Alright, I promised to make this one a doozy, so here it goes. <!—-> <!—-><!—->
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Besides gluing the exterior wall sheathing, the homeowners wanted to make a host of other changes. First there were the small things: ‘Move this window over here, move this wall over there, change this rough opening to this size here.’ Then there were the larger things, like: ‘Were not going with vinyl siding now, we’re going with wood.â€<!—-> <!—->
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If I had designed the place myself, or recommended a designer to do so, I would prefer to offer to do a certain amount of small changes for free. Perhaps other contractors would throw them in for free whether they had designed it/recommended a designer for it or not. The reason why I think charges should be considered is because change order paperwork is still needed to keep the original contract up to date. This is especially so for trouble making clients who may become litigious down the road.<!—-> <!—->
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I ended up giving them these changes and others for free, in exchange for more time due to underestimating and weather conditions. Tell me where you think I should’ve drawn the line.<!—-><!—->
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When the homeowner originally called me, he asked me how much it would cost to build a garage. That’s right, the project I’ve been discussing in these “Homeowners from Hades†threads, is the same project I discussed last year in the thread “Estimating Garages.†When he e-mailed me the prints, it really was designed to look like a garage. I was initially too glamour struck by my first project to realize that the simple calculation of feet said otherwise. At 3,000 sf (including upstairs in a 12/12 pitched roof living area), this project was larger than the typical house!<!—-><!—->
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I had initially estimated three weeks to do the project by myself. This was, of course, laughable. Everything takes three times as long when you build alone as opposed to working with a partner. If it didn’t have a roof at a 12/12 pitch, I could have done the frame in three weeks by myself. That is, if I had met certain criteria:<!—-><!—->
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Owned specialized framing tools (such as wall jacks and a beam saw).<!—-> <!—->
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Owned or was able to use a lumber yard that owned a high reach (giant forklift).<!—-> <!—->
–T
Replies
After discussing the project at breaktime I did decide to team up with a partner. However, because of the concrete contractor, the homeowners had moved the start date month from where it was originally–two weeks before signing, and two weeks after signing. This interfered with my partner’s schedule, and he ended up leaving for a trip after a day-and-a-half of work. Unfortunately, he wasn’t much help anyway.
First this “partner†insisted that a double sole plate was needed for trim. I told him that the only real reason for a double sole plate would be to shim the first sole plate perfectly level. That way we could sheath the walls before raising them on an unlevel foundation, and still have them perfectly plumb. He wouldn’t budge. Instead he insisted on a double sole plate, no shims, and we’d be raising the wall after sheathing them as well. This double sole plate was unnecessary, it was not in the print, the homeowners didn’t want it, and it was going to take considerable more time.
I wanted to get the partnership off to a good start, so I let him have his way. Then although I had a bolt marker, he insisted that he could mark the plate by eye. I patiently waited as he drilled every one of them wrong, and then squeezed them into position with his bar clamps. It didn’t stop there; everything had to be his way. He was also very slow. But when the homeowner wanted four 2x stringers supporting his stairway (which he also specified in the print), code required three, and he insisted it should be done with two 1xs, I knew it wasn’t going to work out. “The building code isn’t enforced around here,†he said. That kind of attitude made me sick.
I must say I felt sorry for the guy. He was about fifty years old, and although besides odd jobs he had spent most his life as a truck driver, he really thought of himself as a contractor. In reality, he was hardly fit to be my apprentice. When he came back from his trip, I told him: “Look, were not going to make any money on this job. I’m the one that underestimated it, so why should I drag you down with me?†He was infuriated, and seemed to think he was worth top dollar no matter what the circumstances because he was ‘the brains behind the operation.’ I will never have a partner again! The money for payroll taxes I thought I’d save with having a partner was spent three times over on this guy.
Yeah, I know, this thread should be called “Homeowners from Hades and the Partner that Came Along with Them. Fortunately I had enough foresight to make the partnership agreement for this job only. I was taking a percentage for direct cots, and we were divvying up the rest 50/50 based on man hours invested. I told him I’d give him hours worked (1 ½ days) at my estimated rate, but that if he still wanted in, he was going to be working for peanuts.
Okay, back to the homeowners.
-T
Last spring/summer there was more rain here than I’ve ever seen in my life. Farmers experienced great losses because of flooded crops. When the homeowners first signed the contract, the husband made the comment: “You really should have something in here for the weather.†I explained to him that the contract uses the term “working days,†and that it doesn’t refer to holidays, weekends, weather days or other delays beyond my control. At least, that’s what the book I got the template from said. Since I hadn’t consulted a lawyer with my contracts that time, I wasn’t sure if it would hold up in an <!----><!----><!---->Indiana<!----><!----> court or not.<!----><!----><!---->
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Since the homeowners lived out of state, it would sometimes be raining here and not over there. Him: “What did you get done today?†Me: “It was raining, so I worked on the stringers in my garage. That’s about it.†Him: “What do you mean it was raining? It’s been sunny all day today.†Once I explained the obvious, he would often argue about when he thought it was raining, and when he thought it wasn’t. I found myself wondering: “If this went to court, how would I ever prove my rain days? It would be his word against mine.†Anybody have any Ideas?<!----><!---->
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Meantime he thought I didn’t have any motivation, while I on the other hand couldn’t wait to get through this project because bills were pilling up, and I wasn’t making any money. They had paid me $2,000 upon signing. Once my “partner†was gone, I had to hire a kid on payroll for help. According to our agreement, I was also buying all of the fasteners. A lot of the money was also going to indirect costs or overhead that had completely eluded me during estimating. Because of the rain, his frame was getting wet, so I threw another large portion of the money into payroll to get a jump on the project during the days with milder weather. All the while the wife had been making the accusation: “He’s spending all of our money on tools. That’s why he doesn’t have more money for labor!†Some of the money did go for tools; specifically a nail gun and pancake compressor, my former partner had taken his with him. That, however, paled in comparison to the amount I spent on employees.<!----><!---->-T
I will give these homeowners one thing. I had scheduled the next payment way too far from the first. The next $2,000 was due upon completion of the frame. Once I had the deck laid on the second floor, they paid me $1,000 to keep me going.<!----><!----><!---->
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Unfortunately, it was too late. I had to go back to working for someone ells to avoid bankruptcy. I had planned to find employees and pay my bills and them with my union check. I explained my situation to the homeowners. “As soon as we gave you the $1,000 you decided to walk,†the wife said. “You’re welcome to have the $1,000 back,†I replied. “I’m going to lose more money than that just finishing this project anyway.†Again she repeated, this time shouting louder: “As soon as we gave you the $1,000 you decided to walk!†“I will gladly give you all of your money back just to be through with you two!†I said.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The homeowners from Hades however, had other plans. “We hired you, and we like your quality. If you don’t finish it yourself, we’re going to sue you!†As I mentioned, the husband was a food scientist. The wife just happened to be a nurse practitioner. If they wanted to sue, they would definitely have the money to do it. The neighbors called them DINKS. Supposedly short for: “Dual Income and No Kids.†Around here they have another four letter word for people from <!----><!----><!---->Illinois<!----><!----> that vacation here. I won’t go there–I’m originally from that state myself.<!----><!---->
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The husband wisely asked: “Are we going to get the same quality that we have been if we keep you here on this project?†Reluctantly, I replied with a sigh: “Yes, I take too much pride in my work to do any less.†“But look;†I said, “word’s come around about the other contractors that bid on this project. (The bids were all to bring the project from ground to where I would finish.) I happen to know that they all fell around $70–$80,000 Even at the low end if I took out $10,000 for electrical, $15,000 for plumbing, and the $7,000 you already told me you paid for concrete, there would still be $38,000 remaining. If I subtract one third from that because you’re buying the materials, there’s still over 25 grand left over. You knew you were taking advantage of me when I bid $6,000!!!<!----><!---->
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You will never believe the surprise answer they gave me. The wife could no longer contain herself. It was just like one of those court room TV dramas. I kid you not, she shouted: OF COURSE WE KNEW YOU WERE TOO LOW! DO YOU THINK THE BIDS YOU QUOTED JUST NOW WERE THE ONLY BIDS WE GOT? WE GOT A TON OF BIDS! WE KNEW YOU WERE WAY TOO LOW! YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO BID!<!----><!---->
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That may well have been true, but I was disgusted in the fact that they knowingly took advantage of me, as well as there gross lack of empathy for my plight. While the husband was a food scientist, he hadn’t spent his recent years working with food. Instead, he had been working in the cost savings department. Apparently, he was very good at this job. Obviously, his wife also made a formidable sidekick. I had met the ultimate grinders on my brand knew company’s very first job.<!----><!---->-T
That may well have been true, but I was disgusted in the fact that they knowingly took advantage of me, as well as there gross lack of empathy for my plight.
Good luck with that one in court. You are the tradesperson. They relied upon you for your expertise. If you underbid it, it is entirely your fault - they are in no way at fault for relying upon your competence (at least legally).
Why would you think they are taking advantage of you for accepting your quote?
Not to be unkind, but having read these and several other threads, I'm starting to wonder if it's the homeowners that are the problem.
"Not to be unkind, but having read these and several other threads, I'm starting to wonder if it's the homeowners that are the problem."
If you read the threads, then you know what I'm thinking right now:
Some of us here need to stop being such push-overs. . . every time I hear someone say:
"These aren't the Homeowners from Hades,"
all I hear is, translation:
"These are the very circumstances I deal with all the time because I'm just another builder who's not willing to get off his laurels and change things for the better."-T
If this is what you are hearing from these threads:
"These are the very circumstances I deal with all the time because I'm just another builder who's not willing to get off his laurels and change things for the better."
Then you need to learn to listen better.
all I hear is, translation:
"These are the very circumstances I deal with all the time because I'm just another builder who's not willing to get off his laurels and change things for the better."
Denial is a wonderful thing :-)
It's obvious that you don't follow even good advice from respected people with good credentials. If you had followed the advice given to you by Jerrald Hayes in http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69976.30 and downloaded and used the free tool offered, you would never have thought that two business partners would each earn $25/hr by charging the customer $2000/week.SamT
Well.....I am opinionated but don't lie. I simply don't need to. Why would I lie to help you? Or to offend you? Or to try to irritate you? I was simply trying to give you an example of what I was saying.
You, however, after accusing everyone here who offered advice or critique that didn't agree with what you wanted to hear called everyone arrogant, rude etc. You win. Run your business your way.
We did work for 202 people last year. Made money on all but 4 jobs. I have the books to prove it. You made money working for the union. Now that we have established that I won't bore you with anymore critique or advice. DanT
Why is it "we" keep going back to offer advice and critisim to this guy when he seems so un-willing to take it.
Starting to make me thing "we're" the dumbazz's
Why is it "we" keep going back to offer advice and critisim to this guy when he seems so un-willing to take it.
Funniest/funnest thing going here at the moment.
Until Brownbag starts another thread, we're stuck with this moron. Johnny has some funny stories, wonder how many of those idiots he works with have ended up under the pour?
Joe H
It is sickly entertaining, kind of like that car wreck you don't really want to look at but you just have too....
as for BB, I know a couple of guys I could send down his way if he needs some "fill" but I was under the impression "organic fill" was against the rules...
no matter, we have hogs farms here in KS... Hogs don't leave much DNA
I just spent last night in Kansas. If I had realized you were around I could have asked and we could have laughed at this mess together. I am done with this one. You are right in your assesment as usual, someone else will always be to blame. DanT
what part of KS were you in?
I was in Colorado for a few day with my son. We are driving back on I 70. I can't remember the exact town but we were about 50 miles east of the Colorado border. Hotter than h#ll! 100 degrees when we stopped. Had an O'Reilly's Mexican restraunt there which seemed humerous lol. DanT
Mexican a hint of the Irish!
I'm about 30 miles from the eastern border
i coming from the prospective of i was a sole propriertor of a body shop for many years.
if you bid something too low you cannot hold it against the customer for taking advantage of that fact. if you had me painting your car for a 1/4 of what the guy down the street wanted,thats my fault not yours and once i start it's my problem.
i once forgot to add the total on the parts line into a estimate,guess what ? i got the job,i cussed myself from the get go but it was my fault and no one elses. so i ate it and went on.i still remember it 20 years later,can even tell you the color of the car.
i think from all your threads on this you need to reread them all,this is what self employment is all about,the good deals and the bad deals.if you don't want to suck it up on the bad deals ,just go get a job down at the local quick shop and pick up your paycheck friday.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"i think from all your threads on this you need to reread them all,this is what self employment is all about,the good deals and the bad deals.if you don't want to suck it up on the bad deals ,just go get a job down at the local quick shop and pick up your paycheck friday.larry"
Do you think I should continue making bad deals? Please see my post to "woodturner9" above.-T
you know i posted this yesterday,since then i have had a bad deal.read the post on seasoned landlord.this is the stuff that happens when your out there and self employed. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I've read only part of these 5 threads, "Whiner Amateur Builder Blames HO for His Own Stupidity" but it's been pretty funny so far.
JourneymanCarpenterT(rainee?) has made all the mistakes and is placing the blame on others.
You screwed yourself, do what you can to finish it up and move on.
Maybe you aren't cut out to run a business.
If you can't run the paper, you won't have a business.
I hate paper.
A box of receipts is NOT a set of books.
Joe H
"I've read only part of these 5 threads, "Whiner Amateur Builder Blames HO for His Own Stupidity" but it's been pretty funny so far."
You read only part of these five threads? Perhaps you should know that replying to something before you hear it is considered presumptuousness.
"JourneymanCarpenterT(rainee?) has made all the mistakes and is placing the blame on others."
Not so, but that doesn't change the fact that there are homeowners out there looking to take advantage of builders just as much as there are builders that are trying to take advantage of homeowners.
"You screwed yourself, do what you can to finish it up and move on."
I have moved on. If you would've read everything I said before gracing me with your precious wisdom, you would know that.
"Maybe you aren't cut out to run a business.
If you can't run the paper, you won't have a business."
Da! That's why I closed the business and am working on perfecting the paperwork right now! Oh, wait, you didn't read everything I said, so you didn't know that.
"I hate paper."
Well at least you admit it.
"A box of receipts is NOT a set of books."
And just when I think you're going to show the slightes bit of humility, there you go with your blasted arrogance again!-T
And just when I think you're going to show the slightes bit of humility, there you go with your blasted arrogance again!
How old are you? You have 5 threads of your woe going and you haven't learned a damn thing.
You got more good advice than you deserve, and as far as I can see you are ignoring all of it.
I ran a business for 30 years and I know you don't have what it takes.
Joe H
- edited by JFink 8/23
Reading more of your drivel from the earlier "How much should it cost" thread from last year....
69976.40 in reply to 69976.34
Do I have insurance? Yes. I am, however, biding in a rural area, where no other contractor does, nor are they required to. Nor do any of these other contractors pay taxes as employers. They pay $10-$15 an hour on a 1099 (Ellegal, but the government looks the other way).
If you think the IRS looks the other way, you are in for one hell of a surprise.
Plus interest.
Joe H
"If you think the IRS looks the other way, you are in for one hell of a surprise.
Plus interest."
I have always paid all of my employees legitimately and on W2s. That doesn't change the fact that many others get away with no doing so, and in turn make it harder for honest contractors to sell legitimate bids.
I know this happens because I've called the IRS before regarding a contractor that paid his employees on 1099s. The response I got: "So what. That happens all the time." The people that man the phone for calls to the IRS are irresponsible. Unless these contractors get audited, nothing will ever happen.-T
"I've called the IRS before regarding a contractor that paid his employees on 1099s. "
Why the hell do you think that is YOUR job?
You ain't right bucko...just because you FU a job, don't mean ya need to light a fire somewhere else.
Hahaha!
That "Did I say that out loud?" favorite quote in your profile is quite fitting right about now:
"Why the #### do you think that is YOUR job?
You ain't right bucko...just because you ## a job, don't mean ya need to light a fire somewhere else."
If that's not admitting that you've paid employees before on a 1099, then I don't know what is!
For the record, the only time I ever called was before I joined the union, and a non-union contractor promised to pay me on a W2 but ended up writing me a check on a 1099. That was long before I started this job. If some of you contractors don't like what I did, then don't make me promises you don't intend to keep.-T
Errrr...No. I 've NEVER had an employee, 1099 0r Other.
Maybe you should start a new thread
"What I learned while pretending to be a Contractor"
I've called the IRS before regarding a contractor
Ratting on your competition to level the field?
You can't compete, you've told us that much.
JourneymanCrybaby might be a better handle.
Joe H
JCT,
I've read your responses and can see we have a complete failure to communicate.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I apologize if I was rude, sometimes I don't quite know how to take people. I appreciate guys like you that are willing to share the benefit of their experience online.-T
Some people don't want to learn, don't take advise and think they know it all.
To bad you can't kick people out of the forum to make it more professional and less annoying.Martin
But, it's so amusing.All by himself, this guy is as much fun as the whole Tavern.SamT
Martin (myhomereno) said...
To bad you can't kick people out of the forum to make it more professional and less annoying.
If you look at the bottom left of each post, there's an "Options" button--one of the options is "Ignore this author". If you go into a person's profile, there is a link to "Ignore Posts". Haven't used these yet, but I'm guessing the net effect is the same as removing an individual from the boards.
Kathleen
Yeah, that's a good one. Keep it up, I could use a good laugh.-T
JCT
I am refering to the fact that I read these threads and have a functioning memory. No one is stalking you.
The reason everyone thinks you are young is your handle happens to refer to the beggining of a professional career in carpentry. I happen to assume you are younger than me because I have no problem with any and all phases of carpentry and construction and run a business that grossed about 2.5 mil last year. I am capable of having a mature conversation with others and am 29. Your conversational style reminds me of my little brother who happens to be 17 and has a real need to prove himself to everyone all the time.
If you are having inadequacy issues venting them online may not help. I guess making fun of those weaker and less inteligent than you is an arrogant attitude. Guilty as charged. I can not help it. It only makes it more funny to me to hear that you are so incredibly incompetant and older.
Good luck taking over the Indiana construction market.
Jason
A number of years ago I hired a fellow who had a small trench digging company to dig about 1000' for a utility line. I told him the kind of soil he could count on to find: 10 to12" of topsoil then sandy gravel with cobbles and rocks up to 14" across. That is exactly what he encountered. Well, he dug all one long rainy day and got the job done but he beat the crud out of his machine. When loaded up he gave me his bill.... he had calculated # of hours times an hourly rate. I said no way, that our agreement was x number of dollars times the number of feet dug. He checked his notes and sure enough saw that I was correct. While I was writing out a check for considerably less than his first bill, he remarked (to himself mostly) if he had known how hard it would be to dig, he'd have brought his big machine. I felt genuinely sorry for the guy but had no remorse about what I had paid for the job. He was told of the conditions going in. I suspect that he underbid it even if he had brought the big machine, but I don't know that for sure. What I do know is that HE chose to bring his small machine, HE chose to work alone, and HE set the price. I'm guessing that he thought of all those things too on the long drive back home that night. I'll bet he bid the next job closer to the truth.
"I'll bet he bid the next job closer to the truth."
I don't know what he did, but I'll you what I'm planning on doing. There's a reason why contractors are known for playing hard ball with homeowners; it's experiences like these. I hope some of you homeowners are reading this, because I have some advise for you and your children:
Get all the education you can. Become doctors, become lawyers, make sure you're making the big bucks, because you're going to need it to be able to afford your contractor!-T
Just curious, If they had gone with a guy that bid $100,000 for this same project would you be faulting the contractor for taking advantage of them??
You bid the job too low, period. If they changed for vinyl to wood siding you should have completed a change order, and adjusted you price to reflect the additional costs accordingly.
This thread is titled all wrong.
Tough lesson though.
"Just curious, If they had gone with a guy that bid $100,000 for this same project would you be faulting the contractor for taking advantage of them??"
Yes I would. That is, if the contractor knew he was taking advantage them. At least, I would've before. However, the attitudes of contractors and homeowners I've seen in this regard is changing my perspective comepletely around.
"This thread is titled all wrong."
Please see my post to "woodturner9" above.-T
Re-read Calvins and Joe H's post above, multiply times 2 and you have you're answer. You bid wrong, you listened to no one who tried to help, you didn't believe anything you read and you burned yourself. Those homeowners didn't do anything most of them wouldn't do.
We just did a bath remodel for a guy that although not a friend was a good co-worker of mine 10 years ago. We bid and did the job for $3800, he later told my guy that the other bid was 7k+. We made money but he didn't know that. Do you think he offered me a little of the savings? Nope. And he shouldn't. I am a pro and I live with the number I give. DanT
"You bid wrong,"
Correct.
"you listened to no one who tried to help, you didn't believe anything you read"
Incorrect. While I don't blame anyone ells, your statement is false. You should see one of my posts to calvin above.
"and you burned yourself."
Correct.
Those homeowners didn't do anything most of them wouldn't do.
Incorrect. I have spoken with many builders about this (not just on the internet), and the homeowners attitude and conduct as a whole that I've descrived in these five threads is unussual. You are simply lying.-T
Thanks for the marvelous replies. You guys couldn't bid a dog house if it landed on top of your heads. I have, however, been laughinng non-stop for the past five minutes. I guess you are good for something.
I didn't have time to wait for your replies anyway. I just thought it would have been interestinng to see if anyone had any rules-of-thumb they followed. Me, I just have a feel for how long something will take me. I also like to make $25 an hour.
Since I've only just started the business, I don't have a lot of money to buy materials before charging the customer. The customer buys the materials I tell him to. I charge for labor.
I bid the job $3,000 dollars for labor before I even recieved any replies. I figure the job will take me two-and-a-half weeks by myself. One week with a helper. I also told him I'd buy the nails. And no, I'm not going to sub anything out. Unless you have more work than you can handle, subs are simply for the incompetant.
And if you ever get $99,500 for something this simple, e-mail me so I can look out my window and see the pigs fly.
-T
This kind of attitude going in should have been pointed out to you. Oh, that's right-it was.
Now, instead of learning a lesson of some sort you continue to try to blame someone other than yourself.
I remember you were hog wild copying/posting tips and techniques a while back. Well, keep this in your basket of vast experience.
Best of luck.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Beautiful Calvin, just beautiful.
We'll see Tom. I don't usually like to get on someone here-it's too impersonal. But I get agravated sometimes over the attitudes expressed. If there was some more info in the profiles you could take some of the #### with a grain of salt. But what the heck do I know.
Just a dumb 58 y.o. journeyman carpenter working for myself. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I didn't mean it diparagingly although it did come across that way. It is amazing just how well the current situation was predicted in the original thread. maybe so of the regulars here realy know their stuff. How about that.
I'll tell you what Tom, some of the boys (and gurls) here do know their ####.
If you're old enough and have been in the trade for 30 some years and didn't learn a dam thing, there is no hope. And age doesn't really have anything to do with it really. Experience comes to those who want to learn. Not learning from experience is just time spent.
But then again, some people are just naturals.
View ImageA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
that trucking decal gives away your age! i had one on my van in mid 70's and hadn't seen that for many years. 10 4 good buddy keep those ears on..... larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I agree 100 % If you run your mouth like he did, then you better be able to catch it. I had not seen his earlier post, but sounds like he put on his " I know everything mask to hide his dumd azz kid face".
I have been in business for my self for 15 yrs now. I have always listened to older and wiser carps. Sometimes their cheaper then buying the book to read about it, and they add personal in sight.
He reminds me of what one old carp said, " If you have more aholes then toilet paper, guess what gets deep!
Sounds also like he had someone like himself working for him.
Nailer
With no long term real information it's hard to really know the guy. If you take the name you suppose he's a journeyman in the union. I would have thought that there'd be a certain amount of humility picked up having gone through the apprenticeship.
But hey, if there's a benefit for he and others it's in what is picked up as a result of this story.
Once again proof that I certainly haven't seen it all.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
"With no long term real information it's hard to really know the guy. If you take the name you suppose he's a journeyman in the union."
There's no need to suppose, this is so.
"I would have thought that there'd be a certain amount of humility picked up having gone through the apprenticeship."
Yes, I went through the apprenticeship, the full four years. If I'm so arrogant, then why did I ask for help with the original bid? Why would I also be asking for help with my contracts, policies, and other business controls now? And if I'm so arrogant, why would I be posting all of my mistakes for everyone to see? You are the arrogant one.
"But hey, if there's a benefit for he and others it's in what is picked up as a result of this story."
That was what I had hoped.
"Once again proof that I certainly haven't seen it all."
That's because most people are too arrogant to tell you about this sort of thing - they're too busy either bragging about themselves or critisizing others.-T
"I had not seen his earlier post, but sounds like he put on his " I know everything mask to hide his dumd ### kid face"."
It sounds to me like you should be old enough to know that it's foolish to comment on a thread before reading it entirely. I guess something Calvin said was true, 'it doesn't matter how old you are, some people never learn.'-T
I for one have read all of your threads and made a few comments. I have also followed your progress through the last few years on here and JLConline. I do not think the attitudes here are unusual. You have chosen to show up with an attitude that says hey you guys I'm really smart let me show you something. You often ask for advice, then instead of accepting the advice you feel fits your situation and discarding the rest. You choose to point out how the advice you do not like is irrelavent or stupid, in your opinion. The problem is called petulance. Children will often know little tidbits of information that their parents don't, then point out how they are brilliant they are. They discount the wisdom that comes from years of living. If you want to stop having a target on your back, contribute what you can, ask questions when you need to and graciously accept what ever advice was given.
For the record I think you screwed your customer. You showed up with out the skills and tools to do their job. You used their project as an experiment to learn how to contract. You went in hoping to make the big money you think your employers make. Then hopefully learned there are many more costs involved with contracting. If you have not figured it out yet you should spend more time planning before starting your projects and make sure your bid reflects the time it takes to properly, bid, schedule, write contracts and manage changes. The bids that sound unfair to you may reflect the fact that management takes as much if not more time and energy to do correctly, than the actual work itself.
Jason
"I have also followed your progress through the last few years on here and JLConline."
That's creepy. Who are you, a scout? Stop stalking me!
"You have chosen to show up with an attitude that says hey you guys I'm really smart let me show you something."
That's quite an accusation - an unfounded accusation though.
"You often ask for advice, then instead of accepting the advice you feel fits your situation and discarding the rest."
So? Am I not endowed with free will? Am I to assume that all the advice I receive is from all knowing and infallible individuals?
"You choose to point out how the advice you do not like is irrelavent or stupid, in your opinion."
This is only so when the advise is written in an arrogant tone. Furthermore, am I not entitled to my own opinion?
"The problem is called petulance. Children will often know little tidbits of information that their parents don't, then point out how they are brilliant they are. They discount the wisdom that comes from years of living."
Who's being petulant now? That's the most pampas thing I've ever heard.
And why does everybody think I'm so young? Bob Kovacs called a 'young guy' in the "Estimating Garages" thread. I'm older than he is. I didn't put my age in my profile because it's nobodies business - that, and the creepy stalker thing.
"If you want to stop having a target on your back, contribute what you can, ask questions when you need to and graciously accept what ever advice was given."
If I were to assume all of the advice I receive is accurate, I would be more foolish than you.
"For the record I think you screwed your customer. You showed up with out the skills and tools to do their job."
Not so. When it comes to actual building, I had all the skills I needed. How could I have 'screwed my customer,' when I offered them the option of either a complete refund, or having me hire someone ells to do it, and they insisted on me or they would sue. They decided to keep me on the job, even after they had seen my work. It was their preference, not mine!
"You used their project as an experiment to learn how to contract."
No, I used it to try and start my own business. Learning how to make better contracts is just something that comes along with it.
"You went in hoping to make the big money you think your employers make."
No, I went in hoping that I could offer a quality product (which I accomplished), and make enough money to do it again.
I am so sick of people who assume things that have no basis whatsoever! Do you know what happens when you assume Jason? You make a mule out of you and me - mostly you!
"Then hopefully learned there are many more costs involved with contracting. If you have not figured it out yet you should spend more time planning before starting your projects and make sure your bid reflects the time it takes to properly, bid, schedule, write contracts and manage changes. The bids that sound unfair to you may reflect the fact that management takes as much if not more time and energy to do correctly, than the actual work itself."
Despite your grotesque arrogance, I will agree that this part is good advise.-T
T, you're reminding me of all the times as a child my Dad told me..
"Just shut up and listen, there isn't an excuse for everything" followed by.... "If you're making an excuse for everything maybe you're the problem"
You may have a lot on the ball as a carpenter, that I can't comment on, as a business man or someone trying to be, you're lacking.... a lot....
damn near everytime someone makes a comment, a suggestion, or calls you out on something, you have an excuse or reason that doesn't apply.
You seem to be smart enough to be admitting at this point that you screwed the pooch, not get past your ego and learn instead of making excuses and blaiming the homeowners.
This isnt an easy business... and being a carpenter with a company doesn't make you a business man.
If you want people here to help you, and they can, then stop coming up with excuses and say ok everyonce and a while.
Wether you're ready to admit it or not, the main reason you failed on your first project is because you were in over your head, were not prepared, and not smart enough to know it. Get over it, it happens, just quit bitching out and blaming it on the homeowners.
Homeowners are going to change things
Some are not going to want to pay for it
Yes some are going to have demands you deam unreasonable.
A few are going to try to screw you, a few of them will get away with it.
8/10 really have no idea what they're in for or what to expect and that scares them
some have watched just enough HGTV & DIY.net to think they know what they're doing...
you getting the picture? You're the professional, or supposed to be, so act like. Professionals do not have excuses for everything. Those people are called wanna-bes.
so are you going to learn from this or continue to blaim the Homeowners from hades? Before you answer, step, back, re-read all the responces to you, and notice the fact that most people here think you're in the wrong........
Sometimes, after a particularly difficult series of events has occurred, while trying to accomplish a specific goal, it's a good idea to take a step back and get some distance on what has happened. That appears to be your aim in telling us this long story.
So I've taken some time to offer a little of my experience in hopes that it would shed some new light on your possible options. There's one more option that many good tradesmen have taken, after finding themselves up to their azz in alligators, while trying to get more out of their skills by becoming a contractor.
Many of us don't have enough formal education in business administration, nor the training from a close relative in contracting, to be immediately successful in that arena. As we have all learned, it isn't nearly as easy as it looks.
In fact it tends to consume us all, taking our minds away from every other aspect of life until we are almost obsessed with making it work.
Some people can function well, keep their emotional balance, under that kind of intense mental pressure, and some of us find ourselves wanting to move away from it and get back to the simpler life that we knew as wage earners. Even those who can handle it with ease, find themselves neglecting other important aspects of life.
There's nothing that says that we shouldn't return to working for wages when it's indicated. In my life I've changed roles and trades numerous times, in order to change my life's aims and pursue them with renewed energy. After discovering a passion for flying, I made a number of alterations to my goals in business, so that I could devote more time and energy to that experience.
There's been other times when I've wanted to regroup and refresh my mind, so I took a job for wages and did some small side jobs to give me a creative outlet and add some discretionary income to my bank accounts.
So returning to the carpenter's role, and thereby unloading the immense pressures which can be a big downside to contracting, is often a perfect fit for a lot of guys.
Let me just do my 8 to 4:30 for a while, so I can really relax after work, enjoy my dinner and maybe join some friends for a lively softball game. And if I want to go camping and fishing on the weekend, I can plan that and be gone at 4:30 on Friday.
We only have so much time and creative energy to burn every day. Giving it all to a business which doesn't fit our other needs and higher aims doesn't make much sense.
HVC-
Good post. Good thoughts. Haven't seen the concept of employment posted as favorably here before. I know I've thought about it.
Maybe some people (OP included) will pick up something from it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I know I've thought about it.
I've tried to maintain flexibility in taking care of my financial responsibilities. I realized early on that following adventuresome opportunities would require me to live simply and economically, no big mortgage for example.
So I've never let my ego get too invested in role playing, nor have I allowed desires for material things get in the way of what my spirit reveals to me as a greater life path.
It's a balancing act, one that I equate with walking a wire. A high degree of simple self awareness, impartial and in the moment.
With that and a flexible, joyful attitude, anything is possible and many opportunities will reveal themselves to the person who loves real knowledge gained through adventure.
you know you been in the business too long when, you are on a government miltary base in a meeting with twenty other people on how to build a multi million dollar building and only thing you care about is how to tear your hamburger apart without getting the sauce on your T shirt..Haga su trabajo de fricken
Sorry BB,
According to established military procedure you'll have to be cleared for top secret data access if you want the latest intelligence on that question.
Edited 8/23/2007 4:39 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
With ot without cheese?
What's funny today with you?
This one has run out of steam.
I even went back and read the rest of them all the way through.
Clearly a self inflicted mess, aided by willing HOs.
Joe H
well said
"I get agravated sometimes over the attitudes expressed."
I get agravated sometimes over the attitudes expressed to. Like when I asked for help with a bid, and what I got was ridiculous replies intended to ridicule me.-T
"Beautiful Calvin, just beautiful."
Yeah, if a foot stuck in your mouth is beautiful.-T
It's funny the way you have such a selective memory:
From:
calvin <!----><!---->
2/23/2006 6:58 pm
To:
JourneymanCarpenterT <!----><!---->
(81 of 106)
69976.81 in reply to 69976.80
T, It's refreshing to read a thread and see a decent ending to it. If you read enough here you'll see some pretty heavy discussions............some making sense, some not. Too often the attitude going in is the same going out. This thread has progressed quite a bit.
I admit I sat here and said to myself most of what you have heard thus far. I can see where a newcomer here could easily misunderstand 90% of what's written. Finally someone who can adjust their way of thinking, who'd have thought.
In the beginning I read here for a while b/4 posting and luckily I didn't get lambasted the first day. I've been here long enough now to feel like this site is my seat at the local bar. It's true, they do give a hard stare to whoever walks in the door. But like that corner bar..........people here will stick with you.
Just don't talk politics.
thanks and welcome to BT
"This kind of attitude going in should have been pointed out to you. Oh, that's right-it was."
Yeah, and it changed, as the proof above shows. I also doubled my bid, doubled the time, and enlisted the help of others. $99,500 would still be too much for the work I specified, and if you ever get that much for it you should still e-mail me. Not so that I can look out the window and see the pigs fly - but so I can be informed of the way you're taking advantage of consumers.
Not one of you gave me even a serious round about guess at the bid.
"Now, instead of learning a lesson of some sort you continue to try to blame someone other than yourself"
Not so. If that were true, I'd be continuing doing business under these circumstances instaed of working on my business controls right now.
-T
Edited 8/21/2007 12:57 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
I would not expect someone to be able to type and use the internet who has made the mistakes and problems you have. I said it another thread, sub from builders, you have no business working for owners yet.
"I would not expect someone to be able to type and use the internet who has made the mistakes and problems you have."
Thank you for blessing me with your gracious humility.
"I said it another thread, sub from builders, you have no business working for owners yet."
A year ago, when this job took place, I wasn't prepared to work for homeowners or as a sub, I simply wasn't prepared to run my own business. Right now I'm not in business. I'm preparing for business in the future.-T
What really sucks....I read a cople of your threads and will never get thise minutes of my life back. As one poster said, you screwed a customer by not having the skills and that hits the nail on the head. You are wasting peoples lives with this nonsense.