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Replies
Give me an F? .....Give me a break, I really want to know the answer. Other than maybe squeezing another board or two out of a tree, why did the standard change? If you answer this one, maybe I won't have to ask why none of the 2 x lumber I recently purchased measured the same as the existing boards on my 25 year old house.
I'm serious. I'd be willing to bet that profit plays a big role in it.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Thanks for the info. I suspected profit was the motive, but I thought there might be a different reason like more finishing required on todays lower quality lumber. Time has a way of affecting one's memory, but I believe that the lumber that my grandfather bought and used seemed straighter and had less deffects than what I see at the store today.
Even if I only need a few 2 x 4s, I have to sort a considerable part of a bundle to find decent pieces.
Is it just me or do others have the same problem?
I have the same problem my brother.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
When you go to home depot you have to pick thru the cull everytime and that just makes for more culls for the next person.So the impression is that all the lumber is crooked.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I guess I'll just have to allow more time when purchasing lumber. Time for sorting and re-stacking the pile of boards after searching for the ones that look like they are useable. Fortunately, this is not any everyday event for me.
Experienced carpenters, the real pros, probably know how to work around less than optimal boards. But, when you are an amateur like me, you don't need extra difficulties to contend with like twists, bows, splits, etc.
Back to the width of 2 x 4s - I purchased a pre-built storage shed from the Mennonites several years ago. I noticed that at every location where the edge of a four foot wide sheet of sheathing was attached, they butted two 2 x 4s together to provide better (wider) nailing flanges. Has this become a standard practice or are the Mennonites just in keeping with their tradition of excellent workmanship?
That's the way I've alwys done it.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
I guess I'll just have to allow more time when purchasing lumber. Time for sorting and re-stacking the pile of boards after searching for the ones that look like they are useable. Fortunately, this is not any everyday event for me.
I have this attitude that if I expect prices similar to smaller contractors, then I should use run of pile material then cut around the waste. If I do this then I don't feel at all bad when I really need to sort.
@@@ believe that the lumber that my grandfather bought and used seemed straighter and had less deffects than what I see at the store today.
It was.
He was buying lumber cut from old growth trees. It was straighter and had less defects. Of course, that tree may have been 100-200' high instead of the pecker poles they cut today - tree farm stuff on a 70 year rotation. Our future is manufactured lumber products - ply, osb, lvl, etc. Take smaller trees and make into fiber.
The fascia on my condo - 60s - is 5/4 heart redwood - back when redwood was actually red or deep red, not slightly pink or white sapwood. Nowdays what do you buy for fascia? Spruce or fir.
Remember when cedar siding was clear grained? Remember when they chaged the span tables to reflect the departure of old growth lumber? Now the growth rings are 1/4 to 5/16" apart on some of these boards. Termites love it.
We looked at a fire renovation project down in LA by Exposition Park. Slum now. Nice once - 20s. It was framed in actual 2x4s. Nice stuff. No termites or rot seen.
There have been some improvements. In the '90s we must have been shipping Home Depots in CA all the crap we didn't want in the NorthWet, because the stuff was awful. Covered in mold for openers. Had to cull way down the pile. It's a lot better now. However, we can still find products on the shelf in the Wet that I have not seen in SoCal.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Thanks for your reply.
I wonder if problems that we see with today's wood products is the reason that we see a lot of new buildings going up with galvanized steel studs, plates, etc.?
One person told me that the reason our lumber selection is so poor is that the logging companies are sending the best boards to Asia and the less desirable ones to domestic customers. I asked why the best was going overseas and his response was that their quality standards would not allow the use "the crap" that Americans are forced to make do with.
Don't know if this is the truth but it does make you wonder.
-Scrapyard
@@ I wonder if problems that we see with today's wood products is the reason that we see a lot of new buildings going up with galvanized steel studs, plates, etc.?
Had a conversation with an exec from Lennar a few years back and his take was that they would be doing all steel construction in about ten years. Uniform, etc.
One person told me that the reason our lumber selection is so poor is that the logging companies are sending the best boards to Asia and the less desirable ones to domestic customers.
We would love to send boards to Asia. Have offered to cut metric. So sorry, no can do. They pay top dollar for the old growth and it's shipped in log form for them to mill. That is why you don't see much of this. Can't afford it.
Of course, you can nip over to Ganahl's Lumber where they have excellent stuff. Was looking at lifts of really nice doug fir - graded Excellent. Seldom seen on the tracts. <g> Had a nice stick of redwood heart for $212.
Does remind me of the old merchantile philosophy of the 18th cent. The colonies send raw materials to Mother Country, who ships them back finished product.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
with an exec from Lennar a few years back and his take was that they would be doing all steel construction in about ten years
I can see that. But, it will because they won;t be able to beat down the lumber guys any more on discount prices on dimensional lumber in the billions of board feet.
I know an estimator for one of the big builders who was kept on for a project on finding out how much was spent on renailing to spec, red tags for no protection plates, and drilling of studs for mechanicals (amazingly, they had a "change in corporate focus right after that project was complete, too, simply amazing).
So, that sounds like some one is getting ready to make a case for light-gauge galvanized installed with cheap labor. Or "might be."
Hmm, stick-built roof on a galvanized frame . . . I can't help but picture birds-mouthed rafters toe-nailed (mostly) to that 22ga top channel (or the 2x "doubled" to it . . . ).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Don't think the metal studs work as well in a fire, but not the builder's problem. Sure easier to run mechanicals - just pop the bushings in the holes.No more rot or termites. Bummer! They provide us a steady income.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Don't think the metal studs work as well in a fire
Don't know if that's practically true--wood studs are going to combust at the temps that make galvanized studs sag, making your choice a member fully aflame or one starting to sag.
Sure easier to run mechanicals - just pop the bushings in the holes.
No more rot or termites. Bummer! They provide us a steady income
Naw, "cut" some corners and skip the bushings--there'll be plenty of work after that <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
@@ Naw, "cut" some corners and skip the bushings--there'll be plenty of work after that <g> . . .
But that's what inspectors are for - to make sure this gets done and protect the public. (Right?)
I inquire because SonInLaw made mention of a local builder of fancy faux chateaux that has a lot of lawsuits against him for hack work. Said that a local tradesman on a call in show mentioned that usually someone on the project speaks English. On this one, no one. Donde esta el Building Code? I am sure the crews were all American citizens.
Romex chafing on sharp steel edges... sharp steel stud now hooked to the electrical system. What next? At least wood is something of an insulator. I prefer to fix back stab wiring vs. finding shorts in walls. Less trauma all around.
PEX chafing on sharp steel edges...The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
sharp steel stud now hooked to the electrical system. What next?
<G> All-Pex plumbing system; 5/6 unused structural cable; hvac mechanicals . . .
Dribbling nicked pex that runs down to close the gap on the r/s ductwork, but only when the phones ring are the ducts energized . . .
Yeah, that might make for a call back or two <g>.
In point of fact, I, personally, see nothing wrong with using galvanized studs & framing--as long as they are sized & installed correctly. One framing point per joint, one side only into all 28ga would be a bit less than anyone (ought) to want.
But, "we" tolerate 5 and a half sinkers toenailed into a wigglestick only vaguely reminiscent--by squinting, a lot--of 2x framing. Which gets me, handily, to one of my Signs of the Apocyclpse in Construction--when the nailing schedules start appearing on sheet goods as painted spots . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
@@ Which gets me, handily, to one of my Signs of the Apocyclpse in Construction--when the nailing schedules start appearing on sheet goods as painted spots . . .
Good idea! It's here - 8" nail spots on Tyvek. Some OSB has grid lines on it. Not the stuff we buy, sadly.
However, how to handle a 4/12 sheer wall here and a 6/12 or 3/12 there?
One of our Habitat crews nailed the 3/12 as 1.5/1.5. Bring on the dots.
But then again, should they line up with the studs? I see some customization problems. We just do a lot of chalk lines. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
should they line up with the studs?
¿Que, Hefè? Nails is 'sposed'ta go in studs--when'd that happen . . . ? <G>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
However, how to handle a 4/12 sheer wall here and a 6/12 or 3/12 there?
Ah, just occured to me--different colors on the sheets.
Red for one pattern, blue for another, black for a third (oh, and "pictographic" destructions on the back on how to align the pattern to cut sheets . . . )
We can "dumb down" almost anything, until it has to fit actual "reality," of course.
(Just ask the kid at the register for a big mac, hold the club--the 'middle' slice of bread--it's not on his register <g> . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Just like plywood
used to be that 3/4" ply was 3/4" now it is 23/32" or 11/16" 1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
It's 18mm ply, like the rest of the world uses;-)
Edited 6/12/2006 4:10 pm by limeyjoiner
I can buy 18mm ply and it is sold as such, but 3/4" ply is still short of 3/4" and if converted into mm should be 19.05mm.
My point is that it used to be 3/4" and is still sold as 3/4" - I was told that gov allows them to sell it as 3/4 if it is +/- 1/16" either way and so they manufacture to 23/32" or 11/16" so they can make more money.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
My point was that 23/32"(18.25mm) and 11/16"(17.46mm) fall within the range allowed for 18mm ply and as most of the world use the metric system it would make sense for your government to "relax" the tolerances on ply to allow your plywood firms to sell their standard product to non imperial countries.Of course this is a mute point if your 1/2" ply is 1/2" and not 12mm or 1/4" at 6mm etc...."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Is your 18 mm ply really 18 mm thick? I went to scandinavia five years ago, and had a chance to see some of the metric solid sawn lumber. IIRC, the actuals were smaller than the nominals there, too. There were things that were quite close to our 2x4 and 2x6, but I don't have the numbers handy.
-- J.S.
Most of the ply I use is within 0.5mm of stated size unless you get the reeealy cheap stuff.'2x4' is usually 90mm by 45mm '2x6' is usually 145mm by 90mm, this all depends on the supplier. I have 4 or 5 different timber yards that i can go to that all have different importers and sawmills that supply them so I can usually get exactly what I want."Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all." Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)
Thanks for the information. It looks like the metric "2" is just a little over 1 3/4", and the "4" is just short of 3 9/16". The "6" is slightly heavy of 5 11/16". Your 2x4's would actually work better than ours for replacing the termite eaten plates in my house. I have to add rips of 1/4" ply to match the thickness of the old lumber.
-- J.S.
"gimme an F" is his signature. It has nothing to do with your question.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Give me a U ! :)
GIVE ME AN............. F!
I think Gunner is right on this one. Besides, math edumacation isn't what it used to be, so those eighths had to go!Bill
Easier to add up 1/2s than 1/8s?
more 2x's from a tree..
more profit....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
so at times you can find them with the bark still on them and at 1-3/8"x3-1/2"
again... profit...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think "Profit" is the wrong way to look at it. It's more like everybody wants their lumber as cheap as possible. Blaming the suppliers is silly.
If you don’t think every day is a good day, just try missing one.
I agree with BHAnd remember, saw technology is way ahead of the old stuff; kerfs are much thinner now.Speculating here: It may also relate to newer structural analyses and ability to grade lumber, which, perhaps, have concluded that the framing lumber need not be as big as before.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
Speculating here: It may also relate to newer structural analyses and ability to grade lumber, which, perhaps, have concluded that the framing lumber need not be as big as before.
No speculating here: Now that we have structural analysis by groups such as Forest Products Laboratories (FPL), you'll see that most of our houses are overbuilt. We can reduce the amount of low R value lumber we use by using Optimum Value Engineering (OVE) framing techniques and replacing expensive wood sheathing by lower cost foam sheathing. You get a more efficient house for less $$$$$ = win, win , win!!!
In my house inspection business, I rarely see a main carrying built-up beam to code (splices made within 6" of 1/4 spans, etc) but these houses are not failing. When you have inlet 1" diagonal corner bracing (or steel T Windbrake) plus interior drywall of code required thickness, you're now over code in most of Canada- either one would meet code!!! (don't know the earthquake prone west areas)
I constantly see exterior 2"x6" stud walls that carry no weight but their own that have heavy 2x10" lintels (headers) over windows and doors.
We are shooting ourselves in the foot over and over sacrificing supposed "structural strength" for energy efficiency. Less can mean more if you know what you're doing.
I agree to a limited extent re over building; but have 2 other considerations.
1) labor is a sugnificant part of construction and full depth headers are much less labor intensive than built up ones.
2) how many of the newly constructed homes built close to structural analysis standards are going to be standing tall in 200 years? It sure won't be the ones with vinyl sideing .
2) how many of the newly constructed homes built close to structural analysis standards are going to be standing tall in 200 years? It sure won't be the ones with vinyl sideing .
I would not be too sure of that. There is plenty of still-standing housing stock around here that was built over 100 years ago, with some pretty sh*tty standards used for materials and workmanship, and it looks as if that housing stock could go on for a long time yet.
And I have looked at the details of some of the stuff, what little there is here, that dates to 1805 through maybe 1815, and I am not amazed at any feats of overbuilding. I see some board widths that amaze me, though.
We are framing roofs today here in 2x10 and 2x12 material, when the same roofs would have been framed by the carpenters of the late 1800s in rafters two-thirds the depth. And plenty of those old wooden frames are still standing.
I am not a fan of vinyl siding, but I'll bet the houses underneath the vinyl will last a long time, if maintained weathertight.
full depth headers are much less labor intensive than built up ones.
What do you mean by "full depth" - full solid wood?
I believe that many of these homes will be around in 200 years barring much more severe weather from global warming. I've worked on a few poorly framed 100+ year old homes and wonder why they are still standing!
In a 90-110 year old 1+1/2 storey with a shed style 1 storey, 10 wide addition running the full length of the rear of the home, a dormer/bathroom (6.5x8') was built over the add-on. The ceiling/floor joists were rough 1x5" and 2x4" (with shims). This had an old cast iron tub plus front dormer wall sitting la ittle out past mid joists. I told the owner, a friend, don't you and your wife ever get into that bathtub together!!!!
"...replacing expensive wood sheathing by lower cost foam sheathing."When enough homes get built like that, it will only be a matter of time before we hear of burglers that went through the wall with a utility knife and a jab saw.I would never live in such a house.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
When my friends show off their new foam houses, I always ask them if they want to see how to get in their house with a utility knife if they lose their key.
<see how to get in their house with a utility knife if they lose their key.>
forget the utility knife, just use the key
somebody said to me yesterday...
buying materials at home depot is like sabotaging your own project...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Other day I had to buy a bunch of PT 2x10 floor joists at a regular yard.
I was busy checking for bows and knots never concerned with uniformity in widths.Get them to site and discover they vary from 9 3/16th to as much as 9 7/16 and one sucker was 9 3/16 at one end and 9 7/16 on the other.Could have dealt with them easier in a new floor but these had to be slipped in alongside old joists and under an established floor.At least at most Lowes the lumber is inside and easier to pick from with more time without the yard man breathing down yer neck. And the lumberyard houses all their PT outside uncovered in the rain.Gee, has it been raining lately? Dang is that stick heavy or what? Rip it to width? Sure, no problem.
be eating blades
Beware. RFID is coming.
Rich
I had to laugh at your comment.
it will only be a matter of time before we hear of burglers that went through the wall with a utility knife and a jab saw.
I used to trim trac homes and when we installed the hardware for the entry door they had us throw the long screws and the heavy duty plate away! I asked about it once and the project manager said, "Why bother, hell they can go right through the walls if they want."
I guess your only as strong as your weekest link!
Doug
it already happens
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Rich,
You need a zip tool and a good pair of boots and it's happening.
Ron
The first houses I worked on with insulation sheathed walls (Glasclad by Fiberglas) were for a housing cooperative in a pretty bad part of town in 1985-6. To my knowledge, no one has come in through the walls yet!!
Where's everyone's security systems??? I'm quite sure that even if you have an ICF, it won't stop those who want to come in through a window or door............up here that's about 100% of burglars. It's pretty simple: no security system = no security so the plastic walls versus other walls is a bit of a wash!!!
We're moving ahead folks! More energy efficiency for the same or less $$$$ spent.
" I'm quite sure that even if you have an ICF, it won't stop those who want to come in through a window or door............up here that's about 100% of burglars"One thing I always say to my customers when security comes up is that if someone wants in badly enough, you are not going to be able to prevent it.Still, at least there is some difficulty in breaking glass quietly (and you can get cut!).But through the walls, take your pick of the most out of sight spot on the house and take your time.Also, it is hard to put an alarm on the wall, doors and windows, sure, but the wall??I guess the alarms will have to be motion detectors. A pain in the #### if you are home.Apparently it is already happening (see above). How long before buyers start to question it?How long before some builder uses wood and advertises the security advantage??? Then the buyers will know.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
http://www.langleyadvance.com/issues06/044106/news/044106nn7.html
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
> I guess the alarms will have to be motion detectors.
Given that these new houses are so very tight, maybe all you need is a fan that runs to pressurize the interior, and a pair of pressure detectors. If the pressure difference goes down, no matter where the opening is, the alarm sounds.
-- J.S.
John,That's the kind of idea that you should be taking to the patent office, not posting on the internet.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
"it will only be a matter of time before we hear of burglers that went through the wall with a utility knife and a jab saw."Rich,This happened to my wife's bosses house about 10 years ago. They used a cordless saw and cut through the cedar siding ,sheathing and sheetrock and came in through the stud bay and robbed the house and also sat down and made themselves lunch and watched tv. It was the middle of the winter and there was mud all over the house and on the couch and the coffee table next to the food they ate.Joe Carola
Interesting point. If you were to build a 2400 sq ft house (30' by 60') and use 2 x4 exterior walls and spray foam insulation, vs the same house with 2 x 6 walls and fiberglass insulation, what would be the differential.
I know spray foam is very expensive, but with 2x6 costing 50% more than 2 x4 ????
>>"I know spray foam is very expensive, but with 2x6 costing 50% more than 2 x4 ????
Haven't built a house but doing a couple of multi-story additions several years ago, the cost comparison of 2x6 vs 2x4 when compared to total project cost was almost not noticable in the big picture. I don't think a lot of the money is in the framing materials -- know what I mean. ;-)
Insulation may be a different story -- don't know.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Yes, I understand, but you were talking about over building and consumming less resources. AND instead shift the focus and or dollars to efficiency. To make the connection, I thought you were referring to lighter framing. Trade less wood and therefore some lower cost for more expensive and more efficient insulation.
The OVE system in total uses less wood overall- single top plates, no jack studs or cripples at king studs, no lintels where not needed.
? No jack studs? Do they use brackets, if so and what cost? Do you really save anything? Save money? Enironmentally steal brackets are non-renewable. Plus you lose a nice nailing surface for trim.
Single top plates. HOw do you tie corner walls together.
"The OVE system in total uses less wood overall- single top plates"Using single top plates, your precuts must be 94-1/8 as opposed to 92-5/8"Joe Carola
> Using single top plates, your precuts must be 94-1/8 as opposed to 92-5/8"
That, or let the ceilings be 1 1/2" lower. Chop off the bottoms of the sheetrock and hide it behind baseboard.
-- J.S.
You can increase the framing spacing to 24" for a bit less wood use.
You can increase the framing spacing to 24" for a bit less wood use
That might save energy costs, but it causes an increase in medical costs.
blue
How do you figure that?
Medical insurance rates will skyrocket when the overbuilders see your 24" centers and have heart attacks.
I'm all for conserving materials but sometimes the battle that I have to endure makes the pain greater than the gain.
blue
Progressive builders been doing that for quite a while up here. The only way other ordinary builders can fight them is with scare tactics regarding strength, racking, etc.
When you calculate the actual amount/volume of vertical support wood along these walls, the 2x6 wall has about 5% more than the 2x4 wall!!!!
The other thing about going to 24 OC is that I bet you don't save that many studs.
All corner build ups are the same. Then with the number of windows in walls these days you still ahve teh same number of kings and jacks. Then with the fact that windows are centered on walls and rarely fall on teh exact 16", 32" 4' from a corner, you end up wiht an extra stud in there whether 16 OC or 24 OC.
Would be interesting to lay a house ut both ways and see just how many you save.
Oh! Forgot- two stud corners, windows designed to fit between studs. Thanks for the help and jogging my memory!!!!
My point is that people don't want windows four feet from one corner of the room and 3 foot 3" from teh other corner. They want it centered. YEs, you can carry conservation to the absurd.
yes and then be required to go to 5/8 drywall.
Cost Benefit??????
No, we're still using 1/2" gyroc here!! Just can't believe that it works well?
I understand that by code 24 OC framing requires 5/8". COuld be a local thing, or I could be wrong. Either way I think it makes sense to go 5/8 on 24 OC.
Heck, I use 5/8" GWB on 16" o.c.
1/2" on 24"o.c. is absurd. You would spend more money repairing the caved in walls.
by code 24 OC framing requires 5/8". COuld be a local thing, or I could be wrong
And if not by local code, then for sure by USG specification <g>.
Unless we muddy the water, and strap the walls . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
24 oc is by no means common yet across the country. Local codes in Chicago as well as many in the midwest change slooowwwly.
That said, I've built on 2ft modules in some neighbooring areas and 2x6 studs are min. Two stud corners, no one I know or have talked to will accept that as viable no matter what some one says to is advantages. California corners are a good compromise.
As with 16oc frame work, windows and doors will land where they land as per design.
The biggest advantage of the 24oc system is reducing thermo bridging through the framework.
I've been using 2 stud corners in certain situations for many years. I never got knocked down until just last week. The inspector wants three studs minimum. There's no reason, but he wants it, so I had to find a couple of studs and put them in.
Heres a drawing of where I use two stud corners. I nail through the osb to tie the two walls together.
I wish someone that has overbuilder tendencys could point out where I need another stud and what purpose it serves.
blue
Blue, nice to see someone thinking outside the box. You can use 2 stud outside corners also. The third stud supports only one side of the drywall corners!!! How much wood do you need for that purpose? Throw up a bunch of drywall "F" clips on the remaining inner corner to hold the drywall sheet edge; you've saved a stud and reduced thermal bridging.
I'm going to take a look at those "f" clips. I've hung drywall, but never used clips. If they work good enough, I'll start using them.
We used to frame for one company that used them at the ceilings. The finished drywall looked good. The hangers might not like them though.
blue
They might have been using them at the ceilings of central walls to stop the cracks/gaps that occur when trusses "uplift" at their centers. Can't stop truss uplift but you can reduce its worst effects.
Funny storey about this phenomenon: About 20 years ago, was doing an estimate for attic insulation for a new housing unit for our national police force. Noticed that there were joist hangers over the bottom chord of roof trusses that were fastened to the top plates of walls below with the intention of holding the trusses down!! LOL.
Talked to the GC; he says the police internal designer/project co-ordinator wanted the hangers. So I called the guy to tell him that "it won't work.....the forces in the truss system and wood movement are too strong." People may consider me partially wrong since no gaps/cracks formed at the top of the walls during the winter when this effect occurs........but the wall did lift up off the floor a bit just as I had predicted!
Edited 6/1/2006 11:15 am ET by experienced
> ........but the wall did lift up off the floor a bit just as I had predicted!
See -- That's the secret to hiding truss uplift. All you need is thick carpet. ;-)
-- J.S.
"...there were joist hangers over the bottom chord of roof trusses that were fastened to the top plates of walls below with the intention of holding the trusses down"
Have you read the Truss uplift
thread?
In that thread I told of a guy who nailed his trusses securely to the top plates of the walls. One of those trusses was a hip girder. And that girder picked up a section of the bathroom wall.
The crack it left was incredible. It was like 1/2" - to 3/4" wide, and wandered at an angle up the wall.
The HO wanted to go in and cut out some of the webs in the truss to allow it to settle back down. Hopefully we convinced him that wasn't the thing to do. I never did go back to see what he did...
Why you have to click on "Start" to stop Windows?
Haven't read the thread, BH.
Have another personal truss uplift storey from about 20 years ago:
In early January, added R30 blown cellulose to about R10 in a fairly wide trussed attic (about 32' or so) during cold dry run of weather. About 2-3 weeks later we have a real mild period of weather with temps 6-7 degrees C above zero (43-45 F) and fairly high RH.
Got a call one morning from the house owner (a doctor = $$$$ to sue......in my mind) who claimed he now had about a 1/2" crack at the top of his center hall walls. After a few days of the mild, humid conditions, stresses in the trusses changed and ....zap....in the middle of the night things let go and woke everyone in the house. They thought: a tree had fallen on the house .....a vehicle had hit the house......a meteorite hit the house. Luckily we had a good amount of info on truss uplift so things were taken in stride as they had noticed a big difference in their house after we had airsealed and insulated the attic!!!
Sounds like another job I was involved in. The trusses in part of the house had a sloped bottom chord. It went up for a few feet then dropped straight back down at a wall. When the trusses decided to go up, it split the drywall in half at the joint with the wall. The HO said it sounded like a shotgun going off. I imagine it must have been pretty loud - Several sheets splitting in half all at once. And it happened late in the evening when it was nice and quiet.
Be willing to make decisions. That's the most important quality in a good leader. Don't fall victim to what I call the Ready- Aim-Aim-Aim Syndrome. You must be willing to fire. [T. Boone Pickens]
by code 24 OC framing requires 5/8". COuld be a local thing, or I could be wrong
And if not by local code, then for sure by USG specification <g>.
Unless we muddy the water, and strap the walls . . .
I'm no drywall expert, but Ferguson's book say 1/2" on 24" OC is OK on walls. 'not on ceilings, though.
"If you were to build a 2400 sq ft house (30' by 60')..."
IF you were to build a 2400 sq ft house it would not be 30 x 60.
Picky picky. LOL! Go with the flow. LOL! 30 x 60, 30 x 80, . . . .
> And remember, saw technology is way ahead of the old stuff; kerfs are much thinner now.
Not only are the kerfs thinner, the dimensions are more accurate and consistent. My place was built in 1926, using lumber that was rough sawn in the two by dimension, but planed for consistency to 3 5/8" in the nominal "four" dimension.
Actuals on the rough dimension range from 1 3/4" up to 2 1/4", with a lot of it close to 2", and more under than over. The carpenters who built the place must have sorted out the 1 3/4" thick stuff, because that's what they used for all the plates. I'm using rips of plywood to get back to that dimension wherever the termites ate a plate.
-- J.S.
but planed for consistency to 3 5/8" in the nominal "four" dimension
From my construction science class back in the seventies, we were taught that the rough size "lost" an 1/8 to the saw cut, and another 1/8 to drying. That meant the lumber was a 1/4 smaller before getting milled to S4S, which "lost" another 1/8 to make some fraction of 5/8. The mills could then "round" 0.625 "up" to the whole inch.
Kiln drying (allegedly) was closer to 3/16" worth of dryin, which did not "leave" much material to mill to straight during the S4S. Customers start complianing about buying 3-5/8" and only getting 3-9/16? Simple, "revise" the standard to a nice, neat, half-inch increment (which gets real close to 89 x 38mm, too).
Now, if only someone could tell me why all the "chippy's" call 'em "backwards" ("4 x 2" instead of "2 x 4") . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
""Now, if only someone could tell me why all the "chippy's" call 'em "backwards" ("4 x 2" instead of "2 x 4") . . .""Well, they drive on the wrong side of the street to start with.
Well, they drive on the wrong side of the street to start with.
Strooth, even if they do at least know about quality beer (from time to time <G>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Speculating here: It may also relate to newer structural analyses and ability to grade lumber, which, perhaps, have concluded that the framing lumber need not be as big as before."
I was told the opposite by a local architect. They rewrote the NYS building code a few years ago and concluded that the framing lumber is no longer capable of carrying the weight that it once could. They had to resize some to make up the difference.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Eggsactly- profit plays a role but why use any more wood than you have to- save a few trees maybe.
DP
I'd think it was a combination of factors. Wood suppliers probably wanted to get more yield from each tree so they looked at the structural requirements and recalculated the standards of the time to prove they were over designing things. They probably lobbied the agencies/societies that were responsible for the building codes and proved that the structural requirements could be safely met with dimensionally smaller boards. And so it goes.
I'd also guess that more modern sawing practices and wet sawn vs. dried dimensions played a role as well.
But, if you are really serious about allowing yourself more time to RESTACK the lumber at the Dumb Depot you are out of your (Here's your F) f'in mind! I leave those stacks as sloppy as possible and I let them spend the time restacking it. I try not to ever have to go the Dumb Depot in the first place by keeping up a good relationship with my local building materials supplier but if Dumb Depot wants to put out crappy wood then they can also staff their store with plenty of people to restack it after I've spent 20 minutes looking for ten good 2x4's.
Bart
DAP Construction, llc
I try not to ever have to go the Dumb Depot in the first place by keeping up a good relationship with my local building materials supplier but if Dumb Depot wants to put out crappy wood then they can also staff their store with plenty of people to restack it after I've spent 20 minutes looking for ten good 2x4's.
It sounds like you're trying to justify your poor manners and disregard for others who may need to get some 2x4's by passing it off on the problems that HD has.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Joh,
I understand how it would be easy for you to see it that way. However, since you've never spent any time with me, I guess you really don't have a way to know what my standards are and whether or not I'm considerate or sloppy for that mattter.
You keep restacking those piles of crappy 2x4's and the folks HD will probably send you a check or something out of sheer appreciation. By not restacking them, I try to let them know that they're selling crap. I've tried emails, calling the customer baloney number they put on the receipts but it's all useless because they only care about profits. Spend a second talking to the employees and it'll be obvious.
But then you'd know what you're talking about and you wouldn't be able to make baseless claims about people you've never met.
I spend plenty of time restacking piles at the local lumber yard because they appreciate my business, deliver with less than a day's notice when they can, and stock quality materials at prices that often beat the Dumb Depot. If more people knew the truth about HD's tactics they'd probably do more business with their local suppliers.
Bart, polite, considerate, and here to serve my customers
Edited 6/3/2006 12:57 pm ET by barchiola2
However, since you've never spent any time with me, I guess you really don't have a way to know what my standards are and whether or not I'm considerate or sloppy for that mattter.
I don't have to spend time with you because you stated that you purposely leave the lumber pile "as sloppy as possible". I don't think I'm going out on a limb to draw the conclusion I did.
You keep restacking those piles of crappy 2x4's and the folks HD will probably send you a check or something out of sheer appreciation.
That's not why I leave the pile as neatly as I found it. I do it because I try to respect my fellow customers. I wouldn't want you to have to straighten up the pile that I left in disarray, and I would hope you would do the same for me.
But then you'd know what you're talking about and you wouldn't be able to make baseless claims about people you've never met.
Once again, I'm just responding to what you yourself said.
I spend plenty of time restacking piles at the local lumber yard because they appreciate my business, deliver with less than a day's notice when they can, and stock quality materials at prices that often beat the Dumb Depot. If more people knew the truth about HD's tactics they'd probably do more business with their local suppliers.
Then why do you ever shop there? If you have such a low opinion of them I would think you would keep driving past HD and frequent the yards that give you the service you demand.
You speak of HD's tactics, but do they force anyone to do business with them?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
barchiola2,
I have to go with John on this one. Yeah your right, Iv'e never met you so I'm not entitled to judge you.
I have on the other hand ended up picking through the mess that "other people" with bad manners leave behind.
Don't like Home cheapo lumber? Fine with me, but I'm not interested in picking through your mess.
Bad manners is bad manners! Too many people these days have the attitude they can crap where ever they want.
Maybe you are the same guy who doesn't use turn signals, or flush the toilet when your finished????
I don't know you, but I know plenty of people who act the same way.
Bill
Bill, John, etc.
I could go on about my manners and fine upbringing. I could question your position of defending the Dumb Depot. We could compare how many times we've wiped the toilet after urinating in a public restroom if you've ever bothered.
But I don't know you so I won't bother. Suffice it to say, personal attacks on a stranger by a stranger based on a vaguely contexted and very brief post to a public forum are ridiculous. It's called flaming and the most amateur of web surfers understand the rude nature of it.
So flame away. No further responses by me will be posted.
Regards,
Bart
Instead of stacking them back sloppily I would much more appreciate marking them warped so that I don't spend much time looking thru your culls.
Now as far as home depot I took back 70 bad cedar pickets and did an exchange told the pro desk I needed 200 more did some more shopping came back and they had included my 70 culls pissed me off.
I said look I brought these back because they were rotton or cracked badly so why would you even consider sending them out again and they go management won't let us throw them away or return them to supplier.I then explained that fence work is so marginally tight that I can't eat bad boards at 2.50 a peice which now have gone up to 3.50 each.
So now if possible I purchase new bundles only and return the culls and leftovers and I get out of there quicker because they'll load with forklift.
That incident I went back and looked thru there cull stack it most have been 400 deep without 20 usable boards.
But home depot boards are a full 6 inch wide which is 8% better than nominal cut.
It is a tough to make scratch in the fencing world so every advantage I can find I take Like 10% discount coupons when I can find them.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Old framing lumber was generally sourced from first-growth trees, no? My c. 1903 San Francisco house is framed with full-dimension rough-cut Douglas Fir. In remodeling, I've been amazed to find 26' 2x 12s (1 7/8" x 11 7/8") with beautiful near-perfectly straight and tight grain without a single knot. Also, the siding and most of the trim is clear redwood. For a while, I was buying used (salvaged) lumber from a local supplier 'till they ran out, now I either rip down from a larger size or shim up. I believe virtually all framing lumber is now cut from young fast-growing 'renewable' trees. Such is progress.Bill
True. I've also found old growth joists with 5" knots in them. One of my garage rafters is failing because of a big knot. Today they mill trees that aren't much bigger than the knots of the past.
-- J.S.
"Old framing lumber was generally sourced from first-growth trees, no?"
What's a "first-growth tree"? Trees have been around for God knows how long. Nothing exists now that I would call "first-growth".
Back in the 1800s much of the forests were clear cut for fuel for steam engines. So all the "old growth" lumber that people talk about may not really be all that old.
IIRRC, there's are actually more acres of forests in the USA now than there were in the 1800s.
By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go anywhere.
true, true. Maybe the Redwoods were 300 years old, but there must have been trees before then, right?
IIRRC, there's are actually more acres of forests in the USA now than there were in the 1800s.
I don't think old growth refers to the beginning of time, just that it had been around a long time, not like the stuff that is coming off of a tree farm.
Quality has definitely gone down hill.
All you have to do to see how the quality has drooped is look at an antique table, one board tops, some as much as 20-22" wide, if you found a board like that today I would almost guarantee that in 100-150 years that board will not look like the antique that your looking at today.
Doug
Edited 6/16/2006 1:41 pm ET by DougU
True, there are more acres with trees on them. But that's due to a lot of "farm" type operations where they only let them grow long enough to make a 2x4 or two. Look at the ends of the sticks at HD. The growth rings are tight little circles, and a lot of them contain heartwood that'll split as it dries.
The economics drives them to harvest after dozens rather than hundreds of years. For now, the only source of "old" lumber is old buildings. Big trees won't be cut again until the children of the tree huggers grow up and rebel against their parents' values.... ;-)
-- J.S.
The logs are sawn and milled green to 2" X 4". The kiln drying shrinks'em to the final dimension.
You can still get rough cedar in 1-7/8" X 3-7/8".
when I was a lad in the UK a 2x4 was 2x4 but watch out for splinters 'cause they were rough!
I think that is the point. IN the old days you cut a 2 by 4, and it was rough cut. Then mills started to plane the lumber and you ended up with something smaller. How a standard arrived at 1 1/2 by 3 1/2, I don't know.
Tom has it. It's rough sawn to the actual 2x4, dries & shrinks, then it's run through planners, or "dressed" to give a consistant size closest to the next 1/2".
Since I can't find the initial post on this thread, I'm making an assumption (dangerous, I know). I am assuming that the issue here is that 2 x 4's do not actually measure 2" by 4" anymore.
Those of us who have torn into an older building have experienced the reality of "true" 2 x 4 lumber. Some of the more "mature" members of our forum may have even worked with it.
In my brief glimpse over the ending posts, Jer seems to have actually answered the question.
Modern 2 -by lumber is still sawn to 2" by 4" at the mill, just as it was back "in the day". Anyone who has seen the old stuff can attest to the fact that all four sides display saw marks.
The new stuff is sent through a planer after being dried, which helps insure that each piece is exactly the same size when it leaves the mill.
The larger problem arises from the quality of the timber. Old-time 2x's came from old-growth trees. Most of the stuff we're building with now is younger than the person cutting it.
If you want true, straight 2x material with minimal barked edges and few knots, check to see if your local lumber yard carries "Euro" studs. They're more expensive, but they're all we use anymore. My last delivery was 100 pieces of 9' precuts and there were only 2 that went into the "cut for blocking" pile.
I am glad they are smaller now, remember if ya got a full 2'' 2x4 then yer gonna need full 2'' stock for every other size so it will match up.
I live in an area that is full of southern yellow pine and Woodmizer sawmills so,.... when people get ready to build a barn you can guess what their material of choice is.
If you've ever lifted full 2'' x 10'' x 16' rough cut thats only half azzed dried out all day long then you'd prably be inclined to agree.LOL
Circa 1955 2x were still 1-5/8, 2x 8 was 7-1/2 wide.
Recall Wehyerhauser was the impetus. The old mills built in 1900 ran double side tooth bandsaws with a 6 foot throat and think the blades were 1/16" thick, newer mills in the 50's had higher strenght steel at 50 mil thichkness plus a narrower throat (not too many big trees left). Weyerhauser brought out the 1-12/ about that time.
IIRC, there was an extensive article in Popular mechanics at the time about the changeover and strength issues.
After spending considerable time remodeling older (turn of the century--maybe a little newer) homes all I find are rough cut 2x4's.
Finding no bottom plate is pretty common. Studs went right to the subfloor and it was roughcut 1X. I think they decided to go kiln dried, (shrunk things a bit), planed 4 sides, and maybe, just maybe, figured to offset the additional cost by being able to cut a few more 2x's per tree. I don't know what dimension a sawyer starts with before all of the above takes place. Tyr
Since the topic has come up.... have you noticed how 2x's deeper than 2x8's are now much closer to the next inch down. 2x8 are now 7-1/4 deep, 2x10s are now 9-1/8 deep, and 2x12s are 11-1/8 if your lucky.
I actually thought once over 6 inches all dimensional stock went to the 1/4 inch
2 x 8 = 7 1/4
2 x 10 = 9 1/4
2 x 12 = 11 1/4
now you say to teh 1/8?
Well, I guess that small variances might accur across the country.
I've been a carp. for 22yrs and nominally demensional lumber 2x8 and larger typically was sized to the 3/8 fraction(7-3/8, 9-3/8, ect.) or periodicly to the 1/4". However, over the last ten years I've noticed the 1/4 differance more and more. Typically not a problem if everything the lumberyard sends is from the same source.
My point is that sooner or later---a 2x8, 2x10, and 2x12 will accually be 7, 9, and 11 inchs deep v.s. their called demension. I don't mind the down sizing for remodeling work when say for example you need to sister along pre-existing joists to stiffen a floor. The newer size lets you role them in much easier. But going from 7-1/4 or 7-3/8 down to 7-1/8 in the typical case of 2x8 these days seems, well, interesting in a general way as to what lumber companies are willing to do to shave a few cents per brd.
Lou,
I don't know if this is the answer to the 1/4 inch dilema or not, but on my log house, the log builder told me that I would lose 1/2 inch per foot of wall height and that seems to be the case.
My guess here is that the wider boards started out at their nominal width and lost that half inch plus the saw kerf before they were planed.
Steve
YOU lose it from the logs shrinking as they dry further.
And I am pretty sure the 2x12 and less shrinks about the same so it is not unreasonable to find a 2x12 that is only 11 inches if it is really dry from starting at 3/8th or so when it was wetter.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.