have it though that he didn't lose my number after that. So when he came knocking again last summer (with the job in this thread) I knew what to expect as far as the work went.
What I didn't see was what really can't be seen just by looking at the drawings. During the course of the job in this thread I would stare at the plans at night and eventually came to the realization that I just didn't know what I didn't know when I bid it. And given the information I had to work with when I bid the job originally, I would have bid it the same way every time. To be fair to the GC, he did pay me for every extra and/or change order that I billed him for. But I didn't get ticky-tack on him either to try to make up the difference. Fair is fair.
So when I bid the job I'm on now I had a little more idea of what to expect with these guys. When I totalled up my bid I was terrified again! LOL... I put off calling him or faxing him the bid for two days. When I had a quiet minute to call him, I did. I told him the truth. I told him that I really wanted the job. Told him that it was something I'd love to do and that I really wanted to continue to work with him. But that we also both knew that the last one really didn't work out well for me financially. We both knew I could handle the work. So I then told him that I had come up with a number that I could do his job for, but I wasn't sure he was going to agree with me. He said that he's been doing this kind of job for a long time and has a pretty good idea of what it should cost to frame it.... lay it on him. I did and he said, "that's sounds fine". I couldn't have been any more surprised if I had woken up with my face sewn to the carpet. (To quote Chevy Chase).
I think expressing my concerns to him was the best thing I could have done. There seems to be a very obvious level of trust there with him now that wasn't present during the first job. When I tell him something on the drawings doesn't work and why I'm doing it differently, he doesn't really question me on it and make me walk him through it in every boring detail. I just explain it briefly and he says, "I'll let xxxx know". (the architect). He's also letting me order my own materials directly and let me have some input on which lumberyard and salesman we used this time since he knows that makes my life easier. It's a nice place to work right now. And it was worth the 'tuition payment'. View Image
Does that eyebrow dormer on the front run into the valley?
Yes, the corner is just clipped by the valley.View Image
Awesome house - nice job. I used to think I was pretty good at the math on roof cutting, but I could never figure curves worth a d#mn. Good to know I'm not the only one who has the same emotional reaction to an underbid.
I finally told one client I just flat out did not want to work for him anymore. Nice guy, but always "works" me, and I fall for it. You know, 'just give me a baseline bid for the minimum generic product to save money' - then when I get in there, he nitpicks it like a million dollar bid (with help from his Helpey Helperton son-in-law, a failed contractor who went belly-up by underbidding a huge job!). I finished my last job for him and it nearly put me out of business. Don't ever want to see him or his projects again. Maybe I'll get over it, too...probably sometime after I pick up a paying job again!
Slowsville here - the only phone calls I'm getting are from other contractors I've worked with, asking if I have anything.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Nice work as always. Just out of curiosity, what did the 10 k underbid work out to be
as a percentage of the total ? Just a different perspective of how close you were.
Certainly no one likes to lose money, just looking at the big picture.
-D
Nice work as always. Just out of curiosity, what did the 10 k underbid work out to be
as a percentage of the total ? Just a different perspective of how close you were.
LOL.... I left 10K on the table out there bro. What more needs to be said? I'm small time D..... not set up to absorb that kinda stuff routinely. If you're curious about how it feels... withdraw 10K out of your bank account and send it to me and see how much percentages matter to you. It's 10% of what I'd like to take home this year. It's 20% of my next truck. It's 15% of the garage I'd like to build for myself. It's 200% of the vacation my wife and I dream about. It's 100% of the used Bobcat I'd like to buy. I'm just a little guy dude. :)View Image