Usually just finish under my sills with a 21/2″ piece of col. casing with a 22 1/2 degree on each end. Got the great idea today to put returns on them, only problem is I can’t figure it out. Any help appreciated.
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I cut the returns to size, and use little miter clamps to hold them on until the glue sets up. I got the clamps from Collins Tools. Keeping the returns from disappearing off the miter saw is usually the hard part. I've found out that if I make the cut, let off the trigger,and keep the blade all the way down until it stops spinning, those small pieces mostly stay put.
Before I got the clamps, I would just hold the returns on with a little masking tape until the glue sets.
And when I'm talking about the glue setting, I don't mean until its fully dry. 30-40 minutes is usually plenty of time.
Would hot glue be strong enough to hold? Then it would be cured in seconds.
I've found regular hot glue really doen't hold all that well, and I haven't had much luck getting the joints tight with it.
I have used a cyanoacrylate glue (superglue) if I'm in a hurry, but its a lot more expensive than regular wood glue. The brand I generally use is Hot Stuff, but there are others. You can find good CA at hobby shops. Don't use SuperGlue itself- its not that good.
we do it the same way as shep... same tools, same clamps
a lot of this became so easy with modern saws..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You don't need the 22 1/2 degree cut if you're putting returns in- just cut a square end, bevel it to 45, and install the return. The casing profile will give you a look similar to the angled side profile that the 22 1/2 cut gave you previously.
Bob
YEA THAT WAS THE PROBLEM TRYING TO CUT THE 22 AND THEN A RETURN FOR IT. I'll try it tomm. with out the 22 I know thats easy I've done it plenty of times with dead end base trim. Thanks to all
For paint grade you could always cope the ends too...if yer savvy with a coping saw, it goes quicker than hunting all the returns that get shot outta the saw, or break. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I've always used a 15 deg cut for the aprons. And I like the looks better than the 22-1/2 cuts. But that's how I was taught too.
I'm just curious, but how do you cope an outside corner? Do they have an inside corner profile?
I just cut it like an inside miter at 45 degrees, then cope it square to the back so the profile is now transferred to the end grain.
I won't do it with stain grade , due to the belief that any stain grade work ought show NO end grain when possible.
Its fast and easy. Unless ya got a lot of detail in the apron trim that is. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Is this the type of return you are looking for?
Nice detail. I gotta remember that one.
Gotta confess, I've never seen that one before
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Simple but a little class! Used to work for a guy that had a thing about End grain!
I miss the days of, did'nt matter how fast you were, just how Good!
Me neither!!!!....they keep messing about long enough, they'll end up doing it the tried & true way us old farts do...maybe.....
Not exactly what I was looking for (I'm using 2 1/2" col. casing) but definitly neat looking!! I like that alot, what type of trim is the apron?
IF you want to catch them little peices and have a shop vac around (don't every trim carpenter) stick the nozzle up there and it will suck them right in. And if you don't want to go diggin in the ole vac put one of them thar nylon pantie type hoses over the end. Just make a whole wad of them up at a time. And there all bagged up ready to go
Window trim is 2 1/4" Anderson trim, (the name used around here) same stuff that is used to case doors. Cut @ a 22 1/2 times 2. Very simple to do, EZ on the fingers also!
The apron is popular ripped & painted, use long trim screw to attached to Pella Pro line windows. Fill holes with bondo. Also round over edge of apron with router & round over bit.
Very nice. We're doing all stain grade work this job wish I had some pictures to share but I just can't remember to bring the camara to work. I make all my sills myself (either 3/4 pine or 5/4 pine ) with a roman 0gee router bit. Route it face up then flip it over for a sill. I then fit all my aprons just shy of the last revel underneath. They should line up with the casing above the sill. Its a pretty look but I was never satisfied with the end grain on the apron. I'm gonna try the suggestions here but for some reason (and I may be over complicating things here) but I think you need a compound miter. I'll find out tommorrow.
If you want to return the 22½º cut, you could make the compounds on the table saw. Thats what we used to do before the miter saws tilted. There will be some head scratching and miter/ stock flipping to achieve the cuts you require but the second window will go alot faster than the first. I'd use the miter saw to lob off the short returns, table saws tend to eat them. Good Luck.
Do you return the sill as well? Or rout the end grain? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Route the end grain. I tried returning it once but didn't like the seam in the sill.
Ok, that goes back to how much effort ya want to employ.
The horn return is lot more visable than the apron, and the EG won't stain well or take a smooth paint, with out a lot more prep. Depending on yer router technique of course.
That seam, IMO, can be less pronounced with judicious use of a sharrp chisel, and a swipe with 180 grt SP.
Depends on the application..after all, it ain't a clock right?
I have seen miles of burnt, fuzzed or router dipped horns, there is where I'd make the return pay for it self. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
sphere
I like you're way of thinking, the extra effort goes a long way...
"The horn return is lot more visible than the apron, and the EG won't stain well or take a smooth paint, with out a lot more prep. Depending on yer router technique of course."
The end grain imo shows less then the top of the sill (which kind of brings us full circle because it was apron returns that started this.) But after I router I hit the whole thing with the palm sander (real fine) If there are any burns, fuss ect (I've gotten to the point where I can make the turn with minimal burn...my guys are a different story:) ) I take care of that there. The very back of the return gets clipped off to set the sill in so I run the router out to the end then make my notches. If you don't mix the stain just use the stuff on top you can almost duplicate the stain on the rest of the sill. I mean just touch it and wipe it off. Are we spending the same amount of time??? Probably,but by the time I get to this piont I'm doing the one thing I enjoy the most.
Anyway I cut the returns on a 90 with a 45 back cut and the actual bevel is like a 13 or so and it looks good. I used Piffens suggestion and hung the apron first and slipped the return in with alittle glue. Worked like a friggen charm. Thanks Pif where ever you are. Thanks to all
OK. But someday you'll leave the palm sander in the box, and make a sill like it oughtta be done. (VBG) Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
If putting two seams on the top of my sill is "like it oughtta be done" then .... nah someday will never come. Hey, whats (VBG)??
VBG = Very Big Grin
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I route the end-grain on the sill, too, usually. But a return back down towards the floor would work nicely if put on before you route the profile onto the sill. That would eliminate the seam for a wall-return and put the end-grain on the underside of the sill where it couldn't be seen unless the HO gets down on his knees lookin' fer trouble....
Oh yeah, and, hot glue? I use it but you gotta keep it hot and go easy on the quantity used or it builds up a thickness and you can't close the joint afterwards. Yellow carp's glue is better if you have the time and the clamps....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Yur welcome. I'm up here in Maine wondering why your seams show in a sill return. You use a sharp sawblade? Once painted, mine disappear.
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Doing all stain grade this time around. I was perusing your profile (since you seem to be the big man on campus) Have you ever read any Larry Mcmurtry?? As a L'mour fan I'm sure you'd love Lonesome Dove.
Not only is he the Big man on Campus, He's the Dean!
Stain grade makes it all the more important to avoid end grain exposure. It just looks unfinished.saw the movies based on mcMurtry's stuff, but didn't get around to the books. My wife got into them pretty strong.Now for your assignment from the "Dean" LOLclick on your name in this header, and fill out the rest of your profile by clicking the "change profile" buttonWe'll enjoy having you around and getting to know you that much better.Now off to that freshman class with you - the lab class practicing retrun cutting;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sills are done on this job and the apron returns are perfect. Next job (or in my spare time..spare time???) I'll return the sills just for you guys.
And oh yea, I'll get to class and fill my profile when you borrow your wifes copy of LD. Trust me you won't be disappionted :)
They make a window sill bit, friend...Roman ogee is something else.....
Thanks but well aware. Just like the look better.
Returns are easy....just watch yer fingers.
You`re basically making outside corner cuts at either end of the apron.....long points of cuts line up with the casings above. Then, on scrap piece of casing....not too short a piece....bout a foot or so, again cut outside corners. Now square cut the outside miters right off the scrap at the short point of the miter. Glue em on....maybe a piece of duct tape to hold em til glue sets.
Good luck.
And again....watch your fingers.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
You are talking about aprons under the interior sill.
Sounds like you are clipping the angle off the face now.
stand the stock up on your mitre saw ( not the sawsall, johnny) withthe profile facing you, and cut it ata 45° angle on both ends. glue and nail it in place under the sill, centered, of course.
then take another piece ( some cutoff stock OK but make it long enough to hold safely so you don't cut any fingers off - don't ask me how I know) and make the same 45miter cut on each end of it.
Now - the tricky part. you have to clip that prebeveled piece off just right so that the cross section is a perfect triangle. There will be a left one and a right one from each side of your stock. You have to know your saaw and go slow. Some pieces will get thrown into the chute with the sawdust. Good idea to make a dozen or so at one time for a selection.
When you find one that fits, a bad of glue is all you need to jhold it in. Slathjer the cut edges of the mired return piece and snuggle it in between the cut end of the apron and the wall so it is glued to each. Sometimes a dab of painter's tape to hold for 20 minutes, but a well cut return will almost hold itself in. I cut returns on the sill too. I once went back to a job after two years when the owner finally got around to sanding and doing polyurethene. i had forgotten to glue one sill return and it had held all that time until he started sanding.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I used to come up with some pretty prepesterous ways to catch returns. One day the fog partially cleared, and I glued two pieces of plywood up, to make an L. After I bevel the return ends, clamp the L to the saw. partialy cut thru, and you've got a zero clearance return box. Those little pieces just dance off the end into a tupperware container, lefty righties <G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Every one has you cover on the returns but as for how to keep your returns out of the dust bag--or disappearing for that matter--
Put a piece of masking tape on the face of your piece with a couple of inches hanging off the end--
put the piece face out and on edge against the fence--with the saw off lower the blade to the piece and don't worry just get it in the ball park--
If you touch the tape against the fence with the piece slightly off you can slide the piece a little to get right on--now when you cut the piece will stay where you can find it--on the saw table--
Hope this helps--
Mike
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
It's about time Johnnysawzall! I've always thought it was low end not to miter a return on moldings, either you're a trim carpenter or your not.
A 90° miter on the end is fine but you can also get a different look by using combinations of 90°. Cutting and keeping control of the small returns is pretty easy. Take a bunch of short waste pieces and cut your 45's or whatever angle on them, a left and a right on each end. Obviously you want the scraps to be long enough to safely hold on the saw, 4"+. It helps to add a sacrificial wood fence to the miter saw with a couple short screws through the holes. After the miters are cut, I'll cut 30 or more at one time, you just turn the piece upside down, set the saw back to 90°, and cut even with the short point of the miter. To keep the small piece from blowing away, anchor it with a piece of masking tape. Leave the saw blade down until it comes to a stop. To use a miter saw safely, you should do this with every cut, every time, few do. When you make the cut, you will want it right on that short point, that way the return won't be too thick and stick out thicker than the back of the molding.
To glue the pieces on, I use Devcon Weldit all purpose adhesive, there are other brands that are basically the same. If you use a water base glue, the small pieces will often curl and warp. I put a liberal amount of the adhesive on one piece and squeeze it to the apron or whatever I'm returning. It grabs and dries very fast. You can use some masking tape to pull things together when you need to. Any squeeze out can be cleaned up easily after the glue is dry with a sharp utility knife and a bit of fingernail. Once you've done a few, you'll know just how much glue it takes and you won't have much to clean up.
I have a picture of a few types of mitered returns that I use to explain the look to customers. They usually don't know what a mitered return is. I actually had a customer that wanted to know why I didn't just cut the moldings square, after I had installed some chair rails that had to stop at some uncased openings. I thought to myself, any hack can do that, but I figured I'd better have some samples to explain the cuts for future jobs, just in case.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Good shot, there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To catch returns I cut real slow when just about through and when the tiny return "triangle" just starts to wiggle I'll let up. It will still be attached, but only by a small strip of wood that is easily trimed with a utility knife or simply snapped off if hidden.
You can cut them straight (i.e. bevel only) to put the return on; do a 60º return with a 30º back-bevel on the return (i.e. bevel bth sides of the return at 30º) to create a relief return; or you can compound cut with a 15º mitre and 30º (or 45º, of course) bevel. The big key is to remember to also compound cut the return pieces or the lengths won't match.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Sounds interesting....not sure I`m visualizing properly though.....any chance you might have pic handy?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
picture the sill laying flat on the mitre saw and using the saw with the blade tilted 30 degrees. Great solution, BTW, Phil, made the hairs on my neck stand up! It's alot easier to hide that little seam on the front edge of the sill than on the surface.
Alas, no working digital camera. It's something you have to play with to get right. The basic return can be flared just by changing from a 90 to a 60 (cut 45's to cut 30's); or you can get fancier by mitering the joint too. Where people fail in the compound cut is by forgetting that the return piece also has to be compound cut (i.e. not just beveled) and that the miter has to not change hands or you will create a "droop" (most trim guys automatically put the opposite hand mitre on the return). You can usually make these up in one run, let the glue cure, and then trim the back flush on a table saw.With bigger trim (either in thinkness or height), we go for smaller and smaller flare and bevel; 3" colonial with a 7.5º mitre and 75º bevel (37.5 + 37.5) looks terrific (remember, colonial already has a tapered profile - with a clam profile, we actually use a proud mitre to get the return back to perpendicular)..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I measure and cut all of my aprons at the same time. I lay them all on some saw horses and use a little bottle of contact adhesive (brush built into the cap) to glue the returns on. Apply a coat on the aprons and the little return pieces. When your done, the first ones you glued are already dry enough to stick them together. If you cut your aprons exactly the right length to match the side casings you can center them by eye pretty easily.
moncla .. that's the way we do it too.. all at once.. only we use yellow glue and the collins clampsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I get a decent tack in 15 or 20 secs with a high viscosity yellow glue like Pro-Bond, Titebond or LePages, then masking tape till it sets. I've got enough to haul around without another set of clamps. If pressed for time, 23ga pinner.
you've never tried the beauty of using Collins clamps, have you? Once tried, they are something you can't live without.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've googled, searched, no luck.
What are Collin's Clamps?
Where are Collin's Clamps?
Who's a Collin Clamps?
you can find them here-
http://www.collinstool.com
same people that make the coping foot for jigsaws
and I'm thinking about those Bunny planes
edit to include- Oh yeah, and get the pliers for the miter clamps. Those things are stronger than they look.
Edited 9/19/2005 8:23 pm ET by Shep
Thanks. So thats a Collin's Clamp. Don't tell Piffin, but on occasion I've run DW screws through the end of plastic squeeze clamps to achieve the same effect.
http://www.collinstool.com/base.php?page=collins_miter_clamps.htm
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!