Hickory Flooring Layout Advice for Large Area
Hoping some of those more experienced than I can help with some layout options before I get started. My wife picked out some very nice pre-finished 5″ wide hickory flooring that we plan to put throughout most of our first floor (1000sqft). I researched the product and company and it seems to be a quality product. I realize that hickory tends to expand/contract more than other woods, and I live in MN where we have dry winters and humid summers. I have a humidifier for winter and run the AC in the summer, but I’m sure I’ll still see some movement. The flooring has been cross stacked in the house for 2 weeks and will stay there for another 2wks. I’ve been trying to measure moisture content, but I cant find a meter that works – I just get 0% all the time.
The space I will be working in is essentially a big L shape. The flooring will run about 40ft in length, and about 35ft in width. My concern is with the width and the amount of movement I’ll see. There are links below to 3 possible layouts (couldnt figure out how to attach or embed….).
Option 1 – I could start at my left wall and work my way all the way to the right. This is fairly straight forward, but it will maximize the movement seen at the walls.
https://flic.kr/p/2ifSB4k
Option 2 – Start in the middle with a spline and work both left and right. This would aim to split the expansion/contraction to two different directions. I understand that wood grows towards the tongue more than the groove.
https://flic.kr/p/2ifSB4A
Option 3 – The most complicated option. I would start at “middle” of the left half and the middle of the right half with two splines working my way out from both. Where the two sections meet in the middle at the doorway, I would put some form of a T molding to cover up a planned expansion joint.
https://flic.kr/p/2ifP8ro
Am I overthinking this? It’s about 30-35%RH in the house right now with the humidifier on (any higher and the windows get condensation) and I suspect it will be in the 50s this summer.
Thanks for any help!
Replies
Greetings.
I’ve never done any flooring involving hickory. Is this solid or engineered?
Regarding your metering, have you been trying at cut ends ir rips?
Are there heating runs under this floor, running up in the joists and what type of subfloor are you working with.
Above is just a few more pcs of info we might need for a decent answer.
I'm heading out in a minute, so don't have time to look at your layouts. I can recommend this book: https://www.tauntonstore.com/wood-flooring.html
Yeah, I'm schilling a bit since I'm the co-author, but I make like fifty cents on each sale, so really, it's just about pointing you at good info. Charlie, the guy who actually provided all the knowledge, is the real deal. It covers these issues in depth. I'll try to get on here again tomorrow and see what I think of your layouts.
Thanks for the thoughts. I've probed the boards everywhere and couldn't get a reading. I bought a pinless to today and am actually getting some readings. My OSB subfloor is reading about 9%, my flooring reads 13-16%. Seems high given that I want able to get a reading before - not sure what to believe. I checked some 100 year old barn wood paneling an it was about 7% and an oak mantle that I cut from a dead tree about 3 years ago is about 11%.
I guess regardless of if he numbers are right or not, seems the subfloor and flooring levels are still a little too far off. Disappointing given that it's been inside and cross stacked for 2 weeks. How long should this stuff take to dry out? Will lot ever get down to where my OSB is?
It can take a while for MC to stabilize. Have you got some fans going in that room?
No fans in the room, but I could throw one in there I guess.
I'm starting to wonder if the pinless moisture gauge is reading higher because of the density of that wood. The only piece of wood with equivalent density in my house is my oak mantle and when I check that thing its between 11-13%. It's higher at the knots which is a localized high density area so it sort of makes sense. Theres a flooring store near here that rents a high end moisture meter so I might go pick that up this weekend to confirm.
I just did a hickory floor in my in-laws house about a year ago. I honestly can't speak to the humidity levels in your area, or where your moisture content should be...but can tell you you're likely over thinking the install layout. You can start your first run against that left wall, just leave an expansion gap between the first board and the wall, and end your run with the same. The manufacturer of the flooring he purchased recommended a 5/8th's gap next to any wall, and nailing instead of glueing. I blocked off the 5/8th's with some rips of scrap, shimmed to make sure the first run was square, nailed down and went from there.
I agree over thinking it just a bit. It’s pre-finished, so that helps. It’s acclimated 2 weeks in winter, it’s not getting any drier unless you cook it. You have to match the humidity of your environment which is different among each region. Some places never get humid and some never get dry. I laid a pre-finished hickory floor years ago when living in MI (similar climate) and had no issues. If you lay in the winter when it will be the most dry you don’t really need to concern yourself with it shrinking more. The concern should be about expansion in warmer humid months. A couple things I do when installing flooring that is very prone to expansion. First, cut/clear all the drywall at base of wall to allow floor to slide under the drywall. Install baseboard and base shoe after that. That will give you roughly 1 1/4” for expansion (depending upon trim selection). Also, I sat in a flooring seminar a few years ago. They instructed that once you get to 6” width wood flooring the flooring should be glued and nailed directly to the subfloor as you have less mechanical fasteners to keep floor in place. It’s kind of like laminating the finish floor to a stable plywood. At 5”, I could see the benefit of gluing along with nailing. Also, I would recommend flooring nails vs staples. I staple most flooring as they tend to hold a little better, but with harder woods the staples tend to split the tongue. Also, use a pneumatic assisted nailer. Your arms will feel like they’re going to fall off if you go with the old school nailer. Hickory is hard stuff. Also, use CDX vs OSB subfloor if possible (but not necessary), nails hold better in CDX.
What kind of glue do people use for hardwood? If I glued, wouldnt I have to forego the felt or aquabar underlayment? Whats worse, fewer fasteners with a moisture barrier or glue to supplement holding power?
I plan to try staples at first because Ive heard they hold better in OSB which is what i have.
Really appreciate the input. Id rather overthink than have this expensive wood go south on me a few months after install.
Remember my question about heat ducts running under the floor in a joist space? I have been asked by homeowners my guess why there was a pattern of shrinkage a couple feet wide across the room.........not our install.......and could easily see that path ending at a floor register.
Insulated above where we had access and hopefully after a while things evened up.
Just another could be important down the road tip.
Stapler? Have used both and had no problems with staples provided the air is adjusted properly on the flooring stapler. And if hickory floor is as difficult to split with an axe, don’t think you’d have much trouble.
Best of luck
Bostic has some good flooring adhesives if you do that as well. Neatness, highly recommended.
Vapor barrier is only needed when installing over concrete or unique conditions like above sauna room etc (I wouldn’t install a wood floor in areas like that anyways). It is advised not to use a vapor barrier b/c it can trap moisture from spills. Also, minimal humidity from bathroom, laundry or kitchen below can build up and be trapped below the vapor barrier and warp the subfloor. If your home environment is properly climate controlled moisture and temp differences between rooms and floor is minimal. The floor can dry out a lot better with no barrier. I’ve installed quite a few floors in my time and have hired out installers as well. We all use a breathable type paper for small width flooring where glue is not used to separate the surfaces and no paper for wide width glue down. You don’t need to spend time troweling down the glue as it’s mechanically fastened floor. We use a good quality PL tube glue assisted with our pneumatic caulk gun. The solvent based holds a bit better, but is very hard to clean off the finish. We usually opt for the new water based types as it cleans easier and will not give you a massive headache from fumes while installing. Have had no problems installing this way.
* The Internet says go with cleats over staples: https://www.uniquewoodfloor.com/blog/deciding-between-cleats-vs-staples-when-nailing-your-hardwood-floor/
* Airflow in the room will help. So will turning off the humidifier temporarily. I would do both for the next two weeks, and restack the boards midway through to ensure full exposure.
* Moisture moving out of the wood is proportional to moisture differences between the wood and air; Green wood dries out from 30% to 20% in a 10% equivalent moisture house air in just as much time as it takes to get from 20% to 15%, or from 15% to 12.5%; It's an asymptotic rate process. Equivalent moisture content vs relative humidity conversion chart here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.html suggests that with a typical HVAC setup you want between 6% (winter) and 9% EMC (summer) as an ideal; Perfection is splitting the difference at 7.5%.
* The Internet says wait until EMC is within 3-4% of subfloor, or with wide plank flooring (which I guess is more sensitive?) within 2% of subfloor
* It's really the very large differences that cause substantial defects, which were universal for people in a hurry to finish, before kiln drying was widespread. People in carpentry say that green wood boards being dried in household air (or sometimes outdoor air) instead of a kiln require "about 1 year per inch of thickness" to dry to stable levels suitable for crafting furniture.
* People also note very substantial issues with dry premade hardwood flooring absorbing water from remnant moisture in paint, drywall, framing lumber, and wet-laid insulation. Not likely an issue in your case, but I dislike that humidifier if it's anywhere near this room.
* Can't offer much for the moisture barrier / underlayment / adhesive questions, but a relevant question is - what's underneath this room?
Yes i have heat runs under the floor but I have tall open web trusses with mostly insulated heat runs. The heat should be fairly uniform under the floor.
As far as adhesives go, what's the preferred application? I don't think I need a full spread so that leaves me with the linear bead next to the grooved side, serpentine, or partial spread. In looking at tube vs bucket, the tube stuff is way more expensive. Would partial spread with a v-notch over OSB give me a little extra peace of mind against squeaks and movement? Ive read good stuff about the Bona pre treatment and adhesives
We use tube glue. Also, just standard PL types of glue. It’s a wood to wood connection, nothing special. We use one big bead in the center as it will squeeze flat to connect with almost all the underside of the board. The PL is a filler type glue, so is a better option than a light trowel. When troweling you only have a skin thick layer of glue. Good for vinyl but not for wood. Also, we nail every 6”. Make sure to screw off any squeaks on subfloor as 9 out of 10 times the squeaks are caused from subfloor to joist connection.
Talked to the MFG of my flooring and they default to the NWFA which recommends glue assist.
Anyone ever used the urethanes or silane products like titebond 811 or wakol Ms 262? I can find them in stock locally and cheaper than bona.
They recommended not using PL unless it's the urethane type. They said it needs to be flooring rated and needs to remain elastic. Construction adhesives get too hard and will eventually crack I guess
We’ve always used PL types with no issues. If you were to install a glued only type wood floor you would need to be concerned more, but you are nailing every 6” and 2” off of corners the glue doesn’t need to be that flexible. Also, there are PL types that are more flexible than others and they have urethanes as well. Most manufacturers say you can nail 5” w/out glue. You are using glue as well, so connection will be solid. Any good bonding wood to wood construction adhesive will work. I wouldn’t bother spending more $ for an expensive specialty glue.