My wife and I are currently in the process of selling our house and just had a home inspection done. While only one problem was found, it happens to be the one problem everyone runs from. The foundation! From what i can gather, the inspector informed the angent that the front wall of our house (basement block) was leaning in 2″. (yet he couldnt determine if it was still moving) The owner before us had this problem solved by having steel i-beams installed every 8 feet along the wall. The inspector claims that these have consequently caused the back wall to lean out as well. While this may be the case, I am confused about a number of things –
1) Are home inspectors qualified in structural engineering in such a way as to make blanket statements about the unsuitablility of this as a preventive measure?
2) How does the inspector determine this in the first place? As I understand it, he hung a string from corner to corner just like one would to determine if a box is square. While this sounds like ti may work on a house with exposed basement walls, both the front and back wall of our basement are covered with studs and drywall.
Any help and sugestions would be of a great help.
Thanks
Edited 5/12/2006 7:06 pm ET by hdgis1
Replies
No, home inspectors are far from building engineers and they have to be careful about what they report as a hazard vs a condition. you'll need to consult an engineer as to the foundations stability
as far as how he found the condition, 2 inches in 8 feet would catch my eye as well
Yes it would mine two, however, the studs for drywall are not attached to the blocks but are set out about 8 inches so it seems that any test he conducted woudl be showing the framing out of true.
Do you have his report? If not, you need to get one. I would be interested in reading his exact language for writing this up.
If he's a good inspector, his wording will be very vague, such that he will just say the facts. Then he will add his opinion for what "could" be causing it. This is just an opinion, but if the new buyer believes it, then it's the gospel truth.
You can always bring in an engineer to refute the claim. If you're worried about this coming up again with subsequent buyers, it may behoove you to have this report in your back pocket.
“The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.” – Albert Einstein
As everyone has mentioned, to translate what the inspector is telling you:
You have an issue with your foundation that could be very, very bad. Might not be, but could be.
The steel I-beams are a tip off that somebody thought it was bad enough to drop some cash into stabilizing it.
Pay the guy who can tell you (engineer) if it is actually bad or not.
For your specific questions:
>>"1) Are home inspectors qualified in structural engineering in such a way as to make blanket statements about the unsuitablility of this as a preventive measure?
In general, no. Using their specific niche of expertise, they can point out potential problems that call for further investigation by an appropriate specialist. Conversely, if the HI can see with his own eyes that whatever was done is obviously failing, it's not hard to make a blanket statement that it's unsuitable.
>>"2) How does the inspector determine this in the first place? . . . covered with studs and drywall.
What I would have done is hung a plumb bob and measured off the string to the wall at intervals along the wall. If everything is covered, don't know what your guy did but the fact remains that you paid him for his opinion; he gave you his opinion; now you don't like his opinion. Why'd you hire him?
An engineer might cost you as little as a couple to a few hundred bucks depending on the going rate where you are. How much is the house worth?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
The potential buyers probably hired the home inspector, not the home seller.
>>"The potential buyers probably hired the home inspector, not the home seller.
That would make more sense, wouldn't it. ;-)
If that's the case, I got thrown off by his saying that he & his DW are selling house and "had a home inspection done," as in they had it done (implicit subject -- now I feel like Sancho and Bob talking grammar) ;-) I often get HI reports on homes I am selling to make sure anything they might catch is fixed before the buyer's HI goes through. Always leave at least one obvious thing that's easy to fix -- lets them catch something (last house we intentionally left off the chimney cap -- works like a charm). ;-)
Either way, result is the same I think. If it was me buying that house, I'd either pass on it or get an engineer I trust to give me an opinion.
If it was me selling that house, I'd offer to get an engineering report saying all is OK. Then find an engineer who will say all is OK (assuming that's possible; maybe it is really bad?). ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
It sounds like you are going to have to consult an engineer or a well-versed contractor to get a good answer. However, this report will have a profound effect on the sale of your home. Ultimately, the buyer commissioned the inspector (I assume) to report all potential problems with your home and regardless of the language; the buyers will accept his report (right or wrong). You need to work closely with your listing agent, who will work with the buyers agent to determine what course of action is required to facilitate the sale of your home. You also need to ask your agent to obtain a copy of the report. You are paying the agent a commission; let the agent work for his or her commission.
Randy – Erie, PA
>>The owner before us had this problem solved by having steel i-beams installed every 8 feet along the wall. The inspector claims that these have consequently caused the back wall to lean out as well. While this may be the case, I am confused about a number of things ....
Is this a walk-out basement on the "back wall?" If it is not, I don't understand how a basement wall could be pushed out.
How big is the basement? What shape is it? How much of the foundation wall can be viewed? "Front?" Back? Sides?
Is the ceiling finished?
Is the wall still straight, but leaning? (At best unusual, if not impossible. because of the side walls.
Or is the foundation bulged? Horizontally? Vertically? If horizontally, what is the height of the crack on the wall? About midway? Within a couple of courses of grade? What is the soil composition?
How wide is the crack (or, in aggregate,) the cracks?
How is the grading? Do you have 6-10' downspout extensions? Where are you located? How old is the house?
What is the water penetration history?
Can you see the floor framing? Are the joists parallel to or at right angles to the wall which has moved in? Can you see how the tops of the steel I-beams were tied into the framing?
If the joists are parallel, have they bowed at the locations of the steel?
Can you post any pics?
What are the qualifications of the HI? How many inspections has he done? Is he a member of one of the trade associations?
As noted, most HI's are not engineers (some are.)
In my area, added steel reinforcement is common because of the heavy clay soils; and the ("we") experienced inspectors are, in many cases, able to assess the (in)adequacy of some attempted reinforcement jobs - some contractors see the general picture but do a poor job of tying the top of the steel into the structure.
You need to seek another opinion. Depending on the range of facts, you might have to be prepared to do some demolition to gain access to the walls.
Please keep us posted.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
Edited 5/13/2006 11:48 am ET by rjw
A friend of mine bought a house like. IIRC the top is pushed in 6" and there is a horizontal crack about 1/2 way down.She bought it as is, knowing the problems, but had to pay to get it reinforced before she could close because of the loan.You can see that lots of efort where make to fix the water problems (internal french drains and sump), but not to stop the real cause.Regrade the back yard. Mud jack up the patio that sloped towards the house. Clean and extends out he gutters.In 4 years that sump has only run once. When I put a hose in it to verify that it worked and to trace the discharge.Since finished off most of the space. But you can still see the transition when you come down the stairs and hit the finished space.Pictures and the original engineers report for when she sells.The is a 50"s era home and apparently not bolted to the foundation. So the foundation moved and the house stayed square (more or less).
>>Is this a walk-out basement on the "back wall?" If it is not, I don't understand how a basement wall could be pushed out.
How big is the basement? What shape is it? How much of the foundation wall can be viewed? "Front?" Back? Sides?
Is the ceiling finished?<<
Yes it is a walk out and the basement is pretty much a rectangle subdivided into rooms. Id say in all its about 25 by 50. On the exterior, foundation is covered in front and open in back. Sides are about 2/3 exposed. Interior all foundation walls are covered with drywall. (framing sits out about 6" from each wall and insulated. Cieling is finished with drop cieling.
>>Is the wall still straight, but leaning? (At best unusual, if not impossible. because of the side walls.
Or is the foundation bulged? Horizontally? Vertically? If horizontally, what is the height of the crack on the wall? About midway? Within a couple of courses of grade? What is the soil composition?
How wide is the crack (or, in aggregate,) the cracks?<<
from what I have gather, the front wall is leaning in 2 inches while the back wall is bulged hoizontally. Side walls are straight level and plumb. There are NO cracks in the foundation. We had an inspection done 2 years ago when we bought the house and no cracks existed then or now. Soil composition is clay based.
>>How is the grading? Do you have 6-10' downspout extensions? Where are you located? How old is the house?
What is the water penetration history?
Can you see the floor framing? Are the joists parallel to or at right angles to the wall which has moved in? Can you see how the tops of the steel I-beams were tied into the framing?
If the joists are parallel, have they bowed at the locations of the steel<<
House sits on hill with length of house running parralel to slope of hill. Downspouts are run underground and drain centrally about 20 feet out. Located in Athens OH. House was built in the early seventies. Floor joists are covered with drop cieling but nothing was out of ordinary when I hung cieling. Will have to look into whether the are right angle etc. No water penetration. Seems that was stopped or prevented with Dry'loc and what I think is kind of unusual - on the front wall of the house, there is a three inch gap between foundation wall and slab which is filled with gravel to collect and drain any seepage that occurs on that wall. Beems are bolted to floor joists and sunk (i assume) 24 inches into concrete.
>>Can you post any pics?
What are the qualifications of the HI? How many inspections has he done? Is he a member of one of the trade associations?
As noted, most HI's are not engineers (some are.)<<
As for pics, Im not sure what to post. Here a link to some exterior pics:
http://www.soleandbloom.com/property/additional_photos.cgi?property=8476&address=6211%20SHELLEY%20DRIVE
Not sure about qualifications of HI as we didnt hire him. Was recommended by real estate agent.
Hope all of this helps.
another point to remember is your Form 17 Disclosure..
We are in process of selling our home and a small issue came up, nothing serious. Our real estate agent mentioned the fact that if this buyer decides not to pursue the sale based on the HI report that the condition, whatever it is, is known (?) and must, in their opinion be declared when the next offer is made. Depending upon your state of local laws you should, be prepared to correct the problem, if in fact it does exist, or spend the $ and have an expert refute the claim in writing. This is more PYOA than anything, but that is why the sharks get their piece first and live high. Either way, you have to resolve it.
We had offer/counter-offer after the report..both sides were reasonable and, so far, we seem to have resolved the issue.
Good luck and let us know how it works out.
bum
...keep smiling...makes 'em wonder what you're up to !!
Years ago I sold a home and the inspector that the buyer hired was an idiot. The real estate agent told me what the inspector told the potential buyers. When I got done listening to him he did not realize who he had on the other end of the line and in the course of our conversation I realized he did not realize a lot of things. For example he told the buyers there was a drainage problem in the yard because the catch basin had water in it. I asked him if he ran water down the pipe. It was a 4" pipe. He told me he had not run water down it but there was water in the bottom. I told him of course there would be because the drain pipe was near the top of the catch basin so that dirt would not flow down the pipe and into the street. I shot a big hole in him fast with his ignorance. I was living in that home and knew what the house was like. When I got done with him the house sold.
For a back and front wall to have moved two inches from vertical would mean it had to move the blocks along the other two walls. The blocks would be a pile of rubble.
>>For a back and front wall to have moved two inches from vertical would mean it had to move the blocks along the other two walls. The blocks would be a pile of rubble.Not necessarily: there could be a vertical bulge in the wall reflecting that the center has moved in but the ends have stayed in place because of the side walls.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
"Not necessarily: there could be a vertical bulge in the wall reflecting that the center has moved in but the ends have stayed in place because of the side walls."I agree, but my understanding was that the top of the walls moved the same direction and no bulge in the middle was mentioned.
Apparently, the whole basement has been finished (by the current owner?)And He din't answer the bulge question.In such a case, one is limited to the exterior view and such secondary indicators as the plumb/out-of-plumb of the basement windows, etc.In my area (very flat, walk-out basements are rare) it would be unusual to have the top move in and the whole wall lean, but I see plenty of horizontally bulged walls and the out of plumb can be detected/suspected in significant cases from outside.In the case being discussed, 2" movement of the top of either the front or the back would probably be noticeable from outside, and could be checked with a string from corner to corner along the front and back.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
Ive put a call into the agent to get a copy of the HI report. WIll post when I get it. As for previous home inspection, this 'issue' was not mentioned as a problem, it was merely pointed out and left at that.
ThanksIn orig message >>2) How does the inspector determine this in the first place? As I understand it, he hung a string from corner to corner just like one would to determine if a box is square. While this sounds like it may work on a house with exposed basement walls, both the front and back wall of our basement are covered with studs and drywall.I'm wondering if he ran a string across the front of the houseFrom the pics: Which walls does he say moved? The one under the front door and the back under the deck?As an HI, this can be the hardest sort of thing to (i) diagnose and (ii) disclose so that the client doesn't get all emotional and irrational.We can only work on what we see at a moment in time and on similar situations. But usually, we are left telling the client that there is an unquantifiable degree of risk without more information (such as documentation from whoever did the work and/or tearing out the finished walls.)
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
You'll be lucky if you get a copy of the home inspection report. The HI company is under no obligation to give anyone but the potential buyer (who paid for it) the report. Unless maybe you pay for a copy.
Get a real structural engineer to examine your home.
First, that inspector is NOT an engineer and probably shouldn't be making those statements. However,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
When you bought the place, you got (and still have) the documentation (stamped drawings, permits, inspection reports, etc) regarding the fix, right? If the fix was designed and stamped by a licensed structural engineer, you're probably ok as long as you can show that things haven't moved since the work was done.
On the other hand, if the work wasn't done by the numbers, you may have a real problem.
He may have used a plumb bob--or a level. That's what you could use to double check.