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Hidden support column in wall

wildbill38 | Posted in Construction Techniques on November 8, 2009 06:37am

I am proposing adding a 2nd sty. and the plan designer called for a column in the kitchen wall. The column will support most of the load of the second sty. gable/ end wall and roof load, (floor joist will be hung off the beam that the column will support). The plans call for a 3 1/2″ Sq. engineered wood column with a top bearing lenght of 5-1/8″. Not sure how this is achived with a 3 1/3″ col???.  My question is, not knowing the cost of this type of column, but I do have a quote ($240) for a square engineered 3 1/2″ steel coumn delivered to job site, with prefab. bearing plates all made up for the column.  Does this some reasonable or is a 3 1/2″steel lally col. buried into the finished wall more cost effected???  The column, would be set into a 2×4 wall and drywalled over. The column would also be supported by sitting on floor, on a engineered heater on  lally columns from  beneath.  Sorry for such a long question, I hope someone could help me here. Thanking you in advance, RWC           

PS:. Would appreciate any answers also go to my e-mail address of RCos1@aol, as I am having some problems with this PC and get my mail from another PC, again thank you all very much for any help you can provide me.

 


Edited 11/8/2009 9:33 am ET by wildbill38

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  1. frammer52 | Nov 08, 2009 05:56pm | #1

    This is an engineering problem.  Best contact an engineer and get your answers.

    Us internet engineers are good, but we have limitations!>G<

  2. AitchKay | Nov 08, 2009 06:19pm | #2

    Sounds like it's already been engineered, and an engineered-wood 4x6 (3 1/2"x 5 1/2") -- e.g. Paralam, LVL, etc. -- would work fine, giving more than the necessary bearing.

    Contact your local suppliers -- they'll know what the plans are calling for, and you should be able to find an in-stock item.

    AitchKay

    1. wildbill38 | Nov 08, 2009 09:14pm | #3

      Thanks AitchKay, you are correct but in my case, I can't put the column in the way they call for, before it has to be in a 2 X 4 wall, and then it would run at right angle to the beam instead of parrallel.  I guess what I am trying to say, how would this be done and get the bearing of 5 1/8" called for.  I have never done this type of framing before and would like some ideas about how to do it and if what I purpose would work just a good as the engineered col. and would be rated for the same load design.  Thanks again for any help you could give me  RWC

      PS:: help with such as how to fasten col. to floor and how to run up thru ceiling, does top plate need to be removed on the wall or  just run new col. to the underside of plate, and how is it  held in place etc.  Sorry, am asking a lot here, but believe me  I would appreciate all the help I can get, terrible to get old. LOL.

      1. AitchKay | Nov 08, 2009 10:55pm | #4

        Does this mean that the beam is narrower than 5 1/8" (perhaps 3 1/2" w), and that, in order to get that 5 1/8" bearing, you'd have to turn the beam 90º so that it no longer fits inside the wall?In that case, I'm afraid it's back to whoever drew the plans, or off to an engineer's office. That, or see if the customer can live with a bumped-out column, I guess.Good luck!AitchKay

        1. wildbill38 | Nov 08, 2009 11:10pm | #5

          AitchKay, yes sir, you hit it right on the head.  But because of a hallway, col. has to be installed on the narrower side, 3 1/2" to fit the wall.  That is why I am thinking of a steel square col. rated for this load. Just not sure how to fasten it in place and if the Bldg. Inspec. will accept this.  The steel col. would have a steel plate made up to run the 5 1/8" under the beam.  Again thks very much for looking at and taking the time to try to help me.  Back to old drawing board again, I think, LOL.  Let me know if you think of anything more, RWC

          PS: Also just curious why the beam needs 5 1/8" bearing plate????  Not into this new col. and beam load stuff.

          1. AitchKay | Nov 09, 2009 12:09am | #6

            For standard headers, the ROT I’ve used is to add a 2nd jack stud if the opening is over 6’. That works out to a 3”x 3 1/2” bearing surface.If, say, a structural ridge was supported by a garage-door header, I wouldn’t be surprised to see an extra jack or two thrown in by the engineer.Sounds like your designer wanted the extra surface area. It’s all based on the crushing strength of the wood -- twice the area can take twice the load before failing.Don't ask me how they calculate this stuff, though!AitchKay

          2. wildbill38 | Nov 09, 2009 02:05am | #7

            Thanks again AitchKay, I think you answered my question without knowing it?  If you reread my question you will notice that I am looking into useing a square steel col. instead of wood aand have steel bearing plates fabracated that would give this bearing surface.  Now I just have to figure out how install and fasten it to the wood structure and if it would be cheaper to look around for a closer seel supplier that would charge less because there would be no high shipping charge for the column and plates.

               Thanks again very much my new adviser LOL, Sincerely, Bill (RWC)

      2. Clewless1 | Nov 09, 2009 05:18am | #9

        You have to remember that the design called for a certain bearing (5 1/8") that is irrespective of the nature of the column. That bearing has to do with the beam being held up, not the column. The BEAM requires that, not the column. If I remember my structural engineering beams and joists need certain bearing dimensions. That is why you might often see a larger bearing plate on top of a column ... to spread that beam bearing over a larger surface.

        1. wildbill38 | Nov 09, 2009 05:37am | #11

          Thanks Clewless1 that is just what I thought and that's why I am thinking of going with a steel col. with prefab or Simpson col. top plates. thanks again, Bill (RWC)

          1. frammer52 | Nov 09, 2009 10:32pm | #12

            And back to my original statement about needing an engineer.

             

            Funny how that comes into play when you change something that already has been engineered!>G<

             

            Dave

          2. Piffin | Nov 10, 2009 12:18am | #14

            He mentioned a 'designer'how does anyone jump to assuming that this has been engineered?I am a designer, and I often fall back on experience and ROT, but when I know I am challenged by the limits of my own engineering knowledge, I call in an engineer, but in this case, the OP has not used the word architect or engineer, and 'designers' have very little credentialing requirements in many places.So, if it were my house, I would certify whether this has passed engineering review or would hire an engineer to review and recommend. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          3. frammer52 | Nov 10, 2009 12:58am | #15

            I thought he mentioned an engineer, my bad if he didn't.

          4. wildbill38 | Nov 10, 2009 05:41am | #17

            Frammer52, thanks for your comments, also please see my answer to Piffin, again thanks, Bill (RWC)

          5. wildbill38 | Nov 10, 2009 05:39am | #16

            I understand what you mean, and of course I would not rely on just a designers plan.  The columns and beams have all been engineered by "Boise"  LVL products!!  Sorry, but I am not an idiot and I do know enough to get a professional  ok on the plans!!!! 

            Sorry, if I am trying to save a little money here, but with 3 heart precedures and an heart attack and then open heart surgery, and taking early retirement, I have to watch my finances!!

              Sorry, didn't mean to come on so strong here, bad day I guess, thanks for thanks the time to at least read my post.   Bill (RWC)

          6. Piffin | Nov 10, 2009 02:23pm | #18

            "Sorry, but I am not an idiot and I do know enough to get a professional ok on the plans!!!! "Didn't mean anything to sound like I was attacking you.But I don't know you and a lot of strangers happen in to this forum with a lot of half baked ideas, so I try to cover all the bases. For instance, there can also be 3-4 other lurkers reading this thread with something similar and do need things pointed out for them 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          7. frammer52 | Nov 10, 2009 05:14pm | #20

            Wow!

          8. wildbill38 | Nov 10, 2009 09:42pm | #22

            Puffin , thanks for the comment that you didn't mean anything  derogatory and I understand where you where coming from, ok, no hard feelings.  I was just very tired and this is getting to me because Boise can't be bothered to answer me. Thanks again, Bill (RWC)

          9. JohnFinn | Nov 10, 2009 03:23pm | #19

            I would be interested in hearing what Boise has to say on the engineering question, especially the bearing situation on a 3 1/2" sq. column, did they specify a cap? And, did you (or your designer/architect) let them know what your situation is here so they can specify a workable solution?

          10. wildbill38 | Nov 10, 2009 09:36pm | #21

            Aha, JohnFinn, now you got the right idea for me, BUT!!!!!!, -----  Boise engineering dept. doesn't even bother to return my phone calls.!!!!! That's why I came here, thanks for the comment and trying to help.       Bill (RWC)

      3. Piffin | Nov 10, 2009 12:08am | #13

        The steel will handle more than the wood will, so if the 'designer' did proper e3ngineering, the steel is an acceptable substitute.I recall a simi9lar once where it was engineered to handle about 50K# each. The concrete under it was more of a concern than the steel column.BTW, Round might be stronger than square in a steel one. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  3. RalphWicklund | Nov 09, 2009 03:42am | #8

    A couple of things not included in your description of the addition.

    Is this beam at right angles to the embedded post or is it actually part of the top plate structure of the gable wall?

    What other support is under the beam other that the embedded post and is this post supporting the end of the beam?

    Is this a single piece beam or made up of two or more LVL's or dimensional lumber, such as a double or triple 2X?

    If the beam is a 3 piece LVL it will be 5 1/4" thick when assembled and would typically be supported on a 4X6 post which could be embedded in your 2X4 wall.

    Depending on your local structural requirements there are a number of Simpson column caps which would suit your attachment needs. Check out the CC, ECC and esp., the CCC or CCCQ.

    1. wildbill38 | Nov 09, 2009 05:34am | #10

      Thanks for the advise, Ralph.  The beam  will be 2, 16" LVL at right angle to the post. Can not spare anymore room in the wall other then 3 1/2".  This col. will support the beam at about the mid point but there will be 2 other cols.  spaced out on one side of this main col. and then cols. at each end of course.  The column I am trying to figure out will sit on the 1st floor which  will then have an engineered header under that, on 2 steel lally columns on concrete footings in the bas't.  I don't understand why the plans call out for a 5 1/8th" min, bearing surface and I can't see why I couldn't use the Simpson caps like you stated.  I think that may be the way to go after I specak with the bldg. Insp..  Again thanks very much and any further ideas please just let me hear them , ok, Have a great night and a nice week.  Bill  (RWC)

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