FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

hot water going down

bobtim | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on April 3, 2002 06:01am

I am in the planning stage of a 3 level home. I mentioned to a engineer that I was going to put the HWBB boiler in the 2nd floor. My reasons were design constraints and not really wanting to fight a large flu (oil only in Sitka AK) up all the way from the bottom level. He was concerned that there might be problems pumping hot water down (and cold back up). 

I know that most heat units a placed in the bottom level, but does it really matter where they are located? Can’t the pump easily push the water 8-10 foot down and back up again.

Am I missing something here?

Confused

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. Fred_Lugano | Apr 04, 2002 06:26am | #1

    Dear Tim,

    There is no problem with a boiler high mount. You may see some irrational concern based on the need to mount steam boilers down low so that the condensate could fall back down the pipe.

    The density of water in an operating system will vary less than 1% from the supply side to the return. Not a lot of fight for the pump.

    Regards, Fred

    [email protected]

    1. TLRice | Apr 04, 2002 03:23pm | #2

      Tim, I have to agree with most of what Fred said, pumping water in a closed system is only a function of resistance in the system, not the location of the boiler, in hot water systems. What kind of engineer told you otherwise? Hope he/she is not a mechanical engineer.

      Fred, steam systems,especially low pressure steam systems, require that the boiler (without a condensate return pump) be the lowest element in the system. With a CRP, a steam boiler can be located almost anywhere. This practice seems pretty rational to me.

      As usual, I would like to hear your argument if you believe me wrong on this one.

      Tim

      1. Wet_Head | Apr 04, 2002 05:02pm | #3

        I was al set to jump Fred too.... then I re-read his post 10 times.  He ain't saying what we thought he said.  He is OK.

        1. bobtim | Apr 04, 2002 06:04pm | #4

          Thanks for the answers. It confirms what I thought.  It was a civil engineer who is helping me with a difficult foundation.

          Unconfused

          1. DavidThomas | Apr 04, 2002 08:17pm | #5

            Tim:  Tell your Civil Engineer to stick to concrete.  My registration is in Civil as well, but my trainging was chemical and my practice has been environmental (lots of pumps and pipes).   Every two years when I renew it, they send my a reminder that says (something like), "Registered Engineers are only to practice within their areas of expertise (from training or experience) and may only apply their seal to drawings that were prepared under their direct supervision".  I wouldn't mind a PE shooting from hip and winging it, but ONLY if he/she made it clear that it was their casual opinion and not a professional judgement within their area of expertise.  If you ever have an engineer, doctor or lawyer who never says, "I don't know", fire them.  You (and they) need to know and acknowledge where their knowledge ends and their hunches and guesses start.

            Fred, Tim, and WHW are right.  While there are steam systems that require the boiler to be at the lowest point (and also gravity-driven air systems that must be low), hot water baseboards do not.  The boiler can be anywhere in the loop.  The pump can be anywhere in the loop.  The baseoards can be anywhere in the loop.  Note that the inlet pressure of the pump should be at whatever minimum pressure the pump installation instructions call for (to prevent cavitation at the impellor).  But the components can be sited wherever the installation and maintenance will be convenient, subject to your local code authorities approval.

            David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

            Edited 4/4/2002 1:28:30 PM ET by David Thomas

          2. User avater
            BossHog | Apr 04, 2002 08:33pm | #6

            David -

            Why is it that engineers don't have a seal for specific areas of expertise? Seems like that would make sense...........

          3. DavidThomas | Apr 04, 2002 09:36pm | #7

            Boss:  Engineers have approval for specific areas, but only broadly.  Like Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, Structural, etc.  But within Civil for instance, one finds roadway design, wastewater treatment, reinforced concrete, bridges, dams, environmental clean-up, etc.  I do not answer questions or consult on any but the simplest of concrete design issues.  But I am quite good at cleaning up petroleum from soil and groundwater.  It is incumbent on me to make those distinctions when doing work and in representing myself to clients.  The situation is even worse for lawyers who can pass the bar once and set up shop in any area of law.  At least a Civil Engineer can't stamp a drawing of an electrical panel, pressure vessel or skyscraper design.

            Hospitals have a more sophiscated system for doctors.  In addition to their training, they must be licensed by the state.  And, usually, board-certified in their area (e.g. "American College of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons").  And then they are only granted "priviledges" the for the specific procedures that they have experience and training in.  If you've never done an appendictomy, they won't let you do one in their hospital.  Single-doctor clinics can be scarey because the state doesn't restrict the practioner but relies on the doctor to police themselves (like engineers and lawyers).  So they could add as many services as they wanted, with no new training (but, of course, they shouldn't).  The quick check for the patient is "Are they board certified in their speciality?"David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

          4. bobtim | Apr 04, 2002 11:14pm | #8

            Dave

            My cival engineer was shooting from the hip and I was aware of it. that is why I posted my question here. I have full faith in him.

            On a side note. Will you design me a foundation on my very steep lot if I spill some oil or something on it? You know it's warmer here (lets not talk about rain) than the Kenai.

            Tim H     where the herring season is almost over

          5. DavidThomas | Apr 05, 2002 11:20pm | #9

            Tim:  Every time I'm in Juneau, I go to a toxic waste site on Willoughby (spelling?) by the Fiddlehead Resturant or another one out by the airport.  I keep scheduling some extra time to hike, etc but it usually gets eaten up in canceled flights and diverted airplanes.  But it is a very pretty place when the sun comes out.David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Fast, Accurate Wall Framing

A rear addition provides a small-scale example of how to frame efficiently.

Featured Video

Video: Build a Fireplace, Brick by Brick

Watch mason Mike Mehaffey construct a traditional-style fireplace that burns well and meets current building codes.

Related Stories

  • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding Hazardous Materials in a Fixer-Upper
  • A Classic Paint Sprayer Gets a Thoughtful Refresh
  • Podcast Episode 692: Introduction to Trade Work, Embodied Carbon, and Envelope Improvements

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data