Replies

1. 
   TLE_ | Jan 12, 2001 04:06am | #1

   *
   Our county inspectors (central Michigan) would not pass that repair.

   An avoidable mistake was made.
   Ideally the house designer should be anticipating drain runs and noting framing details to accomplish this.
   Possibly the framer could have caught this early on - toilet drains are always a problem.
   Defiantly the plumber should have known better and brought it to the builder's attention.

   Sounds like some pain-in-the-butt framing repair is coming up.
   I would reccomend getting the inspectors input before you pay everyone in full.

   Terry

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Jan 12, 2001 05:20am | #2

   *darryl... you're the p.e.figure the strength of materials and the suggested repair...depending on the loads and spans .. the angle iron will probably do the job..we often remodel houses that were modified at the turn of the century. ( the previous "turn of the century" )...when they moved the plumbing from outdoors to indoors.....the joists are cut completely thru.. and the subfloor is the only thing holding them together,,,but they hung in there for the last 80 to 100 years.. go figger...b but hey, whadda i no ?

1. 
   kkearney | Jan 12, 2001 05:23am | #3

   *Darrell,You are lucky he left something on the bottom. My plumber cut 4" out at the bottom of triple 2x10.I made osb templates for local fab shop for steel angle and matching plate. Angle was notched from the top and plate was notched from bottom. Lot of bolts. Worked fine. He said there was plenty wood in the rest of the house!I have also seen the joist stripped with 2x4.KK

1. 
   Tommy_B. | Jan 12, 2001 06:32am | #4

   *Yeah, Gives me alot of faith in the p.e. designation.3" hole through 2x10 can make it tough to get fall over any kind of span and still maintain 2" of meat.Depending on how the other mechanicals are coming along, shouldn't be to hard to sister or replace joists. Possibly a gusset. I never fixed anything like that with angle iron. Good luck.Tom

1. 
   Joe_Hennessey | Jan 12, 2001 07:42am | #5

   *Engineer meets reality! Joe H

2. 
   RonK_ | Jan 12, 2001 06:03pm | #6

   *Darrell,There's not a chance that any inspector in WA will pass that hacking of the joists. Basically you have a 2x3 spanning 15' and 4 of them to boot. Not good for having a dance party.The fix is to get something above the pipe that can take the stress at that location and bolt it to the remaining portion of the joist. 1/4 plate with 3x3 square tubing welded to the plate as needed. The plate will probably have to be almost as long as the joist. You will need a gazillion 1/2 bolts top and bottom to take up the compressive and tensile stresses. You will need the calculations signed and stamped and approved by the building department. They may need it done by a third party may not accept your personal stamp.There's a guy out in Gig Harbour who specialises in residential engineering fixes. Forget his name now. May be able to get his name from the Pierce County building Department.An architect worth his salt should have forseen this and laid out the joists accordingly.Good luck.Ron.

3. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 12, 2001 06:21pm | #7

   *Darrel,Plumbers hate wood and hate loosing time....Your plumber is par for the course and your framer is too....It is typical to do it quick and patch it quick as asked to if the inspector asks.PE...Doesn't that make you more qualified than I to answer your question? On my sites it doesn't happen because I am the framer and the plumber...In your case your framer and inspector will know what they want to do and you can just add your PE to the mix....You will be fine and so will your floor....See note at door....gone skiing,aj

4. 
   Steve_Merrette | Jan 12, 2001 07:08pm | #8

   *Hey guys, Just a thought he may have his PE in mechanical, electrical or chemical or something not related to the building industry. there are all kinds of PE's, it's a title kinda like doctors use MD. you wouldn't expect a pediatrician to know much about neurosurgery now would ya.

5. 
   Darrell_Hambley_PE | Jan 12, 2001 09:10pm | #9

   *Thanks all for the input. The inspector won't be out till next week and I wanted some idea options to go over with him. I drew the plans to have the drain go down the bay between the joists to a wall and I thought the plumber would figure this out. He took it to the nearest wall. He's done two jobs for me in the past with no problems. I didn't plan on spending hours of engineering calculations for every screw-up for this project so the easiest thing I can see at this point is to simply sister 4 new 2x10's to the 'holy' ones and running the drain where it's supposed to go. $10 each...not a big loss.

6. 
   G.LaLonde | Jan 13, 2001 01:25am | #10

   *This points out a good reason to use wood I-Joists. You can make holes all over them in the right places with no problems. Haven't used regular 2x10 or 2x12 for years and never will again if I can help it!

7. 
   Steve_G | Jan 13, 2001 01:45am | #11

   *The plumber should have known better! Take away his electric drill and make him use a brace and bit.

8. 
   Tommy_B. | Jan 13, 2001 02:24pm | #12

   *Like I said. Worse scenario:I was on a job once where the gas fireplace installer ran his flexible gas line perpendicular to the joists for the length of the house, thirty feet or so. His method of "drilling" through the tji's was to bash a hole with his hammer from flange to flange about 6 inches in around, at midspan no less. This was very late in the building cycle, with all mechanicals complete. What a nightmare, I'm glad it wasn't my job.I wonder what its like to be that naive that you have no concern for structural integrity.Tom

9. 
   jim_at_great_white | Jan 13, 2001 08:41pm | #13

   *structural integrity is second to getting your forty hours per week. I've fixed enough plumbers and framers oversights to know this is true. jim

10. 
    Boss_Hog | Jan 14, 2001 04:05am | #14

    *It really ticks me off when plumbers do that kind of thing without considering the consequences. Makes me want to go in and "notch" their drain pipes and fix the floor system.

11. 
    wedgehead | Jan 15, 2001 10:23pm | #15

    *I made a similar mistake on my rough-in. 4" hole for 3"abs in 2x10 joist. Inspector was really cool about it. Let me sister a 4x4 up to each of the 2 offending joists, glued and nailed. I felt like I owed him one. He didn't just gig me on it, he gave me a workable solution that made everyone happy. IMHO that is how the system should work.

12. 
    jackowski_peter | Jan 16, 2001 06:04am | #16

    *re hole to close to the bottom of the joist.the guy is a butcher. that is not the way to work. ask the bum if he would do that to his own house. I know, I'm a plumber for 10 years - aka plumber god with a phd (plumbing heating & drainage)

13. 
    David_Thomas | Jan 16, 2001 06:25am | #17

    *Just to throw a trick in here. While ABS and CI have the same OD and require the same big holes, DWV copper is a lot smaller OD (almost an inch). More expensive and more labor than ABS, but no more labor than CI. So if you're ever stuck and trying to save an inch of wood, consider it.Tommy: "His method of "drilling" through the tji's was to bash a hole with his hammer from flange to flange about 6 inches in around, at midspan no less." The best place to bash a TJI is midspan. You are allowed smaller holes as you get to the ends. But better to bash as small a hole as possible. And there are guidelines on round and rounded holes. They're not supposed to be irregular or sharp-cornered. -David

14. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 16, 2001 06:54pm | #18

    *David is right...the web of an I joist is doing nuttin in the center of the span...near the stream,aj

15. 
    SamD_ | Jan 16, 2001 09:57pm | #19

    *The center of an I section ain't doing much of anything in general- 'cept seperating the the top and bottom flange....

16. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 17, 2001 01:08am | #20

    *wrong again...it is very important as you move farther from the center...It is under i shear loads...near the stream creating quite a shear in this amateur engineering thread,aj

17. 
    Boss_Hog | Jan 17, 2001 01:18am | #21

    *> the web of an I joist is doing nuttin in the center of the spanThat's only true when the I-joist is uniformly loaded. If you put an off-center load on it, then there's shear in the middle.

18. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 17, 2001 02:14am | #22

    *details....yaa....details...I still bet all the calculus you could throw at me that the center of the span can take the biggest hole in 99% of the uses we have residentially speaking....And that's what matters at Breaktime.near the stream,aj (a betting my milkbones)

19. 
    SamD_ | Jan 17, 2001 03:13pm | #23

    *AJ...... Uh.... Yes and no...... Sam

20. 
    Tommy_B. | Jan 18, 2001 03:48am | #24

    *David,i The best place to bash a TJI is midspanThere is no good place to bash a tji, top to bottom for a 3/4 inch pipe. I don't care what the specs say. And I agree with Ron on the loading.A question comes to mind. If the maximum size hole per the manufacturer's specs is made at midspan, where will the joist fail when overloaded?Tom

2. 
   Darrell_Hambley_PE | Jan 18, 2001 03:48am | #25

   *
   On the house I'm having built for myself, the plumber just drilled through four 2x10 joists for the 3" (3-1/2 O.D.) toilet drain. Due to the slope, the holes leave from 1-1/2" to 3/8" wood left at the bottom of the joists instead of the 2" per code. My framer calmed me down and said he see's this all the time; sometimes it's just physically impossible to meet the 2" rule and they put angle iron along the joist to strengthen it. Has anyone here delt with this before? Is there a commonly accepted fix in your part of the world? (I'm in the Snohomish, WA area).
   Thanks
   Darrell