Here’s where working time and materials all the time comes back to bite me in the arse…I’ve no clue how much it’ll cost me to make kitchen cabinets, and I need to come up with a guestimate for the client.
Can any of you dedicated cabinet makers out there tell me roughly what the installed cost per running foot of uppers and lowers, paint grade, flush inset door kitchen cabinetry should run? Going to be all the way to the ceiling in 8’6 room. Approximately 36 running feet.
Am I talking 20K?
Sorry for being a rookie. I just don’t do cabinets very much, and when I do it’s always t & m.
Steve
Replies
Chuck,
Thought you'd be a great resource for this question.
Best,
Steve
You may want to ask over in the Knots forum. There are alot of woodworker and cabinet maker types over there.
Look back at your past invoices for any job that was similar.
Crunch some numbers off of the records you have.
The problem is my t & m invoices are really scattershot. I tend to have a lot of little projects related to a larger project going on at once, so one day I'm running to the landfill and picking up materials, and the next I'm running a little trim, then stripping some paint, and the next I'll be moving the mudwork along while working on some plumbing or electrical.On top of that, the only kitchen I ever built the cabinets from scratch start to finish for was my own. I've done some bookcases and built-ins and such, but not really comparable pieces.I'm not being lazy, I just don't have any data to work from.Steve
200 a running ft for both uppers and lowers is a good start. Doors and drawers @ 100 per. each.
So a 60" sink base would be 5'x100+2 doors=700.00
Therabouts..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Thanks much.Steve
P.S. 36' ft of base cabs? or Upper AND lowers?
Base only 20K is cheap.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm doing a full custom kitchen right now(well not tonight but......) There is ~30' of uppers and 30' of lowers with a few cabinets going floor to ceiling, such as the pantry, oven box and the refrig cab. The island is ~9' long and 42" deep. Cabinets are prefinished.
With a helper we have spent 3 full days but had to leave for the painters to do some spraying. We will be back in the place on Monday to finish. We work 10 hr days so we already have 60 hours and with an additional 20 to do the final work.
Our rate is $54 so with 80 hrs @ $54 we will have ~ $4400 for the install. This is a complete custom kitchen, built in our shop.
This would be a pretty average size kitchen with simple features, most of our custom kitchens run quite a bit more in both install and complexity.
I will post pictures of the completed job Mon or Tues.
Doug
Edited 3/8/2008 9:13 pm ET by DougU
Sub out the cabinets to a local shop. At least the fabrication, you do the install. Sounds like you have you hands full allready. If you are not familiar with building that big of a cabinet job, you could take a loss. You should at least consider having a shop do a cut to size job for you. I have any job bigger than two sheets cut, line bored, edge banded by a big local shop. The money spent on shop time is the best money spent. You wind up with a truck full of parts ready to assemble.
I won't lose money, because they are paying t & m plus markup, with no qualms about doing so.I have a cabinet maker that I use sometimes, but he's slow and expensive. I'm in the middle of nowhere. We don't have any big shops here. And I need to get these things done and in. Plus I'm tired of pulling bird sh*t down on my head and sucking up plaster and lath, and am looking forward to quietly and cleanly working on some nice cabinets. Plus it'll give me a good opportunity to keep track and see what it does cost me to do it, so next time I'll have and accurate idea of what it takes.Steve
mmoogie
This is from National Estimator
Cabinet Trim and Finish Carpentry
__________________________________________________________________________
As I mentioned earlier, your best bet is to keep detailed records of the average manhours required to machine, assemble and finish each cabinet component. Once you have a good database, price out the labor for components that can be made by a relatively unskilled worker at a different rate than those requiring a skilled craftsman.
Items to consider when creating a manhour database:
• Time required to determine a client’s needs
• On-site visit and field measurements
• Drafting and estimating time, including cut lists
• Project meetings
• Time required for locating suppliers, taking quotes, ordering and tracking materials
• Unloading and storing materials for future use
• Sorting and laying out materials prior to building the cabinet
• Cabinet wood component assembly
• Hardware installation
• Sanding and finishing
• Shop cleanup
• Packing, delivery and installation
• Final touchup
Cabinet Trim and FinishCabinet Trim and FinishFinish Carpentry
__________________________________________________________________________
By now, you can appreciate why it’s so difficult to set forth a generalized set of manhour data for fabricating custom cabinets. That’s especially true when no two projects are the same. The manhour figures that follow will give you ballpark labor prices. They include cutting pieces and assembling the cabinets, including door hardware, base frame and kick plate. The figures do not include finishing, countertops or other items from the above checklist.
Allow 5.00 hours to fabricate and assemble 24-inch-wide, single-door base cabinets (Figure 9-67) with lipped slab doors. Allow 6.50 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with five-piece raised panel doors set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
Allow 6.75 hours to fabricate and assemble 24-inch-wide, single-door, single-drawer base cabinets (Figure 9-68) with lipped slab doors and overlapping slab drawer faces. Allow 10.75 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with five-piece raised panel doors and drawers set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
Allow 8.50 hours to fabricate and assemble 24-inch-wide, three-drawer base cabinets (Figure 9-69) with overlapping slab drawer faces. Allow 13.0 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with drawers set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
Allow 10.3 hours to fabricate and assemble 24-inch-wide, four-drawer base cabinets (Figure 9-70) with overlapping slab drawer faces. Allow 16.3 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with drawers set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
Allow 6.25 hours to fabricate and assemble 36-inch-wide, two-door base cabinets (Figure 9-71) with lipped slab doors. Allow 9.25 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with five-piece raised panel doors set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
Oven CabinetOven CabinetFinish Carpentry
__________________________________________________________________________
Allow 9.75 hours to fabricate and assemble 36-inch-wide, two-door, two-drawer base cabinets (Figure 9-72) with lipped slab doors. Allow 15.8 hours to fabricate and assemble the same base cabinets with five-piece raised panel doors and drawers set flush in the cabinet frame front openings.
There's more but you get the idea.
Rich
This is a u-shaped layout, 12'x14'x12' as measured at the wall. Uppers and lowers, no uppers for appproximately 6 feet where windows are. Stove on the diagonal in one corner, refrigerator cabinet to the ceiling on one end.attached are plan and elevations.Steve
Rich,Thanks. That's valuable information. And I really appreciate it.I'm sorry to even be posting about this. I know how bad it is to even ask this kind of question. I was actually paid to do estimating for a year. It's a royal pain in the arse, and something I've managed to avoid most of my career by working t & m. The reason I only need a vague number on this is because I'm about 60K into a major renovation for these folks that we entered into t & m, on a really open-ended basis. Every surface I've touched on this house has wound up needing to be totally rebuilt, so what started as a kitchen and bath remodel wound up being totally rebuilding four out of five planes of the addition it's housed in, in addition to two out of four walls of the main house. Now I've got a roof half done from last fall, a bathroom to finish, a floor to lay, 10K of windows to put in, and this kitchen to outfit, and they just want to know how much money, in large numbers that they have to borrow to finish. I've got a pretty good handle on most of the other projects, but the cabinetry is outside of my pricing experience.I'm thinking that it's about 35K to get the cabinets built finished and installed, floor down and finished, and wainscot and trim in the room. But just could really use a reality check on the cabinetry end of it.Steve
mmoogie
I'm sorry to even be posting about this. I know how bad it is to even ask this kind of question. Doesn't bother me. If I don't want to help you run your business then I'll just move on to the next thread.
I was actually paid to do estimating for a year. Maybe you can help the rest of us.
It's a royal pain in the arse, and something I've managed to avoid most of my career by working t & m. You (I) need to track our time better. I am starting to do that in a macro sense. Per Job.
I really should break it down even further. How long did it take to tear out window, prep opening, install window, trim, stain and varnish.
But I am like you multi-tasking all day long and my 2 sons work with me also. And I am not good at writing things down during the day and then recording it at night.
Rich
Rich,Well, thanks again for your input.I was actually pretty good at estimating when I had a good database to work from. The company I worked for (in Minneapolis, BTW) had developed an excel spreadsheet that was about a million lines long. It was just a matter of thinking stuff through and remembering to count every step. My main problem was trying to estimate poorly specified projects. The owner was always trying to come up with what he called a "big round number" for free first, then charge for a detailed estimate. He had 25 years of experience, but the best he could tell you was "a bathroom costs as much a your car...and you pay more for your primary car then your second car". Words of wisdom, indeed.I was always trying to get the field guys to keep better records so we could build a better database and job-cost as we went along more accurately, but they would have none of it.The other problem I encountered was nobody wanted to know how much things were really going to cost. When I did really fleshed out estimates, they came in pretty high and neither the owner nor the client was happy about that. But they wound up being pretty realistic numbers. So they wound up doing things to artificially deflate the number, like putting in lots of low-end allowances for stuff, knowing full well that there will be lots of changes and upgrades that will bring the cost back up again before the end of the project. That always made my skin crawl. Wasn't lying, per se, but pretty disingenuous. And I always tried to be realistic about how long things took. The owner was always pushing back on that, and the field guys were ones who took the heat for it. All in all, not a fun year. I was supposed to have been hired to be a designer, but the owner really did the designing, I was just a Chief Architect jockey and number cruncher. I eventually left, ostensibly to go back to field work, but mostly to get out of there.Steve
Good Morning Steve
Here is a page from my Cost Summary ( on Excel) on tracking roof repairs. I have about 15-17 areas that I am tracking jobs.
I am not saying this is a good design, just my attempt at tracking. Feedback welcome.
If you can't ask your friends from BT for help, where else are you going to go?
Rich
Severson, Engelbrecht, Kurth and Kniep. If I recall, you are in Minnesota, no? With names like that, you should be if you aren't.In regards to your spreadsheet, I like the various columns. You are breaking down the data into useful units ie: man-hours per sf. In isolation the descriptions of what they did don't tell me much. I don't know what tearing off and replacing sides of dormer really entailed. Was that removing shingle? stucco? clapboards? sheathing too? how much of that was demo and how much was rebuilding? replacing with what? How much set-up and knock-down time? It's good that you've related a quantity to it. I could never get my guys to do that. That's more detail than I could ever get out of my field crews. I was aiming for two things in job costing: to see if we were on budget for the job, and to gather data for future estimates. The first was relatively easy. I would get time sheets that said: framing 8 hours. That's fine for adding up all the framing and seeing if the total framing was on budget, but without quantities, you couldn't tell anything till that phase was done. No way to make adjustments as you went. And it was useless for telling me how long it takes my guys to frame a lineal foot of wall and using that information in future estimates.I wanted to get a system whereby the field guys had the line item estimate in their hands on the job site and would record stuff in the categories on the estimate. Wasn't going to happen. Not in a million years.Steve
mmoogie
I live in Iowa, about 1 hour from Minnesota and 30 min from South Dakota.
I am trying to do the job cost thing to help estimate future work. But so much of what we do is random one of a kind type of thing.
Others have said the same thing until they started to track costs and realized there was some valuable data they should have been collecting.
We rarely frame anything. It's always making a silf purse out a sow's ear with old buildings.
But more and more people want an estimate even for a 1/2 day of work.
Rich
Just another area i need to get better in.
Rich
mmoogie
Mike Smith posted his employee time card earlier and I saved a copy of it.
I tried posting it earlier and attached the wrong thing so I deleted post #34.
Rich
Thanks for popsting that one.
I've done a little of this and that over the years, and did a full set of cabinets from scratch a year or so ago. It seemed to take longer than I expected it to (Doesn't it always?) Now I realize it wasn't as bad as I thought, especially since everything was custom.
Since I'm redoing our home kitchen in a few months, I might have to try again. :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
We don't build cabinets full time, but we've built and installed a few over the years.
250/lin ft for base, 150/lin ft for wall - intalled.
That's one bank of drawers and a row of drawers under the counter top - full extension slides. Add 100/drawer for any additional drawers.
That's cope and stick doors, flat or raised panels. All plywood boxes, might or might not be mdf panels.
Add for silverware drawer dividers, lazy susans, divided unit over fridge, fridge or dishwasher end panel, spice or wine racks, cutlery drawer, crown at top of wall units, counter sub top...
That gets us in the ballpark. We start with those numbers and adjust.
I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Thanks Jim. Does that include painting?
Well, I've never sold a painted kitchen we built ourselves, but that's where we start for stained and 2 coats of poly finish, so yeah, I'd try it at that for paint.
I'd be talking to my painter first, though. I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Thanks.I'll have to see what kind of a price I can get from the jerk...oh, that would be me.Steve
Can any of you dedicated cabinet makers out there tell me roughly what the installed cost per running foot of uppers and lowers, paint grade, flush inset door kitchen cabinetry should run? Going to be all the way to the ceiling in 8'6 room. Approximately 36 running feet.
Am I talking 20K?
Are you asking for just the installation? I see several posts in your talking building them too. What is it your looking for in price here?
If you dont have any idea about the cost to install and now you've indicated that you dont have any idea about the cost to build I'd say you better sub this out!
Am I talking 20K?
I'd say built and installed for 20K would be hard to do unless you're doing some pretty simple/cheap cabs.
Doug
Doug,Yes, built, finished, installed.My labor is billed at 57.00/hr for me and my partner. They'll be pre-finished 3/4 birch plywood carcasses, store-bought doors and drawers, simple flat panel stile and rail, inset flush. Field brush-painted. Not a lot of bells and whistles in terms of turntables/pullouts and such. Just shelves doors and drawers. Trickiest bit will be the wood range hood built on the diagonal over the stove.Based on what's been posted so far, I'm thinking 15-18K for the cabinets, plus a week to install, which puts me at around 20K.Steve
I've only built a couple of orders with inset flush doors...but they can take a bunch of tweaking...doubles or triples the door/drawer fitting time.Not much help, but thats all I have.
That's mostly what I've done. Goes fairly easily with a Festo and mortise-free hinges. But the couple times I've installed overlay doors w/Euro hinges I've thought to myself "I could get used to this..."Steve
Edited 3/9/2008 11:04 am by mmoogie
Steve,As I posted, it did occur to me that on your part of the map, the inset doors are as common as overlay.I just did a small, overlayed drawer (no doors) entertainment center this past month...took as long as a much larger job I did last fall. This has nothing to do with your thread--just rambling--but small jobs involve all the same steps as the the big ones.I know that is obvious, but it still suprises me...slow learner!The last window seat job, I built an extra bench with lid and gave it as a gift to my neighbor. Sometimes you can almost get two for one...laborwise. End of tangent.Your job sounds like a good one.Godspeed,Bass
hey there is a custom shop in Munnsville run by some Mennonites that make some great custom cab. eyc.
Did I read no mortis hinges? I also assume no blumotion drawer guides? Maybe just full extension KV's? You did say no pull outs, no lazy susans. No pantry pull outs? Silverware trays? Trash bins? ................?
If you're just going to deliver some basic well built cabinets then maybe you can do the job fully installed for 20K. Seams like a fair place to start if you're just trying to give them some numbers so that they have an idea of what kind of money they will have in the job.
Your rate for two guys is about the same as ours for one so maybe your not to far off on your numbers. I'd make sure that if they(HOers) want to start adding bells and whistles to the cabinet job that you have your azz covered with some language regarding such.
Have you picked out a place to buy the doors and drawer fronts? If I were you I'd also consider buying out the drawer boxes, they ain't all that fun to make and you can almost buy them as cheap as you can make them if you're not set up to do so. I might add that you want to do your homework regarding the ordering of doors/drawers/boxes, make sure your numbers are right, they don't take them back! Double check everything, I go through the whole job and look for things like inside corners where drawers can hit each other, knobs protrude to far to clear the drawer on the adjacent cabinets, things like that. Once you go over it completly - do it again.
As I think it was Basswood that mentioned it, you do have to allow more time for full inset doors/drawers. I don't know that its a matter of double the time though, if I was building full over lay cab's I build them square too so really no difference there, its the face frames that will eat up some time. You get that part right and the rest falls in place. Any respectable door company will deliver your doors square so if you did your part up front then the doors will fit.
I order my doors 1/16th big both ways when I do inset doors. that way I have the ability to shave a tad off to make a proper fit. Yes you will have to take each door down by that 1/16th but that's better then trying to add on to either the door or faceframe if they are a bit shy! Shooting board will do the job without any problems.
Doug
Edited 3/9/2008 1:19 pm ET by DougU
Doug,Yes, just well-built basic cabinets. I usually use accuride full extension glides. The no-mortise hinges are a little sloppy but they look good and make it a lot easier to adjust flush inset doors.I do order drawer boxes as well. I can't think of much else less interesting to make than a box. So essentially all I'm making is carcasses and face frames, then installing the rest of the store-bought stuff. I usually order my doors the exact size of the openings and trim them in with the Festo saw. Makes it very easy to tweak the door a bit if things wind up the tiniest bit out of square.As I said, it's a t & m project with a whole bunch of other stuff on the plate, so if the numbers drift, it's not going to cost me. They are just looking for numbers on a whole bunch of stuff, including this cabinetry to aid in their financial planning, and I would like to be as realistic as possible.Thanks.Steve
Steve
The no-mortise hinges are a little sloppy but they look good and make it a lot easier to adjust flush inset doors.
I'm not sure what hinges your using and I'm not arguing your choice but I'd have to see the hinge that's easier to adjust then a Euro hinge.
I usually order my doors the exact size of the openings and trim them in with the Festo saw.
I use the EZ, but I suppose yours will suffice. :)
With all those things considered then I'd say your in the neighborhood and maybe dead on with your cost guesstamate. See you do know how to estimate the time/cost!
Good luck and pictures are always nice
Doug
Doug,You are of course correct about Euro hinges. What I meant by easier was that they are easier than traditional mortised barrel hinges. They still look like a traditional hinge when closed, but you are not stuck making mortises and they give you some up/down left/right adjustment ability.Thanks for the input. I'll post pix in a couple of months...Steve
Steve
You got a link to those hinges. I want to do my kitchen with exposed hinge barrels but dont want to go the route of the but hinge - no adjustment being the reason.
Doug
Doug,They're amerock. Available any number of places. Here's Amazon's selection:http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_hi/105-0618825-7035647?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=amerock+full+inset+wrap+hinge&x=21&y=16Attached are pix of them installed. You get up/down adjustment with the slotted screw holes on the edge of the face frame, and left/right with the slotted screw holes on the back of the door. The barrels are a little sloppy, so you generally need to shim out the bottom hinge a smidge.Steve
Thanks, those would do the trick
Doug
Just drove by your neighborhood this weekend. The fog was so thick on Rt.20 near Cherry Valley I was driving about 15 mph.From what I see from your posts, it looks like your about inline with what we would normally charge for a similar project. I just never seem to get the jobs that are as basic of a cabinet style. Was the finish a painted finish? Final prep work and attention to detail on painting will be a little more time consuming than usual, it's what makes or breaks the finish job. We spray all finishes and I've used solid pigment lacquer finishes in place of paint with great results too.If your using hardwoods for face framework, are you starting with roughsawn stock? There's always milling time involved there before you can even start a cut sheet. Most of our cabinet jobs start with rough sawn wood for doors, drawer fronts and faceframes. It usually eats up a good day or two for two men. In this case, your buying drawers and doors premade so not as big a concern for just faceframe material.We had a fun project a few years ago that buying the doors was'nt an option. Had a customer wanting cabinets designed to mimic his East Lake Victorian Antiques. Involved custom knife grinding,etc., walnut and butternut for wood. I was too timid on pricing and about broke even but it was as enjoyable of a cabinet job as I've done. Hurt that much more when I found out what price he was given by someone else.
Live and learn.
Nice work Bish,I like Eastlake style. We don't see a whole lot of it around here. Mostly greek and italianate. Where do you work out of?I use Wightman's Lumber in Portlandville for my hardwood. They mill it pretty well, so I just take it as it lays. I don't even own a thickness planer. It's a big hole in my lineup.Cherry Valley fogs in really badly a lot for some reason. Beautiful country up there though. That's about 20 minutes from me. I've got one side project going pretty near there now.Steve
We're located in Tully, south of Syracuse. We sometimes camp over your way, Cooperstown is a beautiful town. Enjoy the Farmer's museum, my wife loves the shops.
My wife worked at the Farmers' Museum for a couple of years.
hey guys, great place to visit. Love the museum across the street
mmoogie,
I am a homeowner building a house right now in Michigan and I just got my estimates back from cabinetmakers. The estimate is for base cabinets in the kitchen of approx. 13 running feet and an island that is 7.5 feet wide and 3' deep.
Construction in MDF with professionally custom painted and glazed flat panel doors and drawers, full overly European style, will mostly drawers with soft-close and full-extension glides and a coulple specialty cabinets (dual garbage drawer, spice rack, pan dividers, 2 pullout shelves) was 10,450 uninstalled and 12,900 installed. #### 900 to that for 3/4" birch carcasses. There were estimates a thousand dollars either side of this one.
For that same set-up in decent quality stock cabinets (all plywood and hardwood) from the lumber yard it was 7,000 uninstalled. For me it's a no-brainer--I'll take the custom job for the extra 3,500. I don't know if this helps you at all, but there it is.
Thanks. That's helpful.Steve