Anybody here do it? If so, full or part time? Is it worth the effort? Any suggestions about getting into it would be appreciated.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Built from locally sawn hemlock, this functional outdoor feature uses structural screws and metal connectors for fast, sturdy construction.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
Bob Walker would be the guy to talk too...
and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and then learn nothing.
Unfortunately, most home inspectors never walked the walk only talked the walk.
Gabe
>>and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and talk to and then learn nothing.
Some people find that listening is a pre-condition to learning.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/20/2004 6:04:42 AM ET by Bob Walker
Kinda figured that I would get your attention with that one.
Generally speaking, home inspectors are the most overated and underqualified component in the housing industry.
If you were still practicing law, you'd have to sue yourself on behalf of your clients.
There are still many things that can't be learnt from reading all the books in the world. Understanding and appreciating construction through practical experience is one of them.
Gabe
BTW hope your still feeling fine.
"Generally speaking, home inspectors are the most overated and underqualified component in the housing industry."
Hey Gabe, I thought that was architects? Maybe we're second only to home inspectors?
Architects are a vital component in construction (just behind engineers:)
The home inspection industry has no real value in the industry. They are a tool of the unscrupulous realtor in an attempt to give crediability to a perception of checks and balances in an industry that is artificially inflated.
Gabe
>home inspectors are the most overated and underqualified component in the housing industry
Look at the economic drivers. A lot of prospective buyers let a real estate agent recommend an inspector. The average agent isn't concerned about the customer's interest; they're concerned about making the sale. A competent inspection might turn up something that would allow the buyer to walk away from their earnest money or renegotiate. Either way, the Realtor is going to have to spend more hours before they collect their commission. Seems to me if you're a cynical real estate agent, you want the most incompetent inspector you can find.
One of the things I did right in buying a house was hiring my own inspector. It took some calling around and some luck, but I got an experienced guy with common sense who did a good job.
Pete
"One of the things I did right in buying a house was hiring my own inspector. It took some calling around and some luck, but I got an experienced guy with common sense who did a good job. "
Amen, brother! Our real estate agent tried to get us to use his inspector when we were buying our house. It was an old house and therefore had the potential of having lots of issues. We wanted to be going into this huge financial transaction with both eyes wide open. I got a bunch of recommendations from work, and found an experienced guy who really took his time going over the house. He found a lot of things wrong with the place, but put them into perspective for us based on the age of the house. It didn't kill the deal, or even knock the price down too much, but we did get a few minor repairs taken care of and got a list of things, as the new home owners, to keep an eye on. I'm really glad he did such a good job.
I've since recommended that home inspector to everyone that I can. Although lately few people have been asking around for home inspectors. I assume that they are so happy to even find a house that they can afford in this area, they don't want to have an inspection be part of the buying process at all.
Took the test and passed..woulda had to ride along with a licensed one for 6 mos..to get a license in NC. Chose not to.
In my neck of the Woods all you need is a Dog, A pick-up, a ladder & a flashlight & your a home inspector. Most realtors (former housewives) keep them in business. I even have had to deal with a few husband (inspector) wife (realtor) teams. I guess if you know a bunch of real estate people you could make out oK!
I believe in the process ... wouldn't but a house muself without one ...
had a great inspector .. realtor refered ... for our own stuff ...
but have since run into lots that know almost nothing ...
The guy I work with ... makes a good living . .... but he's one of the most expensive and experienced .... there's an inspector association ... you have to have a coupla hundred inspections under your belt before they consider you for membership. ...
and seeing as I'd only hire someone that's already a member ... if I started inspecting tomorrow ... I'd not hire myself!
Gotta be tough to get started and make money ...
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
We hired one when we got our house. All accredited and all that jazz.
Got a 12-page "report" obviously generated by some automated software from some checkboxes. Mostly obvious advice, not specific to the house other than, for example, "roof 5 years old, 25 year shingles - should consider getting roof shingles inspected in ten years".
Got some bad advice (he thought nothing heavier than wrapping paper should be stored in an attic) and he missed a mis-installation of a boiler (through-wall exhaust/intake installed on windward side of the house with no wind guard - rain blows right in). Three months after we moved in, and after replacing rusted parts the boiler, it finally blew up (no really, 3 feet in the air - I was about 5 feet away).
Being newly housepoor, I got to learn how to do plumbing, all about thermostats, metal tape, flue venting, chimney repair, etc. which is all good, but there's no liability for the inspector, and after the $300 inspection I was out about $2K for the boiler.
So, long story short, you don't have to be very good, you don't expose yourself to much risk, and you still get your money because the banks won't give a mortgage without one. Sounds like a great job to me!
your story sorta sums up why I gave up home inspection work about 3 years ago. You simply can't win. Either the home -buyer hates you eventually because of some very obscure and undetectable reason (remember , you are only paying for 2-4 hours on site,) or you find things and then your buisness is slow cause the real- estate agents avoid you like the plague.
The money and working conditions were OK, but not great. I guess I just wasn't thick skinned enough.
>> I guess I just wasn't thick skinned enough.
You only need a thick skin if you have any respect for the voices of negativity.
When you realize they're nothing more than impotent nattering nabobs of negativity, you get a chuckle out of their mewlings and self inflicted insults.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/20/2004 10:30:44 PM ET by Bob Walker
BiilMcG
I'm sorry you ran into one of the "less than ideal" inspectors.
What basis did you use to pick your inspector?
Price? Referral? Experience? Did you ask about the report that would be provided?
My own experience is that 99.9% of people calling (who haven't been directly referred) ask first about price. Maybe 25% of them are only interested in price.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Bob,
I for one appreciate your comments in this forum and hearing of your experiences.
An ex-boat builder treading water!
Bob Thanks.
Boat builder! I didn't know that.
I am in complete awe of people with the skills that line of work involves!
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
What basis did you use to pick your inspector?
Price? Referral? Experience? Did you ask about the report that would be provided?
Nah, at the time I was 21 and didn't know very much about homes. Basically all I knew was that it was required by our lender and that some were certified/licensed (from the how-to-buy-a-house book I got). Our buyer-broker agent recommended an inspection company that had several certified inspectors, so we went with them. Price wasn't an issue - I thought that if we paid good money we'd get a better inspection and any cost difference would evaporate quickly over the years from his improved findings.
With 20/20 hindsight, if I were to buy another house I'd try to find an older guy who's been on job sites for a few decades and maybe does it part time. My sister's working on buying a house and we've got a family friend who's been a hands-on general contractor for 30 years who's also certified as a home inspector for his wind-down years. That seems to be the best of both world.
My ideal inspector has lots of experience and a good eye for detail. You just 'notice' things more easily the more experience you have with it.
BillMcG
Good points, a couple of amplifications:
I believe the best contracting experience to have is in remodeling and repair; you see what actually works and what doesn't.
New construction guys don't always see how "the way we've always done it" sometimes doesn't work too well over the medium to long term.
I'm not a big fan of part time inspectors for a couple of reasons.
First, plain old self-interest on my part: they have a tendency to underprice; they make their living in another way and either don't fully understand the costs involved or they do but don't need to make the kind of profit a full time inspector needs to make to survive, much less prosper.
Second, I find they often have a tendency to think in terms of "code" when those issues don't really have a bearing on a house.
Small example: Last summer I did a pre-listing inspection on a house built in the 30's. The neighborhood was high-end when built, and is still considered a pretty nice neighborhood.
The crawl space access was typical for a house that age - maybe 30" wide and 18-20" deep (and off a landing to the cellar and was a real bitch to get into!)
All of the crawl space accesses in that neighborhood are similar.
A few months later, a buyer hires a GC who is also a home inspector. The guy is a very good builder and, from everything I've seen, a good inspector - he's one of the inspectors I refer business to in the overflow months. (He's also a good guy.)
I hear later that he reportedly called out that access as not "meeting code" - I say apparently because his client, the buyer, tried to use that as a "deficiency" to beat the seller down on price. I don't know exactly what John said at this point, and I don't know how much emphasis John put on it and how much the buyer was exaggerating.
The point is, for someone looking at homes in that price range in that neighborhood, they don't need to know if old details like that would pass a code inspection today - they just need to know that "Hey, this crawl space access is pretty small and it'll be tough for anyone to get in if there is some need to do so."
And that leads to the third point: part of my view of what I do is provide comparative info for my buyer: "You're looking in a certain price range in a certain neighborhood. I'm not going to compare this house top another house in a different style, different price range and different neighborhood because that information won't be of much use."
That's not to say that if a particular style has general positive or negative points I won't mention it, but too much comparison doesn't usually serve the client, in my opinion.
And, of course, the more you see of a particular style of house in a particular neighborhood, the more baseline info you have at hand
I believe that part timers sometimes don't have the experience to draw on to make that kind of meaningful comparison of apples to apples and not apples to oranges. (Less so, of course, with an experienced contractor.)
BTW: "certified" doesn't mean anything in the HI field. There are a couple of groups that sell "certification" with absolutely no criteria or qualifications required.
(Some of the newer state laws might use that term, though.)
But, aside from these long winded quibbles, I agree with the points you were making: such as "My ideal inspector has lots of experience and a good eye for detail. You just 'notice' things more easily the more experience you have with it."
When one is new to the field, one tends to try to look at every detail and think about "is this right - what was that rule I learned about xyz."
Sometimes you lose sight of the forest for the trees.
After several hundred houses, one begins to just look - the stuff that is wrong reaches out and grabs you.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Seems like a good gig if you have some experience or take a training course and then go out and make a lot of inspections of FOR SALE properties. Another good training ground is to take the classes for becoming a building official, especially for FHA certification which requires dozens of supervised inspections to pass the course.
There are computer software programs that allow you to get set up quickly for generation of professional reports which buyers now expect in exchange for their money. Also you can actually get into the construction trade as a quality control person for a larger builder. You will see a lot of stuff in a short time if they do a large volume. The necessity to rely on Realestate agents as a source of business is a sore spot as they don't make a sale (i.e.money) if you find all the flaws in a home they have sold pending an "inspection" Many buyers will rely on the agent to suggest a "good inspector" which means not too many queered deals from their stand point. This isn't the best thing for the buyer but they were really dumb to not hire their own guy to begin with. A lot of buyers don't want a full inspection either as then their dream home will not qualify for a loan or will other wise mess up their deal.
This is a good explanation of why an inspector won't be able to guarantee a 100% O.K. house!!!!! Guess the choice of this profession is up to you and if you can make the necessary adjustments to what the market demands regardless of your own high standards!!!!
I do it full time.
Some good comments in this thread, some hot air. (Nothing new there!)
PA has a "licensing" law, but it is next to useless, IMHO, and it's easy to get the ticket there.
As pointed out there are a lot of "inspectors" who don't provide much value, in large part because it looks like an easy biz to get into. And the math looks good (buckle up:) 3 x $250 x (let's take a month's vacation) 48 = $XYZ. Whoa momma!
Of course, starting out, you'll be lucky to get 1/wk. Any the costs are a lot higher than appear on the surface.
One industry survey a couple of years ago calculated that it costs the average inspector about $100 in overhead per inspection. That figure is much higher, of course, for new inspectors.
In my area there is a core group of about 20 inspectors who are here year in and year out, most of whom are, in my opinion, pretty good.
Every year about 10 new people arrive, and every year about 10 leave (with close to 100% matchup between those two "groups.")
Some messages from the past worth loking at include: 5824.4 -- 13454.36 -- 25424.23 -- 2063.11 -- 2199.5
There are more, of course, which you can turn up using a forum search for "home inspector" and "home inspection."
You will note that I posted most of the messages I just mentioned. This issue comes up a lot and as the "resident" home ispector here, I usually offer my opinon or advice.
Maybe it's just "talk and talk and talk" or maybe there is some substance in those messages. You can decide for yourself.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I was wondering what you thought about the comments "Timh" made:
"your story sorta sums up why I gave up home inspection work about 3 years ago. You simply can't win....your buisness is slow cause the real- estate agents avoid you like the plague."
There was a guy in town who did home inspections for a while. He came to the same conclusion pretty quickly.
He said all he managed to do was get the realtors really pissed at him. They looked at his inspections as a real deal killer. The homeowners rarely appreciated the efforts he went to.
You don't seem to be affected like that. Is it because you're not doing it part time? Or because home inspectors are better in your area? Or more respected?
Just curious...........Needing someone is like needing a parachute. If he isn't there the first time you need him, chances are you won't be needing him again.
BH, I can only make some educated guesses.
Based on comments I've heard and read from other HI's around the country, I wonder if the real estate agents in my area are just less predatory or something.
There aren't many in my area who try to influence the inspection or resent the findings. There are a few, of course, and there are a few who bad mouth me and other HI's as a deal killers.
Most of the agents around here understand that a good home inspection helps keep their necks off the chopping block.
I also suspect that some HI's might get into mutual dislike situations with agents - some seem to start out thinking RE agents are crooks, and I suspect that that sort of attitude gets communicated to some extent and leads to reciprocal feelings.
A couple of the HI's in my area have done a very good job of educating RE agents as to what to expect and to understand that a good HI never kills a deal, although there are some times we see houses that insist on committing suicide!
I also had some excellent training and experience when I first got into the field, and I believe that my prior experience as a lawyer, with the emphasis on client service, helps.
I view my job as involving education as much as problem spotting. Spotting the problems is only the start. Helping the client understand the context and significance of them is equally important.
I believe that a common problem among beginning HIs is failing to provide context and perspective. If you don't explain the significance of, say a receptacle with reversed polarity, you can create unnecessary anxiety and uncertainty at a time of already high anxiety.
An important lesson I learned is to make sure the buyer understands how to solve the problems which are found, understands what is involved in solving them.
For reasons I don't understand, some HI's are proud of their adversary relationship with RE agents. I know of one who even advertises "I'm your agent's worst nightmare!"
Personally, I don't particularly care if an agent likes me or hates me, (I don't market through agents.) My concern is solely whether my client gets the necessary information to make informed decisions.
And perhaps the fact that I really enjoy this line of work brings about positive results and reactions.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Maybe I should re-phrase my earlier comment questioning how "thick-skinned" I was around RE agents. More accuratly I gave up home -inspecting because I was sick and tired of RE agents jacking me around with lies and maniipulations. Out of (my guess) 500 agents I dealt with in Anchorage AK, I would only trust 2 or 3 of them with my personal RE transactions. What does that say?
The Anchorage (might be the whole state, don't know) MLS offer to puurchase form that most RE agents use has a spot for the seller to veto any particular HI. How many sellers do you think know anything about who might be a goood or bad HI? It's the RE agents who coach them of course.
I was a deal killer on occasion, if the house earned that moniker. Kinda hated to have that happen cause I knew I would most likely never do another inspection for either agent involed with that deal or their cronies. I was very good at what I did. Almost 2000 inspections before I gave it up. Sure don't miss it at all.
>>The Anchorage (might be the whole state, don't know) MLS offer to puurchase form that most RE agents use has a spot for the seller to veto any particular HI.
Wow!
Although I can understand the underlying concern - there are bad inspectors who just screw things up - that clause is, in my opinion, a really bad way to deal with the problem, giving far to much power to the agents.
Unfortunately, this is the type of thing that "the marketplace" is very inefficient at fixing/correcting.
The number of transactions (house sales) is relatively low, and the average home buyer isn't likely to focus on that one issue to see how it can severely undercut their interests, and is even less likely going to feel they have any power to change the "standard" contract.
This is the sort of thing the local chapters of the HI trade associations should be dealing with.
I think they should be approaching the brokers and the state regulators.
With the brokers, I'd simply point out that by using that clause, they and their agents are hanging onto huge potential liability in every sale.
And I hope you didn't get the impression I was criticizing you. I have great respect for you through your posts here, and have no reason or cause to criticize.
If, by any chance, I created that impression, I simply didn't mean to and I apologize if I inadvertently did.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Thanks for the comments Bob.
Something occured to me reading your posts - I wonder if some of this has to do with the size of the towns?
I don't recall wherre you live, but it must be fairly big if you have a lot of building inspectors around.
The town I live in is about 6,000 if you count the people living in adjacent subdivisions that aren't in the city limits.
Everybody knows each other here, and people tend to take things more personally. Maybe it's not quite the same in a larger town?Procrastinate now.
BH - good point.
I live near Toledo, OH. I think of it as a small town, but we do have a few more than 6,000 {G}
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Coming in later here Boss, and still wondering if this thread will degenerate totally to a gabe/bob blowout, but I had the same thought about town size and how it modifies some behaviours. I do some inspections both for HOs and for real estate people. Recently, I declined one because I was friends with the RE and with the seller, and with the potential purchasor of the home. somebody would have been upset and I didn't need the emotional repercussions.
in small towns, everyone wears more than one hat.
Excellence is its own reward!
"Most of the agents around here understand that a good home inspection helps keep their necks off the chopping block."
That was the impression that I got from a RE friend of mine. I was going to ask her specifically, but have not had the chance.
But one thing that she is told me THEY WILL NOT RECOMMEND AN INSPECTOR.
They will give them a list of 3 or so.
Again they are trying to limit their liability.
They wont suggest or reccomend an inspetor here either . Theres a list on a peice of paper of every inspector in the state . Its a hand out and they will not voice opinion on whether you need one or not . Nothing .
I can fully see their point . The clause is listed on the offer and acceptence that they may be a redneck if they dont hire an inspector to represent them . The real estate makes no warranties to the condition what so ever and took out the clause of " do you have any knowledge " . Its now on the home owner and inspector in the words 'as is " , or the seller can buy a warranty for the buyer as part of the package .
Tim Mooney
I love doing Home Inspections, I do it for free or let them pay half of what others charge, but I only do it for friends. Real Estate agents know me, but would never refer me cause I know TOO much. I only do 2 a year average.
I would always want both husband and wife AND any and all relatives there too to ask all the questions. I have be there to kill sales because they found a better deal. I have found "MAJOR" problems that the people can live with at a lower price. Most inspections result in a Walk Thru Training the new homeowners. I teach prospective homeowners how to shut utilities, change filters, clean a Vent-a-Hood, reset breakers and where an addition could go. I can expain any crack in the concrete or stuccoe. I also would give advice on how to be good neighbors.
Lurking around BT teaches me more or reinforces what I do know. $50,000+ a year for part time work is not my interest. Too much interest in computers, cars, volunteering and people.
Bob W. has disagreed with some of my stuff and that's OK. I do give advice too quickly on too little information. Lots of my advice has no back up or proof, but people says it sound logical. I do have "Senior Moments", but if you love what your doing, you'll become an expert.
Had a talk with Bob Walker over a year ago.
Pursued the license. Enrolled in state certified "provider"course.
Checked out the insurance at about $120/month.
License arrived in July after test and fees of $700.
Hung out a shingle...managed 21 inspections in the balance of the year. $5300
My July insurance quote was $4700....still running naked...not affordable.
Realtor's want a "good inspector"...translates to "make me the sale $$$$$!!
I usually am not realtor refered after the first couple of inspects at any office. Although my clients seem to be appreciative of my depth of technicality and willingness to discuss issues and potential fixes. I have a good record for repeat clients that continue to shop and know I'm a srtaight shooter.
Several other inspectors keep busy by "mediating the reports" by "sofening statements" and "truncating discussions" in a walk through." Thus helping the sale to close. Also generating higher insurance costs by slackard inspections which glean more irate customers that sue. I have been asked to do all the above by some realtors.....I smile and keep my standards.
The flow of money is the local criteria.....not valid honest inspections.
Thick skinned, or stick to your guns, or maintain your standards requires that you have another income source to support yourself till the support base for your exacting methods builds itself.
On occassion I am called by a past realtor to do an inspection where the client has asked for a thorough inspection on a house that has some apparent problems and wants an exhaustive report.
It's tough starting.....I love dissecting out the problems within each house and resolving those issues. But in the eyes of a realtor I'm not the Cat's meow.
Time will tell if I continue...or fold for lack of work!
Meantime I can still swing a hammer...!
..................Iron Helix
I talked to Bob Walker about a year or so about it . I didnt do it , but if I was going to do it I would talk to him in detail . Hes the resident inspector here and hes helpful if youve learned how to not po the cook . There are several here in different areas of expertise and they are helpful . Bob , is the one to listen to on this one .
Tim Mooney
Yup
Anybody here know an inspector in Houston, TX? I could throw them some business in the next week or two.
As to value to the construction biz, I believe HI's sometimes do add direct value.
Often practices develop in a market which are less than "ideal." There have been times that HI's have prodded builders and building code inspectors to improve their practices.
A small example: a county near me doesn't enforce the hand railing requirements, allowing builders to continue to use 2x6's for handrails.
Following an inspection of a new house where I called such a railing as "non-standard practice and a potential safety hazard" (remember that I am not a code enforcer and am not an "authority having jurisdiction") one builder has changed his practice and now uses code compliant handrails. (In the "discussion" following my inspection , I not only cited code, but brought in an older FHB issue to show the builder that I wasn't just some flake with a hair up his ####.)
Some builders have started using required kickout flashings in my area in large part because HI's began calling out the failure to use them.
There is at least one insulation installer in my area who no longer blows cellulose over knob and tube wiring because he has learned from an HI the problem with that practice.
Based on what I have read in some HI forums, I believe those types of situations where HI's have improved practices in a local market have been repeated across the country in hundreds or thousands of markets.
The analogy to the auto industry doesn't take into account that the auto industry is almost completely factory assembly line (they still make Morgan's by hand so it's not 100%) and there are few auto companies and the tooling costs are so high that boat-loads of engineers have been involved in the process. The housing industry is still largely "hand built" with lots of room for human error.
BTW, there are times when a person develops an attitude about another person and allows that attitude to cloud his opinions about a range of subjects.
I believe that principle has been clearly demonstrated in this thread.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
BTW, there are times when a person develops an attitude about another person and allows that attitude to cloud his opinions about a range of subjects.
I believe that principle has been clearly demonstrated in this thread.
Don't be silly Bob, I think you're a little misguided but I believe you to be honest and trustworthy.
The car mechanic analogy doesn't compare in any way to home inspectors.
The car mechanic is part of the industry like any tradesman in the construction industry.
Taking a car to a local mechanic you know and trust is one thing. To take a car to a car wash attendant would be another thing altogether and that's what you do when you have your house checked out by the average HI.
He or she may have seen a lot of houses, seen a lot of people working on homes, seen a lot of books on the subject but .......................have not built enough homes to fully understand the big picture and only give a partial interpretation of what they see to the client and therefore........................shortchange the client.
Gabe
>>Don't be silly Bob, I think you're a little misguided but I believe you to be honest and trustworthy.
Funny, that wasn't the impression I got when you said: "If you were still practicing law, you'd have to sue yourself on behalf of your clients."
Which is it? I'm honest and trustworthy or I should be sued?
I'm a "little misguided" or nothing I have to say is of any value? (See msg 3 in this thread.)
How many of my substantive posts have you seen where you believed I got it wrong? There was one a couple of months ago where I had a senior moment and screwed up on the rules for cutting joists. There have been discussions on various issues where people have disagreed, such as the recent venting by a roof ridge, but there are many areas in home building where there are differing, subjective opinions.
>>that's what you do when you have your house checked out by the average HI.
"The 'average' HI? Funny, I somehow got a different impression of your views when you said: "The home inspection industry has no real value in the industry."
And you've mentioned experience a couple of times.
Are you saying that the "average HI" doesn't have any practical experience? Do you somehow have the idea that I don't have any building experience?
You are wrong on the second.
On the first, all I can talk about are the HI's I know through trade associations and various meetings and being in the business for a number of years. The vast majority of the HI's I know have years of experience in the trades.
In my experience and opinion, building experience only is no better preparation for doing home inspections than is book learning only.
I believe that both are necessary for doing home inspections.
I'm not saying that all HI's are good or experienced or are valuable. Far from it. I have noted the contrary in this forum a number of times. There are a lot of people who think it's going to be easy money and all they have to do is (maybe) take a one week course and they can do the job. (And the one week course offered by many of the franchise operations mainly deal with marketing)
However, you paint an overly negative picture, in my experience and opinion.
I'm curious as to what basis you have for the remarks you have made about the home inspection industry and home inspectors.
Are those opinions based on any sort of actual wide spread experience (you know, the type of knowledge you have pointed out is so important for HI's) or are they based on some reading and some conclusions you have drawn from that reading?
How many home inspectors do you know well enough to judge their capabilities? How many home inspections have you been on?
As you have said, Gabe, there is no substitute for practical experience.
You've made some pretty strong claims, Gabe. Can you support them?
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/21/2004 7:10:26 AM ET by Bob Walker
Bob, I wouldn't hesitate to hire you as a HI; I've read a lot of your posts, and you seem to understand things well (politice aside <G>). We had an experience with a HI (hired by the b uyers) when we sold our previous house - he pointed out two things: one was that the flue liners in the chimney didn't line up, they were offset by about 2". But they've been like that for 30 years, long before I lived there, and I never thought to look. So that was legitimate. The house was on a well, and when he opened every single tap in the house at the same time, "in order to check the water pressure", until the well went dry, we weren't very happy.
I don't know about HI practices, but in my opinion, if the house is on a well, and you don't like the water pressure, you just adjust the settings on the pump control switch. I can see maybe on a municpal system, you might try that. But on a well, if you open all the taps (four sinks, one bathtub) at once, and let it run for ten to fifteen minutes, you'll have trouble in many, many areas. Not that the water isn't good, just that the recovery isn't that fast.
Having two children under the age of four, we had a pleasant 4 days waiting for the water to clear up enough to use again. And we told our agent that if that particular hi came into our house again, we would inflict serious bodily harm on him. If they had asked about the recovery rate on the well, we would have told them that it was ok, but not great; for example, you could run 3 loads of laundry through the washer one after another, but you'd better wait for a few hours for number 4. Not uncommon in the area.
Gee, TenPenny, bummer about that experience... From your point of view.
If I were the buyer of your home in that situation, AND assuming that you had NOT disclosed the low recovery rate elsewhere, I would be happier than a pig in sh*t if the HI had picked up on that issue.
As quick as I think I am about houses and such, I am always amazed at what comes up as a surprise each time I get a different house. Especially since each time is a different part of the country with different conditions that may assumed to be known by everyone but me.
Never would I buy a house without a complete inspection by one of the best I can find in the area. $400 spent on a half million or more investment is chump change relative to the information value gained by the buyer.
But then again, I would never sell a house without a similar inspection prior to the listing. I wanna know what the buyers HI is looking at. And get those issues to bed before they ever come up.
>>Don't be silly Bob, I think you're a little misguided but I believe you to be honest and trustworthy.
I stand by that one, Bob.
Funny, that wasn't the impression I got when you said: "If you were still practicing law, you'd have to sue yourself on behalf of your clients."
That was a joke Bob. Are you still mad that I managed to tie you in knots over the Readers Digest being in the same class as your Bible?
I'm a "little misguided" or nothing I have to say is of any value? (See msg 3 in this thread.)
Anything you have to say on religion, politics and construction has to be taken lightly with a little salt.
And you've mentioned experience a couple of times.
Are you saying that the "average HI" doesn't have any practical experience? Do you somehow have the idea that I don't have any building experience?
You are wrong on the second.
You may have "some" experience, the comment stands that most HI's don't have "enough" to have any real appreciation or understanding of the big picture.
Call me when you've built, or at the very least, framed a couple of hundred homes.
When you can walk into an unfinished basement and can recognize the style and quality of the carpenter who built the house, you will understand where I'm coming from.
In my experience and opinion, building experience only is no better preparation for doing home inspections than is book learning only.
I believe that both are necessary for doing home inspections.
That statement is only true if the components are measured in decades as opposed to hours.
I'm not saying that all HI's are good or experienced or are valuable. Far from it.
See Bob, we can agree on something.
How many home inspections have you been on?
I don't know, probably a couple of hundred. It's a hobby of mine and that's where it belongs. I'm an educator by destiny. I like to teach new homeowners to understand their homes so that they can better take care of them. I like to make sure they know what they're getting into and not be burned by hidden costs.
I also teach sex education. People soon learned not to screw with me.
You've made some pretty strong claims, Gabe. Can you support them?
Everytime.
That's how I make my living.
Boy, did I open up a can of worms. Thanks for the feedback people.
Normal...
Bait... So lets fish.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
>>That was a joke Bob.
Yeah, right. Classic example of getting caught in a bald faced contradiction and without the integrity or insight to acknowledge it.
>>Are you still mad that I managed to tie you in knots over the Readers Digest being in the same class as your Bible?
I never was mad because I never felt you said anything worthwhile or coherent in that thread.
Better get over yourself. Your intellectual accomplishments fall far short of what you seem to imagine.
And I'm not the least bit surprised that you somehow think framing houses gives one the "big picture."
It makes it really hard to believe that you've been on a couple hundred inspections - I just don't see how anyone with that kind of experience would think framing houses alone gives one the "big picture."
An important part of the process, but the big picture? Sorry guy, not even close.
>>I also teach sex education. People soon learned not to screw with me.
Oh wow! I am in complete and total awe! You are absolutely incredible!
An abbreviation just can't do that one credit:
I'm rolling on the floor, laughing my bloody arse off at that one, Gabe.
Absolutely amazing!
Thank you for the best laugh of the year.
I just can't believe how impressed I am at that.
Gosh-a-roonie, Gabe.
But don't tell me, you were just joking, right?
Watch out world, don't screw with Gabe, he's the man!
Whew!
Don't worry Gabe, we're not laughing at you. We're laughing because of you.
BTW, here it is the next morning and I'm _still_ laughing about that sex education line.
I even awoke with the song "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" going through my head.
I'm afraid that from now on, I'll be thinking of you as "BBLB:"
And it's bad, bad Leroy Brown
The baddest man in the whole damned town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog
Go get 'em. tiger!
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Bob:
You said:
>>At a meeting of the parties involved, I used the current code from that town as my authority for what "current building practices are" and also brought along a couple of older FHB's where there were some discussions of safety issues with handrails. <<
Is this typical, as far as having a meeting? In the inspections I have been involved with, the inspector came out for the inspection, and then delivered a written report after words and that was it. Of course, at the time of the inspection the current owner has every right to be present, and the prospective buyer would undoubtedly want to be there, but I would think that a meeting would be an extra charge. In the case of a new construction situation, the HI and the builder may never meet.
Thoughts?Matt
I dont know if its typical to have a meeting but when I bought my home the HI had a meeting with us the RE agent and the sellers and gave a briefing on the findings. They gave us a complete book along with pictures of theiefindings and the problems they found.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
yeah, it was pretty unusual to have that sort of meeting. It was a big expensive house and tempers were reportedly rising.
In those cases, I will do the extra work (go to the meeting, etc) as a way of creating good will (or avoiding bad will.)
Just like when a customer calls to complain about something they think I should have seen, I will almost always go out to recheck (unless it was clearly seen and reported on in the written report.)
Most the time complaints evaporate with just the attention paid.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
You got out of bed thinking,........
I did too . Some times our minds control the moment and thats for sure .
I sit on planning ad zonning between a doctor and a lawyer . I have no idea why they wanted me . This reminds me of being there . Im always taking the builders or the home ownners approach , but I confess that it is the builder I favor. They know it and they are standards people that push codes through , changing them every month. In their approach to professional ethics they are book driven with out looking up. Thats a good way to get through college. The only thing wrong with them is that they have pissed off every builder in town thats been at a meeting. Im in good shape with the builders , but the city council might be wishing they hadnt of picked me . The rest of my comittee try to function under the council as their right arm in pissing folks off so the council wont have to be involved and I see it .
The builders in this town just got the inspector and the engineer fired . One clean sweep and bingo , we dont have them anymore. Ive been asked if I would be interrested in the inspector position since Im sick I suppose and not working full time . I laughed because they probably would like turning me against my friends !
That was what was on my mind when you were stating codes to change a builders veiws and dragging out FHB mags. I can see you doing a thourough job of winning the conversation on merit , but dont get involed in a war with builders . They just dont give a dern. They are rough inside and out normally driving to get things done with a purpose in mind . They went after that city engineer with a vengence that never cooled for 8 months until he was finally fired. They preached about him to everyone that would listen including taking his name to church . He doesnt think he can work in this town because of the fund like drive they all made against him . Thats what he told me at lunch in a resturant .
The city inspector was a good one . He was just in the wrong place standing beside the engineer .
Tim Mooney
I kinda knew you couldn't leave it alone.
It must really burn your buns to run up against someone you can see through your thin skin and see brown.
Get over it Bobby boy, this atheist has you pegged. I can spar with you all day and never loose a beat, get angry or hate you. As a matter of fact, I can't hate anyone.
You see my friend, in my industry, unlike your law profession, we can't hate anyone. We can yell at each other all day long, but we have the gift of being able to start the day without any memory of yesterday's insults.
For tomorrow, your face may be the first one I see when I'm hanging on a lifeling with a failed rigging below me.
Too bad, you will never understand us. Your loss.
Gabe
>>You see my friend, in my industry, unlike your law profession, we can't hate anyone.
I see your understanding of the legal profession is screwed up as your understanding of the HI industry.
I think that statement is particularly ironic because you constantly express your hatred for the legal profession, but gosh no, you don't hate anyone.
No siree. Not Gabe.
>>It must really burn your buns to run up against someone you can see through your thin skin and see brown
Right Leroy. Just keep telling yourself that.
Oh, Gabe. I don't hate you. I feel sorry for you and your need to insult people who don't agree with your views.
And there is a good measure of contempt mixed in there, but hate?
Nope, wrong as usual, King Friday.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Now that I think of it, it's definitiely King Friday:
KING FRIDAY XIII
King of the Neighborhood of Make-Believe, King Friday XIII rules in regal fashion. But beneath his pompous exterior, he is a lonely ruler who continually uses his power to make himself feel important.
View Image
Good morning, Gabe.
I mean "Your highness"
Remember KF, we're not laughing at you. We're laughing because of you.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
No, wait a minute! How could I be so blind?
He's a Zen master!
For example, he tells me "You can't leave it [whatever the heck "it" is] alone.
Then he shows us the folly of not being able to leave a thought alone by not leaving that thought alone.
He tells us he can support every assertion and claim that he makes.
And then he illustrates the illusionary nature of the world by not supporting anything he says, teaching us a valuable lesson about self-deception.
He asserts what a tough guy he is and tells us people don't screw with him, and then he demonstrates the vapidness of such posturing letting himself get screwed with.
He knows thew sound of one hand clapping!
Hail to thee, King "Zen Master" Friday!
Like a true Zen master, you teach us the benefits of laughter!
(BTW, I confess, my conscience is bothering me. I lied when I said "we aren't laughing at you." Sorry 'bout that.)
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/23/2004 7:30:25 AM ET by Bob Walker
Isn't there a saying about what happens to a person who wrestles with a pig? Something about them both ending up all covered in filth?
>>what happens to a person who wrestles with a pig? Something about them both ending up all covered in filth?
You're absolutely right: that's a risk. A number of people have advised me via email to just walk away from the thread for that very reason. (A couple of people have said they think Gabe is scary. I don't agree with that view, myself.)
I find myself unable to take the advice to walk away, however.
When a person makes allegations about my abilities in my profession (and this is not the first time Gabe has tried to attack me in this way - a year or so ago he was taking shots at me as well) I feel compelled to defend myself and respond.
Gabe did make an interesting assertion about me having a thin skin.
That goes back to last year when he was taking shot at my competence as a lawyer. I let those get under my skin - I had some nasty stuff going on in my life at the time and I lost sight of the basic fact that when someone like Gabe makes that kind of allegation with no basis whatsoever, he is disclosing far more about himself and his own problems than about the person he is attacking.
Simply put, the reason Gabe thinks I have a thin skin is because he has repeatedly attacked me. Says more about him than me, I believe.
I refuse to cowed or angered by Gabe. This time I am keeping sight of how ridiculous his comments are and am responding to his gibes and sallies and attempted insults with humor and the dismissal they deserve.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
To Gabe and Bob,
I saw this posted in the 'shed.
http://www.treasurehiding.com/random/why.htm
Enjoy
Jon Blakemore
What's up with all this, anyway? Why does Gabe hate lawyers (and Bob W especially)?
I don't hate lawyers and I certainly don't hate Bob. As a matter of fact I love a good joke.
What I've been saying all along is that there's no real purpose for the average franchised home inspector in society.
They give a false sense of security to the home buyer.
For example..............
The home buyer looks at a home that interest him or her. They know that the asking price is 100,000.00.
The house is used so they want some degree of comfort that they won't be buying a money pit.
Simple problem..........simple solution.........hire a franchised home inspection firm who sends out Billy Bob to do a complete home inspection.
Problem is......................Billy Bob knows virtually nothing about house construction other than what he learned at the abc home building academy.
The home inspector hands them a computer printout of a 10 page report and they determine that the house is either a great deal or a money pit based on the information given them by Billy Bob.
This scenerio is played out everyday and that's criminal.
If you read Bob's previous posts, you will find one that he wrote explaining why he didn't get accredited as a code inspector as well. He said that he couldn't find the advantage to marketing himself as such.
It wasn't worth his time to learn something of value.
In other words, is all about money and nothing to do with providing the best possible service.
Any registered home builder in my Province, has to study the Ontario building code and pass a tests on codes prior to receiving his licence to build homes because of our home warrantee program.
He or she has to prove competence and demonstrate financial responsibility BEFORE they are allowed to build for others. If they screwup, they have to pay the repairs to the homeowners. No ifs and or buts. If they are insolvent, the home warrantee program kicks in and pays the repairs. So they are damn particular who is allowed to build and who isn't.
Gabe
Thats like my job;
I am an unneccsary evil, If I can get all concrete producer and contractor to do they job 100% right everytime, It would put me out of business. That why I tell contractors, screw up every once in a while. It job security to me.
nuthing but happy thought.
I disagree.
To produce a quality product requires a series of wheels and gears like a swiss watch. Each wheel has finely tuned teeth, all perfectly spaced and balanced. Some turn faster than others, some only make contact every hour and some make contact every minute. Take out 1 of those teeth from any wheel and the gear slips and the whole project is at risk. It may work on it's own for a while but eventually it will break down.
My work depends on a thousand eyes. I only have 2.
Gabe
>>What I've been saying all along is that there's no real purpose for the average franchised home inspector in society.
"Saying all along?" You've posted these 11 messages: .3, .19, .21, .29, .38, .72,. 73, .75, .82, .83, .97.
Your first mention of franchises was in message 72. Your 6th. You next, and only other mention of franchises. was in your last message, #97. 2 out of 11.
To try to pretend now that your focus has been on franchises is past ludicrous.
>>If you read Bob's previous posts, you will find one that he wrote explaining why he didn't get accredited as a code inspector as well. He said that he couldn't find the advantage to marketing himself as such.
>>It wasn't worth his time to learn something of value.
Gabe, there is a difference between learning something and taking the tests in it
>>In other words, is all about money and nothing to do with providing the best possible service.
Nope. It's all about providing the best possible service and not wasting my time on taking one group's tests which will have no direct value to my customers or to me.
As to your repeated references to "Billy Bob" and franchises and 10 page computer reports.
For the record, I do not operate as, under, or inconnection with a franchise and the reports I provide through my inspection service are written entirely by me and average 35-40 pages.
Any confusion in your mind between my work and your hypothetical "billy Bob" is strictly from your lack of understanding.
>>I don't hate lawyers and I certainly don't hate Bob
Funny how several people have gotten that impression.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
For the record, I do not operate as, under, or inconnection with a franchise
Don't tell me you're not even a member of ASHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gabe
>>>>For the record, I do not operate as, under, or inconnection with a franchise
>>Don't tell me you're not even a member of ASHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASHI is the American Society of Home Inspectors. It is a trade association, not a franchise operation.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Sorry for having confused you with so many words.
Are you or are you not a member of ASHI?
Gabe
>>Sorry for having confused you with so many words.
Yeah, I really got confused when you equated my lack affiliation with any franchises with the issue of wether I belong to a particular trade association.
There aren't many people who don't understand the difference. Even with my already low opinion of your thought processes, this one took me by surprise.
I also got confused when you equate opinions with facts (and you're a serial offender there.)
I get confused when you say you support your opinions and statements but never do.
I get confused when you keep making statements about my experience and my skills when you have no basis
>>Are you or are you not a member of ASHI?
At this moment, no. I was. I did not renew my membership last time around because of certain changes made to the organization by the then board of directors. They have reportedly received a lot of resistance and are reconsidering those changes and if they do I will rejoin.
At this moment, no. I was. I did not renew my membership last time around because of certain changes made to the organization by the then board of directors. They have reportedly received a lot of resistance and are reconsidering those changes and if they do I will rejoin.
So you consider yourself superior than ASHI and unless they do like you say you won't become a member.
Well that's interesting.
And you call me arrogant................
Gabe
>>So you consider yourself superior than ASHI and unless they do like you say you won't become a member.
My reason for suspending my membership has nothing to do with my opinions about ASHI or "superiority", and I said absolutely nothing to suggest that I did.
ASHI made some business decisions with which I strongly disagree. Many ASHI members have expressed the same disagreement (as I noted) and the issue is being reconsidered.
>>And you call me arrogant.
Call you Arrogant? I have never called you arrogant. (I voice no opinion as to the applicability of that term* to you, this is a family forum, after all!)
But here's another chance to support one of your claims.
It's easy to do: Just use the FHB Breaktime search engine.
Go ahead, prove this claim of yours.
Or are you going to just launch another toatlly false accusation and once again demonstrate your arrog... ah, haughtiness.
-----------------------
*arrogant
Ar"ro*gant, a. [F. arrogant, L. arrogans, p. pr. of arrogare. See Arrogate.] 1. Making, or having the disposition to make, exorbitant claims of rank or estimation; giving one's self an undue degree of importance; assuming
Edited 1/24/2004 9:50:33 AM ET by Bob Walker
And these decisions would be...............................
Gabe
Gabe, please reread my last post: I added to it when you were responding.
It contains another challange to you to support another of your claims.
You have failed to support any specific factual claim yet that I have challanged you on.
>>And these decisions would be...............................
I've already said it, Twice in fact.
Business decisions.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
And those business decisions would be what exactly......................
The right to advertise the use of their code of ethics without paying dues to the association?
Stop dancing around and answer the question, counsellor.
Gabe
>>And those business decisions would be what exactly......................
>>The right to advertise the use of their code of ethics without paying dues to the association?
>>Stop dancing around and answer the question, counsellor.
I will not answer that question. It is no business of yours, nor does it have anything to do with this discussion. ASHI is a fine association, it has contributed much to the home inspection industry and I believe it likely to continue to do so.
I see no need to publicly criticize it, especially to you. That is because I have no respect for your ability to understand even the simplest of concepts, nor do I have faith that you would anything other than twist or misrepresent my words, as you have repeatedly done in this thread.
Shall I put together a list of the questions I have asked you in this thread that you have not just "danced around", but have point blank ignored?
There is nothing unethical, illegal or unseemly about my stating that I follow the ASHI Standards of Practice or Code of Ethics.
And your concept of what constitutes "advertising" is as faulty as your concept of what a franchise is, what an opinion is, and what constitutes supporting your opinions, and so many other assertions you have put forth here.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
You don't like it when you're backed into a corner with your own words, do you?
Seems as though I've got you so worked up that you're posting to yourself.
Maybe you should relax for a bit and breathe into a paper bag or something.
Fact is you can't defend a profession that doesn't exist. You may be a graduate of the acme school of home inspectors but because of your lack of experience, you're only as good as your course material and unfortunately............. it may have been writen by the Marx brothers and you'll never know.
The more I research these HI associations and franshises the more I believe they are a parasite to the housing industry.
They see a dollar in a huge market and the race is on for a cut of the pie.
There will always be those that are honorable, honest and with the experience to deliver a product but these individuals are lost in a swamp of greed.
Gabe
>>You don't like it when you're backed into a corner with your own words, do you?
And where has that occurred?
Are you now claiming that because I won't answer a question that is totally irrelevant to the discussion you have somehow "backed me into a corner?"
>>The more I research these HI associations and franshises the more I believe they are a parasite to the housing industry.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Having read your many messages t, it is my conclusion that the quality of your knowledge, research and critical thinking capabilities, as displayed in this thread, undercut any authority for or persuasiveness of the opinions and beliefs you state here.
Edited 1/24/2004 6:33:20 PM ET by Bob Walker
Are you now claiming that because I won't answer a question that is totally irrelevant to the discussion you have somehow "backed me into a corner?"
Of course the question is relevant to the discussion. Your credibility hangs on it.
Right now you have so little that you can't afford to dodge any challenge.
The next time you look into your little dictionary, look up hypocrite. You judge members of your own fraternity in order to elevate your status.
List your "relevant" education and prior experience to qualify you as a home inspector and then I'll list mine to justify my ability to judge yours.
Gabe
>>Are you now claiming that because I won't answer a question that is totally irrelevant to the discussion you have somehow "backed me into a corner?"
>>Of course the question is relevant to the discussion. Your credibility hangs on it.
The question is why I choose to let my ASHI membership lapse.
I did, in fact, answer the question, just not to the degree that you would like but have no right to.
But I'm glad you raised the qusetion of dodging questions.
Here a few you have dodged in this thread:
In msg 38979.30 I noted that you had made a number of assertions regarding home inspectors, home inspections and me: "You've made some pretty strong claims, Gabe. Can you support them?"
Your response: "Everytime."
You have offered nothing other than opinion and innuendos as "support."
In msg 38979.74 I denied all of the assertions you put forth in msg 38979.72 with one exception.
You have failed to provide any support for those assertions.
In msg 38979.112 you claimed I called you arrogant:
In msg .113 I denied that assertion and challenged you to prove it.
You haven’t done so.
There are many more instances in this thread where you have ignored questions and challenges to support your unfounded assertions and accusations.
You are the last of all people in any sort of position to raise the issue of credibility .
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
>>List your "relevant" education and prior experience to qualify you as a home inspector and then I'll list mine to justify my ability to judge yours
Gabe you don't have to list your "qualifications."
You have amply demonstrated them: equating franchises with trade associations; misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I have said; making personal attacks and broad sweeping over-generalizations, such as you description of the regulation of the HI industry; making baseless assertions and failing to provide any support for them when challenged on them.
I am not quite so hapless as to provide any further information for your mean spirited and ugly misrepresentations and misinterpretations and petty libels.
And I believe I have more established my credentials here on technical issues in the substantive areas of BT.
This is yet another area where you have failed to support your assertions - I have answered and discussed a range of technical areas and subjects here over the years, all of which are open to you to find anything to contradict or disprove or refute.
Yet another example of your inability to support your assertions.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Ask me a direct question and I will answer it. Don't be yourself and write a 2000 word essay and then call it a question.
You can dance all night but you can't dodge the question. Why possible business decision could possibly justify you're being above paying your dues to ASHI?
Is it because you're too cheap?
Is it because they don't want you?
Is it because they have higher standards than you?
Is it because you have higher standards than they do?
Is it because you don't like the open membership to anyone who has the entry fee?
Is it because you have had too many complaints lodged against you and they want you to do some kind of retest?
Truth is you have no guts when you're against the boards.
Gabe
I know this guy who is going to school to be a HI. In fact his job is paying for. This guy cant put 2 pieces of wood together but He can sure quote the code. I was talking about a existing confdition inna house and this guy starts quoteing the code. I tried to explain to him about the code only applying to new construction or upgrades but if the HO buys the house like that and doesnt upgrade then He has no obligation to upgrade it. But this guys starts quoting the code again. i told him to talk to me after he finished his school and got some common since.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
I know this guy who is a licensed heating contractor. He installs furnaces.
He told me the other day that carbon soot in the heat exchanger causes high levels of CO in the flue gases.
I see countless central A/C installations where the A/C constractors do the wiring and do it incorrectly.
I know a contractor who does beautiful work. He didn't know code on handrails until I showed it to him.
Bottom line is that anecdotal evidence about a single person or a few in any trade does not demonstrate anything about the trade or the people in general in the trade.
I know a guy who posts a lot of arguments at Breaktime who doesn't know the basic rules of logic, especially the fallacy of converse accident.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Bob and Gabe,
My wife is from a family of 8 siblings, 7 are women. You two go at it the same as those women do. Man talk about stamina! DanT
The way I look at it is that Gabe has repeatedly made baseless and inaccurate accusations and libels and, for the most part, I have merely defended myself.
Of course, I have gone beyond that at times.
For example, Gabe said at one point:
>>I also teach sex education. People soon learned not to screw with me.
Now, if just about anyone else here had said that, I'd have been excruciatingly embarrassed for them and would not have said anything.
I confess that I have taken great and public delight in the fact that Gabe could expose himself so thoroughly. I admit it is less than charitable of me to delight in his self-inflicted humiliation.
But remember, Gabe is a guy who has repeatedly attacked me and my competence and my chosen professions with absolutely no basis.
If you think opposing that sort of behavior of Gabe's is "womanly" than I admit to being open to my feminine side.
I think of it as self-defense, plain and simple, and as the kind of thing a guy should do.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I think of it as self-defense, plain and simple, and as the kind of thing a guy should do.
If it's self defense, why have you gone out of your way and posted an extra 10 times to insult me?
I guess that kinda proves that I don't hate you as much as you hate me.
Love you as always,
Gabe
Something I should point out to our loyal readers is that I don't have a thing against ASHI in particular, truth is, I have no use for MOST associations that claims to be "Not for Profit".
Bob may be right in not continuing his membership with this "Association". When he indicated that he no longer belonged I was naturally curious as to the why part and tried to goat him into revealing his reasons.
I have found that most of these so called not for profit associations have a balloning budget that must be fed.
The start off by recruiting members with fancy brochures and promises of increased income if you join. They always start off by having low rates for membership and once they have your signature, they use it for their personal adgendas.
They lobby the governments, claiming to represent 1000's of members and being the voice of the industry.
Eventually, you find clauses in pre-qualifications to do work that state you must be a member of this association in order for you to bid on this work.
THEN the rates start to go up and you find yourself in a trap of sorts.
NOT FOR PROFIT BS.
Gabe
Gabe - how about some answers?
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I don't know, Gabe might have a point.
I just checked the ASHI site and looked at the link for the 2004 ASHI Proficieny test program. You have to be a member to get the whole details, but looking at what materials that you have to order to take the test I seriously bought that you could qualify. <WINK, WINK>
http://www.ashi-hla.org/
But don't worry, Gabe could not either.
Ya know, gabe, you really give the impression of being a moron. We all know you hate Bob, why not just give it a rest?
Ya know, gabe, you really give the impression of being a moron. We all know you hate Bob, why not just give it a rest?
Now that's probably one of the most ignorant statements posted on this thread todate.
Thank you for the insight into your character.
Gabe
Does anybody out there have a fire extinguisher. I think class F would work.
Jon
I dunno; many of your comments are pretty off the wall. And I didn't say you WERE anything; I said you gave the impression of something; after all, you've said pretty much all lawyers and all home inspectors are incompetent/stupid/crooked/useless.
you've said pretty much all lawyers and all home inspectors are incompetent/stupid/crooked/useless.
That would be a lie.
You may add that to your resume.
Gabe
"you've said pretty much all lawyers and all home inspectors are incompetent/stupid/crooked/useless."
Gabe,
Did Cario really say that you said that? Don't really feel like re-reading the thread for that one. I have to say that there are good ones, ( in both fields) and many who go in [to the fields] 'cause they see it as a way to earn a buck without much work, and those are the ones who make it look bad for the true "pro's".
IMO, in HI, and lawyering, lot's of people enter those fields for the money, not because they have a natural talent for it. Albeit, the potential for financial reward is greater in being a bad lawyer......But you have to pass the Bar Exam, though not necessarily go to law school for that one.
Jon
Edited 1/25/2004 11:42:14 AM ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 1/25/2004 11:44:21 AM ET by WorkshopJon
Jon,
At this point, it doesn't matter anymore what Cairo said. He's not worth the typing time.
Regarding lawyers being argued in the same breath as home inspectors is also a waste of typing time.
They're as different as night and day.
One is an old and true profession and the other is neither.
The only time these two groups come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
Gabe
>>The only time these two groups come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
I'm curious Gabe. Do you really think that or is it intended to be a joke?
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
The only time these two groups come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
I'm curious Gabe. Do you really think that or is it intended to be a joke?
What is it this time Bob?
Please tell me what you find offensive about that line.
Gabe
First, I'm awaiting your answers to my questions in msg 38979.132
Second: Gabe said: >>The only time these two groups [lawyers and home inspectors] come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
I asked: >>I'm curious Gabe. Do you really think that or is it intended to be a joke?
Gabe responded: >>What is it this time Bob?
What is it? Exactly what it purports to be: a question. Nothing more or nothing less.
Are you going to answer?
>>Please tell me what you find offensive about that line.
I'll be happy to discuss it if you tell me thatyou believe that statement to be true.
If you tell me, it's a joke, then I won't bother responding.
Or are you going to ignore it as uyou do just about every other question?
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/25/2004 2:11:41 PM ET by Bob Walker
You sure are one long winded SOB.
No it's not a joke.
Of the 50 questions or challenges that you have written, which one has your shorts in a knot that you want me to answer first?
Gabe
>>You sure are one long winded SOB.
Sometimes, yep. Not every idea can be expressed as pungently as others.
>>No it's not a joke.
OK.
>>Of the 50 questions or challenges that you have written, which one has your shorts in a knot that you want me to answer first?
My shorts in a knot? Nope. 50? Is it that many? It might well be, but I don't really think so. I guess it might seem that way because I have asked several times and you have failed to answer for some reason.
But heck, why don't we start with the questions I referred to in the very first line of my last message. You know, the one that was so long winded? I put it right up front there so you wouldn't miss it, but maybe you forgot it by the time you got to the end of that long winded, 146 word message.
Those questions were last asked in msg 38979.132.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I'm not going to search out your drivel.
If you can't type out a simple question, I won't waste my time trying to figure out which question you want me to answer.
You think that's all we have to do is scribe through all your 2000 word essays.
Gabe
>>I'm not going to search out your drivel.
You can't support any of the opinions and assertions you make.
I have asked several simple questions several times.
Twist and turn and run and hide. Attempt groundless, mean spirited attacks. Spit out baseless allegations.
That is just about all you do.
You guys are both single right? I mean I could get this type of thought provoking argument by walking into my living room and mentioning how lousy the meal was. DanT
What so hard about asking a question in a post instead of making a contest out of it?
I've said it more often than I care to repeat............ask your damn question and I will answer it.
Gabe
Gabe You've made all sorts of claims and assertions. I've asked you to support them. You've dodged. I've asked again. You've ducked. I've asked, you've run.
You've convincingly demonstrated who you are and what you are made of. Anyone reading this thread will havce no questions whatsover.
I'm through.
_________________
_____
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Edited 1/25/2004 5:58:14 PM ET by Bob Walker
In msg 38979.30 I noted that you had made a number of assertions regarding home inspectors, home inspections and me: "You've made some pretty strong claims, Gabe. Can you support them?"
I don’t have to……………you already have.
PA has a "licensing" law, but it is next to useless, IMHO, and it's easy to get the ticket there.
As pointed out there are a lot of "inspectors" who don't provide much value, in large part because it looks like an easy biz to get into. And the math looks good (buckle up:) 3 x $250 x (let's take a month's vacation) 48 = $XYZ. Whoa momma!
BTW: "certified" doesn't mean anything in the HI field. There are a couple of groups that sell "certification" with absolutely no criteria or qualifications required.
I'm not saying that all HI's are good or experienced or are valuable. Far from it. I have noted the contrary in this forum a number of times. There are a lot of people who think it's going to be easy money and all they have to do is (maybe) take a one week course and they can do the job. (And the one week course offered by many of the franchise operations mainly deal with marketing)
One problem with the home inspection industry is that it is still primarily made up of "mom-pop" sized businesses, and there is constant downward price pressures.
Another issue with newcomers is that, through inexperience, they often muddy the waters because of their inexperience, including getting builders ticked at HI's in general.
And we'll leave aside the issue of mistakes made by new comers and the possible consequences of those mistakes. A thorny issue in and of itself.
there are bad inspectors who just screw things up -
And, of course, sometimes HIs screw up.
>>To be an average HI in many jurisdictions, all that's required is the gall to call yourself one.
That's right
What exactly did you want me to add to your comments about the sorry state of the HI industry Bobby?
DF
Gabe J
Did anyone else feel a gust of hot air blowing through here?
I though I'd shut the door!
You don't suppose ....
Naw, even he would understnd "I am through." 38979.161
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wouldn't he?
Well, whatever it was, it sure wasn't important.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
You know Bob, I have to say that for someone who says that he's through you still have trouble answering a posters question without somehow finding a way to throw an insult or two my way.
This clearly demonstrates your arrogance and lack of class.
You were beaten to a pulp with your own words you DF and you know it.
Gabe
Gee Gabe, did you think I was talking about you?
Throw an insult your way? Gosh, Gabe, I'm really sorry.
You have shown us a lot of things about yourself, but up until now I didn't realize you also have such a thin skin.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Apology accepted.
Now reduce the size of your posts. You spend tooooo much time talking and not enough time listening and thats' why you fail to understand and learn.
Gabe
Too blind to see sarcasm, too.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Hey Bob, good to see ya.
"Good to see you, too."
Why you talkin' to yourself?
"No one else left in this thread worth talking too, I guess."
Let me ask you a question. You said to Gabe "Too blind to see sarcasm, too."
Did you rally expect him to understand that you were screwing around with him again?
The guy who said: "I also teach sex education. People learned not to screw with me" and then who impotently sat there while you screwed with him for the rest of the thread?
You didn't really expect old King Friday to realize he was getting screwed around with again did you?
"Good point."
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Bob,
I know you know there was another guy around here who posted to himself quite often. Time to let this one die.
Jon
you're right
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Hey Bob, I got a good laugh from this one,
"Did anyone else feel a gust of hot air blowing through here?"
You timing was something else, posting that right after you had written two or three loooong posts. I had to look at the item you were replying to to get in context.
;)
While I generally disagree vehemently with you on politics and find some of your verbal choices less than uh, enjoyable, I respect your positions in professinal things like this htread.
I have to chip in and agree with both of you ( You and Gabe, not you and Bob Walker) about the contractor vs inspector thing.
[Maybe I can run for office if I get this one across right]
Anyways, I find that when I read inspection reports from different people on the same house, one guy invariably finds things someone else misses, no matter which they are. Regardless of background, contractor or inspection school, the more experience one has, the better served the HO client will be. For instance, My background will pick up more practical things and I might say that such and such is less than 'just right' for Goldilocks but that it is nothing much to worry about. OTOH, I am weak in the plumbingand HVAC area of knowledge and would probably benefit from some schoolong in what to look for. I would then temper it by interviewing a few installers and more importantly, repairmen.
You pointed out that remo guys do better in this field than builders. I heartily agree on that. Half my knowledge comes from seeing what went wrong and learning by understanding and analysing the failures I find. ( which is why I hate seeing sheet rock screws in wall cabinets) I learn from other peoples mistakes. Many of those are hidden in ways and places that a non-invasive HI cannot hope to discover.
Something e;lse that I don't think has been brought into this conversation ( maybe I missed it when I managed to run out of time and skipped a hundred posts or so) is this;
Regional methods and proceedures vary so much across the country that a HI's training needs to be localized. What is right in one part of the country can be absolutely wrong in another, depending on climate, soils, heating fuels available etc.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
This would make a good one for MTVs Celebrity Deathmatch!
Piffen, thanks for the observations, there has been a range of interesting information in the thread.
A few folks have pointed out to me that I have gone over the line in some aspects, though, for which I apologize to one and all, including Gabe.
>>Regional methods and proceedures vary so much across the country that a HI's training needs to be localized. What is right in one part of the country can be absolutely wrong in another, depending on climate, soils, heating fuels available etc.
Good point, thanks for pointing that out.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
This is the most civilized [flame war] debate on this topic I have ever seen. Whether it helps anyone interested in the merits of Home Inspectors, I don't know.
Gabe has some point about real contractors would be the best judges of a house's condition. Bob has a point about education and knowledge of codes being important. Many examples have been suggested that the HI business is a quick buck scheme. Seeing that most referrals come from real estate agents, it is easy to see a certain bias at work. "The HI noted lots of cosmetic defects (cracks in the plaster, faded paint, etc.) but didn't notice under-sized joists and rafters." Real estate agents are only concerned with the sale and the surface condition. My advice then would be for the prospective buyer to find a Home Inspector on his own and not choose one reccomended by the agent.
Now an ethical question for Bob:You mentioned that the report is confidential and is only given to the buyer. And it is given to the seller only if the buyer authorizes it. Now you do your inspection and you discover that the CO levels are way too high. The seller is still living in the house. The buyer specifically does not want the results of the inspection to be revealed to the seller. Do you have the right to inform the seller that he is in danger?
For Gabe:Go to this site and take the free test. If you pass, you are qualified to be a HI whether you like it or not:
http://www.nachi.org/aboutexam.htm
~Peter
Peter -
Good question. It has been discussed on the various HI forums.
My view, and that of the vast majority of HI's I have discussed it with, is that a dangerous condition should be disclosed to he seller.
The over-riding view is that the confidentiality "requirement" is an ethical consideration that is not applicable where there is a significant safety hazard.
For me and most other HI's, the bottom line is that a trade association ethical consideration is just that, a consideration, not a rule to be followed blindly, and that other factors always must also be considered.
And the practical reality is that almost all clients waive the confidentiality requirement. I have only had 2 clients not it waive over the years - one was a divorce situation and my client didn't want to take the chance that her then soon to be ex-husband would learn anything about the house; the other was where the sellers were family member administrators of an estate who were fighting with each other and the client wanted to specifically pre-approve any discussions with them because of the atmosphere of acrimony.
A related question which has also been discussed in HI circles is whether an HI should take any action beyond simply warning a home owner when a significantly dangerous situation is found.
My own view, and there are many who do not share it, is that I will disable a component or system if, in my opinion, it presents an immediate, significant hazard to safety.
For your CO example, I am a Carbon Monoxide Analyst per the Building Performance Institute's Protocol, and under that organization I have a duty to "disable" combustion appliances when certain specific dangerous conditions exist.
On average, I "disable" 3-5 furnaces every year, and the same for water heaters. (In this context, "disabling" means simply to turn them off.)
In the past couple of months, I have had two furnaces with extremely high levels of CO in the flue gases, but with no significant back drafting or CO levels in the air in the house. The flue gas levels were, per the BPI protocol, such that I should have turned the furnaces off.
In both cases the home owner was home and the outdoor temps were very low. Immediately upon discovering the CO situations, I informed (and showed) the home owners the problem, and told them I would be turning the furnaces off at the end of the inspection and that they should immediately call out a heating contractor. In both cases, a heating contractor arrived before the end of the inspection.
There have been a few times where I found dangerous levels in a furnace flue gases in a vacant house during very cold weather where there was no spillage into the house air where I haven't disabled the furnace, but have posted warnings on each entry to the home and immediately informed the listing agent (I rarely know who the seller is) by phone and followup fax.
I have disabled a few electrical systems over the years. I have called various utilities from time to time, such as where I see a broken neutral on the service lines.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
As to the NACHI test: it is considered a joke by an overwhelming majority of home inspectors who have discussed it on the various HI forums. The PA law is so vapid that NACHI was created specifically to provide easy entry into that business in that state."
Nothing would be established were Gabe to pass it. It would be very telling, of course, were he not to, but I doubt that would happen.
I believe that the PA situation does not represent the situation nationwide, although there might be some who would assert that, of course. http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/hasty.php
>>Gabe has some point about real contractors would be the best judges of a house's condition
What do you mean by "real contractors?"
People who are currently working as a contractor? General contractors? Framers? Trim carpenters? HVAC contractors? Wall paper hangers?
General contractors who are skilled at marshalling schedules but who rely on sub-contractors for the technical details?
In my opinion the absolute best home inspection would involve (i) individual inspections by a contractor in each of the substantive fields: a structural engineer, a framer, an electrician, a plumber, an HVAC person, a roofer, an appliance service tech, a flooring contractor, a mason; a chimney inspector, etc.; and (ii) coordination of those experts.
Not coordination by just any general contractor, but a generalist who has been trained both in the integration of the many systems in a house and in the inspection process itself. There is a lot to know about the process that is not immediately obvious to all contractors.
No one, of course, would pay the fees involved in such a production.
Just as no one would get a physical health examination by going to specialists in each of the health specialities.
In my experience, people who have worked as repair and restoration contractors are among the best home inspectors because of the range and depth of experience they bring to the job.
Even for them, however, there are usually significant areas they have to learn about. HVAC, electrical, and plumbing for example. Many (and likely most) "real contractors" use sub-contractors for those specialities and I believe most general contractors have limited knowledge of specifics in those fields and need additional training to properly inspect those systems.
>>Real estate agents are only concerned with the sale and the surface condition of the home. My advice then would be for the prospective buyer to find a Home Inspector on his own and not choose one recommended by the agent.
I agree that one should use care in choosing an HI (just as one should use care in choosing anyone to do work for them, including concrete contractors), but will note that, in my area, in my experience, the majority of real estate agents are _not_ only concerned with the sale and the surface condition of the home.
They are human, of course, and subject to the vagaries which we are all subject to, but most want a thorough inspection both because they want that for their clients and they want to protect themselves.
I would note that I have seen a number of cases where "real contractors" have done an inspection and their own biases have skewed the inspection results.
They will often try to inappropriately apply current standards and codes to older buildings; and it is not uncommon for them to over-emphasize the findings in their particular fields of specialization and miss stuff in other fields.
Also, contractors often are not trained to think about the interaction of the various systems in a house.
One of the worst inspectors in my area is an ex-general contractor who routinely makes mountains out of mole-hills, who routinely exaggerates the importance of conditions which he finds, and who routinely does multiple inspections for his clients.
I have seen enough of his reports and inspected a number of houses after he has and I believe that he does not serve his client's best needs.
I would not make the mistake, however, of hastily generalizing from his example and conclude that it establishes some sort of general principle about the suitability of general contractors in general as home inspectors.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
>>The only time these two groups [lawyers and home inspectors] come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
OK, we have finally determined that Gabe won't turn around and claim this was a joke.
This is a baseless assertion, with no ground to support it.
I know a number of home inspectors who get referrals from lawyers.
I personally get a fair number of referrals from lawyers for their clients, recommending me for home inspections. I have had several lawyers call me to inspect their own and their familiy member's houses.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
>>The only time these two groups [lawyers and home inspectors] come into contact with one another is when a home owner wants to sue the home inspector for some perceived dis-service.
OK, we have finally determined that Gabe won't turn around and claim this was a joke.
This is a baseless assertion, with no ground to support it.
I know a number of home inspectors who get referrals from lawyers.
AND I'm sure that they and you get referrals from all kinds of individuals.
Now how many lawsuits are filed every year involving Home Inspectors?
Why is insurance so expensive for HI's? Maybe it's the number of claims they have to settle?
To use your argument..........
I've done work for a Supreme Court Justice. Does that mean that the Supreme Court of Canada and I work together? Does that mean that the Supreme Court of Canada and contractors are in the same industry? Does that mean that the Supreme Court of Canada refers people to me for work?
That would be a dumb assertion..........oh ya..........It's only dumb when I do it.
Of course not..................It was just one individual who hired a contractor to do some work and nothing else.
Now show me where any American Law Society recommended that every home buyer must use a Home Inspection Service before buying a house.
Gabe
Yea Gabe I can definately understand your point. When I bought my house the HI came out did a fairly decent job. They found some interesting things and gave me my realtor and the sellers a briefing at the same time about their findings. They pointed out the the items which needed repair or correction or even a professional opinion on.
My compadre Steve is selling his house. Some Yahoo came out and found some nonsensical items. This yahoo didnt know the difference between existing and new construction. Meaning he pinged steve on items that were required for new construction not existing. Now Steve is running around like a crazy man updating his electrical system (which for the most part was good for 50 y.o. existing wiring), writing letters explaning explaining that the water spot they found in the attic was old and his roof was replaced prior to him buying the house and the water spot was from the old roof. Now the heavy hitter was..... his hose bib was stuck..Yea that was worth the 200-300 bucks the buyer paid....
BTW I told Steve forget the repairs just give the buyers 2K credit from escrow to get these items repaired and be done with it......
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
>>This yahoo didnt know the difference between existing and new construction. Meaning he pinged steve on items that were required for new construction not existing.
What do you mean by "pinged?" Can you give us the exact language in the report?
It is not unusual for a home inspector to merely note something is an older technology or built in accordance with an older standard, but have the buyer ask the seller for it to be corrected, without any suggestion by the HI that it is the sellers responsibility*.
A common example is GFIs. In an older house without GFIs I explain their purpose and function, explain that they weren't required at the time the house was built, mention their relative low cost, and suggest that the buyer consider upgrading when he gets moved in.
I have had buyers use that sort of thing and then, on their own initiative, ask the seller to install them.
(Note that practices vary from state to state and even city to city on some of these issues.)
And, of course, sometimes HIs screw up.
Without knowing the actual language in the report, we can't really tell which it was.
----------------
* FWIW, I rarely give an opinion as to who is responsible for correcting problems found. I don't know the deal: the contract, the prior negotiations, the parties, etc, so I am not in any position to make such a recommendation.
I will sometimes note local practice: "it is common around here for the seller to pay for termite treatment or radon mitigation."
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
BTW, while this might vary by location, I believe that is is common practice that the buyer does now show the report to the seller.
If I was selling a house and there was a continguency for an inspection by the buyer I would require that they provide a full copy if they wanted to use that inspection for "fixing" the house or reducing the price.
Bill,
Copy to the seller? As between the buyer and the seller, that's up to them.
Some agents advise their sellers against getting the full report.
Their concern is that the full report may reveal "disclosable conditions which the particular buyer doesn't bother to bring up subsequent to the inspection, but if the deal falls through, the seller then could have additional disclosures to add to the existing disclosure statement.
The general practice in my area is if the buyer wants the seller to fix something or adjust the price or whatever, the buyer's agent prepares an written request to which they often attach a copy of the relevant pages from the report.
Also, There are some HI's who resist having a full copy go to the seller. I have heard stories were the original deal has fallen through, the seller then gave copies to subsequent potential buyers who in turn have tried to claim against the HI for the report originally prepared at some point in the past for the first buyer.
And sometimes the seller wants talk or argue about stuff in the report that the buyer doesn't give a hoot about, and the HI ends up burning non-billable time.
I don't know how practices on this vary, but as an HI I'm working for the buyer. I also follow the ASHI Standards of Practice and Code of Ethics which provide that the report is to be considered confidential unless the client consents to disclosure.
I (and I believe most HIs) routinely have my client choose to consent to disclosure when they sign the contract, explaining that granting authorization can help facilitate repairs.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I agree with you that hiring a HI is a lot like buying a pig in a poke. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
It's not a trade like a plumber, electrician or a carpenter, where you have a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship.
To be an average HI in many jurisdictions, all that's required is the gall to call yourself one.
Some jurisdictions require some form of accreditation but even that isn't much. You can become an accredited home inspector by taking a basic home study course.
Check out the insurance rates for HIs and you will get a hint of the risk factor in incompetence.
BTW after spending the past 2 weeks in minus 30 to 45 celcius snow squalls, I kinda feel a little envy towards you.
Gabe
>>I agree with you that hiring a HI is a lot like buying a pig in a poke. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
I suppose some people might just hire whoever's name they stumble across. Others do some research and make informed decisions.
>>It's not a trade like a plumber, electrician or a carpenter, where you have a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship.
In some places. Hardly in all.
And having served an approenticeship or getting licensed in a trade is no quarantee of competence, either.
>>To be an average HI in many jurisdictions, all that's required is the gall to call yourself one.
That's right, and I have been working for several years to correct that in the state I live in.
>>Some jurisdictions require some form of accreditation but even that isn't much. You can become an accredited home inspector by taking a basic home study course.
There are a number of states that have enacted a number of variations of licensing laws of various difficulty and complexity and with varying requirements.
To say that it is simply a matter of "taking a basic home study course" is vastly oversimplified and far short of the facts in most jurisdictions which have enacted those law.
In my opinion, such a sweepingly inaccurate over-generalization is useless in this discussion, or any, discussion of the home inspection industry.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
uirements.
Gabe,
Is English your second language?
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Is English your second language?
Yes..................what's your excuse?
Gabe
I assume the Ontario home warranty program is better than the Atlantic Home Warranty program. As far as I can tell, it's a marketing scheme on the part of the builders to make the homeowner feel better.
As far as builder's insolvency goes, with the Atlantic plan, if the builder isn't finished your house when he goes under, you're SOL. Have a nice day. So, explain to me the value of that? It's just BS on the part of the builders. People think it's a great thing, until they have to use it.
Yes you're right about the two plans being different. As a matter of fact, we're taking night and day.
The Atlantic Plan is a make up feel good plan dreamed up by a contractor group to try an sell performance insurance to home owners.
The Ontario Plan is legislated and is strickly enforced. It is illegal for a non-registered builder to build or sell a house that is not registered in the plan. The fines can be as high as 100,000 dollars and/or jail time.
No plan that I'm aware of will protect fully the home owner from a contractor going bust but at the same time the home buyer should never pay for work not done as well. In other words, the only way that you would be hurt under the Ontario plan would be if you paid for the house in advance of it being built and the contractor took off with your money or declared bankruptcy.
Not only is the coverage better here but the cost is also lower in Ontario for our warranty than the so called Platinum Atlantic plan.
Hope that answers your questions
Gabe
In the start of the thread you said you werent wild about part timers and contractors being inspectors . One that the part timers didnt make a living doing it and would effect the prices being charged. Bob , someone has to pay the bills while we learn anything . You said a builder would be pushing codes and that business wasnt about codes and you gave an example . Now you are saying that HI can have something to do with new construction because they can point out code violations that the city is not enforcing. Make up your mind which side of the fence you are on my friend . We have a code book we follow and the inspector has one too. Some inspectors may be lax on somethings and contractors learn them and the inspectors learn the workers . Its a system thats been working a very long time right or wrong . One things for sure , its their ball game .
Tim Mooney
Tim,
I guess I didn't make myself clear.
As a private home inspector, I don't have any power to _enforce_ code.
Also, I don't do a "code inspection" because of the range of jurisdictions in which I inspect and the range of ages of the houses I inspect. New housing is less than 5% of what I inspect.
A small example - the spacing requirement between stair railings has changed a number of times over the years, and those changes have been adopted at different times in the different jurisdictions, making it virtually impossible to know which requirement was applicable at the time any given house was built (or remodeled.)
I still use code to _inform_ my inspections, however.
So, in the 2x6 handrail example, I orally informed the client that current building standards usually prohibit using a 2x6 as the hand rail because such a railing is not very graspable and provides a lower degree of safety than railings which are currently used in standard practices. In the written report, I described the railing as a "non-standard component used ..., which does not comply with current building practices and current concerns for safety" (or something like that.)
I also suggested that the buyer might want to consider adding a graspable railing or changing the existing railing for an additional margin of safety.
That client decided that, for him, it was a significant enough deficiency that he wanted the builder to change it.
The builder's initial response was "we've always done it that way and there's nothing wrong with it."
At a meeting of the parties involved, I used the current code from that town as my authority for what "current building practices are" and also brought along a couple of older FHB's where there were some discussions of safety issues with handrails.
I mentioned that, from a liability point of view, my job was to point out risks to my client, and suggested the builder might wish to consider his own potential exposure if someone were to be hurt in a fall down the stairs. (The fact that buyer was a Dr helped highlight the potential costs and issues.)
Later, the builder told me that he had changed his practice for the reasons given.
On the part-timer issue. Yeah, you're right. I did acknowledge up front that my concern about part-timers was based in large part on self-interest.
One problem with the home inspection industry is that it is still primarily made up of "mom-pop" sized businesses, and there is constant downward price pressures.
As small business owner, with the margins and amounts involved I simply cannot afford to hire someone and train him on my dime. There just aren't enough $ floating around in the system to afford that.
I can't say for sure, but based on my own experience when I was getting started I'm thinking that if I hired a new comer to the business, I'd want that person to go along with me for at least 50 or inspections before letting him or her start to run the inspection, and I'd probably want a significant number of supervised inspections after that.
Those are, of course, very rough figures and I'm sure each situation would be different.
This is a problem with no easy solution to the problem of getting new people into the business.
If new comers don't significantly undercut current rates in my market, fine.
Current rates in my area for post WWII houses less than 2,000 sq feet range between about $200 to $240 by the established inspectors around here.
Every year 10 or so new guys show up, charging typically $150 to $175, and I've seen them go much lower than that. (One guy a bit south of me was doing them for free for the first inspection done for any particular agent!)
That is capitalism, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Another issue with newcomers is that, through inexperience, they often muddy the waters because of their inexperience, including getting builders ticked at HI's in general.
And we'll leave aside the issue of mistakes made by new comers and the possible consequences of those mistakes. A thorny issue in and of itself.
-----------------------
BTW, one problem with inspections by active tradespeople is that they tend to think exclusively in terms of current code. "This main disconnect and panel and sub-panel in this 85 year old house don't meet code" was a announcement by an "electrician friend" brought along by a client on one inspection.
I merely asked if he knew when they had been installed, -the house would probably originally have had a 30 Amp 110 service, may a 60/220- and pointed out that without knowing the installation date, no determination of code compliance could be made.
And yes, the fact that the installation would have been different under current practices was pointed out, as was the fact that very few of the houses in that part of town would meet current standards.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Clark Howard does a syndicated Consumer Help radio show.
I have heard him recommend people use HI, but he says that for inspecting new homes that you should get a HI that is "cabo" certified. That is one that is up on codes.
While the show is national he is based in Atlanta where I have heard of number of reports of very busy city inspectors so that they often get a drive by or 45 second inspection.
And while I hear other recommend using HI on new construction he is the only one that I have heard recommend that they be code certifiied or even up on codes.
Bill
Good point. Personally, I haven't gotten the CABO certification because the number of new house inspections I do is very limited and I don't think it would give me any marketing advantage.
In my area it is pretty rare to find code violations (the handrails being one exception, the height of flues being the other - they frequently are terminated too low, per code, although the practical reality is that when I do draft tests (an add-on as part of a CO Analysis) or check for visual signs of improper drafting, the ones that are too low usually function fine - except when they are also fairly close (say within 4' or so) to the ridge.)
It is far more likely that an inspection of a new house is going to find improper function - it is amazing how many dishwashers leak the first time you run 'em - and how many waste vents never get the testing cap removed!.
Codes are prescriptive, they aren't performance based, so a lot of stuff never gets actually tried until the home inspection.
Oh, yeah, drop down stairs and kitchen cabinets mounted with drywall screws are pretty common, too!
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Actually 2 famous conservatives. William Safire wrote it, Spiro Agnew said it.
I really admire Safire, both for his writing style - he has a powerful command of the language - and for the way he constructs and supports his views. I don't often agree with his views (I sometimes do) but the disagreement arises from having different values, not because of use of faulty logic or inaccurate or incomplete facts.
William Buckley is another conservative writer whom I admire. I think he has "lost" some ground in the past few years and has adopted some positions which I suspect were adopted for purposes of pleasing the hard right, but he too is a powerful thinker and communicator.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
"Did you know that many underwriters in the secondary lending market require home inspections?"
Now new is that?
I have never heard of that until it was mentioned in this thread.
That is other than the FHA inspection, which for years they have pointed out is a minimum standard inspection and not condition inspection.
But, if I am not mistaken, that they never got that across to the public and have started requiring FHA inspections to also be a condition inspection.
I just bought a house and the only inspection required was a pest and termite. Of course, 85% of the house is >3' above grade, finished basement, etc. I didn't need the guy to come out and tell me we were good, but that's what I neede to get financing. Location: SE PA
Jon Blakemore
Appraisels have been done for me with my doors LOCKED. How is the lending institution going to know whether it has termites or not ? They often lend 90 percent of the value . Most people dont know a termite from an ant. You sir are an exception to the majarioty.
Tim Mooney
hey Tim
From all I've seen the appraisers really get horsed around. Both the banks and RE agents can make or break them. Kinda like HIs , only worse. Hard for a appraiser to do a fair and accurate job when they might not get anymore work from someone in the future. My understanding is the banks call most of the shots.
There is a type of appraisle that is called a "drive by" , no one goes inside. Of what value it is , I have know idea, but it does exist.
This whole thread kinda suxs. Lets change the subject to something more enlightning. How ya feeling these days? Good I hope . Kind of miss the discussion about dynamiting sloww wells. Not sure why that one is stuck in my mind.
I can only speak for here . Appraisors work for banks and are heavily protected by them if they are turning in low estimates . The banks hire them and pay them with the customers money that the banker collects on the closing papers at closing . Its a really neat package deal where everyone is happy and a good time is had by all. After all the homeower gets to be one and that is a privilage so they should be really happy. I guess .
Drive- bys are called opinions . Ive paid for them and the apprasior doesnt leave the office if he knows the house already. He can do a comparison with out the strung out one he does for the lending company.
I was talking about a full blown appraisel with the doors locked and he never called. I think Ive told everyone I know about it in the last five years . Ive cost him a lot of business but hes still practicing . The main bank I use quit using him , but there are four more that do . Thats all I can do really until he does more people that way and they want to complain. Appraisors are more apt to get the hatchet from the people . They can say hell no and it stops right there until another one is agreed on . I went to a closing once and this mans name was on the contract and I walked out and went back to work like it didnt happen . They never asked me who, they just did it . I never paid it because it was that same appraisor and my bank knew how I felt . I had given the president my order not to use him on any of my loans . He was considered the house appraisor with the bank. All the loan agents put his name on the contract to be paid at closing with out telling the client . He does the job and the bank pays him before the closing ever happens . If I accepted the closing I would have had to pay all costs . I refused to buy the house on principal. The bank ate the appraisel and odered a new one of my choice . I closed .
Tim Mooney
Edited 1/22/2004 8:52:34 AM ET by Tim Mooney
Edited 1/22/2004 9:22:29 AM ET by Tim Mooney
FWIW, 10 years or so ago, FHA used to equate the FHA inspections with "industry standard" (read ASHI SoP) home inspections. The GAO made them stop that claim because too many people thought they were the same thing and got burned.
There is a wider variety among FHA inspectors than there is among home inspectors, but even the best only look at a few things - roof (from the ground, no binoculars) exterior paint. handrails on stairs, GFIs in kitchens and bath, and a glance at the heating system and main panel.
If they see anything they have questions about (potential aged furnace or roof, etc) they will require a certification by a for that system.
I haven't heard about general inspection requirements in the secondary mortgage market (but isn't that a wonderful idea? {G}) - there are some primary lenders who require one.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
In some states inspectors are required by long term lending insitutions . Its true and they have a right to ask because the apraisels have failed several billion dollars worth of losses. Texas is one I know of and Im not a traveled man. On every contract that a real estate company uses in the state of Arkanasas reccomends an inspector. Thats their disclaimer warning .
Tim Mooney
"Its true and they have a right to ask because the apraisels have failed several billion dollars worth of losses. Texas is one I know of and Im not a traveled man."
Yes, they have the right to ask for the HI, but I have just not heard of it being a reqular requirement.
And apraiser really do a completely different job, there evaluations are based on structure being in sound condition, but they do factor in surface wear (paint, carpet, etc).
I have had limited, but wide ranging experience with appraisers.
When I build my house in 78-79 I did it backwards. I built it and then went to get a loan to finish paying off the builder. Anyway at that time residential building was high and commercial in the dumps. The appriaser that came out was only used to doing commercial. He ask how much I needed for the loan and said that it would go for that. At that time you did not get to see the apprisal, but AFAIK that was the whole basis for his aprasial. he did not even make any measurements or go inside.
In the early 90's I refi'd and that appraiser looked everything over carefully and when I go a copy of it he was very detailed in how he did based on depreciated building cost, replacement cost, and comps. And where I live the house now run from $70k to $500+k and might be next to each over and he did a great job of finding comps and making adjustments for the differences.
A couple of years ago I was involved in the sale of a church. We used an appraiser that just did commerical and was used by our assoication for another sale a few months earlier. But the guy was a real hack. Listed the details of the property wrong, had the wrong zoning classification, use distant and way outdated comps and ignored the sale of an other church 3 blocks away a couple of months earlier. Then at the end he said that churches where hard to appraise and that his GUESS was $xxx.
A friend of mine, an RE agent by the way, bought a house that had a bowed foundation. She knew that it and was planning on fixing it. The appraiser said that this is how much the house will appraise for AFTER the foundation repairs, but that the mortgage co would not make a loan as it was. But the seller had already come down as much as they where going to. So she had to spend $6,000 to fix the foundation before closing. It all worked out. And after about $5 more in repairs and fix up she refi'd and the new apraisal was bout $60, over what she paid for it.
I guess I've had several bones to pick over appraisers . Not just that one . It all revolves around what the appraiser sets as the worth . People usually don't understand the true value to that . Often the appraiser has the final judgement alone whether people get to buy a home . I like the HI approach and feel it should be part of the appraise package . My major complaint is that the value of a home isn't adjusted for a remodeling project completed for example . They tend to take sg footage and compare to another home of similar that has sold . A new kitchen that costs 10,000 needs to be affixed some tangible amount to a comp with a kitchen 20 years old . It isn't unless you hire an opinion first and promise the appraise at job end. There are too many variables with none clear except sg ft pricing .
Like Bob my view is personal because I buy repos and remodel . I have always needed a common denominator to figure worth before and after . I don't like gambling. A real estate market analysis and a HI report is a better way to fly to know where you are . I will add an opinion too to add the the other two. 3 sources to work from to better set a value . A broker will dern well know the worth because they are involved in the daily market and take the real live market into account . A broker knows a house in poor condition or one that needs TLC wont bring a decent offer much less an amount set by an appraiser using sg ft pricing comparibles .
Tim Mooney
This is the response that I got from my RE agent friend. This is the Kansas City area;
"To my knowledge, home inspectors are welcome and insisted upon by realtors in this area. If the buyer does not get the potential home inspected by a certified home inspector (although he can use anyone he wants), they have to sign another document stating that they were advised to do so. I have never heard of a mortgage company having a home inspection. Just appraiser or FHA appraiser. I do not believe any of the realtors in this area feel that home inspectors are deal breakers, we feel they protect all of us."
Bill,
I wonder if general agent attitudes in an area are the result of what type of HI first got established in that area.
I know a couple of the "name inspectors" in KC pretty well and they don't have any strong attitudes about agents as a group that I know of.
Same in Toledo. The most established HI here with the largest exposure to agents (he does a lot of marketing and agent continuing ed stuff) doesn't have negative feelings about them as a group as well.
I know some HIs who loudly trumpet negative views about agents. I wonder it, in the areas where they were "first on the scene," a different general mindset and "standard" of relations between agents and HIs has become established.
My experience is that most agents in my area want their clients to be happy with their purchase. Some just want the commission check and don't give a rip about anyone else.
A very high volume agent I know is also very concerned with taking care of his clients. When I book an inspection where he is the selling agent, I relax a little because I know the home is likely to be in good shape - there probably aren't going to be obvious problems.
And I know that when I find problems (which are almost always going to be "hidden" e.g., in the crawl or attic in the panel or other spots most folks don't go) he is vigorous in getting those problems dealt with. I would refer my daughters to him.
There are a couple of agents in my area who I would gladly recommend only to some of my sparring partners here, but I cringe when I book an inspection where they are part of the deal either because the odds are significantly higher that the house is a POS or simply because that agent is a PITA. They are a small minority in my area.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
I was enjoying reading the thread and had decided I wouldnt contribute , but Im on the edge of my chair now . LOL.
Very good post and imformative. You are also right to think about contractors should know more about realestate. There should be a lot more contractors , even carps that should be saving now with rentals properties working toward that end while they are young and healthy . The fact is , that there is hardly any countable percentage here and its a damn shame .
Tim Mooney
good point, tim... my biggest regret is not keeping more of the properties we've owned.. with a little stretch we certainly could have..
in our area, it used to be, if you can hang on to a residence for about 10 years, the negative cash flow turns positive in a big way...
it's hard to beleive that rents will ever exceed the mortgage and expenses.. but inflation and lack of rental property soon puts the lie to that..
and contractors are in a unique position to turn sweat equity into net worthMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"and contractors are in a unique position to turn sweat equity into net worth"
Mike , its the best honest deal Ive ever seen for a contractor . Nothing I have ever researched brings back the solid return with out risk in my area I could wish for. A couple three years ago a friend handling stocks was always beating me to death telling me all the money he was making and I was a fool not to sell out and invest with him . He is an honest friend and the numbers were really nice . I didnt feel safe and Im too old to gamble is what I told him. He lost every thing . Ive made money every day since 911. Not a lot of money , but no losses. I went to my high school reunion and the guys werent going to retire as fast . They had lost about 40 percent around of their total retirement. Of course the niche is being able to fix up a mess or build your own . I feel lucky.
Tim Mooney
I didnt have the forsight either as a young man , but its not too late to still . It never is if you are in good health . The plan is best for the young but its not necesary to pay for the property in your life time or whats left of it . I look for 200 dollars per unit a month in profit over financing , taxes and insurance . A four plex if bought or built in the money could easily bring 800 to1000 per month and you never pay for it . If you have the time to build them or gut and redo them with out getting paid the value is still there . Something has to pay the bills in the meantime while it happens . Even if they are never payed for by you , its a gift to the wife or kids .
A great gift from a father to a son or daughter would be to co-sign and gaurentee collateral to a four plex as a wedding present for example . Their apartment can be free while getting a note for them payed off . If you get it back its welcomed at the price. Stays in the family .
Tim Mooney
Edited 1/22/2004 12:01:20 PM ET by Tim Mooney
The point that I was making was that one knows the car from the inside while the other only knows it from the outside.
And that's what Bob and guys like him are. Outsiders looking in and trying to make out like they know construction.
It's simply not enough to fill out a form with checkmarks and charge people for a service that's not complete.
Unfortunately, a significant number of homebuyers put their trust in franchised home inspectors without knowing what they're paying for.
These are the same kind of people who look to Home Depot salesmen for building advice. After all, the Home Depot is in the building industry so the cashier must be able to solve their ventilation problems or advise them on what shingles to buy.
Bob's a disillusioned lawyer who wanted out of a rut. Dabbled a little in home projects, figured this was fun and he had the ability to make it into a business.
Does he know anything about construction? Sure he does. Does he know enough to give a proffessional opinion? Of course not. And everytime he fills out a form, he's giving an opinion.
He's a fun guy to play with, but that's where it ends.
Gabe
Gabe, you're wrong in every fact and allegation you made in that post other than the fact that I practiced law.
You have no facts or other basis to make the assertions that you did.
How about the fact that you couldn't leave it alone?
Gabe
Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: 'fakt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
. . .
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
Main Entry: opinion
Pronunciation: &-'pin-y&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century
1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
Can you say "&-'pin-y&n?"
Since you don't recognize the difference, I dare say not.
And I meant to ask. A little earlier you said: "People soon learned not to screw with me."
I then screwed with you big time, Bad Bad Leroy Brown.
Edited 1/22/2004 9:58:43 PM ET by Bob Walker
I'm really curious on how it feels to be so quickly and thoroughly humiliated.
Oh that's easy my learned friend, just get in touch with your own feelings instead of your feminine side and you're there. And that's a fact folks.
Gabe
You'll have to excuse me Bobby if I'm slow at getting back to you, I'm watching my Senators entertaining the Penguins and that has a higher priority than sparring with an outsider.
And it's bad, bad Leroy Brown
The baddest man in the whole damned town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
"The point that I was making was that one knows the car from the inside while the other only knows it from the outside........It's simply not enough to fill out a form with checkmarks and charge people for a service that's not complete."
Gabe,
Very interesting thread. I have to say I agree with many of the posters. But with that statement...There is a lot an inspector can point out, and I think often intentionally don't.
Ten years ago when I purchased my house (a vacant fixer upper in a very good area) My "inspector" pointed out all sorts of minor stuff, but ?"missed"? all the biggies that could have been/SHOULD have been spotted, and should have been, and probably were.
These included way undersized floor joists and rafters, an unsupported bearing wall resting in the center on an open 20' span, no venting at all for the plumbing, and a chimney that was ready to topple over with only a flue liner on the top three feet! I won't even go into the electrical.
I did get a detailed 30 page report though. Stuff like "trim needs caulk" and "window is cracked, and "paint is pealing." Made it look like he actually did his job, till a few years later when on my own I learned he didn't.
Jon
Edited 1/23/2004 8:36:10 PM ET by WorkshopJon
I'm curious as to why your think inspectors might intentionally leave stuff out.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
"I'm curious as to why your think inspectors might intentionally leave stuff out."
Bob,
Because for them it's a one time transaction. Their referrals will typically come from an attorney or real estate agent, not the person they are performing the inspection for. AND, even with major structural or mechanical faults, the HO may not discover them for years, long after the HI has moved on to something else.
One of the things that makes for a successful sales person is to make the customer feel good. But by the time a HI is called into the picture, the client has typically invested quite a bit of time and money into the planned purchase. The last thing they want hear is that the house has major defects.
Jon
Jon,
There are other significant factors at play.
First is simply pride. In my experience most people take (or want to take) pride in their work.
Second, and probably more important, is the cost of complaints.
If you skip stuff, those "one time transactions" will turn into much much more.
Fielding phone calls after an inspection because the client thinks you missed something cuts into time which can be otherwise productively spent (like writing messages for BT {G})
Some questions and complaints can be handled with a "short" phone call or two. (Short: Initial conversation; pull the applicable report; review the report to see what is says on the subject raised; call back to discuss.) Sometimes/often such a situation also requires calls to the buyer's agent, who has been pulled into the discussion.)
Not infrequently, answering the call involves going back out to house and looking at the claimed problem and talking with the buyer. That will always involve at least an hour and usually, with travel and administrative time (pull and review the report, travel to the site, look at whatever and discuss the question, and write the memo for the file on the call) that can chew up a couple or even several hours.
The time spent on those call backs can cut into "actual" productive time. If the client will only schedule during the day, I might have to give up a slot when I would book an inspection.
And, there is the concern with potential liability.
>>The last thing [the buyer] wants [to] hear is that the house has major defects.
In some cases, you're right. I've had buyers break down in tears when I've shown them that their "dream home" was actually a nightmare.
But there is another significant psychological factor at work here which you should consider.
The buyers also want to feel they have wisely spent their money getting a home inspection.
There are a lot of times where, when I find something "major" the buyer says "you just earned your money." They aren't happy, but they feel vindicated or something.
Deliberately skip stuff?
For these (and other) reasons, no experienced inspector I know would.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Edited 1/24/2004 2:14:25 PM ET by Bob Walker
Bob,
From your response it sounds to me that you are an ethical guy. My limited experience with HI's leads me to believe me however that many out their are not and/or haven't got a clue what they are doing.
"There are other significant factors at play. .........If you skip stuff, those "one time transactions" will turn into much much more."
When I received my HI 30 plus page report, there was all sorts of legal language that pretty much excluded him from any liability. This was after he did the inspection, which then I was obligated to pay for.
Maybe the guy was not use to inspecting older (pre "code") homes. But there was just SO MUCH stuff he missed, that while not staring him in the face, should have been a flag. He did claim to have 15 years experience.
My bother had a similar experience 5 years ago when he purchased his house, a '70's colonial on LI NY. Inspector came though, noted minor stuff. The following day , my parents took a look at the place, and my mom (who knows absolutely nothing of house construction) seemed to think there was something "just not right" about the attached sunroom addition. So when my dad wrote the contract, he put specific language in it saying that if there were deficiencies (in the sunroom), the seller would make repairs.
Well, the gist of it was that the addition was built on a second story deck that had no footings, no roof venting, no header across the 20' opening the sellers had cut through the wall! As matter of fact, they removed so many load bearing walls in the house, he has already sunk almost $100K into it doing repairs/remodeling (gee, that would explain all drywall cracks that "needed taping" in the HI report").
Every contractor who looked at the addition said it was best to just tear it off and replace it (except for the sellers guy). In the end the sellers refunded my brother $31K.
My sister just purchased a house 2 weeks ago (paid an inspector $450. to look at the place) He didn't catch a valve that the HO had placed in the heating system that should not have been there, and caused her pipes to burst in the recent cold weather out East, thus causing a flood in her basement.
Maybe there are a lot of BSer's doing home inspecting, whatever the case, they are covering their tails, and making money at it.
Jon
Jon,
I obviously cannot address any particular situations, and I agree that there are incompetent home inspectors out there.
There are incompetents in every trade.
I have seen "professional" work by licensed tradesmen in every line of work that not only falls short of code compliance, but which is outright dangerous.
I have seen concrete contractors advise people to fill a void under a basement slab with grout without considering whether the void might contain wastelines in need of repair and which might be further damaged by the "expert" advice given.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe for their offers!
The first donation just arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
"I obviously cannot address any particular situations, and I agree that there are incompetent home inspectors out there.
There are incompetents in every trade."
Bob,
Not disagreeing with you on that. But there are certain "professions" IMO HI not a profession, not that a good one doesn't need all the skills and or degree of training and experience of say an attorney but...they are far and few of them, compared to the overall numbers that are out there.
Based on my VERY limited experience, and word of mouth, it is a business that has a great number of people in it claiming to be your "paid ally" when in fact they are something else.
Ummmm, kinda' like a lot of attorneys. LOL
Jon
Edit: I Just did a search on the ASHI web site.....The HI who did my house is one of 16 recommended "Members" for my area.<G>
Edited 1/24/2004 6:46:20 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Your home inspector reminds me of a few of projects I've been on where the client was represented by some volunteer instead of a professional. We call em Paint Inspectors.
The entire building could be falling down that these yahoos can only comment on the final paint finish.
Having done both commercial and residential work in my career, I have found that the relationship between building inspectors and builders is more of a partnership in commercial than that of the residential builder.
Larger town and cities sometimes contract out to professional building inspection service firms and the level of expertise available is almost limitless.
It gives us a cushion of comfort knowing that we can discuss issues before they become problems or deficiencies.
I would like to see the same available expertise in the residential market.
Can you imagine what a pleasure it would be to build your own home and be able to depend on your building inspector to be able to spot potential problems before they were buried behind drywall and advise you on solutions instead of being a half-ased code cop.
Gabe
The renters only have 12 more years and its yours! LOL. Thats a nice feeling isnt it ? Someone else pays the bill and you reap the harvest. Of course getting them is the hardest part , doing all the work and normally paying for the material. Pretty sweet after that to make a check on borrowed property every month till its paid for.
Tim Mooney
It's always best to invest in what you know! After I'm done building my own place, I'm thinking I'll just mostly work on more rentals. The real estate market certainly has flat periods, but it's almost impossible for it to go to ZERO!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
It's not the size of the report but the substance and I bet that retired contractor has a great time helping his clients/friends.
Gabe
It's the hunded thing.
Actually thy are the best of buds...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
No, a maroon could be taken as racist, and that wouldn't fly, would it?
Maroon = racist?
Are you thinking of the old terms quadroon, octoroon etc which were used to designate the percentage of African blood in a person?
So far as I know, maroon means either a color or a stupid person - even the http://www.Urbandictionary.com doesn't list any racist connotations for this:
maroon
1. A color between red and brown
2. A stupid person; a fool
1. She's wearing maroon pants
2. "What a maroon." -- Bugs Bunny
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!