I usually go to Lowes for my kitchens. This week I had a client go to Depot for cabinets.
Evidently, they want to Prove their own designs. I had to fight with them for a layout to prove measurements on my own. They wanted to send their own guy out adding an extra week to the job.
I had to sign a release to get a layout so I could double check my own measurments. Hmmm.
I never order a kitchen until I double check measurements. Guess thats why I like Lowes.
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Most places will print out the layout and dims so you can sign the release to order them
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True, it took me a half hour to get it though. I had to sign for liability (which is why I double measure to begin with).
Until recently we used Lowe's also. I thought it was funny but our local store would not print kitchen pictures in color. I asked why and they said it was a corporate mandate that they not because someone complained and then sued because their kitchen and the pictures had slightly different shades of color. So, black and white only, no color. DanT
Smart people! They're probably just covering their backsides. I've seen kitchens installed and they didn't leave enough room in a corner for drawers to open and miss the oven's doors. They always blame someone else.
The other day I went into my supplier's and on the floor, saw a beautiful granite vanity top w/ two under mounted bowls and back splash in a crate. I asked what the story was with it. They had special ordered it for a "GC". She gave them the measurements and a template, signed the order form, they made sure they had it covered. Only they didn't get a deposit from her. When it came in a few weeks later, something had changed in the design of the bathroom and now the vanity to short. She refused to take delivery and complained all the way up to the corporate level until she got her way. The vanity top now sits on the floor, for sale, at a marked down price.
I hope she gets what's coming to her some day.
Thats true, but thats what I do. I take responsibility. thats why I measure. Were moving walls on this project and how is some third party yoyo gonna know whats going on?
A helped a guy remodel a kitchen and install cabinets (about a $40,000 job). We got the cabinets done and ready to put in the refrigerator panel and cabinet above fridge in and it's one inch too long--the run of cabinets on that side would protrude 1" into the dining room, where it runs into a built in window seat. The guy looks at his plan (can't remember if it was from Lowes or not) and he's all puzzled as to how this happened. I look and see a 1" written in red at the end of the run of cabinets and point that out--he didn't know that a number in red meant it was a negative number. So we got to trim the window seat a bit.
I understand your frustration having been one of those HD kitchen designers in a previous life I know that most of the people that come in to HD are not contractors or even reliable enough to allow them to give you design measurements. And like the previous poster explained when the cabinets come in they blame you and refuse to pay.
But as I posted in another tread I have a whole list of things i dislike about all big box stores here is a repost it probably belongs under this topic heading anyway
I prefer local lumber yards and their service. I find the whole box store concept flawed. Why load lumber in a cart then your truck then unload it on site when I can pickup my cell phone call the local lumber yard and have lumber on site without having to touch it at all until I need to use it.
And If you have ever needed something at the box store that is up in those racks you know the hassle that is. They can't drive that fork lift with all those customers walking through the warehouse. It takes 3 guys to do what it would take one guy and a fork lift to do just so no one gets a stack of lumber dropped on them.
And don't get me started on plumbing fixtures with all those customers pawing over the boxes you can never be sure you will get all the parts.
What was wrong with the plumbing supply with the showroom to see the fixtures and the stock in the back where only the workers could touch it. And for replacement parts the guy behind the counter can find the part you need in about a min at the supply store but at the box store even if they have it you will waste 20 min looking for it since every time they do a reset they change the location of the parts.
Another one suppose you want to pick up a cast iron tub or a load of windows now at the local supplier you would get it delivered or you would go to the loading dock to have them load it in your truck right? Not at the box store the loading dock is only for in coming stock all customer loads must go out the front doors good luck finding someone to do it. You need more then one guy he has to get two others for spotters set up safety barriers and if the item was a special order item guess what it was already sitting at the loading dock area the one area of the store they can actually drive fork lifts with out spotters so you would think they would just load your truck from there were the item came in to the store begin with. Not.. it must go out the front where all those customers are walking around.
In fact I am not sure why I shop these stores at all there are so many reasons I hate them.
Edited 4/4/2008 3:27 pm ET by MFournier
Edited 4/4/2008 3:28 pm ET by MFournier
Disgruntled?
Will "Going Home Depot" or "Going Lowes" replace "Going Postal" as the saying in the US?
No not at all I left on my own. I took the job knowing I was not going to stay I just needed some extra money at the time. But at the same time I just think as a culture we are forgoing service for the lowest price to are own detriment.
People who complain about losing their job to outsourcing think nothing of buying cloths made in china and Indonesia.
They shop the big box stores but then feel sorry for the loss of local jobs and the old hardware store on main street that used to have everything you needed to fix your old house and a owner that actually was there at the store and he really could answer your questions. If they did not carry a product they would order it and they would not make you pay for it first but when you picked it up.As a home owner you did not need a truck to get what you bought at the local lumber yard home it was expected they would deliver it. Most of those independent lumber yards still around still do. If you needed a lawn mower it did not come in a box and you had to assemble it it was assembled and delivered to your house. Not for a extra charge but for the price marked. OK maybe the big box store has a lower price but what have we given up. The other day I was leaving a HD and a couple was trying to load a new gas grill in their SUV it would not fit but they kept trying and the wife was getting upset with the husband and he was obviously getting frustrated and in the end they ended up disassembling the thing to get it in and I heard the wife say well what did we pay $50.00 for assembly for. Now don't you think it would have been easier to just by it from a local grill dealer that would bring it to their house and set it up. No frustration no fuss.I am not at the point of advocating we stop shopping at home centers all together but I do feel for a lot of things they sell their store model does not fit.
Lumber yards have been run for years and there was no reason to have customers load lumber on a cart and push it up to a register like it is groceries the whole idea is ludicrous. Even if you need only a small amount of lumber and have the truck to carry it it is much better for it to go from the pile to your vehicle but better yet you pay and it gets dropped in your driveway for you. (just like we contractors do when we have a project) And drywall I laugh every time I see home owners loading drywall on a mini-van.
Sometimes I can't resist and I ask them did you know that Lucci Lumber (my local lumber yard but I am sure there is a supplier near anyone who delivers) will deliver to your job site and not just to your house but right to the room you need the drywall. you never have to lift it until you hang it.
If you need it on the second floor bedroom they will lift it in through the window and you won't have to carry sheets through your house and up the stairs.Then they ask Sure but for how much? and I reply no extra charge and in fact if you buy more then 20 sheets their price is lower then HD and the roof of your mini-van won't be dented. They often think I am working for the lumber yard and I say no I am just a customer like you.People are blinded and brain washed into thinking HD saves them money but they just need to pick up a phone book look in the yellow pages and they will find a wealth of local businesses just waiting to help them and most are not any more expensive then the big box store but they all are experts in what they sell they do not try and sell every thing they specialize and because of that they are better. And even if they do charge a little more they are more likely to have the repair parts to fix what they sell you and they know what you need when you ask a question. You can actually talk to the owner (not a manager but the guy who actually is in charge of the company)Need a lawn mower try the local lawn mower dealer and repair shop I bet they not only have new models but more then a few used ones that run great talk about saving money. And even if you by new you know who to call if it needs fixing.
I just do not get those who buy a John deer lawn mower from HD the HD actual makes you take it to a local John deer dealer to get it serviced why not just buy from him to begin with.Shop Local people Look to your local privately own business first your life will be much better I promise. And you might be surprised when they actually act like they want your business. They won't even make you be your own casher.
I agree with you 100%. I repair homes. My most often statement to homeowners is "I am sorry it will have to be replaced, not repaired." No one seems to think long term anymore. Homeowners do not understand that big box stores are Mass Merchandisers, they buy by the truck load. That light fixture won't be on the shelf next year. There are no long term relationships between suppliers and merchandisers.
Glad Not every one hates me. :)
I have a different set of experiences with local businesses, especially lumber companies.
Some problems I observed:
Price gouging
Disdainful employees
Poor return policies
Poor variety
I could write a long post on any of these along with examples, as well as many other issues.
I will say that many of these areas have improved with competition from big box stores of all types. I certainly remember the times before the competition arrived as being much worse. There is a reason why big stores are so successful and why their parking lots are filled. People like what they provide.
For the record, I don't agree with most of your opinions about store policies. I think some people, like me for instance, actually enjoy wandering through the aisles and filling a cart and even loading it ourselves. If I had to wait at home for a delivery each time I buy something from Home Depot, I would have to spend three or four hours a day waiting for a truck to arrive.
"If I had to wait at home for a delivery each time I buy something from Home Depot, I would have to spend three or four hours a day waiting for a truck to arrive. "Hmm every here of planning ahead? personally I do not wake up in the morning and need a truck load of lumber. I know I am going to need it at least a day ahead and that is all my suppliers need. Also I can call from a job site in the morning and have lumber within a hour without having to even go anywhere. This is a rush order so it might require a delivery charge but If I have to leave a job site to run and get something when I can keep working on something else while I wait it is worth it. Also if you consider it could take me a hour or more to run out load a cart then load my truck (after waiting in a long checkout line at the box store) then drive back and unload I might loose more then a hour easy.You will never get any box store to deliver within a hourAlso just because you don't put it on a cart does not mean you can't take it with you. Wouldn't you like to have someone load your truck for you? You can even pick your lumber off the pile but you just do not need to load it on a cart you drive your truck to the lumber pile (And yes they have covered lumber since they do not have customers walking through the lumber piles like it is a supermarket you can drive your truck right inside.Disdainful employees ?
Hmm I deal direct with owners or a sales rep assigned to my account.
Try and contact the owner of a big box store.
And it is the same guy all the time not a min. wage employee that will quit and not be there next time. Price gouging.
Are you sure? The price the Big box stores can buy at it much better sometimes so yes prices of certain items maybe lower at the big box store. But also some of the items are not the same quality HD has manufactures make items just for them and they use cheaper parts and put the same model number plus one letter or they sell their own brand.
So can you really compare the prices it is not apples to applesPoor return policies, Like what I return stuff all the time to local suppliers as long as it was not a special order I can return anything I want no problem. Also since many customers have abused the return policies at the box stores they are not as open as they used to be.variety? You can't be saying the box stores have variety? I can find more Plumbing fixture choices at a dedicated plumbing supply house and a lower price then HD or Lowes.I get more choices of tile and tile supplies at Tile America and other Specialty stores then HD or lowes.A dedicated electrical and light supply will have far more items to choose from also.In fact if what I want is a High End item no big box store will carry it. The big box stores carry low to mid quality items only. (that is biggest reason they are cheaper they sell lower quality items in volume)And as for lumber a dedicated lumber yard will have way more in stock then any big box store. Try and get LVLs or TimberStrand Studs or Microliam Beams from a big box store.
And as for millwork and hardwood you can not even get most of the choices a specialty millshop can offer. Or better yet get a HD to do a accurate plan take off and deliver a house worth of lumber to your site. (I would not trust HD to even know how to do a plan takeoff never mind get the order right.) Can the home depot or lowes look at you planes and not only know how much dry wall you need but also deliver it to your site and boom it in to the second floor and distribute it throughout the house so the hangers can work quickly without having to move stacks of drywall around? No they do not have the expertise to do that. (I must clarify that to say a Large dedicated lumber yard. I have several big lumber yards to choose from with a few locations each but even the smaller lumber yard just around the corner from my house has LVLs and and bigger stock of lumber then HD I could order enough lumber to do a 900 sq. ft. addition and get it delivered the next morning even from the small lumber yard try that at HD)Oh and yes quality costs more and most of what the box store sells is not quality.Also if you read my post I never said that the box stores don't have their place but there are other options and for a lot of the items sold at the big box store (at least in my area) many times the options do a better job.I do not know where you live it could be a area where a few supply houses had a monopoly for a long time before the big box stores came along. But here in New England towns are much closer so there has always been competition so it may be why we have very good local suppliers.Now I understand to a home owner the suppliers that are used to dealing with contractors who know what they want it may take them awhile to get used to the way things are done. Or it may be intimidating to some but really you might want to give some of those local suppliers another chance.I know not every one will agree with me and I do not mean to insult anyone if you like HD then fine shop there personally I like my back more and the less I have to handle my building supplies the better. Also I feel it is the supermarket attitude that makes the big box store seem convenient but I just do not see it that way. I do not know what you buy or how often buy it but wouldn't you rather have what you want brought to were you need it without you having to do anything other then pay.Edited 4/5/2008 6:31 pm ET by MFournierEdited 4/5/2008 6:56 pm ET by MFournier
Edited 4/5/2008 7:01 pm ET by MFournier
My experience was gained in a number of parts of the country over many years. The negatives I implied concerning the local merchants were much more pronounced 30 to 40 years ago, by my experience. They have improved where they had to, but they were not ever really consumer-oriented, IMO. I do go to the lumberyards when it makes sense.
I obtained a price schedule (printout) from a local lumberyard about three years ago when I was actively engaged as a contractor. I mention this because I believe their attitudes toward the customer are not yet where they sould be. I went back a couple of days later to buy a few items - lumber, paint, and a few tools. The prices were all higher than had been quoted to me in writing by as much as 100% over the quoted price in the case of some lumber. I was new to this company, so they did not recognize me as a builder when I came in for my merchandise. I was actually doing a job at my home, so the quantities probably appeared to them like those of a typical homeowner who decided to do a project.
Also, I asked them about preparing drawings for a typical house in this area. They said they would do it for about $2000 and not charge if I bought the materials from them. I typically do the same drawings in about a day and a half on my computer, even less if I have done a similar plan, because I can just copy huge parts of the drawings instead of starting from scratch. I call this gouging.
I don't want to establish personal relations with lumberyard employees. I don't want to deal with their personality quirks. I just want to do business and get out of there. I don't like people raising their eyebrows at me if I want something my way. I don't want somebody telling me how things are done locally. I don't go to the lumberyard because I need a friend. I just want the best possible price with the least possible hassle. I will determine if loading and delivery is important enough to me at any particular time to justify the additional expense of working with the locals who obviously do not have the negotiating clout of the big boxes.
You seemed very aware of the value of planning ahead. Yes, the local yard can deliver same day. Yes, HD needs a few days or maybe even a week if you need LVLs which they don't stock in their stores. If you actually believe in planning ahead, you can get some pretty good prices at HD. Of course there is a nominal delivery charge, but at least you know how much it will be. You also know that you will not be getting any cr@p lumber that was returned muddy and deformed from another job site.
Yes, I can get unusual requirements handled at lumber yards, tool stores, and whatever, and I do that when the need arises. I know that I can go to a local plumbing supply house and find many things that are not stocked at the big box.
Frankly, I can go on the internet and find a hundred or a thousand times as many products as are stocked or obtainable at the local supply houses.
All of these sources are practical under the right circumstances.
Well I will first say Lets agree to disagree You have a lot of valid points and yes I am sure that many have shared your experiences.
And yes HD and Lowes are geared to do-it your self weekend warriors not to guys like me that care more about quality then always the lowest price. And they are open late and on Sunday. I do shop there. I even have a "personal relationship" as you say, with the guys at the prodesk at my local HD. Problem is they are bound more by Corporate policy then customer service but they do what they can for me when I do shop there so no I am not organizing a boycott of Big box stores.You say "I don't want to establish personal relations with lumberyard employees"Well you see that is the difference between us I feel you have some kind of personal relationship with every person you meet with each day.
Be it the guy who handed you your coffee at the local coffee shop in the morning or the guy you are doing work for. Your kids teacher, or your neighbor it makes no difference to me I treat everyone as if they are important to me. I feel be it a short term relationship or a long term one how you approach each person you meet has a direct relation to how they treat you. I have never had to advertise once in 15 years in business (I work as a employee before that) Why personal relationships thats why. I get references from people I do not even remember meeting but they remembered me. I also do the same for others I give them business they do the same for me. For me business relationships are the same as personal relationships I treat everyone as if they are important even the guy who loads my lumber.A little story I needed a delivery, some lumber for a remodel to replace some rot we discovered in the middle of a job. It was very late in the day when I called in the order and the guy in the lumber yard not the owner not my sales rep. but the guy who drives a fork lift and delivery trucks for the lumber yard over heard the call asked hey is that for mike they said yes why, he said no problem what does he need I'll drop it off on my way home.Now here is a guy who will make nothing for this he volunteered to drop off some lumber for me on his own time with his own pickup truck. Why? because of personal relationships And you know what If I have a early morning trip to the lumber yard and I stop to pick up a coffee I get him one and when I drive around to the yard with my truck I hand it to him and say thanks.Personal relationships are a good thing to establish and worth my time. I treat everyone I meet like they are the most important person to me, for to them they are. I try to remember their name smile and say hi it costs me nothing. Try it you might find you get treated much better yourself when you treat others this way.
Edited 4/6/2008 10:25 am ET by MFournier
I do treat people this way when they respond appropriately. I prefer to get along and be polite and professional and be treated politely and professionally. The problem I have with some employees is that some of them are entrenched in their jobs and have developed personalities over the years that I do not necessarily want to adjust to.
You know some of these folks. Joe likes to tell racist jokes, John has his moods and is hard to work with on Monday morning. Jim will do a material takeoff for you, but don't point out that you want TSL for your plates rather than regular pressure treated. He prefers to have you build with what is in the yard at the time you order. Jeff acts like it is a real pain to look up a price for me. Really, I shouldn't even be asking about price.
That brings up another point. Most of these places do not bother to put prices on anything. That practice makes the customer ripe for abuse.
And then there's Jerald, Jake, and the others, but I don't need to go through all of their quirks.
By the way, since you are successful at having great personal relationships, I can only say more power to you for that! I'm too cranky to put as much effort into it as you do. To each his own, as the saying goes. :)
I know some of those builder supply stores too Sasquatch.I also remember the days before the Big Boxes. It was impossible to get decent MEP parts without getting ripped off by some wholesaler becuase we weren't on account. The guys at the counter weren't helpful either becuase we weren't HVAC guys or Plumbers or electricians. Sometimes, a roundup of small parts for each of these phases might take 6 hours and lots of gas. The boxes have been both a bane and a blessing. Homeowners couldn't find the stuff either and sawzalls were a mystery to them. They looked at pros with awe instead of disdain. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
People don't just shop the big box for price, they shop because it is open when they can shop. Sure, if you are a contractor who is getting your building supplies from 8:00 to 5:00 during the day then you can go to the lumber store or specialty store of your choice. But for anybody who needs a wax ring on a Saturday, the big box is the only place open. When it is an important item and we need quality, I will take off from work to go to the appropriate store. But there is an added cost there because I have to take off from work. And with a few exceptions I haven't found the employees at our local lumber stores to be any more knowledgeable than the folks at the big box.
Yes I never said stop shopping big box stores altogether. I also feel the big box stores could improve their service and I might even enjoy shopping there.
Why big box for your kitchens.
I work with an awesome kitchen designer.
She actually refers a lot of clients to me and I refer all of my clients to her.
We work great together, she is the daughter of a builder and been in the business a long time.
We can do a small affordable kitchen renovation and we can do a 300K decked out awesome reno and both come out great.
Price is competetive with big box. We get the personal touch and it works.
I would start asking around in the local market and find out if there is a good local company that would partner with you. Many designers are looking for good contractors to partner with too cause they sell the kitchen to the client and then client goes and hires contractor and contractor bitches about everything the designer does or did and the job is not a success.
fwiw
I'll go where ever people want to go. I like Lowes cause I have a very good designer there who works with me all the time.
I did a kitchen install where Home Depot measured the cabinets - got it wrong, came out measured again, got it wrong again, measured a third time, got it wrong a third time.
And they made a point of saying the clients wouldn't be having these problems if they had used Home Depot's installers (huh? - what does the installer have to do with screwed up measurements?)
I modified the cabinets to make 'em work, then talked the clients into using a local cabinet shop for the rest of the project.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
actually sounds smart.
How do they know U can read a tape?
wishing some of the kitchen dealers I've worked with in the past had such policies.
especially for their employeed designers.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Actually, I liked the thought of Depot taking the liability too. We need to get this job going though and their guys were gonna take an extra week to get out to measure.
oh ... I doubt it means they'll take any responsibility!
just makes sense that they'd want to take away one less layer of potential blame.
betting somewhere in there's some small print about U having to verify their field measurements anyway.
I worked a good eal with a guy at a local Cabinet World. My old dealer switched stocked lines ... and I still wanted to sell Wellborn, so knowing CW carried them I dropped in one day.
told the guy I wanted them to match the discount I had at the other place.
first he said Nope.
I then said all he's to do is walk thru with the customer after the job is 99% sold.
I'd do all initial design and measuring and cabinet selections.
he'd draw my stuff up on their computer, then do the 3-D walk thru, and triple check my measurements ... and upsell what every he could.
he liked a quick easy sale with very little of his time spent.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
There was a guy at a table in HD today and I made eye contact with him as I walked by. He asked if I needed a bahrom remodel. As I walked by I leaned over and said I'd do it myself. There's no way I would ever consider using HD's services.
I could go on all night listing reasons I dislike Home Depot....I dislike them so much so that I will out and out refuse a job specifying material (certainly cabinetry) from there.
But I gotta say....I agree with them 100% in this instance.
I know my granite guy wouldn't trust my measurements for a counter top....and I've worked with him for years.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
"and I've worked with him for years."
well sure ...
by now he knows better!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah.....I knew I was settin' the table for you guys.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Granite is a different story. I dont install granite and wouldn't even attempt to measure for it. I do however install kitchen cabinets and think I have a pretty firm grasp of a tape measure. Thanks to you guys I even know what the red diamonds a for.