So I’m installing a few punch list items in the laundry of my newly remodeled rental property. First thing I notice walking in is a blue-ish blobby stain about 3′ wide x 2″ tall on the wet wall of the laundry about 4′ off the floor.
I ask tenant, “Got any idea what this is from?” She replies no. I immediately think copper residue from wiring that runs horizontally behind the wall. I say “Have you had an overflow from the bath or toilet (above the laundry). She replies no. We talk about how wet they are when showering, and it seems that they know how to use the curtain, and aren’t lying about a toilet overflow. Then she says the other tenant notice a weird blue line at the ceiling level above the cabinets when putting boxes up there. I look and notice not just blue, but one small spot of blackish mold. Seems too that they’ve used the blue toilet tank type cleaner (or whatever it is). My initial thought is that the toilet is leaking, and the water is telegraphing through the tape joints in the sheet rock.
I look up the photographs of construction and sure enough it’s all jiving up. The main 4″ SS from the toilet runs parallel to the wall, literally centered on the wall plate above. The sheet rock joints are horizontal 4′ about the floor.
I take a peek at the bathroom, and around the toilet base, the grout joints show effluorescence and some discoloration. In the basement, there are drops of water on an adjacent vent line elbow going up as well as the nearest joist, and a wet circle below, indicating that while this isn’t a continual or large leak, it’s definitely the location of a leak. I flush the toilet, but nothing comes out from beneath the flange in the bathroom. Downstairs in the basement, however, water begins to flow — slowly — to those leak points I noticed before.
Based on my previous thread research it could be:
1) The drain line is plugged enough to back up to the point of the flange and “overflow between the ceramic tile and flange (about a 1/4” space — I know because I laid the tile and set the toilet)
2) The flange is set too shallow (it is pretty much flush with the finish tile floor), and the wax ring is not sealing well, thus allowing some water to back up into the space mentioned above.
3) The 4″ SS line is leaking from some source (likelihood of this is low — the blue glue was used by my plumber and we tested early before rock and nothing was leaking along this line.
4) Screw in the drain line (likely would show via a rusty screw spot and larger isolated wet spot on the drywall)
I know this is a long post, but maybe someone could give me a better idea on what to expect from a defective wax ring or plug in the line. I will likely pull the toilet, dump some water down the drain (to make sure the drain piping isn’t leaking), then snake with my cheap small snake (make sure there are not femine products stuck in the line — unlikely wouldn’t you think with a 4″ SS drain). At this point, assuming no leaks, I’ll re-set the toilet with 2 wax rings (one on bottom no cone, one on toilet with cone).
Any other thoughts? TIA.
Replies
I think what you outlined is the way to go, more or less. Re the wax rings, scope out the distance between horn and flange and pick a ring combo accordingly -- don't just arbitrarily put in two wax rings.
In some cases the space may be too tight between flange and horn, and you may have to try one of the rubber flange products instead of wax.
Also, when the stool is reset be absolutely sure it does not rock at all -- any motion will eventually break the wax ring seal.
You might do two other things that I always do when setting a toilet.
I take extra wax and completely seal the flange to the surrounding floor before I set the toilet. That way any leak between the flange and the toilet runs out onto the bathroom floor and not down into the floor where no one sees it.
Where the wax ring makes contact with the toilet I press wax into the porcelain so that the wax ring will stick that much better to the toilet.
This is right up my alley -- good thoughts. I am not a fan of caulking around the base, despite what many have said in the past. I'm not much a fan of caulk as a fix-all in general, although it certainly has its place in construction.
Thinking more about this, wax in those crevices would definitely forced the water out -- the tile is set on a waterproofing membrane (not so waterproof at transitions though because it doesn't wrap up the wall or over the flange.
I will keep all this in mind when I pull the toilet on Tuesday.
This project has been in service all of 3 months, so any problems are very NEW problems. I was just there for a few minutes replacing an electrical outlet, and there was NO leak in the basement -- I'm thinking more an more that this is a flush issue."It depends on the situation..."
We once had a failure in our flush valve where, when the tank was filling, water sprayed against the lid and ran down the back. Try flushing once with the lid off to make sure everything's OK in the tank. Also look for leaks at the spud gasket between tanks and bowl.And keep in mind that bowls can have defects/cracks that cause leaks.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
I am not a landlord or a contractor, just a drywall guy.
If I saw moisture coming through a wall without knowing exactly what the cause was, I would be ripping sheetrock off to find the source of the situation.
Drywall is a cheap fix compared to the effects of a water/ waste leak. Rotting wood can happen pretty fast, not to mention mold spreading.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Edited 10/19/2008 11:32 am by ruffmike
You are correct, however, ripping drywall out is applicable AFTER troubleshooting the first couple plumbing issues in my book ; ) I am pretty certain about what the problem IS NOT. If this were an existing property that I didn't know like the back of my hand, ripping out DW would be in the top 2 first moves.
Good point thought about liability.
j"It depends on the situation..."
If the sewer line was pressure tested and a decent wax ring was used so there's a good chance it's not a problem there, I'd be concerned about a pin hole pex leak.
Worst is a slight leak around a nail driven into a waterline since it can quickly turn into a catastrophic water damage repair bill. In the 1-6 month range a typical finish nail driven into pex will rust enough for a leak to start, so it matches the time of your construction.
Nope, if it were me I'd be opening up drywall ASAP rather than risk replacing all the lower sheetrock, insulation, flooring, not to mention loosing rent during the rehab.
I'm careful when running trim, but did have a situation where myself and 3 other carps drove nails into the same piece of base as it was replaced numerous times and one of us hit a copper pipe. 3 months later the entire first floor was swamped. We'll never know which of us hit the pipe, but it made an impression.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"I'd be concerned about a pin hole pex leak."
But that wouldn't be blue.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Depends on the color of the PEX.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
"Depends on the color of the PEX."
You know, I was thinkin' that went I posted, but then thought "Nah -- that's just not right". ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
But that wouldn't be blue.
Water slowly leaking in a wall could be all sorts of colors, depending on what's in the wall.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
FWIW, the sewer line wasn't pressure tested. The supply lines are AquaPex, and they had been pressure tested and charged up long before drywall was hung -- just to make sure that if we hit the plumbing lines we'd know it.
From what I can tell now, it seems to only leak when the toilet is flushed. I asked the tenants not to use that toilet, so when I go to flush tomorrow when I pull the toilet, we'll know if the flush causes and immediate drip then and there.
I like the suggestions though about making a clean, tight connection with the wax ring. Something like this sure makes one appreciate the importance of a $2 component.
"It depends on the situation..."
Like I said, consider the possibility that the leak is somewhere other than at the wax ring. Can be spraying out of the tank or leaking at the spud gasket.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
I had one similar leak recently and it was caused by insufficient glue between the toilet flange and the pipe it was glued into. Because of the orientation of the pieces, I belive the flange was just swabbed with glue and pushed into the pipe, and not twisted, and there were some small voids in the glue that let water by.
I fixed it by swabbing a couple of coats of ABS glue on the crack of the joint where the two pieces met, which I could see once I got the toilet off and the wax cleaned off of the flange. It was a tiny leak that wasn't under much pressure, but over time the drips rotted out the drywall in the ceiling below.
Yep, as I said, "...if a decent wax ring was used..." Obviously the wrong wax ring was used for this situation--the plumber probably saved $.50
You were right to check the easy stuff first rather than tear into the sheetrock. However, I'm a big believer in taking additional precautions if there is a chance a pex line has been nailed. I would have pulled the toilet to take a look there, then opened up the wall if an obvious cause wasn't seen.
Glad to hear things worked out well for you.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
drove nails into the same piece of base as it was replaced numerous times and one of us hit a copper pipe. 3 months later the entire first floor was swamped.
That's why electricians and plumbers are supposed to put nail protection plates on all studs/plates through which they run wire or pipe.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That's why electricians and plumbers are supposed to put nail protection plates on all studs/plates through which they run wire or pipe.
True, but unfortunately, they only have to put plates over the studs, but if a base nail is just to the side of the stud there's no protection.
Pex changes the way trim carps work, or they will eventually learn it the hard way.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Pex changes the way trim carps work,
So do nail guns....
I have real trouble with the concept of only studs having protection plates on them; if I fire a nail into a pipe that wasn't protected by a lazy plumber while I'm replacing base and shoe after laying some new flooring, the lack of that 25-cent steel plate could conceivably cost me multiple thousands of dollars.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
sometimes I've found that the wax doesn't stick to either the porcelain or the flange because they are moist.
I get my plumbing torch out and dry them off. I also melt a little wax onto them so I know that the wax is completely adhering to the porcelain and the flange.
Then the wax ring is firmly imbedded into the wax.
I know this might be overkill but with problem flanges I go overboard.
Edited 10/19/2008 9:31 pm ET by popawheelie
Special rings should be used to bring the flange up to the correct height. The flange should be at floor level or above slightly.
Don't use a stack of wax rings.
Check the wax ring fits the flange. I had a problem where the ring would drop into the flange hole as the toilet was lowered into place.
I now install the wax ring on the flange then lower the toilet onto it. A mirror at 45 degrees gives a good guide view as you lower the toilet.
What I've found works real well is to set the stool on a couple of on-edge 2x4s, then get it centered. "Fold down" the 2x4s and center again, then remove them.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
I used a PVC spacer, screwed into the flange holes (well, where they lined up anyway), to bring the setting ring to the finish floor level. Granted, however, I did not put any glue or sealant between the spacer and the flange, and it sits pretty much flush with the finish floor. But I have done this before and never had a problem -- differnet toilet mfr and it *was* a while ago.
I am planning on pulling the toilet tonight, so hopefully I can troubleshoot with all of this excellent information and come away with not only an answer, but a solution as well. Thanks to all so far!"It depends on the situation..."
I always put a "line" of silicon between the rings, just incase!
I always draw a line of powder, just in case!
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
I'll bet the flange is cracked. Is the toilet loose? This happens VERY OFTEN when plumbers don't set the flange right and compensate by toruqing the it down with screws. Before you go putting new wax rings on etc. check for cracks with GREAT care, as you may not be able to see them right away. It will happen agin if it is and you don't replace it.
And tear that drywaal under it out. Moisture + Air + Drywall paper = BAD NEWS
For the record, and to complete this thread, I pulled the toilet tonight. I found the wax ring to be practially un-touched! It has not been squished hardly at all, and was barely attached to the toilet base -- more so to the floor flange.
In addition, the wax ring was a bit off center from the bolt holes, although clearly water had been either washing ABOVE the ring or below the ring in one particular spot. Enough of the water escaped to cause the leak, and appears to have exited the piping, seeping through the bolt solts, thereby leaking under the tile resulting in effluorescence and also through the sub floor, down the wall and into the basement.
Clearly from the inspection, this was not a consistent, all-the-time sort of thing, because upon showing up the basement and joists above were dry. However, there was enough water to have saturated some of the wall framing and drywall to stay somewhat damp and generate a bit of mold growth. At this point, repainting those stained areas and cleaning with a bleach / water solution should have the appropriate impact on the mold growth.
I think tearing drywall out under the circumstances is overkill, and certainly not worth the investment of repairing everything for a small leak. That being said, I am extremely happy to be the kind of landlord who pays attention to things -- Had that stain not been on the wall for whatever reason, however, I probably still would not have noticed for quite some time. And a leak like that is one that could cause MAJOR damage over the months, maybe years, of leaking.
Thanks everyone for the comments. I think the best result of everything at this point is the following:
1) Make sure the flange top is above the finish floor surface to ensure good compression of the wax ring.
2) Use extra wax and squeeze into the voids between the flange and adjacent floor material. This is actually my favorite, because if forces any problem water to leak out from the base of the toilet, which can then clearly be seen.
3) Potentially use two, or at least one of the larger type wax rings to ensure compression on less than perfect installations.
That's about it.