I am in the planning stage of a 3 level home. I mentioned to a engineer that I was going to put the HWBB boiler in the 2nd floor. My reasons were design constraints and not really wanting to fight a large flu (oil only in Sitka AK) up all the way from the bottom level. He was concerned that there might be problems pumping hot water down (and cold back up).
I know that most heat units a placed in the bottom level, but does it really matter where they are located? Can’t the pump easily push the water 8-10 foot down and back up again.
Am I missing something here?
Confused
Replies
Dear Tim,
There is no problem with a boiler high mount. You may see some irrational concern based on the need to mount steam boilers down low so that the condensate could fall back down the pipe.
The density of water in an operating system will vary less than 1% from the supply side to the return. Not a lot of fight for the pump.
Regards, Fred
[email protected]
Tim, I have to agree with most of what Fred said, pumping water in a closed system is only a function of resistance in the system, not the location of the boiler, in hot water systems. What kind of engineer told you otherwise? Hope he/she is not a mechanical engineer.
Fred, steam systems,especially low pressure steam systems, require that the boiler (without a condensate return pump) be the lowest element in the system. With a CRP, a steam boiler can be located almost anywhere. This practice seems pretty rational to me.
As usual, I would like to hear your argument if you believe me wrong on this one.
Tim
I was al set to jump Fred too.... then I re-read his post 10 times. He ain't saying what we thought he said. He is OK.
Thanks for the answers. It confirms what I thought. It was a civil engineer who is helping me with a difficult foundation.
Unconfused
Tim: Tell your Civil Engineer to stick to concrete. My registration is in Civil as well, but my trainging was chemical and my practice has been environmental (lots of pumps and pipes). Every two years when I renew it, they send my a reminder that says (something like), "Registered Engineers are only to practice within their areas of expertise (from training or experience) and may only apply their seal to drawings that were prepared under their direct supervision". I wouldn't mind a PE shooting from hip and winging it, but ONLY if he/she made it clear that it was their casual opinion and not a professional judgement within their area of expertise. If you ever have an engineer, doctor or lawyer who never says, "I don't know", fire them. You (and they) need to know and acknowledge where their knowledge ends and their hunches and guesses start.
Fred, Tim, and WHW are right. While there are steam systems that require the boiler to be at the lowest point (and also gravity-driven air systems that must be low), hot water baseboards do not. The boiler can be anywhere in the loop. The pump can be anywhere in the loop. The baseoards can be anywhere in the loop. Note that the inlet pressure of the pump should be at whatever minimum pressure the pump installation instructions call for (to prevent cavitation at the impellor). But the components can be sited wherever the installation and maintenance will be convenient, subject to your local code authorities approval.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Edited 4/4/2002 1:28:30 PM ET by David Thomas
David -
Why is it that engineers don't have a seal for specific areas of expertise? Seems like that would make sense...........
Boss: Engineers have approval for specific areas, but only broadly. Like Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, Structural, etc. But within Civil for instance, one finds roadway design, wastewater treatment, reinforced concrete, bridges, dams, environmental clean-up, etc. I do not answer questions or consult on any but the simplest of concrete design issues. But I am quite good at cleaning up petroleum from soil and groundwater. It is incumbent on me to make those distinctions when doing work and in representing myself to clients. The situation is even worse for lawyers who can pass the bar once and set up shop in any area of law. At least a Civil Engineer can't stamp a drawing of an electrical panel, pressure vessel or skyscraper design.
Hospitals have a more sophiscated system for doctors. In addition to their training, they must be licensed by the state. And, usually, board-certified in their area (e.g. "American College of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons"). And then they are only granted "priviledges" the for the specific procedures that they have experience and training in. If you've never done an appendictomy, they won't let you do one in their hospital. Single-doctor clinics can be scarey because the state doesn't restrict the practioner but relies on the doctor to police themselves (like engineers and lawyers). So they could add as many services as they wanted, with no new training (but, of course, they shouldn't). The quick check for the patient is "Are they board certified in their speciality?"David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Dave
My cival engineer was shooting from the hip and I was aware of it. that is why I posted my question here. I have full faith in him.
On a side note. Will you design me a foundation on my very steep lot if I spill some oil or something on it? You know it's warmer here (lets not talk about rain) than the Kenai.
Tim H where the herring season is almost over
Tim: Every time I'm in Juneau, I go to a toxic waste site on Willoughby (spelling?) by the Fiddlehead Resturant or another one out by the airport. I keep scheduling some extra time to hike, etc but it usually gets eaten up in canceled flights and diverted airplanes. But it is a very pretty place when the sun comes out.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska