Here is my situation. Put a garage addition onto an existing 90 year old house. All of the roofs got new architectural grade asphalt shingles, this I had subed out to a local roofing contractor. Older portion has exposed rafter tails and beadboard (open) soffits. The garage has exposed soffits too, but not beadboard, just boards side to side longways and painted at the exposed underside, so it sort of looked the same but not quite as decorative.
The homeowner is upset. The roofing sub blew nails through both the beadboard soffits and the garage’s painted board soffits. Homeowner is claiming that his old soffits look terrible/damage. You can kinda see that. It had been reroofed, probably many times in the past, and never had this (nails driven so deep you see ’em out the underside) occurence.
Before I get all technical, what do most builders do in situations like this, older home with decorative soffit material? Beadboard is generally blind-nailed so that no fasteners are shown. Should we pros be so bound by trade associations and code that we just say “screw it”, and don’t even pay attention to the old construction materials and methods?
Head roof contractor was not even around for the work and they had non-english speaking crew just go at it for speed. They forgot the ridge vent and I had to try to communicate it to the crew. Two days later they came back and removed the top set of shingles and cut the ridge vent in.
I looked up the code for this municipality (UBC/CABO one & two family dwelling code) for anyone that wants to get technical it says, “fasteners shall be long enough to penetrate into the sheathing 3/4″ or through the thickness of the sheathing, whichever is less.”
I wonder if the roofing crew didn’t just scrape the old roof off and any nail heads left, just decided to drive them through on the deck to get a level surface. Do they do that on re-roofs?
Question is, is there something that should be done differently when you have an older home with exposed decorative soffits? Any roofing experts have advice on this?
Do you think I need to plan to redo the beadboard soffits? Does this fall on the roofing contractor to fix. Homeowner is going to withhold final payment (roof portion)if not corrected. Does this sound right?
Roofer says code and national roofers association (or some organization like that) “requires” that he set nails to go fully through all decking several quarter inches.
Okay. Problem then… there are one or two gable ends where they used either a shorter nail or something, because there is no damage to the bead board soffits there in those one or two locations.
I’m pretty sure that the roof deck material is all the same throughout the house 1 x 6 wood planks in attic areas and 1x beadboard at soffit locations, it all planes out.
I don’t have the exact thickness of the old bead board material but it is around 3/4″ and I know that the garage installation used 1″ nominal material so it is 3/4″ thickness.
What needs to happen and who needs to do what? I don’t like the look of the older front soffits now. The back garage is pretty much out of sight.
Edited 1/17/2007 3:33 pm by Astragal
Replies
DON'T PAY THE ROOFER!
More to follow.
SamT
So much of the success of a company is not determined by degrees but temperature. gb93433 83537.46
I see that. But if the Roof Contractor isn't paid in full then there is not going to be a roof workmanship warranty for the homeowner, right?
I'd be on the phone with the rep yesterday.
What was specified in the original contract?
Unless the fact that soffets would remain open, and that nails could not penetrate underside of beadboard, was made clear, I don't know that the roofer can be held accountable. (I realise this should be incredibly obvious considering the fact that 1Xs were used to "mimick" the look of the original....but a less honest roofer may not be bound.)
If you cannot convince the roofer to "make it right", you are going to have to withold final payment and forget the warrentee. I'm not sure a roofer of the caliber you are describing is likely to honor that warrentee anyhow though.
Take the funds witheld, and find another roofer to do it over properly.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
your roofing contractor is wrong.... the nails should never penetrate throught the sheathing. nails should be pulled instead of pounded flush also for this same reason. when the temperature falls the nails attract the condensation faster and either start to rust or drip onto your nice clean attic insulation and in the end start to cause mold, mildew or rot. not sure these are the exact circumstances but i do know that my first three sentences are correct. good luck and check with your local inspector.
EDIT one other note we had a roffer do the exact same thing this fall and luckily the soffits were painted and we ground the nails off bondo on any of the damaged/split beadboard and a fresh coat of paint. from 26' down hard to notice anything.
Edited 1/17/2007 1:41 pm ET by sotabuilder
"the nails should never penetrate throught the sheathing."
When I presented that as a matter of fact to my Roofing Contractor the other day, he quoted me a roofing trade association manual that said "must penetrate through..."
Can you supply me a source for your information? The local inspector hasn't returned my call yet and an inspection on the roof wasn't required.
View Image Here is a photo of toxic (tested as Aspergillus sp.) attic mold visible on pine tongue and groove roof sheathing near the building eaves. Also notice the condensation stains at the shingle nail, more evidence of a history of attic moisture which was a factor in this mold growth. (Click photo for larger image).
That is not caused by the length of the nail, but by excessive moisture in the attic.There are codes and manufacturers that require that nails protrude 1/4" through the sheathing, but there are ways to avoid this too, such as using six of a shorter nail instead of four of the long one, or underlying with I&W to prevent wind uplift.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
When I presented that as a matter of fact to my Roofing Contractor the other day, he quoted me a roofing trade association manual that said "must penetrate through..."
That's correct. The nail needs to penetrate the sheathing to achieve rated hold strength. If you read the shingle warranty, the shingle manufacturer almost certainly will say that the nails must penetrate through the sheathing.
Of course, that assumes sheathing of 1" or less in thickness - if it's thicker, so you can use a 1-1/4" nail and fully embed it without penetration, that should be fine.
wood...
<<<
84310.61 in reply to 84310.8
When I presented that as a matter of fact to my Roofing Contractor the other day, he quoted me a roofing trade association manual that said "must penetrate through..."
That's correct. The nail needs to penetrate the sheathing to achieve rated hold strength. If you read the shingle warranty, the shingle manufacturer almost certainly will say that the nails must penetrate through the sheathing.
Of course, that assumes sheathing of 1" or less in thickness - if it's thicker, so you can use a 1-1/4" nail and fully embed it without penetration, that should be fine>>>
that is so untrue..
i've been a Certainteed master Shingle Applicator for about 6 years
i can quote you chapter and verse about all the exceptions.. AND they don't specify that it has to penetrate.. only that it has to go into 3/4 of wood .... OR.. if the wood is thinner than that , THEN it has to penetrate
thay also have a whole section on shingling "open soffits"
do you really think that bead board ceilings/ open rafter tails / etc. just got invented and the mfr's have been ignoring it ?
so .. show me the quote and i'll show you another that will refute it
board sheathing and open rafter tails have been around a long time .. and it has ALWAYS been bad form to let the nails show thru
and it ALWAYS results in homeowners being unhappy..
if you have to charge more.. then charge more.. but for crying out loud.. at least know your own tradeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike.
You know I'm not a roofing contractor. Never said I was. Never thought about installing the roof myself. Just thought better to leave it to a pro.
Upon your notice about the open soffit exception w/ Certainteed, I went ahead and checked the shingle manufacturer for the shingle used. Sure enough. There it is printed right on the sleeve, "recommend 3/4" nail for open soffits." I will ask about this tomorrow.
Thanks to all for the friendly advice. Will try to work out a compromise.
i've been a Certainteed master Shingle Applicator for about 6 years
I've not worked with Certainteed, but the information I posted was from GAF's installation instructions:
"Fasteners should be long enough to penetrate...just through plywood decks."
http://www.gaf.com/Content/Documents/20302.pdf
i went to your link and it plainly states that in wood decks, the fastener must go a minimum of 3/4"
it doesn't say they have to go THRU Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It plainly states
"Fasteners should be long enough to penetrate...just through plywood decks."
as I said before.
why are you talking about plywood decks ?
the OP is talking about exposed boards
and... if the plywood was 1", GAF would still only require 3/4" penetration... same as the rest of the mfr'sMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if theres a moisture problem it need to be addressed with ventilation
9 out of 10 roofing crews use guns with 1 1/4" nails. if you told them their nails cannot penetrate the sheathing most roofers would laugh you off the roof.
there are shorter nails available that could have been used on the beadboard portion of the roof
so explain this to me, if you can use a 1 inch nail on the eaves where the wind is going to have the easiest time grabbing a shingle and pulling it up why would you go to a longer nail in the field? here in the historic area of st. paul 75% of the houses we work on have exposed soffits and our bid-spec says 1" nails, the one this fall was a sub of a sub other than that they are required to use 1" nails. tell me if you would be ok with knowing you or your subs are inviting the potential for growing mold anywhere in somebodys house in todays sue happy atmosphere?
hey, I dont like using the shorter nail either way but if thats what its going to take to preserve the architechtural detail and make the HO happy....
how true, you have to keep them happy... either way you break it down someone should have caught the details before a single nail was driven wether it be the GC or the roofers, and as you stated the ventilation has to be addressed also. i dont know about other areas of the country but here the latino roofing crews are far superior to the gringos, not to say there are exceptions to every rule. se habla espanol aqui.
I'm getting the feeling the GC here has to shoulder the responsibility for quality assurance. hes gotta know the roofers are going to show up at the job and throw a ladder against the gutter and get to work. I would'nt expect the roofing crew to do a detail analysis from the ground. hey, there roofers you know. if they had any brains they would'nt be roofers
the GC should have thought about those details long before the roofer got there
I'm getting the feeling the GC here has to shoulder the responsibility for quality assurance. hes gotta know the roofers are going to show up at the job and throw a ladder against the gutter and get to work. I would'nt expect the roofing crew to do a detail analysis from the ground. hey, there roofers you know. if they had any brains they would'nt be roofers
But in 1985 the same guys showed up, and they didn't blow nails through the roof decking?
And this brings to question a lot: take me, the GC, out of the equation. just a homeowner, wanting a roof after a hail storm, wanting a simple roof like before, a tear-off w/ new asphalt shingles, is the professional roofer and his latino crew free to claim ambivalence?
somewhere, somebody along the line is supposed to spell out what is expected or what they plan to do in a contract
I WOULD EXPECT a professional GC to cross the T's and dot the i's. especially when hiring subs. there's a reason they're subs - they need direction.
I would'nt expect a sub to walk onto a job cold and immediately know all the ins and outs of the project. you hired this guy to bang down shingles - thats what he did.
might I ask where were you when they were there working?
I was either practicing the cello or drywalling the garage.
Seriously, I arrived on site, saw the crew cleaning-up and focused in on the fact that they hadn't installed any ventilation. I became Myopic.
You should have specified:
A.) That 3/4-in roofing nails be used in the first x-number of feet. They are available at the big boxes and I've used them countless times for just this purpose. I've also used them in locations where the underside of the deck needed to look good from inside the structure. Two examples are: a summer room and a porch--both with exposed rafters. The nails I'm referring to require a hammer.
B.) That all nails in the area above the eaves be pulled during the tear-off.
Before anyone gets their bowels in disarray, I'm aware that the shingle manufacturers require that the nails penetrate the deck. However, the 3/4-in. nails that I've used have not failed in roofs that have been through hurricanes. In my experience, in extreme wind, shingles are far more likely to tear off the nail rather than pulling out the nails.
As far as responsibility goes, you blew it in my opinion. It's true that a conscientious roofer might have spotted this issue and mentioned it before the job started. On the other hand, a conscientious general contractor would have anticipated this problem and spelled out the requirements to the sub. You picked the sub and you failed to anticipate the problem. My advice is to be a man and accept the fact that you blew it and learn from this experience. Think your jobs through and try to anticipate all that can go wrong. That's your job! Rather than hiring hacks and just leaving the details to them, manage your jobs. Also, cultivate relationships with subs that care about quality and be willing to pay for their service.
It's all on you man, pay real roofers to fix it.
And do it fast before the shingles melt themselves together.
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion but who are real roofers? I went with a "professional" roofing contractor.
But please tell me Stilletto, if you are more of a pro, what should they have done?
What is the right solution to nailing into a existing open soffit as I have described?
This is what I do in that situation I resheet the roof. Shingle warranty is still good. 1-1/4" nails work and everyone is happy. 3/8" plywood minimum.
If I remember right the existing roof is 1x, I renail the 1x too.
I never claimed to be more of a pro than your non english speaking, soffit destroying roofers.
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion but who are real roofers? I went with a "professional" roofing contractor.
Just as in any profession, you will run across your share of craftsmen, as well as hacks. But beyond that, we have lowered our standards in general.
I'm willing to bet, that if you were to drive around looking at homes with similar roof overhang detail, you would notice more than a few with nails popping through the beadboard. I see them all the time. In most cases, the homeowner wasn't even aware of it themselves. Just not the attention to detail that once existed.
Its everywhere though. Take the example of pedestal sinks. Years ago, a plumber wouldn't consider using rough copper fittings outside of a wall to make the connections. Today, its speedies and PVC drain pipes. Few folks ever even notice.
In short.....your roofer screwed up. Unfortunately, you as the GC have to make good.
If you can convince him to fix his mistake at no cost to you, great. But I would be awfully leary. Guys that don't do things correctly the first time.....then argue that they did nothing wrong.....if made to agree to fix the problem, rarely put the time and effort into truely doing it properly. He'll likely just look for the quickest fix to appease you and get his money. I would be more inclined to look elsewhere. If you can find a roofing contractor willing to come in and fix someone elses screw up, you would be better off. Then deduct those charges from your final payment to roofer #1.
Best of luck man.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Very good post mudslinger--really excellent.
I would only add---- that simply using 1" or 3/4 " nails---is STILL no GAURANTEE that a nail won't blow through the bead on bead board---depending on the profile.
this should have been anticipated -and the possibility discussed with the homeowner and the roofer.---the pros' and cons of the possible solutions---- for example the 3/4" nails are used---but the shingle warranty is voided 'cause the spec'd fastners aren't being used.
Hand nailing?--that costs extra ya know, LOL
Stephen
RANT
Well, now that's curious... maybe I'm getting a little pissed, you know? address one of my earlier questions: what if the homeowner simply contracted with this roofing contractor?
Is this contractor off the hook because the homeowner must dot the i's and cross the t's? Homeowners who might not dot the i's and crossed the t's, who don't have a spec laying around. It seems to me that neither of us got what we arranged to get. That is embarrassing to think that a builder of any ilk just can plead "nope, can't do it, isn't done that way" when it is obvious to nearly all that it WAS done that way, successfully for decades?
I've heard one reader address this but not all the Pro's who said 'GC', so what'ya say? Do roofing contractors get off the hook when contracting directly with homeowners?
sub-contractors dont usually contract with home owners. thats mostly left up to roofing contractors or a GC.
subs are a different animal, you give them direction and they follow along for less pay than the contractor would earn. a general contractor makes more money simply because of all of the details he needs to address, like your little problem
a lot of guys start their businesses doing sub-contract labor just to get their feet wet in business. I think you need to think of subs more as temporary labor with one skill set in mind rather than as seasoned pro who wears many hats
"Well, now that's curious... maybe I'm getting a little pissed, you know? address one of my earlier questions: what if the homeowner simply contracted with this roofing contractor?"But they didn't, they contracted with you and it's your responsibility to correct the problems.busta"It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat anyway -- it's da batta!"
"Do roofing contractors get off the hook when contracting directly with homeowners? "
No. They are in the same situation that you are in now. They have a hard time getting paid.
And this happens whether they are in the right or the wrong.
If I had a roofer who had done this, I would work with him to fix the problem. This might mean that I would pay him some of the costs associated with the fix or that he would reduce his bill by some portion of what it would cost me to fix it, or we would both kick in something for the homeowner if he decided he could live with it.
I don't know a single sub who is perfect, who always sees what is obvious in hindsight, and who is always clear in their communications, and we use very good subs. What makes them good for us and our customers is that they will work to find solutions and we will be there right along side them and help to pay for their time. This is part of the cost of our service even if it is not on the itemized bill. This is true of every GC worth his salt.
with this Q, you are changing the scenario to a speculative oine instead of dealing with what is. The HO hired you as GC to make sure it was done right and you failed to. Diversionary tactics do not help the problem.That said, as a pro roofer, I would always walk around and review the whole situation before ordering materials, identify problems and suggest solutions. I think I would have caught this one for you.I did have something half similar once. I re-roofed what was a 200+ YO structrue that ahd once been a carriage house converted to a locker room for the ladies at a golf course. It was all locked up for the season before I ever set foot on site and had never been in that room previously, for obvious reasons. The sheathing was the original boarding that was pretty well peckered with the nails from a dozen roofs over the history of the building. Checks, spiderwebs, and all,it was painted from inside and they considered it a unique thing to look up at. I only found this outr as many boards disintegrated from above as I tore the old shingles off. The manager had not alerted me to any unique situations and this was all interior damge. I had no idea there was no ceiling etc nor that I should have protected the furniture and cabinets within. As soon as it became apparant, I was on the phone, telling him HE had a problem to solve. My job spec called for re-sheathing over the old with ply to begin with. For that area, the solution was to tarpaper fi5rst and then apply the new sheathing over. this left black spacing showing similar to before, but voids open where pieces of splintered old boarding fell out. He had to clean up the nails and debris inside that had fallen through. I got paid fine.It is the job of the owner to identify problems. In your vcase, he passed this responsibility on to you. According to all I have read from you so far, you simply said, "Go re-roof it guys" and did no supervision. You are making yourself sound so far like one of those paper contracotrs who wants the profit without the responsibility or the work. Sorry if that is not the way it IS, but that's the way it SOUNDS
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I, as an employer of subs am on your side. Code or no, I don't think it is unreasonable for either you or the HO to expect workmanship that doesn't look like sheet! Non the less, hindsight says that you AND the head roofer should have anticipated this situation, so I think it should be a joint effort; the roofers should fix it - including removing all the protruding nails, you splitting the cost - like maybe you buy the shingles and they supply the labor (if that was the original deal). If he has a pair he'll hold his guys partially responsible too. As far as the damage to the underside of the soffits, I think you are gonna have to look at that as a learning experience that you have to fix.
BTW - being new to this web site you probably don't know that most of the pro people here aren't GCs. There is more subs, granted, probably most rather skilled. So, consider the source. Also, probably fully 50% aren't pros at all...
As far as the guy above who said nails should never penetrate the underside of the sheathing... well... it takes all kinds! We are a very diverse crowd here :-)
To Matt and Mike and all the rest of you, "thanks for all the advice"
If there is news in the next day or so I will post.
I would like to see a picture of this entire job and lets see what the whole thing looks like.
schelling had the right answer,work it out with the roofer and the ho.otherwise,you da man!!!
p.s.peel back a shingle or two and see if maybe their compressor was set too high and set the nails/staples too deep.
this thread is probably gettin olde to you by now
but I'm w/ you & especially Mike Smith on this onehow did it take so long for Mike's points to be made?foresight, perspicacity - you can never have too much of it in this business
this is just one of the walks you will take w/ Murphyone thing I always look for in conversations with subs, suppliers, salesmen etc. is what I can learn from them or ideas, thoughts that are confirmed by themthat exposed soffit is a feature he should have addressed in his conversation w/ you on the street or on his proposal just like where he was to put the dumpster or drive his truck or protect the homeowners plants
if he has not mentioned it hopefully there is another one to consideryou are the one who will probably do the most to rectify this ( and pull your hair out ) but hopefully your roofer has some integrityGood luck & for the next time do what you can to take LUCK out of the equation
"might I ask where were you when they were there working?"OK, second best thing I've read here in years busta"It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat anyway -- it's da batta!"
Astragal,
It's the GC's responsiblity to make sure the job is done correctly, any assumptions on your part that turn out to be wrong become a liablity to you! You know what they say about assume? The correct method would be to use 1" nails on the overhang areas and 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" roofers on the rest of the roof. If you didn't make that requirement known or understood ahead of time between you and the roofer, you eat it. Also, the leftover nails (after stripping) should be pulled from the roof deck, unless they are driven into a rafter.
<But in 1985 the same guys showed up, and they didn't blow nails through the roof decking?>
Twenty years ago? and it's the same crew? and they still can't speak any English? Maybe it was a layover in '85, who cares!, It's 2006/7!! remember assumptions always get you in trouble.
And this brings to question a lot: take me, the GC, out of the equation. just a homeowner, wanting a roof after a hail storm, wanting a simple roof like before, a tear-off w/ new asphalt shingles, is the professional roofer and his latino crew free to claim ambivalence?
They can claim anything they want, ignorance won't get them to far. It's blatantly obvious that the nails showing in the over-hang are wrong, if the HO hired the roofer directly,he'd be going after him for a resolution, or he'd withold final payment until satisfied or he'd be in court suing the roofer.
From a professional standpoint, a GC is hired by the HO to protect his interests(the HO's) because we're the pro's, we should know better, that's what we're selling to the HO. Look at a HO who wants to GC construction of his own house, many will tell you later on, or part way thru the project, "I never realized what was involved in the process". That's why they hire us!
Another way to accomplish the thickness needed to prevent "shiners" is to add a layer of 3/8" ply, the width of the overhang and then taper it into the old roof plane with shim shingles butted to the ply and tapering off toward the ridge, you could even get away with 1/4" and no shims. What about the ice and water shield ?
Geoff
Back in the 'old days' pre- (80"s), standard roofing nail was 5/8 inch long. No guns,just fingers and a hatchet. Every time you set a nail you hit your finger just a little bit, didn't take long for the old fingers to start swelling up making the problem worse. so 1 inch nails became the standard. Jim
And-the nail head was about as big as a nickel---and "nurled"
just like the face of the hatchet is now-a-days
Stephen
...and you came home not only with swollen fingers but with the back of your nail holding hand rubbed raw and bleeding from the aggregate on the shingles rubbing against your hand all day long.
finger tape!
Only in the beginning - remember shinglers knuckles?big quarter sized callouses on each knuckle of each finger on the nail holding hand
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes I do.
There is another thread going here on corner boards. One of the posters talks about "now that he has started hand nailing corners..."
Made me laugh.. there didn't used to be any other way but hand nailing.
Well maybe the predecessor to Piffen screw I guess ;-0
remember having no discernable finger prints?
i really only handnailed for a few years before I switched to the gun-so the distinctive upside down hand position for hand nailing shingles never became permanently habitual.
when i hand nail now-it takes me a good hour to get into the proper position.--------usually , now handnailing is just a few at a time-and embarrassingly i hold the roofing nails like a fricken carpenter-or even worse-a home depot diy'er LOL
the shame of it, the shame-ohhh the shame,
Stephen
I have some guys who hand nail what appears to be as fast as other crews I use that gun nail. I'm not actually doing it so I might be wrong. I do notoce how quickly my roofs do or do not get done though... The hand nailers have those metal nail boxes they wear around their neck.
<<<The hand nailers have those metal nail boxes they wear around their neck.>>>
"nail strippers "...... haven't seen those in years..except at yard sales
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2007 2:31 pm ET by MikeSmith
My guys have strippers for hand nailing, but they don't get used often.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
StrippersI never used one.
I laid my hand in the nail bag with fingers loosely curled so palm is up and forward, give the bag a shake, and about 5-6 nails fall into place between the fingers, then finger ( actually thimb) them forward as used.
Could do as fast as a nail gun but takes more energy so more tired at end of day - that is why I like the gun now - less work, but still no faster.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I wondered which old guy was going to mention the strippers.... it was a sad day when they got replaced by those cheap pole dancers. ;-)
I always grabbed 4 or more nails every time my hand went in the pouch. I hold them in my palm and feel for the heads with my thumb and flip them if necessary with the thumb (it's almost orgasmic when you grab a palm full and realize they're all facing the right way) and then force the point between the 1st two fingers. While I'm banging one, the next one is getting pushed into posistion. When I'm adjusting my body position, my left hand is in my pouch, grabbing more nails.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
i used to practise it.... then i got to thinking
wait a minute.... why do i wanna get good at THIS ?
i switched to golfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, Yeah, but can you brag about it like we do?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
brag about golf ?
or thumbing nails ?.... lemme think Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So tell us about your game.You slicing to leeward?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think you just might be overdue for a vacation. :)
84310.101 in reply to 84310.98
I always grabbed 4 or more nails every time my hand went in the pouch. I hold them in my palm and feel for the heads with my thumb and flip them if necessary with the thumb (it's almost orgasmic when you grab a palm full and realize they're all facing the right way) and then force the point between the 1st two fingers. While I'm banging one, the next one is getting pushed into posistion. When I'm adjusting my body position, my left hand is in my pouch, grabbing more nails.
Maybe you need to be more easily amused..........http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
fast as a nail gun?--possibly-but for only a limmited duration.
ya wear out VERY fast that way-and as a matter of record-not likely to keep it up day after day-week after week, year after year
it's the same lesson that john henry learned competing against the steam driver.
hell-at this point my elbow won't let me use even the GUN every day-no way I could still be hand nailing.
never used the nail stripper-but i did use a rubber hip pad- remember those?-before couch cushions/foam rubber on the roof?
man those things were hot,
Stephen
BTw- i still go out from time to time and arrange to embarrass a 20 year old helper every once in a while for a couple consecutive days--- but i contrive not to be installing about the 3rd day so he doesn't see that I am about nackered, LOL
Stephen
>>>>>>>>i still go out from time to time and arrange to embarrass a 20 year old helper every once in a while for a couple consecutive days--- but i contrive not to be installing about the 3rd day so he doesn't see that I am about nackeredYeah, it's funny how paperwork gets real important that 2nd or 3rd day.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
Yeah, I'm all worn out, but it tok thirty years of it.Your elbow - the gun - that gun is about 8or 9 pounds heavier than a roof hatchet...I laid sixteen squares a day average day in day out on walk ons. Personal best was 27 in one day. In all the jobs I worked at wheere I used a gun and compressor, I could never do as welll with the tool as without.On perfect roof, I could probably lay a wee bit faster with the gun for the time it was in operation, but by time you factored in setup and pick up of all the cords, hoses and clearing jams, the total shingles laid was always a bit less per day with the gun - for me. The only time I saw a gun crew laying faster was when there was four guys teamed together. One guy on the gun, two guiys laying shingles in pairs, and one laborer openning bundlesand setting them where needed - this was on apartment buildings where they had runs that seemed half a mile long and that helper kept downright busy hustling shingles to the layers, believe you me. As a team, they were laying ten squares and more per hour and it seemed like the gun never stopped tapping.
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BTW, you got your bags packed for helping roof that castle yet? Seems like Taunton would buy the ticket for an article...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would love to go-and this is actually a decent time for me to go-but the castle job-I believe starts today.
I don't have a passport currently------- so by the time THAT hassle is taken care of----the job would be done.
RE:---Taunton----- I doubt very much if they would buy a ticket.---I have already approached them about an idea for Japan---they were not too enthusiastic.
I have a friend actually who suggested the Japan idea- she saw the Frat house project----teaches Japanese studies at the local university,---lived in Japan for years-thinks she can hook me up with accomodations there in a monastery(LOL) for an article on the timber frame buddhist temples and shinto shrines--some are 1200 years plus apparently
I figure-if they shot down the ticket to japan-they aren't springing for Ireland.
Taunton was actually one of 3 ideas I had to swing this for ireland.
Actually-i have very good friend who emmigrated here from ireland-still owns a house back there ,i believe. in fact---friend and her son---and a sons friend are going back there in 2 weeks.-anyhow--
taunton was one idea- i have 2 others in mind- I just need more lead time to put something like that together- my schedule I can always move around to suit the purpose---------- and personally-i would love to do something like that.
Stephen
Well, that pretty much sums it up--If roofers don't want strippers up there, they are way too focused on blasting nails. That should say something all by itself right?
say again?In English please?
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I personally find strippers too dangerous on a roof. Plus no work gets done while they're up there. And it's usually so hot they get all sweaty.
Again with the Rooftop Bordello?
You're not a forum cop, are you?
Edited 1/22/2007 6:09 pm ET by JDRHI
is that a new line of Assethectural Shingles?
Again with the Rooftop Bordello?
Somehow, it always ends up there...
so astragal... whassup ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Still no resolve to the issue, but there are other things going on at the site. But HO is insisting, no final pay for the roofer if there is no remedy.
I will be sure to let you know more.
OK, I get it now...flushing red in the face...
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Matt, I haven't seen a "nail liner" since I was on the left coast in the late 70's, pretty much were used by guys doing shake roofs since there weren't many 3-tabs being done out there. I didn't even know they came sized for roofers for 3-tabs(the shake roofers were basically 5d gal. box nails). Do you know where I could get hold of a liner tray for asphalts? or even for the shakes? TIA,
Geoff
Getcher strippers here:http://www.abccatalog.com/store/advancedsearchexec.asphttp://logancustomcopper.com
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It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
Thanks seeyou! seeya!
Geoff
Start by getting that passport - gonna need it for something or other soon enough anyways
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maverick... my roofer would fix it or he'd stop being my roofer
if they don't pay attention to detail , then who is ? me ?
open soffits/ exposed tails are a red flag.... heck .. i got burned on this 30 years ago..
another way you get caught out is when they set roof jacks.. they'll drive 8d right thru .. even if you've got a double layer..
we always do a shiner patrol if there are exposed tails or open soffitsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what a bunch of crap !
you guys that are saying the GC is responsible are absolutely correct.. but those that are saying the roofer should have had special instructions for a beadboard area are just wrong
if he's a roofer, he's supposed to be the expert.. he's supposed to do it right... being the expert doesn't mean that he just makes up something that is contrary to the way roofs have been done since they invented asphalt shingles
i just love it when some sub starts tap dancing and BS'g to cover a mistakle.. no matter if it's siding, roofing , concrete , framing.. whatever.. it's either right or it's wrong..
shiners on exposed beadboard soffits are WRONG .. anyroofer that bids this job and doesn't include it in his bid is WRONG
is it more work ?... yup ..
now.. who wants to defend this roofer ?....
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
but those that are saying the roofer should have had special instructions for a beadboard area are just wrong
I agree in principle....but in reality, I think it needs to be pointed out.
As the GC....I don't take any chances. My subs know what I expect when their portion of the job is complete. Because I spell it out for them.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Mike, I know you do more sub supervision than to just tell a guy, "Go re-roof it" and that's it. you and I are in a part of the country where subs are a little better educated and experienced than many other places too.Butr when you get a new sub, you go over a few things with him, right? Like make sure that he knows not to slit your VB if he is the wall board guy? Maybe point out where the pocket doors are? Maybe mark an indicator where the wainscot will start and the rock will end?with roofers, you check a new one to see where he is nailing - not at the top three inches or down on the face, right? That he uses underlayment? Short - you do a little checking and supervision. You don't just turn a new guy loose on the assumption that all will be well....
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Paul, to maintain credibility and good rapor with subs you cannot micro manage the job either.
I am lucky to have hooked myself up with what I consider the best in the area. Still, they are not mind readers, nor do they have all the parameters of the job-and they don't have to. But they do need to know how we expect the end result to work.
I'll walk through with each one and point out any area of concern. Small things like here's the area for the gas and the electric behind or below the range. The drawers go this far back-under the cooktop. The suggested area for hook up is here. I know you know this, merely listing it for those that might not.
But you certainly don't take it to extreme, that's their trade and if you choose the right ones, they will correctly apply it.
Hey, it's finally cold. Can't stick a tee in the ground. You get good roll though.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I'm really burning the wood lately!To micromanage is to do it alone.
but can't expect a job to manage itself either.One unique thing I get here is that this being an island, the guy who is the sub comes out one day to review and set prices etc.
Then he sends his crew when I'm ready. Details I went ovcer with him - half of them he didn't tell his crew, so I have to go over it all and answer same questions again. I could get pissed that I'm doing his job, but that would not gain anything. I'm on site to manage everybody together and giterdone. Lead carp, PM, GC, whatever....
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I'll walk through with each one and point out any area of concern. Small things like here's the area for the gas and the electric behind or below the range. The drawers go this far back-under the cooktop. The suggested area for hook up is here. I know you know this, merely listing it for those that might not.
But you certainly don't take it to extreme, that's their trade and if you choose the right ones, they will correctly apply it.
Well stated!
I'd comment on Mike Smiths system but last time I did he didnt like it so I'm not going there again!
If I had someone standing over me breathing down my back/looking over my shoulder I'd either hand him a tool and put him to work or pack up and leave. :)
I didnt learn this craft to have someone micro manage me. I hope Mike doesnt take this as a diss cause thats not my intent.
Doug
Edited 1/20/2007 9:43 pm ET by DougU
Doug,
Amen.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
new subs have to go thru the process of learning that i'm going to be around and looking over their shoulder and asking questions
it catches a lot of them by surprise.. they aren't used to the GC being on the job and in their face
most get used to it and welcome the extra set of eyes.. those that don't ... well .. there's other jobs out there
it's how i learned 90% of what i know... by watching and asking questions..
too bad for those that don't like it.. the rest of them that stick around figure they're part of the teamMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>>>>>>>>>my roofer would fix it or he'd stop being my rooferYup>>>>>>>>>if they don't pay attention to detail , then who is ? me ?Yup>>>>>>>open soffits/ exposed tails are a red flag..Yup>>>>>>>>>>i got burned on this 30 years ago..Yup>>>>>>>we always do a shiner patrol if there are exposed tails or open soffitsYupLooks like the OP just got an open cornice edjumacation. Either this roofer will work with him to correct the problem and build a lasting relationship or he'll walk. But, since the GC hired him, it's the GC's problem to solve. As you said, you got burned 30 years ago. You haven't repeated the mistake. The OP probably won't either. Who knows about the roofer - we've only heard one side of the story.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
Excuse my ignorance here, but what exactly is an open soffit? I googled the term but got only references to cooling systems in highrise buildings.I thought a soffit was an enclosure of the underside of eaves or an arch or other architectural feature. Are you all talking about the exposed starter boards used on eaves?
BruceT
Bruce,
Yes, open rafter tails , exposed underside of the roof sheathing.
May be a regional term .. "closed" or "boxed" versus "open"
IF THEY HAD ANY BRAINS THEY WOULDN'T BE ROOFERS!!!???
On behalf of myself and all the other roofers out there I am highly offended by your comment. I have known a lot of intelligent, hard working, quality- oriented roofers over the years, regardless of their ability to speak english or not. We never have gotten a lot of respect from the other trades, but weather it is residential or commercial work, everybody wants a nice dry place to work! The problem is not stupid roofers, it's a market driven by price and profit. There are residential shingle companies out there that do high quality work, but they often lose bids to hack outfits offering lower prices and greater speed. Like everything else, you get what you pay for! Roofers that have the skill and personal values to do a good job still have to feed their kids, so they do what the boss tells them to. Contractors that pay their roofers by the square create an environment that promotes fast, sloppy work practices. When a new employee enters this environment, that is how they learn to do the job! Added to the mix are contractors that just don't care about quality, just profit.
I think the GC should have discussed the exposed beadboard situation with the roofing sub prior to any work being done. I also think that the roofing sub is ultimately responsible for the quality, or lack of it, on the job. Shorter nails and a little additional tab sealant on the areas above the exposed soffit should have been factored in to the roofing bid and would have avoided this big mess.
There are a fair share of hacks in all the other trades that are there because of these same market forces. The end result is the bar has been lowered on quality. Most building owners don't expect quality workmanship anymore, and wouldn't be willing to pay for it anyway...just my opinion.
roofguy,
I have a very long career in roofing, and all I can add to that is "Amen, brother."
SamT
My career: in 1953, I handed nails to my daddy as he put the original roll roofing on our house. In '86, I put a thrush roof on a shed. in '99 I roll roofed a shed I built. In '05, I three tabbed a new storage unit/office-to-be.
I have also used an umbrella.SamT
So much of the success of a company is not determined by degrees but temperature. gb93433 83537.46
What you said.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
I got out of roofing some 12 years ago. I was partners with my brother and he has kept the business going all these years. he's a pretty smart fella but the trade itself attracts every indigent in town
there only needs to be one brain on the job. the bulk of the work could be performed by chimpanzees
to be fair I have seen union shops that only employ honest hard working individuals. those shops are far and few between
>>>>>>>>he's a pretty smart fella but the trade itself attracts every indigent in town.Maybe he's not that smart. The trade doesn't attract undesirables, the pay does. I struggled for years trying to find help that wasn't on work release and the key is to pay your help what the job's worth and charge the customer accordingly. >>>>>there only needs to be one brain on the job. the bulk of the work could be performed by chimpanzeesYou must be the chimpanzee, because that statement excludes you from the "brain" job description. My crews are all joint efforts with everybody doing some thinking about how to make the job better, safer, and profitable.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
I didn't take offense at that stupid roofer comment, but laughed. I'm sure you have noticed the great number of guys in the trade that are either low IQ or high on drugs.I probably can't count how many times I heard things like, "you are a pretty sharp guy for a roofer..." in all those years up on top. Just the way it is, so I don't take offense.
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My present roofer is an obsessive who will bore your ear off about every aspect of the job. I don't think I have ever heard him talk about any other subject and if you call him on the weekend he is off with his crew on some course. Fun to have around? Well... Is he a roofer because he can't do anything else? No. He lives for it.
I sure had some fun before I found him though. The best was watching one guy on the crew slowly roll off the roof. His buddies just picked him up, propped him on the front seat of their truck, and continued laying shingles. I went over to check on him and his eyes were rolling back with a slight froth around his lips. He was having a cocaine seizure and they didn't want to lose any time to dealing with him. I had to insist they take him in to be looked at. I don't know where they went but they were back suspiciously fast.
I am not aware of a shingle manufacturer that recomends less than 1 1/4 nail in this area. What happens to the windload rating of the roof when nailed with 7/8 or 1" to preserve beadboard. Mos homes here are decked with 7/16 OSB, and most nails commonly penetrate deck, per manufacturers directions. What you had was a failure to communicate
Edited 1/17/2007 6:43 pm ET by catfish
All the comments are appreciated. Now I know I am asking FINE homebuilding but are ALL roofers, like those who Maverick points out, as insensitive to the detailed carpentry aspect of this all?
Since other options were available to these PRO roofers, why didn't they use one of them?
My roof contractor is treating me like "it had to be this way, there was no other solution."
There were no roof specs because it was an agreement to do a simple roof/re-roof, just like this house had in the past. I would think that they would know the situation by looking around; I know I assumed that much, rightly or wrongly.
I am going to end up having to rebuild these eaves aren't I?
yeah, if you read my last post it looks like its on you. you were on the project from start to finish, you might have given your subs a heads up
just my opinion though
Now I know I am asking FINE homebuilding but are ALL roofers, like those who Maverick points out, as insensitive to the detailed carpentry aspect of this all?
Not all, but yours. There are plenty of people who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an older structure because they just don't get it. It was painful to read your first post because I've seen so many morons screw up old houses and cause permanent damage (and this IS permanent damage) without the slightest clue what the problem is. Kinda makes you wonder how anything that wasn't build after the 50s survives.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
He could have double nailed by hand with shorter nails.
Since other options were available to these PRO roofers, why didn't they use one of them?
First...a question for you.
When you hired this roofing contractor, was he the low bidder?
I am going to end up having to rebuild these eaves aren't I?
How badly damaged is the beadboard?
Can you remove the shigles at the eaves, pull the nails, and caulk/putty, from the underside? (Re-installing the eave shingles using nails of proper lengths?)
If the boards are beyond putty, but still sound, you might consider clipping the nail heads and laminating with new bead board from the underside.
Rebuilding the eaves is going to be a considerable amount of work. I would try and exhaust other alternatives before resorting to a "worste case scenario".
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Well I did not use the lowest bidder but rather the roof contractor that fit my timeframe. I'm sure if I had a relationship with someone better I would have used 'em but I did check and the crews were all busy.
Can you remove the shigles at the eaves, pull the nails, and caulk/putty, from the underside? (Re-installing the eave shingles using nails of proper lengths?)
I will probably have to resort to this. I do think that the wood splintering is not so bad and maybe only need to replace small portions of the actual bead board material.
(Re-installing the eave shingles using nails of proper lengths?)
So the obvious answer is that the proper nail length is something less than the depth of the bead material and the felt and the shingle thicknesses, and I like the idea of double nailing. Is the shingle manufacturer going to accept the work, and will it be warrant-able when I use 7/8" nails (only at the overhangs) as was suggested in an earlier post?
I wish I had a portion of old roof left to investigate, to see how the last roof job was installed (the one that didn't blow caution to the wind and waste the architectural soffit that's installed... I would likely just install the new portion the same way the old roof was installed...but that roof is somewhere in the landfill).
The idea of adding a false beadboard panel to the underside of the open soffits sounds interesting, but I think it would make the rafter tails look too short since those rafters are only 2x4s...
From the POV of fixing it now that the damage is done, I can't see it from here, but my first thought is to use a grinder to take off the protruding tips, bondo to patch, and then repaint the soffits. This would only be beneficial if the HO will accept it and if the T&G is not badly splintered.
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astragal.. he's either ignorant, inexperienced, or full of shid
exposed tails always raises this issue..
in the past with hand nailing the roofers would use stubbies ( 3/4")
for the felt.. and the starter course.. and then switch to 1" for the rest of the exposed tail section
once they got to the field, they's switch back to 1 1/4"
with gun nails yu can still get 1".. and you can get 1" hot dipped galv.. ( special order from Maize ) this is what i'd be using in those areas
yes, the mfr. wants 3/4 penetration... but they do have a special instruction for "Open Soffits"
i just looked it up in my 7th Edition of the Certainteed Applicator's manual... i'd bet that most mfr's have the same instruction..
there are just too many houses that have these esthetic details that must be complied with
in short.. your roofer is wrong
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you Mr. Smith....I hate it when people blindly quote the man. spec. without looking deeper...
just like this house had in the past.
Did the nails show through in the past? Then you should have investigated some way to not have the new nails show. Best bet now is to pay the roofer, then install a false deck of v-groove boards to hide the nail heads. I agree with the customer being upset, and justifiably so.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm going to say that most shingle layers are NOT professional roofers. They are simply piecework guys that need supervision. If you are the GC, there are two ways for you to have got this right up front. One was to clearly detail it in writing with the roof subcontractor before he started. The other was for you to be there supervising him and his crew as it was done.That was your job. To make sure it gets done right. That is what general contractors do to earn their living.Sorry to say - most shingle layers are not the brightest bulbs in the box. Think about it - they work in the harshest extremes of weather all year long in dangerous conditions, dong one of the most strenuous jobs in the trades. It generaly pays piecework rates that atract those who can work extremely hard and pile up the pesos, but who hate ANYTHING that slows them down. They are on that job to do one thing only - cover footage.That is from the installers point of view. If you have a situation out of the ordinary, it is your job to get them to deal with it, however you do it.
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>>>>>>>>>the nails should never penetrate throught the sheathing.According to the shingle manufacturer's warranties that I'm familiar with, the minimum length nail that can be used is 1". Some thicker shingle models require a minimum 1 1/2" nail. The nail is to protrude thru the sheathing a minimum of 1/8" if the sheathing is less than 3/4" thick. These seem to be univeral rules from brand to brand. So, even if the sheathing was 3/4", the 1" nails are gonna blow thru on the drip edge and the starter course. What we've done in the past is to retofit 5/8" bead board between the rafter tails below the existing sheathing to slove the problem. On new construction, the tails get notched 5/8" to accept the bead board below the real sheathing. My take is that this is the GC's problem to solve (he'll know better next time), and maybe the roofer wants to keep his business and will kick in and he'll know better next time as well.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
Most shingle manufacturers require and 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" nail for their shingle. We usually cut the rafter tail down to allow for 3/4" exposed stock and then sheath the entire roof plane with 5/8" advantech. This gives enough thickness to use an 1 1/4" nail with no chance of nail being exposed.
Who is the GC of the project? It is something they should have thought about when building the roof.
I am the GC. I never thought that the roof contractor would do it any other way besides the way it was done in the past (Out of Sight, Out of Mind).
That's a good method Hiker but it wouldn't have worked in our situation.
First, the deck there was existing.
Second, the rafter tails are exposed and only a 2x4 (remember, an older bungalow house) so sawing out 3/4" on the top surface would alter the load carrying capacity of the rafters at the overhangs.
But that is a good techique otherwise.
If the shingle manufacturers require a 1-1/4" nail wouldn't they allow for special exceptions (sf area-wise, with regards to the overhangs we are not talking about that vast of an expanse of roof)?
One of my main questions remains, with regards to older structures, as profressionals, should we or should we not pay attention to the way things were done / finished / accomplished in the past?
When the house was re-roofed in the mid-1980's they used the same type of asphalt shingles but didn't damage the beadboard...
I sympathize with your quandry, but chalk this one up as tuition to GC college. There are 7/8 and 1 inch nails, and I have used them in the past, but not the best of form.
Ideally your roofer would have been aware, but unless it was in your contract, it is an uphill battle.
In terms of fine homebuilding, again, that is the GC's job.
Bruce
I've used roofing nails as short as 3/4"
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Shortest nail? 5/8" on the starter course over 1/2' sheathing , exposed soffit. No problems with uplift or loss of shingles. Worse time I ever had with this type problem was on a 4000 sq. ft roof , exposed faming and underside of roof deck (Commercial Bulding). Roofing contractor's crew ignored the part about "No Nail" (hot mop) roof system. They scatter nailed the base sheet down over the entire roof at something about 12" 0.C.. I spent 2 days with my crew and the roofing crew snipping nails off and then had to pay to stain the underside of the roof dark to hide the defects (it was supposed to have been left natural).
Roofer declared bankruptcy and went under before I could get a dime out of him. Good thing the client was understanding about the whole thing and accepted the repairs without too much complaining.
Edited 1/20/2007 12:54 pm ET by dovetail97128
I have used them as well on 3/4 soffits and they work just fine. I just like know that I do not have to change out nails in the gun depending on location. I stopped when the I hit a whole line the groove. Try making that look pretty on stain grade work.
It is doable, but the overlaying the 1x decking with sheathing of your choice (5/8 ths T&G Advantech) really makes for quite a strong soffit and stabilizes the rafter tails edges better than 1x decking alone.
Bruce
Hoemowner is right.
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Ultimately, this is your fault. While it may be the fault of the roofers actually, you are head honcho.
Solutions? Maybe nails can be clipped ffrom underside with nippers to leave shank flush with wood. Then some minor filling as needed and repaint.... or cut flush and then new beadboard laid into the space, resurfacing and subsequently making thicker the existing beadboard. (be sure that you don't use too long of nails for the new beadboard and then have them sticking through the roof).
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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astragal,
this is a common situation in my area--and pretty simply handled if SOMEBODY plans ahead a little. not to pile on you--but you didn't plan this through particularly well.
sure-a good roofer would have caught this---and it would have become a non-issue---but that's not exactly who you used as a sub.
you tried to secure other crews--but they were "busy"--either they were actually busy--are they don't want to work with you---or they realized what a pain in the rear those beadboard,hand nailed,money and time eating areas ARE.
In my case-- I specialize in old houses-have no interest in new work---and won't go near new work.
Other roofers---usually younger and faster--specialize in new work----but a lot of stuff can slide by in new work----that just won't fly in old work.
It sounds like you used"new-work guys"---when you should have arranged things to accomodate the OLD work guys--who would have handled this correctly.
1) If I encounter exposed decking like this---------- the first thing I do--is find out if the house is going to be vinyl/aluminum sided-if the eaves are going to be enclosed. in the second picture below---one house is still open---the 4 other houses shown have over time enclosed their eaves.
2) if the eaves remain open--then the homeowner and I have a talk about that.-we discuss options---the up and down side to EACH option presented---and there is a down side to all the options. It's your job as the contractor do discuss all this with the homeowner in advance so an informed decision can be made. Part of this is managing expectations-part of it is arrangeing potential painting AFTER the roofing has been done--particularly in the event of a tear-off---part of it is to point out to the homeowner-----if I encounter a freshly painted house--that some amount of paint damage MAY occurr--and in fact is ALMOST inevitable.
3) in the houses I show below--when they were built in the 1920's--they were hand nailed. I assure you--it is almost in-evitable--that in a few places nails protruded-especially through the toungue/groove-or in the bead or V. when new-- I imagine these nails were simply clipped off--the eaves were then painted--and no one was ever the wiser-----------
now however-there is going to be some effect on the paint. those eaves are approx. 16" wide. I often strip them myself, personally with a small bar---and there is STILL some effect on the paint-even prior to the new shingles being installed.
Usually-what I do on the installation is-on each shingle-it's only going to be 16 inches wide. I precut a stack of 16 inch shingles on my shingle shear--carry them up the ladder and balance the stack on my ladder stand-off. I put 2 nails through the outside edge of the shingle-straight down--you will notice that it will be burried in the fly rafter.---in board- I" toe nail" one inward towards the wall so that it will be usually buried within the trim board along the wall and under the eave. THAT nail head will not lie flat--so despite gun nailing-I still have to mash that nail head flat by hand with a hatchet.
If i hand nail-and use a 3/4 inch nail in the center of that span---somewhere along that rake-a nail IS going to blow out the underside-probably in the V groove.
since I discussed this possibility ahead of time with the homeowner we end up with a situation where they were expecting a bit of that---and are happy it only happened in 2-3 places-repaired with touch up paint.-without that prior conversation----you end up in a situation similar to the one you now find yourself in.
i have encountered this type of soffit a zillion times--either working solo, working with my own employees, or when subbing out a roof. Care of those soffits is MY responsibility.
in your case--- it no good claiming the roofer should have, the roofer should have---------------- the roofer DIDN'T---and unfortuneately it was your job to see that he DID.
in all seriousness, Astragal- i have a couple of subs i have used for years-and i STILL won't leave them un-attended with soffits like these-and in fact--since I am there supervising-i figure i might as well climb up there and do 'em myself.( that's part of the reason the sub doesn't say" I am too busy' when I call him with one of these.
BTW--when i have one of these and it is to be subbed out---I arrange MY schedule to accomodate the sub-- i don't just grab whoever is available-- i wait for the crew I want and I plan around THEM-----that way these issues don't come up.
BTW- i didn't want to pile on ya--and cheer up-------- it only takes ONCE to learn this lesson-- and now you KNOW.
Absolutely best wishes to you in the future,Stephen
Edited 1/18/2007 8:01 am ET by Hazlett
Nice post - care to do my roof this Spring ? :)
I am only half kidding. Where u at?
rick D,
i am in akron ohio.
Stephen
ah, too bad, a bit of a drive for you to get here in Boston. Nice post, though.
The roofer screwed up that is a given but this is not an end of the world fix.
You can take a grinder to the nails and patch the splits and then repaint in a days time if you put some effort into it.
Then I would back charge my roofer the days work plus a slight penalty for my customer soothing.
But truth be told my roofer would be the first up there fixing his error and the whole time he would be apoligizing and I would be laughing with him as I painted behind his patching. And you can bet it wouldn't happen again.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Im a roofing contractor If we strip the roof I pull the nails on the bottom and eves, Notice the word I here, Then if we start we use short nails, 7/8 come in coil and do not go through on the heavy shingles, I use a full starter a regular comp upside down, otherwise i use a short hand nail till we get past the overhang,But i cant compete anymore on price as nobody else cares about the details and just slams them on, All this means more effort and to be honest most workers cannot think of this, I have to be there to make sure
well said, bobby, well said!
I imagine you take the time to explain to prospective customers WHY--- you PERSONALLY are doing specific parts of the job--------------- and in doing so---you no longer have to compete on price.
You are working then for a type of homeowner ---that the slam it out guys don't even know exist!!!!!
congrats to you!!!!
( It's a whole 'nuther ball game when it's YOUR name on the sign and YOUR reputation standing behind the work)
best wishes to you, stephen
We use a very professional electrican, but don't let him handle issues of asthetics, some difficult holes for wire runs, any hole in a finished cabinet or woodwork, or any penetrations or sealing issues on the roof.
We use a very professional plumber, but won't let them run pex right at the back surface of sheetrock, cut things they shouldn't, plan their own vent routing, or rely on them to properly set roof flashing.
Our very good excavator isn't given free rein to dig as they see fit.
Framers aren't allowed to run wild and make their own calls on questionable areas, especially on remodels.
With the most detail oriented painters we still let them know the ins and outs of the project and where they can use their descresion and where things need to be done a certain way as per our specs.
Blaw, blaw, blaw...
Even if you hired the best roofer or the kid down the block and get the results you got, it's obviously the roofer's fault.
BUT...you still have the problem to fix.
Should have gave the roofers the heads up on this area, not because you're responsible for the nail length in each guy's gun, but because you're responsible for the final outcome. You don't have to manage the roofers, but now you get to manage the fix.
I can see both opinions, and in a perfect world we could hire good subs that do jobs perfectly.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
idaho.... mistakes happen... all the time
we fix some every day
but instead of a fix.. he's being told that they "had to do it that way"
BS..
this is a failure to supervise: first on the part of the roofing sub
2d on the part of the GC..
but now that the GC has pointed out the problem.. all he's getting is blah, blah ,blahMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
BS..
I agree. Did you think the average roofing crew would resort to anything better?
However, now the situation still exists and what are the odds of the roofers fixing the problem so it looks as good as before? Nil. Sure, the gc can hire someone to fix the problem and back charge the roofers, but a price has still be paid.
When I add up how much time, effort, client bad will, and stress these screw ups cause, it's worth it for me to watch things others may not. I simply don't trust subs until they prove they deserve it.
Hiring some unknown crew for a job with special circumstances and not closely watching them in critical areas is asking for trouble.
Of course it's not our problem, but there is value in reducing the overall screwups on a job.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
on an architectural project, a church with 2x exposed decking and glu-lam beams, the re-roof contractor attached their nailable insulation with nails too long, and busted a bunch through the interior. they fixed it. they had to. should we have had to tell them, "hey, don't pound nails through the interior surface?" i don't think so, but i'm just an architect.
on my house, long after this happened, i forgot to mention to the roofer to use shorter nails. and i now have about 200 nails protruding through my bead-board exposed soffits (1920's house). when painting, i resorted to clipping them with a nail trimmer, after trying to roto-zip them off (tough to get the zipper into those tight acute angeld corners). i still have 1/2 of the soffits to go.
i wish the roofer had caught it, in fact i would believe it to be their problem, but i hadn't caught it until i was 2' away from the soffit painting, which was long after they were gone. you can't tell me that standard procedure is to pound nails through a finished surface, despite what code may or may not explicitly state.
i don't think you re-do the entire above-roof portion. i think you hold back some $$ (unless they are willing to repair the damaged soffits) and have it done by someone else.
my gutter installers did the same thing through my fascia (which was installed by my roofers long before). the pounded their gutter holding nails through the soffit without really paying attention to where the rafter tails connected (dumb asses). but i got $150 bucks off that deal and figured i'd do it myself with the roto-zip in due time (still not enough money off, but next time i'll know about that little detail).
as for the issues regarding length and strength, we generally specify for ice & water sheild 3' from the eave. i like to add an additional strip where there are open rafter tails because of the ice dam issues. considering that you would end up with 5' or so of protection against failure with the ice and water shield, you don't have much to worry about with regard to nail failure of the shingles in those locations.