Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 1999 09:00pm | #1

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   We broached the hot water/ice maker topic a while back. Here goes:

   All water entering the house has both dissolved gases and suspended particulate in the water. The cold water is used much more often than the hot, so the water in the cold lines is "fresher", thus more "contaminates" are in it. The hot water is used much less, thus spends more time in the loop before discharging through a faucet.

   When the hot water is heated in the tank, as it heats it gives up disolved gases. As it sits in the tank, some suspended particulate also drops out and settles in the bottom of the tank. At a basic level you could consider the hot water to be "cleaner" than the cold water.

   In my house, the ice maker is tapped into the hot water line with a run of copper coil tubing. By the time the water from the hot water line gets to the freezer, it is already at ambient temperature. In addition, due to the small volume of water used in making ice, I'm not really wasting tremendous amounts of oil to heat water that will eventually be frozen.

   The cubes made from the "cleaner" water from the hot water line will be clearer, and if you have chlorinated water, will have lost that off-taste.

   Once again, you'll not be pumping 120 degree water into your freezer. By the time it hits the freezer it has lost it's heat. If you have a recirc pump, it may be higher than ambient temp but maybe not by much. If indeed the water from the hot line is entering the freezer at near-ambient temp, you may also get ice slightly quicker as the clean water, with less contaminates, will have a slightly higher freezing temp.

   Gents, as always, MHO.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 14, 1999 10:09pm | #2

   *Hmm, I think the opposite. Do I risk disagreeing with the mighty Mongo... Sigh, here goes.The water in the heater isn't very clean, I've heard many many times. There are a variety of critters who actually like to live in there, especially if you let the water drop below 120°. 120° is nowhere near hot enough to sterilize water, anyway -- many toxic critters can survive even boiling for a while. Most folks don't flush their water heater often enough. If you haven't go drain a gallon into a plastic milk jug and tell me what you think. (What I got out of the heater at a former rental apartment -- ie, never maintained -- looked like chocolate milk, or Charles River water, if you're in the know.)The cold water is used more and has less time to breed critters or soak up lead that may be in your old solder. Eg, the EPA recommends:> Only Use Cold Water for Consumption Use only water from the cold-water tap for drinking, cooking, and especially for making baby formula. Hot water is likely to contain higher levels of lead.The two actions recommended above are very important to the health of your family. They will probably be effective in reducing lead levels because most of the lead in household water usually comes from the plumbing in your house, not from the local water supply. Particulates should be filtered out before hitting the ice maker. If your water is over-chlorinated (ours is, a bath smells like a public swimming pool) then filter it before it goes into the ice maker. Or, God forbid, discipline your family to make the ice by hand with bottled water or, our solution, a $150 undercounter filter from Culligan/American Plumber. They make inline filters just for icemakers, don't know if they're any good. Most people would install one and forget about it until the refrigerator breaks 20 years later. Note that almost all water filters are designed for cold water.Being a lawyer, gotta have more citations: Whirlpool for one offers refrigerators with built-in filtration.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 04:14am | #3

   *Andrew, your concerns are valid. If I had lead contaminants in my water, not only would I not drink it, I wouldn't shower in it due to inhaling the steam. Especially for kids.Same for critters in the system. I've got a whole-house filtration setup that filters everything that comes out of the well, except for the hose bibs. I'm on my own well, but still flush my system and occansionally and test the water. I also have a mini-filter prior to the ice maker.I think the worst thing in the world is to have "bad" water. Been there in previous residences, never again. Certainly, if your water is not good enough to cook with or drink, I'd never consider making ice with it.Are you still up on the muddy Charles? I'll be up there next month at the Beantown MOS.As for forgetting to change the filters, I agree...the only way I've found to "avoid" forgetting is to buy the filters buy the case. Then, they're always on hand when renewal is required.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 05:13am | #4

   *I agree w/ Andrew d.....One reason not to use hot water for anything involved w/ food or liquid consumption is that hot water dissolves & leeches (sp?) far more nasty stuff out of solids in contact with it than cold water. This includes lead, salts (not the NaCl variety), organic solvents,etc. As a general rule, the fewer things dissolved (i.e. in solution) in water put in your body, the better. Warmer temperatures also accelerate chemical reactions in water, producing other by-products. For example, if you have a chlorinated water supply (I don't), warm or hot water would react far more rapidly with other chemicals present in your plumbing. Although the effect on each tray of ice or pot of pasta water is small, the cumulative effect could be significant. I knew my ex-chemical engineering background would come in handy some day!

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 06:49am | #5

   *No longer on the banks of the "muddy" Charles -- if only it were mud! Used to see all sort of things in there, garbage, shopping carts, chopped-up body parts... It was said that if you fell through the ice, you'd get a tetanus shot before hypothermia treatment. A woman who rowed crew told me about a freshman who, um, refilled his water bottle from the river. In the hospital for a week with a triple infection of some sort.Well, lovely memories aside, I'm overdue for visit. For now, I'm an undercover Yankee in the heart of the old Confederacy.We bought a water filter mostly for flavor, second for contaminants that "might" be there. Someone once commented that the shame about the declining quality of city water is that those with enough money buy filters or switch to bottles -- rather than doing something about it. Consider NYC's problems a few years ago with guano contamination (yech). If you're really really paranoid, get a reverse osmosis filter and maybe blast the water with UV too.Interesting to learn that Per Swede is a recovering engineer.

2. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 08:39am | #6

   *Just for the record...engineers don't recover, they just get crankier...ended up w/ a degree in statistics/computer modeling (OR&IE for those of you who care about these things), but I can still explain thermodynamics, oxidation, & molecular structure to my 11-year-old better than all his teachers combined.

3. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 08:47am | #7

   *... and he listens? By now he probably wants to be a rock guitarist.

4. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 08:55am | #8

   *Not yet...fortunately, rock guitarist is not on the "fad-of-the-week/month/year" list yet, but we've also managed to dodge the cabbage patch/furby/nintendo/power ranger crazes so far...my luck will run out eventually. I just can't figure out why he doesn't want to help out w/ the sheetrock & digging of downspout trenches!

5. 
   Guest_ | Feb 15, 1999 08:26pm | #9

   *I have a question about all this - Heating the water will cause the disolved gasses to come out of solution, but where do they go? Do they come out as bubbles when you run the hot water tap? If you cool the water back down, as Mongo suggests with a coil of copper tubing, wont the gasses go back into solution? (Except that ambient temp>cold water temp?)I agree about the particulate component settling out. I also think some dissolved minerals may react and adhere to the hot water heater's innards.I have also noticed that hot water from 'instant' hot water heaters taste better that water from tradiational tank hot water heaters. Perhaps the water has less time to undergo the reactions Per Swede mentioned.

2. 
   mikeM_ | Feb 15, 1999 09:55pm | #10

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   Gases enter solution due to turbulent flow through the pipes. Usually in the well or in the city mains. Once in the house, the flow is much gentler and gases evolve. They exit via the air separator ir through the spigot. There is a very minute amount that reeenters solution. Negligible.

   Once water is heated in the heater, what does it come into contact with? For the most part, copper, solder, and plumbing fixtures. In older housing you may have other issues. Copper and the fixtures are, for the most part, neutral. Solder contaminants have been drastically reduced or eliminated in recent years. Most "bad" things occur in the water heater itself. The more dishes done, the more showers taken, the more the hot water heater is flushed out. That's good. In multi-unit housing with a central supply, or with a poorly maintained system, you can get andrew's chocolate water.

   You're right, particulate does settle out in the heater, or is taken out via the rod in the water heater. One of the more common causes of "bad" hot water is that the sacrificial rod is used up, so the water starts taking on the heater liner/components. Bad water and $$$ repairs.

   Pure water tastes pretty bad. In order to taste good to the average Joe, water needs a certain amount of dissolved salts and minerals in solution. Too much, and you get back into bad tasting water. Often times water out of the hot tap tastes bad. It may not be because it's loaded with junk, it is often due to salts and such having come out of solution.

   Go to the hot tap, turn it on, and fill a glass with water. This is the same water that you'll be putting into your ice maker. It's probably ambient temp, as most systems need to run a bit to get hot water to the tap. Is it clear or cloudy? Does "junk" settle to the bottom of the glass? Taste it. Bland or flat is okay. If it has a mettalic flavor or an actual bad taste, is cloudy, or has junk, you don't want to be drinking it. If you don't want to drink it, certainly don't connect it to your ice maker. If there are problems, address your hot water heater. If not, hitch it up to the ice maker and enjoy.

   I "do" water for a living. There has been much debate on this recently. It all comes down to this: If you feel comfortable drinking the water out of your hot tap, then you can use it for ice. If you don't, not only don'y use it for ice, but fix the problem. Certainly, if in a rental or on city supply your options may be limited.

3. 
   Rob_Tate | Feb 15, 1999 10:03pm | #11

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   During a recent discussion with my plumber he said he always uses the hot water supply side for ice makers and humidifiers-says its cleaner water. Did I just learn something new?