Hi guys. I’m moving my home office from the first floor to the attic, and I need to figure out how to get the Internet there, as well. Here are the circumstances.
Cable Internet.
I have two conduits to the attic. The first starts right where the cable enters the basement. If I can use it, the run to the desk will be about 50 ft. Trouble is, I’ve got two 120 v. lines in that conduit.
The second conduit is on the far side of the basement, so the total run would be about 130 ft. That conduit just has a low voltage line for the thermostat.
So, will either of those conduits work? If so, what is the standard wire these days for a home network? I’ve got a pile of RG-6. Will that work?
Should I just go wireless? I’m not worried about privacy – my nearest neighbor is about 400 ft. away. I’m just worried about cost, ease, and reliability, and not neccessarily in that order.
Thanks,
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. –Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Edited 11/6/2005 3:27 pm ET by AndyEngel
Replies
First wired would work. I'd use the longer less interference run. Max distance for Ethernet 330' so no problem. If its not a hassle to run that's the cheapest,and most reliable. Use at least CAT 5e cable or CAT 6 if the cost is about the same.
I wouldn't use wireless unless: You have a laptop and want to work in different areas of your house. The cable would be impossible or very expensive or really ugly or some combination of these to run.
Wireless is the way to go. I have been running on wireless for about two years now and I am pretty happy. I would also recommend a brand name such as Linksys or Belkins. I have the old spec. which runs at 10mbs. The newer ones run at 54 mbs and higher. I am assuming you are running Windows xp. The set up is fairly easy. The only downside to the wireless is the cordless phone, but if you have 5.8 Ghz system phone system, you don't have interference. I hope this helps.
I hope this helps.
I love Breaktime. Almost immediately, there are two reasonable responses, both backed with experience, that contradict each other!
Thanks gents.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
I agree, use Cat 5e and run it through the conduit with the low voltage. If you use Pass and Seymour Cat 5 inserts, they're easier to terminate than Leviton. While you're running cable to the attic, run a coax up there, too. RG-6 quad shield is best, but if the RG-6 that you have is good quality, use that. If you ever decide to go with a cable modem, you would be done with just adding a terminal. The Linksys wireless can be about $59, minus rebate at Office Depot or Office Max. The Super Switch is about $79, IIRC.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Go Wireless. It's fast and easy to secure, just a password. I just built my summer house and wired it 'just in case' but still use a Linksys wireless router. I can use my laptop anywhere as can guests when they visit. In my apt. in the city, I am in range of dozens of neighbours signals, and it is surprising how many don't secure their connections.
One other thing, you can print and home network over the wireless connection also.
The best way to secure a wireless hub is to set it up to only recognize the IDs of your network cards. No password needed, and pretty much airtight.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
You are right, that is what I meant - the network key.
MAC tables aren't hack-proof
Plenty good in Andys location, but not in some places
Anyway, most Router/DSL setup pages are so dense, it's painfull to figure out where to input that info, much less figure out MAC addresses on your equipment...IP address, not so hard
Google Spinright, Steve Gibson made really good disk tools way back when, & has good intro. stuff to network security
My experiencwe with wireless is spotty: works fine in my house, only so-so in my wifes, with longer disrances and more walls etc invoved.Its nice havinng the wireless freedom with the laptop, but notifcably slower when working with/moving large filesI'd go with the cable to the attic - long route, OR to a central location in the house, and a wireless router with a hardwired worksation and hardwired port option for the laptop
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
both backed with experience, that contradict each other!
You expected different here?
Besides, you left out two important pieces of information in your initial request.
First, how are you getting internet now? If it's cable modem, that's different than POTS modem is different than DSL phone modem (if not by much from POTS).
Second, you did not say what o/s you are connecting--it can makea difference (if only in the "fiddly bits" at times).
Then, there's a sub-set question of "what do you want versus what you have?" Maybe you'd like a printer to stream phone numbers or contacts out of a cell phone. Or maybe a small printer to make kitchen lists, or print photo cards out. Sure, those can be upstairs in the attic--except for all of those times "Oh, don't got to all that bother . . . " Maybe a SoHo rig would make sense for future expansion. That changes the way I'd wire your attic office. (Like maybe I put the router near the TOS of internet access, and then hard wire to office, and then wireless (like blutake) within the office--or not.)
Appletalk, firewire, bluetooth, IEEE wireless--all have different answers, an unique mix-n-match possibilities.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm just worried about cost, ease,
Typical DIY issues. Why not call a professional and ahve it done right. Nothing like having an electrician drill oversize holes in the walls and ceiling, track mud through the house, tell you it's gonna cost 50% more if you want it done this week, and the sheetrock repairs are not part of the scope of work.
:)
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Because I will do it at least as right as any pro. Because no one else works on my house, except the well driller.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
I was joking. :)
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sorry - I saw that just after I posted, and was on the way out the door to pick up my kids.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Nope. My fault for trying to be funny.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Because I will do it at least as right as any pro. Because no one else works on my house, except the well driller.
Suuuure, you dang DIYers think you know it all ;)
If you do go with a wireless device, I'd recommend the Belkin "Pre-N" product. It's new, and it's based on a technology that actually uses the interference in your house to improve the signal transmission. Reviews have it running circles around the other manufacturers.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Nah, I don't think I know it all. I do learn by doing, though. In fact, my wife had some minor surgery the other day, and I tried to convince her to let me have a go at it. How hard can arthroscopic surgery be? It's just manipulating tools, and the procedure is well described online. I checked out buying the equipment, and it was prohibitive for just one application. Since the local rental yard didn't have it either, in the end we hired a pro.
(With apologies to Dr. Steve Bond, a real pro)
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
"Because I will do it at least as right as any pro. Because no one else works on my house, except the well driller."
Ohh, so now you're afraid to get your boots muddy with a little well-drilling mud? Big sissy...... ;)
Bob
You ever helped out on a well rig? I have a little. Talk about brutal and boring work!
I'll always remember the drillers I used in NJ. Glen was the boss, and Gene was the helper. Both great guys. Gene was Hatian, and his English wasn't the best. We often had to go through several iterations of a conversation before we understood each other.
At the time, I had an old F-250 that you didn't need a key to start. The switch has frozen once at about 30 below, and I'd applied channel locks to it. It was quite convenient really. I threw the key away, and figured nobody would know that you didn't need it to start the truck.
So, one day, Gene asked if he could borrow my truck to run out for lunch, since all they had on site was the big service rig. I said sure, and he asked about the keys. It took a couple of trys for me to tell him that I didn't have any keys, but that you didn't need 'em, anyway. When I finally made myself clear, man, did he laugh. I love how mechanical stuff can transend cultures and language. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
if you have cable in your basement, feed a cable line up tube #2, and terminate the coax cable into your modem. unless you have other computers to network. you might need a signal booster to beef up the signal to the attic, but thats just a couple bucks.
good luck.
Andy
Having installed "structured media" previously, I would put the modem at the cable entry place and run a Cat5E up to the attic thru the second pipe. This allows the rest of the house to wire into the router if you wish. Cat6 is great too, but until programs are developed which require data transfer at those speeds, it is an unnecessary expense.
Wireless; to me; is NEVER an option. Especially if you are doing your banking, have ANY form of personal ID stored, are using any form of proprietory software, or you have documents stored which are personal or not for release.
There was a segment on the news a few years ago where a reporter and an IT guy drove around Toronto with a laptop, and accessed over a dozen different systems within a half hour. They had "full access" to these systems including internet access and file access. And all they did was park on the street in front. They accessed both corporate and personal systems, some of which were 6 floors up according to the directory in the lobby.
I was lambasted by a "wireless" freak one day claiming that "there are over a million and a half different security codes available". I was tempted to inform him that todays computers running at over 2 GHZ (2 million operations per second) could crack that code in less than a second; however, we were in HD at the time, he was an employee of HD, and I was not in the mood to "educate" an idiot.
Locolobo has it right, put the cable modem in the basement...then get a Linksys combo Wireless/wired router...run cat 5 to your desk, experiment with the wireless later
Hey, while your at it, put a server in in the basement too...get nerdy with it!
Andy...go wireless...and if you don't have a laptop...Taunton should suppy one. <Wink!> A year ago no one could answer for sure if one could have wireless dial-up as we can't get hi-speed DSL or Cable...well....ya can!!! And it makes your dialup connection perment...you don't get bumped off all the time. Wireless printing is cool, too. We use Apple Airport extreme, with the PC wired to it, and the PowerBook wireless. Now if we only had a new battery, so we wouldn't have to plug it in for power...LOL
Peace, wirelessly
Please Give.....
http://www.redcross.org/
Andy,
FWIW, I use both wired and wireless in my house. The newer netgear router I'm using has a pretty good wireless signal through the house -- way better than I had two years ago. It's definitely improving in security, too.
On the other hand, the wired portion worked with no problems. Period. Ever. And it can't be tapped by someone driving by.
Given the choice, I'd wire when feasible.
When I wired up this house (3 story Victorian) a few years ago, I ran 2,2" conduit from the attic right to the basement. The conduit contains
telephone, fiber optic, CATV, and ethernet wiring. While I was at it, wired jacks to all the rooms in the house. I tried the wireless route, but the next door neighbor was running an illegally boosted wireless router that raised all kinds of havoc with my wireless setup, not to mention repeated breakin attempts. Wireless also won't work well if your house has tin/metal roofs or ceilings. I run a win2000 server in the attic office, and one in the basement for redunancy, along with a UPS and a decent hardware/software firewall.
Joe
Renaissance Restorations llc
Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
Forgot to mention, if you ever want to know who has wireless in your city/town, goto http://www.wifimaps.com, and punch in the zip code, it will show some rather interesting facts....
Renaissance Restorations llc
Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
You could use either conduit if you wanted a wired network, it's not really going to affect anything. Depending on who your cable company is, they may come out and help you set it up for a low/no cost, it doesn't hurt to call and ask. Ideally, you want the shortest wire run that you can get. You may want to consider wireless, simply because of the ease of use and expandability. If you put in another computer anywhere in the house, you have to worry about more cables in a wired system. With wireless, you can put it almost anywhere and have an instant connection. This is very handy if you have laptops, they'll work anywhere in the house and if you have a large house, you can get repeaters to expand the range very easily. Wireless networking really isn't any more expensive today than wired networking, other than the cost of putting a wireless card into each computer (since most computers come with onboard Cat5 connections these days).
As far as security, it isn't your neighbors that you really need to worry about, it's people driving by on the street who can not only connect to your internet connection but gain access to your computers if you don't have a secure connection. Luckily, it's usually about as easy as changing the password on your router to have a very secure home wireless network, there are plenty of guides online that will walk you through setting it up and securing it.
I've got a good situation for security then - I'm on the back side of a hill, 500 ft. off the road.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Hi Andy!
I've been wiring large business networks for years. Here's what to do.
Run Cat5 or Cat5e or Cat 6. All you need is Cat5, but if the other choices are available for the same, or almost the same, money, then use it. In any case, you'll be paying a premium since you'll have to buy by the foot. I always buy 1000' boxes of it. There's no need to run "plenum" cable in this case, which is designed to run within air-handling spaces in commercial settings. It's a bit more expensive, but is money wasted in this case.
Run the cable in the far conduit, the one with the thermostat wire. It would actually work in the one with 110v, but (I believe) that's against code. In any case, it's not the preferred method. Always try to run data cables 6 or more inches away from AC (unless you cross it at right angles) and as far as possible from any flourescent lighting, motors, fans, etc.
The conduit isn't, of course, required. You could pull the cable through any space that would get you where you want to go. Just avoid strenuous pulls, and any kinking and tight radius turns. Make sure you don't pull tight around a corner. That can actually damage the cable so that it still works, but doesn't perform well.
You don't say that you have more than one computer, only that you're moving what you have. So, if there's only one computer, there is no need for a "router", which is designed to "split" the internet signal for use at more than one computer.
If there is more than one computer, or you're actually adding and not just moving, then you'll need a router. I'd look in the Sunday paper for whatever is on sale/rebate this week, and get that. If it's wireless, no problem. Just disable the wireless function (there's a setup process) and use the router function only. If you ever get a laptop, you could then enable the wireless portion. There is definitely no reason or need to use wireless in this situation, especially since it opens you up to the possibility, however remote, of someone breaching your security.
Don't extend the RG coax cable and move the cable MODEM. That's been "tuned" by the cable installer to work properly at the length of cable you are currently using. It's a bit trickier to install the connectors on coax cable, and if you have problems, the cable company will have no sympathy (read: they will charge you to fix it.)
You'll need a crimping tool for the connectors, but you can usually get a fairly cheap tool for less than $20.00. It'll break after crimping the first 25 connectors, but you'll not have to do more than 2. Or 10 if you're having a really bad day!
When you put on the connectors, don't untwist the pairs any more than necessary. The outer jacket of the Cat5 should fit just inside the connector, with no pairs showing. I've got the color code for them. If you'd like, I'll post it.
After reading your work in FW, and having learned so much from it, I feel honored to be able to tell you a thing or two! :)
You'll need a crimping tool for the connectors, but you can usually get a fairly cheap tool for less than $20.00. It'll break after crimping the first 25 connectors, but you'll not have to do more than 2. Or 10 if you're having a really bad day!
When you put on the connectors, don't untwist the pairs any more than necessary. The outer jacket of the Cat5 should fit just inside the connector, with no pairs showing. I've got the color code for them. If you'd like, I'll post it.
DONT crimp the ends on the cable
crimping is a bad practice and not standards compliant , if you do cable you need to terminate to a jack or patch panel then use pre-made patch cord to the device .
as a network pro crimped cable ends are the first thing I replace when troubleshooting and a sign to look for other poor cable practices .
DONT crimp the ends on the cable.c rimping is a bad practice and not standards compliant
Really? So how is it that the patch cables are made?
I suggested this way because it is a simpler way to do what he needs. Of course, adding a jack on each end, along with a pair of patch cables, would work. It'd just be more expense with little return.
FYI I just put in a circuit for an additional PC in an office this week. I crimped a connector on each end, tested the cable, and it works fine.
I buy these connectors by the bag of 100, and do this all day long.
I'm just lucky, I guess?... :)
Really? So how is it that the patch cables are made?
patch cables are made of STRANDED rather than SOLID cable , the reason is a patch cable will flex and the stranded cable allows for it . You crimp a solid cable and the crimp will break down as the cable is flexed.
you run solid cable for distance because of lower resistance then terminate it securely to a jack or patch panel then use a patch cord for the connection subject to flex.
to properly crimp stranded cable you really need a bench mounted hydraulic tool which is why we use pre made patch cords .
patch cords site crimped from scrap solid cable are known in the trade as "scrap crap "
I suggested this way because it is a simpler way to do what he needs. Of course, adding a jack on each end, along with a pair of patch cables, would work. It'd just be more expense with little return.
simpler and cheaper yes , but a poor practice , not standards compliant (Tia 568a/b) and likely to be problematic (so is it really simpler and cheaper if it causes problems down the road and has to be done correctly ? )
FYI I just put in a circuit for an additional PC in an office this week. I crimped a connector on each end, tested the cable, and it works fine.
I buy these connectors by the bag of 100, and do this all day long.
I m the guy who gets called in to troubleshoot the intermittent ,network problems and as I mentioned the first thing I do is terminate correctly (to standards ) .
had one recently where I was called out, problem was "scrap crap "patch cord , I replaced it suggested replacing them all 60+ they said no thanks . after three trips out to replace 3 crimped connections they saw the economy in having them all replaced for one service call
doing it wrong all day long doesn't make it right
There are RJ-45 ends made specifically for stranded cable, but yes, in a perfect world, having a bench mounted hydraulic press is best. A lot cheaper to buy pre-made cables, though. We tend to use solid for jumpers when they won't be moving after installation, e.g., when going from a 110 block to a phone system. Then, they're labeled, loomed and secured. For any other jumpers that could be reconfigured, we buy stranded pre-made.Where do you buy your ends? My company has been having problems with the ones we were getting. Mainly pair 1 issues(figures, doesn't it?). I think the buyer was just being too cheap with them.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Are you saying that factory patch cords are soldered....I don't think so!
Are you saying that factory patch cords are soldered....I don't think so!
where do you see the word soldered in my posts ?
(wheres a rolling eye smile when you need one ? )
Hey Skip:
I thought more about your response today.
While I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning, I do agree with the advice.
He should put a jack on each end, and buy a pair of short jumper cables to connect the devices to the jacks.
It will be much easier for somebody who doesn't do it on a regular basis to crimp on the cable ends. Besides, it'd mean buying a tool that he'll probably never use again. While I like new tools, it's just not needed here.
The jacks do require a "110 punch-down" tool, but you can usually pick up a plastic one for a few dollars. Some electrical supply houses will give them away.
So, Skip, thanks for making me think this through!
he can use tooless jacks , leviton are available at bldg supply stores .
glad it gave you food for thought thats part of what these forums are for
here is a link to a cabling forum I hang out at , we all learn from each other
If your in the "biz" its a good resource
heres one (of many ) threads there on the crimp your own subject,
http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1082060
what is a "jack" and what is a "connecter"?a url would help to understand also is u taking cat 5 type or coax too, is crimp or twist on for coax?TIA
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
jacks and conectors can be used interchangaably
what I would call a jack also came up as a connector
http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/catalog/BuildPage.aspx?BuildPageID=1469
as to coax I would never do a twist on, crimp is the only way , compression fitting is best and its all we use now
There are some good-quality "twist on" coax connectors, but they're expensive and stick out quite a bit, so as not to be good in tight quarters. They use a packing nut and O ring to clamp and seal.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
if you have ever used the compression fitting I dont think you want to try anything else , tool was around 80.00 and the connectors run about .50 but they WORK 100% first time every time and they are EASY to install.
Another option for you is to use the electrical circuits of your own house. The technology is relatively new and the speeds are not as high but they're sure to improve in the future. I read somewhere that some electric companies are already offering BPL (Broadband over Power Lines).
See http://computer.howstuffworks.com/power-network.htm for some details on how this works.
I don't have any personal experience with this technology.
Yeah, the tool the cable guy used is the cat's pajamas. It "draws" the neck of the connector as it compresses it against the jacket. Standard crimpers pale by comparison.But most folks can't justify the price of the tool (and probably extra for multiple die sizes), and the connectors are specialty items too.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
I assume we are talking RJ6 I bought the T&B one like I say it was around 80.00 , but the other day I see home depot has one by ideal for less than 50.00 and I think Ive seen them on ebay for 20 or so so (simple offshore ones but would probably do for occasianl work )
so really they arent that much more than the standrd crimp , the T&B connectors are a special order but I get them in a couple of days have to buy 50 .
the ideal are on the shelf at home depot in packs of 10 (or so it looked)
Wireless modem, every office I worked at in the last two years goes that way.
A lot of homes I go to all run WI-FI.
You're talking about the F connectors, right? Those are called Snap-n-Seal and the die for those will work on most other snap-n-seal connectors, but some, like the Liberty RCA needs a shorter die. If you need to use BNC connectors, you just take the die out. The rotary stripper that works best for me in the larger Ideal and it has 3 blades. I use it for RG-6 quad almost exclusively. The grey one I use for making interconnects is from Radio Shack, although it can be bought elsewhere.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I agree that the phrases "jacks" and "connectors" gets used interchangeably, but I think it is mis-guided. There really should be specific phrases for each piece, just like "plug" and "socket".Anyway, I think of "jacks" as "plugs" and "connectors" as "sockets". The connectors go in the junction box/faceplate, and the jacks go on the patch cords. On the other end you can either have a punchdown block or put jacks. Jacks seem to reduce the speed potential some (the untwisting of the wires) but if you are plugging them into switches anyway, I don't see a reason to use a punchdown block.
No way a jack is a plug!! A plug plugs into a jack. A connector is either a jack or a plug.(At least that's the way it's been for the last 45 years or so.)
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
That's exactly as I understand it.The hole in the wall for the phone has ALWAYS been a phone jack. What goes into it is a plug. You don't interchange the two unless you want confusion.I thought it was the same for ethernet as well.
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
Yeah, it gets a little confused with an "inline jack", or with "sexless" connectors, but in general the fixed connector is a jack and the one on the end of the cable is a plug."Connector" is a general term for any device used to join electrical wiring. "Socket" is generally reserved for light sockets, unless you're getting down to the pin level on a multi-pin connector, in which case the thing a pin mates with is a socket.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Actually, a connector is usually the assembly of a holder and a group of terminals. A terminal is what goes onto an individual wire. Think Molex connector, RJ-45 connector, etc. You're right about the jack being the part that accepts the plug, but IMO, they should change it to receptical. It would be a bit more self-explanatory.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Receptical" is only used in trash and standard AC wiring. Not used at all in electronics, in my experience.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
When the telcos first started going to RJ11 terminations, the term of art (Jargon...you gotta love it, it keeps the bozos out...) was Keystone connectors
I got a catlog yesterday and noticed they are using keystone connectors there. But what of the connector in the switch (if I was crazy enough to try and build my own switch)? Would it still be called a keystone connector? I figured keystone because it snapped into the face plate.I think these things should all have unique descriptive names. But then I also think every connector should only connect one way (remember the ability to fry motherboards by connecting the power plug flipped?) and should have a method of locking in place.
Yeah, "keystone" refers to the way the individual connector snaps into the mounting block. You can get "keystone" phone jacks and "keystone" coax jacks. "RJ45" is the designation for the mechanical plug/jack interface. All home Ethernet (10-base-T) systems use RJ45 connectors. (Actually, I believe the plug side is officially -- per the Fone Co -- something like RS45, but you'll get funny looks from folks if you use that designation.)(The other types of Ethernet are 10-base-2 and 10-base-5. These are coax, though sometimes there's an interface box with, IIRC, a 9-pin DIN connector between it and the actual Ethernet card.)The catalogs, especially, play pretty loose with the descriptions and nomenclature. Often you have no real assurance whether the color code of a connector is "A" or "B", eg.Making connectors so they can only go one way is a good idea in theory, but rarely done in practice when push comes to shove. For instance, the standard internal disk drive cables can have (per the "standards") alignment pins installed on both ends to prevent improper installation, but no one does it, and if someone did a lot of cables wouldn't fit. Mostly this is a cost/laziness issue.With regard to RJ45 connectors for Ethernet, though, there's not a lot you can do wrong. Even if a connector is miswired or a switch is wired to another switch without a "crossover", no damage will occur (at least not in devices that conform to the electrical standards). The biggest danger is plugging an Ethernet cable into a 2-line phone jack -- that could cause some damage.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Most jacks now don't require a punch down tool. You place the wire in a plastic spreader and then push that onto the jack.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
They're OK, in theory. The Leviton Cat 5 and USOC back covers tend to break when they're pressed down unless the specialty tool is used. Pass & Seymour are easier to punch down, but if the insert is pulled away from the cable along its length, the caps pull off and the wires come out. Using a punchdown tool works for me and it takes about the same amount of time as pushing the cap on and trimming the wires and the tool cuts the ends in the same operation.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 11/7/2005 9:33 pm by highfigh
I run across a lot of the leviton jacks that look like they have been done by hand (tails sticking out not trimmed are a dead giveway) Ive tried doing a few and they work just fine by hand press the caps with the thumb , not vice grips
I Imagine they would break if you got aggressive with them , as will most anything .
punchdown tool is certainly preferable but for somebody terminating a dozen or so when time is no issue pressing by hand (then trimming the tails ) is perfectly aceptable . and beats the investment in a speclity tool .
(actually I really LIKE my harris jackrapid , load the jack and one squeeze your done ,only down side as the dies only work with leviton )
Thanks, Dan, for pointing that out to readers who might not know.
I always punch them down, since I've experienced some problems with those "no-punch" types. Of course, I have to get mileage out of my expensive spring-loaded tool... :)
As I mentioned, most electircal supply houses have plastic tools they'll just give you, or you can get one for less than $2.00.
Cheap, and quick!
The thing to do is to use a pair of pliers to seat the spreader. Regular pliers will work, but a small pair of ChannelLoks works better, set in the second notch. You think you have them seated with finger pressure, but they always give you another 1/8" or so with the pliers.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Melissa, the jacks I bought came with a punch-down tool, and the wiring convention on their sides. Now, I'm quite glad to be done pulling wire. While I had the forethought to install conduit, accessing it requires 20 ft. of crawling through a side attic. I'd forgotten all about the arthritis in my spine until I woke up this morning and tried to move ;= )Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
The real killer on that arthritis is when you sort of "stand up" on your hands and knees and bump your back into the shingle nails. PITA, and other places.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
DIY accupunture!!! What a great idea!Or is it just pre-drilling for the arthoscopic surgery?
Thank you, both for the good words and the good advice.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
there is no need for a "router", which is designed to "split" the internet signal for use at more than one computer."
Melissa,
I disagree as most routers also act as a hardware firewall adding to security.
Jon
You are correct. Most routers do also have firewalls.
I was actually just responding to the actual scenario, rather than adding more detailed suggestions.
One reason I'm not terribly comfortable suggesting router/firewalls is that they typically need some configuration before being really secure. The danger is that a consumer just buy one, plug it in, and assume they are protected.
For consumer situations, I prefer software firewalls, which typically do come resonably secure after installation.
In any case, thanks for the clarification!
I go along with the wireless , home depot has a Belkin G wireless router for 39.00 or you may consider something a bit higher end like this linksys
http://www.linksys.com
still less than 200
still a lot simpler than wired with equall perfromance
Do not run low-voltage cable and power cable in the same conduit. In addition to being against code, this will increase interference.
Wired or wireless is OK. For wired you can either extend the coax (RG6 is fine) and install the cable modem at the far end or leave the cable modem where it is and run cat 5 or cat 6 (or cat 6E if you really want to) between moden and your new office.
Wired is a hair more reliable and easy to use than wireless, though wireless is much better than it used to be.
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
The professional network nerds that I've known almost without exception have wireless setups in their personal homes. Partly this is because it's neat, partly because they wouldn't feel comfortable running wires in a residential setting, and partly because, in their words, wireless is simply makes the most sense.
Using a wireless residential router setup is convenient to not be restricted to a particular location with a laptop, and a shared printer can be located anywhere. Very easy to use once set up. The cord clutter is also reduced.
Having said that, I would be looking to the next generation of wireless and wired connectivity since what we have now will certainly be worth changing in the next 10 years. Will wireless keep up with higher transfer speeds? Based on what I've heard, I'd say yes and the price will continue to fall.
It is interesting that many new luxery homes are wired at much more than the cost of a complete wireless setup.
This topic would be an interesting article since it's relevent, builders have widely varying levels of understanding of the subject, there's a lot of information of questionable reliability, and we are all impacted by the changes in technology.
Cheers,
Don
You've got tons of advice so far (some of it contradictory) but I'll throw in my two cents worth. I do work in the computer industry after all, and I completely wired my house AND I have wireless too.
1. Do not run any computer cabling parallel to high voltage line without at least 12" of separation, or some form of shielding. I try to stay a stud bay away.
2. You could either run RG6 up to the attic, and connect your cable modem there or leave your modem wherever it is and run an Ethernet cable up to the attic. Ethernet runs can be longer than RG6 runs without a signal booster, but if the run is 100' or less, I would move the cable modem to the attic (I did, and I had the cable company reposition the line to come into the attic - keeps the line from looking tacky on the side of the house and keeps crooks from cutting it). In general, DO NOT put a signal booster between the pole and the cable modem. There is likely to be a compatibility issue (even when the manufacturer, like Pass & Seymor, says otherwise). Be sure to use the best quality crimp on RG6 connector you can find. Connectors are just about EVERYTHING when it comes to the transmission of digital signals.
3. Attach a firewall router to the cable modem. Then attach an Ethernet SWITCH to the router.
4. I used Cat 6 and I'm glad I did. The cable isn't much more expensive (you should be able to get 1000' box for around $100) but the %@$%&^ connectors are more. About $5 each when I bought them. The 'B' standard for the wiring pairs seems to be more common. Follow the manufacturers instructions, but generally it is about 1/2" of exposed wires with the jacket going into the plug. The twisted part of twisted pair is what keeps the interference out, so un-twist as little as possible.
5. If you want a thorough test, you will need to find something like a Fluke tester that will test the actual speed, not just continuity. They are about $6,000 so maybe you want to have someone come in and test it.
6. After you do this, you can still plug a wireless access point in if you want to surf in the yard. I use mine now to give my tenant in the carriage house internet access. Wireless is cool, but whenever I have a choice, I plug in.
Should I just go wireless? I'm not worried about privacy - my nearest neighbor is about 400 ft. away."
Andy,
To all those naysayers who say not to go wireless. They don't know what they are talking about. PROPERLY set up, wireless is fairly secure. (contact me if you need to know what default settings need to be changed).
If you are worried about somebody hacking into your private documents, buy yourself a USB external hard drive for ~ $125.00 and use it as the default drive for your documents (it will be disconnectable). The bonus is you can use it to back up your hard drive making a fatal HD failure a breeze to fix.
Jon
Re wireless:You will likely have difficulty running wireless if your home has steel framing or foil-faced drywall. (Plaster on metal lath would do it too, but very few folks have that.)Re connectors:The important thing is to use a connector appropriate for the cable. It's not illegit to terminate the solid-conductor cable with plugs, so long as you use the appropriate solid-conductor crimp-on plugs, and not those designed for stranded. (Some plugs claim to be good for both, and I doubt that such a claim is totally bogus.) A better-quality hand crimper is sufficient for terminating -- no need for hydraulics or anything. But I prefer to terminate to jacks and use preassembled jumpers. Solid cable doesn't flex very well, and you run the risk of a broken wire if you connect/disconnect it frequently or move the connected equipment very much. Plus with jacks you don't need to buy a crimper.Re router/firewall:Many cable modems now come with a built-in firewall and router. Before investing in new equipment check what yours has. If the modem has a built-in firewall/router then you don't need any more equipment if you go wired.With wireless, it's probably hard to find a wireless access point any more that DOESN'T include firewall/router. Setup can get a little confusing with two firewalls.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
You will likely have difficulty running wireless if your home has steel framing or foil-faced drywall. "
Dan,
I understand your concerns. Cell phone reception $ucks inside our house at times, as I've installed double foil faced foam insulation behind the drywall as well as behind the siding (4 layers total of foil).
However,I have never had a problem accessing our wireless network from as far as 1/4 mile away, or anywhere in the house. Maybe it's the wireless card and router combo.
"Setup can get a little confusing with two firewalls."
No doubt, but my wife has successfully set up three (four if you in clude the MS stuff)firewalls on our network.
Jon
Edited 11/7/2005 1:09 pm ET by WorkshopJon
1. It is a code violation to put low-voltage stuff in the same conduit as regular line-voltage stuff. But the longer distance of the low-voltage conduit shouldn't be a problem.
2. Use the Cat-6 wire. Although nowadays wireless networks are quite nice, there is nothing to compare with a good hard-wired connection. With Cat-6 wire you will normally run at 100 MHz, and Gigahertz operation is theoretically possible. Some day when you want to pour video and sound through the network, you will be glad you have the wiring in place.
Unless GHz is really needed, Cat 5e will work fine. Also, it's possible to send HD video through Cat 5e NOW. Audio Control makes a line driver that works very nicely and we install quite a few of them, usually to 46" and larger plasma displays.I haven't seen any mention of the diameter of the conduit, but if it's 1" or larger, I would pull some cables for whatever additional uses may be wanted in the future. If a system will be in one part of the house and that will be the only source for a TV in the attic, a remote control that transmits RF will be needed so the connections will be more simple and centralized.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The conduit is 2 in. Hey, it's cheap. Why not go big?
The wires are pulled, and I'm enjoying a Sam Adams Octoberfest.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
To tell the honest truth, cat gut will just about do the job. For a short run in a residential environment you could get away with using old phone cable if you really wanted to (and probably still be good for 350, if not 1GHz). But might as well spend a little money on decent cable and connectors, if you're going to put your time into it. No need to obsess about it, though.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
This has been an experience!
Here I was, thinking I'd be able to help someone here, instead of being helped.
Maybe I ought to just stick to asking my dumb questions!
Seriously, I never saw so much passion about tech stuff in a non-tech forum.
You all are great!
But..."nerd", "propeller-head", geek...hmmm
:)
But..."nerd", "propeller-head", geek...hmmm
Well, we've had a thread or two (even accidentally a time or two) on your topic <g> There's "hack" "wood butcher" "sparky" (in some places only); "archy" "designer"; hmm, "contractor" "diy" "HO" "HO as GC" "GC" . . .
Then there's the really rude words, like "banker" or "lawyer" <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Andy,
My 2 cents - you are in great shape already having conduit and I'd use it if you can avoid code issues which I can't speak to. But some other points...
We have a wireless router and card that came packaged together with some enhanced security features from Netgear. You can often find these with a bunch of rebates at CompUSA or the like. Ours had a sticker price of $100 and we got it for $20 after rebates. I like the setup but mostly because we use the computer in an inconveniently wired spot.
Properly configured wireless is very secure so don't worry too much about that. Wireless or wired can both be hacked if given enough time and determination. Researchers can now actually listen to the keys you type from afar so there's no total security. Here is the rare advantage to aluminum siding - no one's gonna be able to eavesdrop on wireless.
The router in the basement could be a pain at times. To configure our router properly (and securely) we need to plug a computer into it for a few minutes for some changes. If you don't mind going into the basement with a laptop for a bit of configuration - maybe that's not a problem.
The new 802.11 (a/b/g) wireless standards are fast but are in a poorly chosen frequency band which does not do a great job of propagating through solid objects. If your house has any metal framing, metal lath walls, or a whole mess of copper pipes above where your basement modem would be - I'd even more strongly recommend using a wired connection.
Most routers can be configured via a web page interface, over standard network cable, even though they have an alternative interface to use a USB port. Especially after initial setup, most configuration is just as easily done via the web interface.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Right, but do you want to be turing on wireless security and/or
(re)configuring it while wireless? After you've got it all setup and secured, I don't have a problem going wireless, but I wouldn't set it up wirelessly.Just depends on your comfort level.
Yeah, you generally want to set it up wired, but it doesn't have to be via the USB.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Here is the rare advantage to aluminum siding - no one's gonna be able to eavesdrop on wireless."
Bob,
Sorry, but you can.
WSJ
Well, you can if you really try and have a good antenna, and a bunch of windows. But the frequency band that 802.11 is in travels very poorly through solid objects and quite poorly thru metal. Of course, it depends on the house and there are no absolutes, but as a general rule, its very tough to get the signal out of a house with aluminum siding.I worked for a wireless company that went bankrupt making this mistake (among others).As an aside, I've got a buddy with a 5GHz cordless phone. He wanted to use it in his addition but was having trouble. He eventually realized the addition was put on without removing the aluminum siding - just frames and rocked over the siding (pretty bad idea if you ask me).The higher the frequency the more poorly it will travel through solid objects. Aluminum makes it very hard, but the windows or a bad siding job will help with propagation. Are you getting your signal out of an Al sided house? That'd be pretty interesting.-BOBS
"The router in the basement could be a pain at times. To configure our router properly (and securely) we need to plug a computer into it for a few minutes for some changes. If you don't mind going into the basement with a laptop for a bit of configuration - maybe that's not a problem."Just curious....it's configured via the wireless connection to the router...were you worried about security only, or do you have dip switches on your Router (LOL)
Hi Andy,
Won't JLC split the cost with Taunton for your new laptop? ;-)
You could pull the CAT-5e for your connection in the time it takes to read all these posts. That's what I would do. Then experiment with wireless.
Some wireless systems work right out of the box but others require a lot of TLC. The last thing you want to be doing when you have a deadline is troubleshooting your wireless system. Are the problems caused by the wireless access point and router, or is it the wireless card in your laptop, or the microwave oven or the cordless phone, etc... With the wire you can see what you've got pretty quickly. It is probably best to keep the cable modem where it is and pull the CAT5 but there is some benefit to being able to look at the lights on your cable modem and see if the cable system has problems, so there is some benefit to the alternative of pulling RG6 to the attic and keeping your modem up there, if you sometimes have problems on your cable system that would make viewing the status lights helpful. Then add wireless later.
Billy
Well you sure have a lot of opinions already. If you get to read through them all, you might find mine too. So here goes.
First, you are in better shape than most where somebody had the smarts to put in conduits ahead of time. Whatever low voltage wires you run into your office should be run separately from your high-voltage wires for all the reasons already mentioned. I would pull a pair of Cat5e (or Cat6) cables, and a pair of RG6 quad shield through the conduit. Cables can get burned or broken when other wires are pulled alongside them, and you might as well pull all the wires you might need at one time, and have all the wires you need for future use (TV, security cam, broken wire, etc.). Wire is cheap.
Wired and wireless systems both have their pros and cons (and obviously their proponents and detractors). Fact is they both have strengths and weaknesses.
Wired is faster and slightly more secure. Although for the average home user, and particulary given your location, neither is a huge issue. Wireless is faster than most people's WAN connection, so unless you are moving big files through your LAN, speed isn't a huge deal as of 2005. (Although this may change in the future.) At any rate, wireless will never be faster than the wires they are connected to. And the security issue shouldn't really bother you. Yes, the "out of the box" setting for most wireless routers are a big open door to your network. However, a few simple changes will keep out all but the most die-hard intruders. And quite frankly, they are not interested in your average home computer network anyway (it would be easier to simply break into your house).
The big downside of wireless is interference and long distance reception which might be an issue if you are trying to reach your attic from your basement. The big advantage to wireless is mobility. If you have a laptop and want to be able to work/surf/watch from your porch, kitchen or wherever, put in a wireless access point that is most central to the locations where you want use your computer.
The big down side to wired is the running of the cables. But you have that solution already in hand. I would read up on the basic industry practices of separation of high and low voltage cable, crossing high-voltage (when necessary) at right angles, do not pull with tension, don't turn sharp corners, etc. I believe Leviton has these guidelines on their web site somewhere.
But here is the magic bullet. You can have both! If it were my house, I would (and do) use a wired network for all stationary equipment. This includes desktop computers, network printers, webcams, etc. Wire is cheaper and faster than wireless cards. Then put a wireless access point in for wherever you intend to use your portable devices. If you are really worried about security, you can configure your router to only give your wireless access point limited privileges (like seeing the internet, but not the other computers on the network.
One more point on the location of the router/modem. Although most installers and systems integrators put these items in a central location with the cable and phone distribution, I like having them in a visible location where I most often work. This way I can monitor the status of the network lights to see if there are WAN problems, or LAN traffic. If my internet provider is having problems, I can find that out with a quick glance at my modem rather than heading down to my basement (where there isn't even a computer) Plus, it is cool to see all the blinking lights.
BTW, I used to manage a team of installers putting in high-end infrastructure in new residential construction. Plus, I've pulled my share of high-tech wire through my own old-tech house that has 1820, 1870, 1900, and 2005 construction methods to find my way through (two houses, bolted together, timber frame, balloon frame, converted chicken coop...nothing is 16-inches on center).
Do it once, and good luck.
Thanks for all the advice! I looked at wired and wireless routers today, chatted with some geeks, and I've decided to go with cat 5e. I didn't mention that I'd be networking the kids' rooms, too, and I'm concerned that four of us on at once would slow down the wireless.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
actually you can do both , most wireless routers have 4 port switches built in so you can have 4 wired connections in addition to the wireless. you can also daisy chain a larger switch to it if you need more
with the pricing as it is I would suggest using a wireless router and disabling the wireless if you don't want to use it right off
the belkin wireless router I mentioned in my earlier post that I picked up at home depot for 39.99 has some parental control features built in that you might want to take a look at . most any router will allow you to block internet access either by port or MAC address , a useful feature if you want to ground kids internet usage.
I assume you will be terminating to jacks and using factory patch cords :-)
Andy,After reading this entire thread...Is it too late for a couple tin cans and some string ???
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
I've read it too and I'm thinking yours is the only viable idea!
Definitely the only one I could understand.
Doug
Hi Skip:
Sorry that you're busy fixing other people's mistakes. Though, it's steady work :)
You are, of course, correct about the solid vs. stranded concept for the patch cords.
I do know which is which, and use the correct connectors for the type of wire I'm using. There are connectors specifically made for solid wire, with the "teeth" at a different orientation than the ones in a connector made for stranded wire.
You are again correct to say that solid-wire cords are less flexable than stranded. There was no indication, however, that Andy's situation would require frequent moving of the cable, which is why I wasn't concerned.
I must say, though, that neither you nor anyone else has to come back to clean up my work. I do installs at 24/7 installations for companies that cannot tolerate downtime.
My stuff works!
And now they're talking about jacks.I wonder... Hydraulic ? Screw ? Pole ? Floor ?
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
Now I know why Bobcat Goldthwaith talks the way he does!
Don't keep it a secret, man !
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
Studs? Nicholsons?Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Handeys ?
"And, in my humble view, neither Democratic nor Republican party politics has anything to do with lib or con anymore. It's now just pandering to the visceral hatred that's been bred amongst those who refuse to waste their time and energy performing one of the singular most difficult tasks known to man: thinking." -SHG
And now they're talking about jacks.
I wonder... Hydraulic ? Screw ? Pole ? Floor
Daniels <G>
Not followed by "jumping."Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Daniels huh? I knew I liked you.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Daniels huh? I knew I liked you.
Easy, let's not get carried away here. No Gentleman's without a hat in trade <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm afraid those hats are scarce as hen's teeth these days. However, if you ever find yourself in CT, look me up and we can share a dram of something slighter better than Brother Jack on my front porch.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
look me up and we can share a dram of something slighter better than Brother Jack on my front porch.
The reverse is true, too, come to cases. Whether front or back porch would be down to the time of year (or at all, some of our climatic norms can be tough on folk from out that way). Half the sideboard has a little of everything but gin. The other half being naught but malts (to which I shall retire anon <g>--how'd it get to be 1735 already?).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm a fan of the inland malts myself, particularly those aged in sherry casks...Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
particularly those aged in sherry casks
So, the 18yo MacAllan would be just the thing to ease computer aches-n-pains . . .
(Tho- the Livet's French Oak is right tasty).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Apparently, replying to you is a jinx. As soon as I did, I had to go home and sort out a problem on my network. Something happened regarding the patch cord between the cable modem and the router. I think my wife hit it with the vacuum.Don't skimp on the wires. Put AT LEAST two at every box. I put four at most, and you would be surprised at how fast they got used up. There are all sorts of things that will plug into ethernet now, like speakers, baby monitors, security systems.Anyway, one of the things I have is the Linksys 3-port print server. It's a great addition. Up to three printers on the box, and you don't have to connect them to a computer! You do have to install the software on any machine that prints to them, but that isn't a problem.Even if you use 5e (and I still recommend 6) get a gigabite switch. The kids will want to play games over the LAN, and the speed is noticable.
well if you do run out of wires a 4 port (or larger ) switch can be put in place and then you can run is much as you like . we do it all the time I always carry at least one 4 or 5 port switch for times when they need to add a workstation and we don't have time to pull new cable today or pulling a new cable isnt practical.
in fact there is a 4 port switch that fits into a single gang box and is powered over ethernt , Ive havent used one yet but looks like a good item to carry on the truck cant recall right off who makes it .
Yikesn
..."fact there is a 4 port switch that fits into a single gang box and is powered over ethernt , Ive havent used one yet but looks like a good item to carry on the truck cant recall right off who makes it ."Way cool....post it for us if you can find the info.....thanks
somebody mentioned it a while back at a confrence and just the other night I saw it in a catolog , it was one of those call for price items though.
when I get in Ill look it up and post the manufacturer and maybe a link
Thanks..
now a little sidebar/thread hijack
I have DSL, through a Westell modem, which has 4 ethernet ports + wi-fi....
seems to me, it is defacto a router, & as such I should be able to set up a LAN without adding a router
I realize I could just spend a few dollars and buy a Linksys wireless/wired router & put it in downstream of my DSL modem, but the cheapskate Yankee in me would rather not...
your comments greatfully appreciated!
what you have is a modem/router with wifi , you would gain nothing but trying to set up a second router downstream it would be redundant
if you need more than four wired ports you just uplink to a switch .
It sounds like you have a MODEM/Router/Switch in that Westell.
Can you post the model number? I might be able to give you some more info.
Definitely no advantage to having more than one router in addition to this one. In fact, it would most likely cause you more trouble setting it up.
I just cleaned up a situation like that, where the customer added a second router "to be safer." It also had some other features that ended up intermittently crashing the network. The "fix" was to disable most of the router features in the new router!
It's a Westell versalink
I snooped around on a broadband forum last night, found a loooong thread re a two router setup, mostly how to turn a DSL modem/router/wi-fi access point back into just a modem, because the wi-fi signal strength & network setup on for example a Linksys wi-fi/router are so much better than on the Westell product
Ironic, since it's exactly the opposite of what I want to do
Looks like I need to learn about VLANs, DHCP, & so on....sigh
If i get stuck, can I e-mail you?BTW, there are network configurations where a two router setup has it's advantages...for example an FTP server placed between the two, so the internet can "see" it, but not the rest of your network...
"If i get stuck, can I e-mail you?"no, u have to post it here so we can all learn.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
no, u have to post it here so we can all learn.no way, man...you need to go through the initiation & learn the secret handshake to get in the geek squad! (requires wearing your subnet mask...you DO have one of those, right?)
Hi!
I snooped around on a broadband forum last night, found a loooong thread re a two router setup, mostly how to turn a DSL modem/router/wi-fi access point back into just a modem...
That's what I was talking about. If you have a "second" router, you'd just disable the one in the Westell, and use the external router. I'd have to have a good reason for doing this, though, since I hate wasting hardware (i.e. money!).
Looks like I need to learn about VLANs, DHCP, & so on....
Well, that's the "fun" of it! If you don't want to have fun, though, you hire somebody to do it for you!
If i get stuck, can I e-mail you?
You could, though it's probably best to post to a forum. I'd suggest starting another thread, and seeing if we got kicked out to some other venue!
I post in a number of tech forums, but I always prefer not using direct email. If I'm too busy to answer, I don't want to feel pressured. :) Plus, there's always somebody smarter than me who will answer!
BTW, there are network configurations where a two router setup has it's advantages...for example an FTP server placed between the two, so the internet can "see" it, but not the rest of your network...
Sure, that's one reason you might use two routers. Although that's really a job best done by a firewall. Sometimes you can also set up a single router to open a port (FTP) for a specific computer, so you'd not need two routers to do that.
Of course, you'd most likely want to be able to see the FTP server from the internal network, but still hide the other workstations from being seen from the WAN (Internet). That's something else best done with a firewall.
I've set up a number of web servers and FTP servers, but never did it by using two routers. I always used a dedicated firewall (Sonicwall is my choice for good, economical devices).
I'm guessing, though, that anyone setting up an FTP server would be savvy enough to know all this, and be able to do it...
"That's what I was talking about. If you have a "second" router, you'd just disable the one in the Westell, and use the external router. I'd have to have a good reason for doing this, though, since I hate wasting hardware (i.e. money!)."That's un-American!one more question, & then I'll slink outta here....is there any way to run both (but not at the same time) DSL and Ethernet over one Cat5 with RJ45 terminations?thanks
Certainly you can use RJ45 for regular phone lines, if that's what you mean. Just don't get them crossed since the regular fone co voltage is pretty high (especially ringing) and will likely damage an unsuspecting ethernet adapter/switch.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Thanks Dan....would you have a good "cheat sheet" that shows all the RJ11 &RJ45 color conventions....
I 'm working a space that has 2 Amphenol "biscuit" shells, 25pair-one has a 6 line RJ45 adapter, with 6 contacts in the RJ ports, the other one has the same adapter with 8 lines, with all 8 contacts in the RJ ports
also have some of the old style "modular" RJ45 wall plates, the kind that take a standard duplex 110V cover plate...these have in-line 8 position punch downs on the back, of which only 2 of the punch downs are filledthe goal is to end up with modern modular wall plates, Leviton or equivilant, most likely quad plates with six ports...some will be phone, some network
However, the network port needs to be universal for the customer side DSL service, and the in-house ethernet Lan, both fed by a single new Cat5, that we switch between the DSL & the ethernet at a patch panel in the phone/computer closet...
Whew! so hence my question, & my desire for a comprehensive telco/data color & position cheat sheet.
I used to have a nice cheat sheet torn from the back of a catalog, but I lost is a few years back, and haven't found anything decent since. Unfortunately, a lot of the online references are confusing/wrong -- you have to be a little careful.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Why can't you run separate cables for DSL and Ethernet? Switching back and forth is asking for an expensive misstep.(I assume you know that none of the old RJ45 stuff is trustworthy for Ethernet.)
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
is there any way to run both (but not at the same time) DSL and Ethernet over one Cat5 with RJ45 terminations?
Do you mean "Ethernet" as in "connecting multiple computers into a network?" If so, then...
Do you mean DSL (i.e. Internet) and LAN connections over the same cable?
If so, then the answer is definitely yes! You can have multiple services running on the same network, and over one cable.
There is no need to have one cable for DSL, and one cable for networking.
The connections (connectors and jacks) do conform to the physical specs for RJ45, but they need to be certified for CAT5 or better.
If I've not understood the question, please re-post.
The connections (connectors and jacks) do conform to the physical specs for RJ45, but they need to be certified for CAT5 or betterg
only if you want 100 base T (100mbps ), 10 base T (10mbps) runs just fine on Cat3
10 mbits satsifys internet sharing just fine when you have less then a 5mbps interent connetion (which covers most connections ) (just ran a speed test my broadband is at 2.2 so anything over that does no good at all for internet only usage )
for comparsion wireless g gives a 11 mbps connection
I thought wireless g was 54 mbps?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
you are right , I relaized that this morning when I saw the install disc sitting here . and it sasy 54MBPS right on it :-)
I only connect at 11 becouse of my built in wirless card which is a b.
but its still taking me to 4mbps (on a GOOD day broadband connection )
20 is the car capable of 11mph or 54 mph when trafic is crawling at no more than 4mph ever ?
Edited 11/12/2005 8:27 am ET by skip555
10 base T (10mbps) runs just fine on Cat3
True. But the labor and lost materials cost of re-doing the wiring when somebody realizes the need or desire to use the cable for networking is certainly not worth using CAT3.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, using CAT3 for ethernet shortens the maximum allowable cable distance.
In any case, considering the small cost difference between CAT3 and CAT5, I would not recommend using CAT3. I have to admit, I've never used it, nor have I seen it on existing networks that I have encountered.
Still, instead of stating "...but they need to be certified for CAT5 or better", it may be more accurately stated as "...but it is highly recommended that they be certified for CAT5 or better"
I wouldn't hesitate to run 100MHz Ethernet on reasonably short (home-scale) Cat 3 cables. But of course, if you're installing new cable there's no sense not installing reasonably good stuff, given that the labor cost (or "deferred cost" if you're a DIYer) far swamps the cost of the cable. For the same reason you might as well install two cables where you only need one.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
True. All of my work is in business settings, and I always have 2 installed where 1 is needed, and 4 installed where 2 are needed. And always with CAT5.
I'd never use old cable that's already there, unless it's CAT5, and unless I know what it's history is. Even at home, I have CAT5 everywhere, and double the required number.
At home, I have all computers networked, with each my printers connected to the network via a dedicated print server device. They all, of course, have Internet access via the same network cable.
It's what I do at work, and what I recommend whenever anybody asks.
is there any way to run both (but not at the same time) DSL and Ethernet over one Cat5 with RJ45 terminations?"Do you mean "Ethernet" as in "connecting multiple computers into a network?" If so, then..."
yes...."Do you mean DSL (i.e. Internet) and LAN connections over the same cable?"
yes"If so, then the answer is definitely yes! You can have multiple services running on the same network, and over one cable."does that mean that, just like you have POTS and DSL running concurrently over the same line, with the same RJ 11 terminations, you can have 10/100 Ethernet and DSL running concurrently ovet the same line, with the same RJ45 terminations?There is no need to have one cable for DSL, and one cable for networking."The connections (connectors and jacks) do conform to the physical specs for RJ45, but they need to be certified for CAT5 or better."Here's the setup....I have one cat5 cable running from a telephone/computer closet to a meeting room
there is a patch panel in the closet that will have jacks for the in-house Lan, and for the "outside" vendors' DSL service...
depending on who is using the room (i.e. in-house staff meeting, using in-house LAN, or customer using DSL service) either the inhouse LAN or the DSL will be patched through to the room...and the question is do, I need one RJ45 jack for both, or one wired for DSL and one wired for Ethernet?
and the question is do, I need one RJ45 jack for both, or one wired for DSL and one wired for Ethernet?
Well, the 'normal' answer is "no." You make the dsl connection as a "client" part of the network. Then, any legitimate network user has access to the dsl "gateway" (typically a "held" IP address, whether fixed or dynamic).
Now, you can have a dsl-only connection to the meeting room, for those needing/wanting only a connection back to the internet. That might want some management, though. It could be an excelent way to isolate visitors with less-regulated access to the internet from the internal LAN. Now, you could just provide POTS so vendors/visitors could just dial up--they won't be happy, but they will be connected.
There's a bunch of ways to get "there" from "here."Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
> does that mean that, just like you have POTS and DSL running
> concurrently over the same line, with the same RJ 11 terminations, you
> can have 10/100 Ethernet and DSL running concurrently ovet the same
> line, with the same RJ45 terminations?You gotta understand here: A DSL modem has two connections. One side is a connection to POTS, and the other side is an ethernet connection. The ethernet side of the DSL moden is essentially identical to ethernet from a cable modem or ethernet in a purely internal LAN. In fact, you can have all three on the same physical cables simultaneously (with some moderately geeky configuration mumbo-jumbo).So when you ask "can I run DSL and Ethernet together" you've got to say which side of the DSL modem you're talking about.While you can always use Cat5/6 cable instead of POTS cable to connect a DSL modem (or a phone, for that matter) to POTS, you cannot simultaneously have the POTS signal for a DSL modem (or phone) and regular ethernet on the same physical cable. They're different voltages and transmission schemes and the POTS voltages will burn out the ethernet equipment.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Hey all, I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice on networking. I'm posting this from my newly networked attic office.
AndyAndy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
The drawback to additional switches is that the gain is number of ports - 2, because you have to link the switches together (depending on whether the existing line is already plugged in or not). So an additional 4 port switch only adds two (net) ports. I'm using the 8 port linksys gigabite switches, and I'm reasonably happy with them.The caveat that I have is that I would like to run a few cables out to the carriage house. Sourcing the cable all the way to the distribution box where the switches are will be a bit of a pain, so I might put a switch in the basement to feed it.Where do the switches that fit a single gang box draw the power from? I'm thinking that they have to be linked to a special switch, or you have to do something to add power down the ethernet. I remember reading something about security cameras that worked that way, but I believe they were pretty pricey.
as to cable to the carraige house ,anytime ethernet leaves a building it should go to fiber , really not that bid a deal either use a fiber enabled switch on each end or use media converters . you can get fiber pre conecterized and tested .
The drawback to additional switches is that the gain is number of ports - 2, because you have to link the switches together (depending on whether the existing line is already plugged in or not). So an additional 4 port switch only adds two (net) ports. I'm using the 8 port linksys gigabite switches, and I'm reasonably happy with t
well yea, but if you want to add adtional its a way to go ,you still wind up with two ports
It should be converted to optical- is this to eliminate ground loops?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It should be converted to optical- is this to eliminate ground loops?
no its to protect against voltage surges . (electricity dont travel over glass )
plus you can get longer diatance but thats probaly not a factor
I know voltage doesn't travel over glass, that's why I like it for avoiding loops.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
(electricity dont travel over glass )
And for those times it does, you have other, much larger problems to worry about.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hey Skip:
I did a run of fiber in a direct-burial trench for abot 3500 feet. It ran directly under a series of high-tension wires coming right out of a generating plant a short distance away.
No EMF, EMI, or worries about lightning!
Heck, with those high tension wires up there you really didn't have anything to worry about from lightning.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Personally, I don't think fiber will ever be a major factor within a home. I like the idea that electricity doesn't travel over fiber, but no way do I introduce another material. I didn't use structured wiring with the fiber because I don't think anything inside the house will ever use it.But, my crystal ball is cloudy.
Fiber will probably be used eventually, but not for another 10 years or so. It's being used in commercial/industrial buildings, of course, but there they have more severe requirements and can eat the higher cost. They can also assure proper installation more readily. The restrictions on bending fiber make it pretty unattractive to the average residential installer, and make for complications at the ends.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
it's power over ethernet...like a powered USB device...but that's all I know about it...don't know if it requires all new ethernet cards
Hey Bryan:
Some switches have an "uplink" port, so you connect additional switches through that port, and not use up a standard port. It also has the advantage of not affecting the limit to the number of switches than can be used.
Unfortunately, some switches require that if you use the uplink port, you can't use port #1. In that case, you do lose one port, but you still don't limit the number of switches than can be used.
All the switches I use just allow any port to be an uplink port. The hardware detects whether a cross over is need or not and implements it. I think most of the new ones are this way. No need to make a seperate uplink port.
4 port switch that fits into a single gang box and is powered over ethernt , Ive havent used one yet
They're ok, but you can't "reboot" them by just pulling the power jack out (I need not hear what the service yahoo sasid again, if I could connect by software, I'd not be in the server closet booting swithches <tired, frustrated grin>).
Ok, so "stacking" switches "looks" inelegant, but it is reasonably scaleable for the price. Works, though. Seems (slightly) to be more tolerant of non-homogenous h/w & s/w across the network, too (but that's just an impression after connecting bleeding edge machines to stone-knives-and-bearskins machines . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
i was looking at the dell site.it appears that they don't offer NIC's as an option.has usb replaced nic?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
it appears that they don't offer NIC's as an option.
It's down at the bottom in the boring tiny print as "integrated 10/100 network connection" if I remember it right.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Stacking switches in a corporate environment can get yr fingers slapped by the geeks up the network at the mainframe room...
can get yr fingers slapped by the geeks up the network
Not if you are the geek <g>
But that has nothing to do with home networking Andy's house <g> . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Kinda like gunslingers in the old west, there's always a geek somewhere upstream of you.....somewhere there's a REALLY smart bunch who have a handle on the big picture/whole network....or maybe one mainframe that has become intelligent...LOL
somewhere there's a REALLY smart bunch who have a handle on the big picture/whole network
LoL! I've got 27 of them at my p/t job; yet none will admit to knowing anything at all (which is why I keep them around, write good evals, etc.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
One important point: Don't rely on being in an isolated location to "secure" your wireless. A "war driver" can still find your system, break in, and steal all your Quicken/Money files, tax records, etc.As I said, the best wireless security is to manually enter the 16(I think) character code for each of your wireless devices into the WAP configuration. Then only these devices can attach. Adding a network key on top of that provides further security.
--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Andy:
You've got some good feedback on the pros and cons of wireless v. wired.
A couple more things for you to consider.
If you go wireless, BY ALL MEANS change the "default" password; DISABLE the SSID broadcast and ENABLE the MAC code restriction...then set it to only recognize the MAC code on your particular wireless card(s). These three things will do 90% of your security issues. You should also ENABLE encryption. None of these things requires a propellor-head to do; the setup software with the router is pretty simple.
Whether or not you go wireless or wired, make sure you've got a good anti-virus and firewall installed......
--Ken
Wireless is the way to go. Cheap, easy, secure, reliable, flexible, performant.
I've got wireless in both home and vacation cabin. Each install cost about $40 for the router, took less than an hour to set up and give me internet in ALL ROOMS plus the deck and patio. I take my laptop from one house to the other and it doesn't know the difference.
Added bonuses: wireless print servers ($50) let you put a printer in any room without stringing wire. Wireless webcams ($100 on ebay) let you put monitoring webcams anywhere without stringing wire.
Okay, so I'm a computer guy who dabbles in construction stuff. I have both a wired and wireless network in my house.
I would suggest that you run either Cat5e or Cat6 cable in the conduit that has the low voltage cable in it. You might have interference problems if you ran with 120V cable in the same conduit, and I'm pretty sure it's a code violation. You will have no problem with length - you can go up to 100 meters with 10baseT networking.
You can do plugs yourself, but I'd recommend wiring to a wall plate, as it makes things easier. I use the leviton stuff.
Wireless can work well, but it's not really geared to desktops. Great for laptops, however.
Hard wired is the best option for your run. Do not run any data/voice parallel to line voltage (A perpendicular intersection is admissable). Use the second conduit and run your RG6 to the attic and place your Router and modem up in the attic. If you are using DSL (Telephone high speed) run cat 5e. This will allow you to fish down thru closets / walls in order to set up drops for your network (Such as shared printers/fax machines).
Have a high speed cable wireless network in my home for use in home office as well as general use. Would recommend it above anything else. Will take a total of thirty minutes or less to do a setup. Have used it for five years and upgraded as speed increase devices became available. Did another wireless network at our beach house and it is telephone high speed wireless. All operate efficiently.
JohnEW