Hot water heater is it going, going gone
Went away for a great vacation came back all was fine except the water was running a golden red. Thought maybe the city flushed the lines, so we let cold and hot run. Soon we realized it was just the hot water. So I opened the drain valve on the heater and let it run not shutting it down or turning the water off, still discolored.
So I now have it turned off, shut the cold off and am draining the tank. The weird thing is the water is uniformly discolored. Not a rush of brown mud at the bottom, just the same through out. It is a gas heater and is 13 yrs old 50 gallon. I will flush it with water by opening the cold once it is completely drained and see want happens
So is the heater failing it was fine when we left for ten days? It is not leaking, it heats just fine, and the cold water is crystal clear just the hot is affected.
Wallyo
Edited 8/24/2008 8:48 pm ET by wallyo
Replies
the water just sitting in the heater lossened the corrosion...
doubt if flushing will help but you may be able to buy a small bit of time...
BTW... do you have galvenized water pipes???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
No on the galvanized, what flows in to the heater is polybute except for a few inches poking out the wall that is galvanized. The rest of the house is a copper and poly mix on the outlet side. I did a very good flush tonight,
Drained it water off,
Turned water on drain open flushed it.
turned water off drained it.repeat three time or so.I got the thick rusty muck to start flowing. not while I drained it but after it was drained and I refilled with the valve open.So the question is am I on borrowed time is the liner cracked and the tank rusting out or was it just tons of sediment from the water supply itself? I had big chunks or rust and sediment flowing out. It is flowing pretty clear now by the way.Wallyo
Edited 8/25/2008 12:25 am ET by wallyo
is there any galvinized on the water inlet/supply side???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Just the 4" nipple tank to flex pipe and 6"" nipple or so from the flex pipe to the poly bute.
Even house to meter at curb is poly and the street supply is plastic. So only about ten inches total is galvanized on the supply side. Our water is slightly hard not bad enough to require a softener just on the edge.Wallyo
Edited 8/25/2008 12:57 am ET by wallyo
I would lean to a new WH...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That is what I was thinking would like to go tankless just was not ready for that yet. It is in the garage never had a drain pan under it should of done that today when it was empty, cheap insurance..Wallyo
Tankless ... a pet pieve of mine right now. IMO they are being oversold as the best next thing since sliced bread. Tankless vs. tank saves energy ... of the standby loss of the tank style ... except that standby loss is often miniscule compared to the total energy you use. I've calculated the standby loss on tanks ... generally very tiny.
The new tankless may have high combustion efficiencies ... but so do new tank style. Tankless often cost more installed ... bigger circuits, bigger gas line, etc. Expensive flues, etc. Tank style will weather a power outage much better.
What I advise my clients: if you use hot water regularly, I would stick with a tank style. If you use it infrequently (e.g. once a week) or if you have a special need (long distance from a water heater to your fixture), then consider a tankless style. If your water heater is located in a cold space, it MAY be an issue, too, but most in unconditioned spaces are often still in a space 55 degF or higher.
Huge energy savings is often claimed and I think they are off base ... maybe savings over your old decrepit inefficient tank ... but not much more than the tank style you would often replace it with. Just food for thought. Want to save on hot water costs? Use 1.5 GPM shower heads, faucet aerators and get a good dishwasher. And restrict your teenagers from 15+ minute showers!!-
I am not sure how much help a pan is under a water heater is. Where and how are you draining the pan? Certainly if you have a trickle of a leak the pan might save you assuming it can drain but if you have a serious leak, even a 2" drain line, gravity driven, is not going to take that much water away if it has to go far. A couple of elbows in a gravity drain will make that water crawl out of there. Be thankful it is in the garage. Other than perhaps staining the floor it shouldn't hurt much. I have my water heater outside after having a catastrophic failure in the bedroom closet where it used to be. (the previous owner's idea of making that hot water come fast to the master bath). I built a little house for it on the other side of the exterior bathroom wall. If it blows now it will just water the grass.
It sounds like you have a galvanized nipple in the water heater connected directly to copper hot water line in the house - a perfect setup for galvanic reaction. You may possibly have rust only in that - by now paper thin - nipple. If so, replacing it with a dielectric nipple will suffice.If the rust is also coming from the insides of the tank, then you would do well to watch for a sale on new 50gal gas water heaters because yours is running on borrowed time.Tankless sounds nice, but they are expensive to buy, expensive to install, unless your gas meter is within a few feet of it and the flue is short, and not much more efficient than new tank heaters. I installed a Bosch unit capable of supporting two showers at once for a family of 4. I had to install 45 feet of 2" and 1 1/4" gas line to get enough flow to support the high BTU demand of the unit and just 7' of double-wall SS flue with silicone seals cost over $300 for materials alone. When it was all over, their gas bills went up, not down, because their teenagers take longer showers now that they don't run out of hot water any more.With moderately hard water, calcium build-up in the heat exchanger tubes may be a real problem with tankless.BruceT
There is copper but it is far away from the heater. On the outlet side it is like this from the heater;
gal nipple, copper flex, gal nipple into wall, (down the wall there could be more gal but I am thinking it is poly) poly bute in the crawl space for 25 feet, then I tied in with copper that goes to an bath addition.Supply to heater is:poly from meter, a few gal fittings for shutoff valve, poly bute through crawl space to wall, ( up wall could be more gal but again I think it is poly, out the wall gal nipple, copper flex, gal nipple to heater.total pipe in the house that is gal is 1-2%. Thanks for the insight on the tankless I never thought on the larger gas line, I have just a 3/4 that tees off to supply both the furnace and hot water heater currently.WallyoWallyo
"So the question is am I on borrowed time is the liner cracked and the tank rusting out "For your reference unless it is droped and dented the liner does not just crack like that.I used to alway think of a glass "lined" WH something like a glass vacuum bottle. But all it is a steal coated with enamel. Much like an enamel coated pan.So it wears away and more likely you hve dozens or hundreds of places where the enamel has worn away and the steel started rusting..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
his hard water may have shortened the life of the tank...
perhaps the enamel was thin in a place or two...
or they missed a spot....
or a combination there of...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Had the water flowing clear went away friday came back monday night, poured a wirlpool bath this morning, The hot water ran a nice shade of orange to amber kinda looked like swamp water with out debris in it. So I am going with who ever said the enamel liner is degrading. That would explain some of the black particles that came out when I last flushed it they were not rust in color just black tiny chunks.Thinking but still on the fence for a Bosch 1600h tank less heater the house is only 1100sf, it vents with regular 4" vent pipe not stainless, there are four of us and no one takes a shower at the same time, our washer is front loader low water use, our Bosh dishwater uses less water also. I can get it reconditioned from these folks they are on Bosch's web site for 449 plus 9.95 shipping. http://www.cpotanklesswaterheaters.com/gas_products/whole_house_tankless/natural_gas/1600h-ng-re.html Any one have any thoughts? Oh the same warranty as a new unit. I wish it was a satisfaction warranty, May have to up the gas line it is 3/4 feeding current H2o heater and 75000 btu input gas furance the line is about 35+ a few feet in length.
The tankless gets away w/out stainless flue? Is it plastic flue? I know a lot of the tankless go stainless 'cause of the potential for both condensation and higher temps.
Remember a tank style doesn't take much to maintain the temp in the tank. You can calc it. If you REGULARLY use hot water (e.g. daily), the tankles buys you a miniscule efficiency advantage over tank style. Tank style will still give you some hot water when the lights go out. There is a time/place for everything. I've got this thing that says they are overselling tankless these days ... but that is just me. They do take up a lot less room ... but are you going to actually be able to use the extra space you gain? All I'm saying is consider all the aspects of both before buying. Sounds like an inexpensive buy that you have a line on, though. Make sure your gas supply is capable of handling it ... not just piping size ... pressure, etc.
Edited 9/2/2008 10:23 pm ET by Clewless1
Their manual say's " A 5 inch diameter gas vent constructed of double wall Type B gas vent is recommended"Which I now have, it also says;"Consult the National Fuel Gas Code if the vent will have elbows or share venting with
another natural draft appliance"So I don't know if I can share it's vent with the furnace vent as the tanked heater now does.Do you know how to get the gas pressure is that something you measure or can the gas company provide it. I never heard of measuring it ones self, I know how to measure a new line not in service even have the tee with gauge to measure it.But that is why I am on the fence if it does not require major changes i.e. a new gas line which even that is not hard to do in my case, i have an attached 2 car garage with attic space no sheetrock on walls the pipe goes up a wall then across the attic then down on the outside of the wall between the two. Also the unit cost is not much more then a regular tanked unit just over 100 difference.Wallyo
Edited 9/3/2008 12:47 am ET by wallyo
Sounds good. Talk to the gas company about the pressure .. and the pipe sizing. You want to be safe ultimately. When I was installing mine in my new house, I sized my pipe wrong (I thought I done it right!!) ... and installed it ... then my options: tear it out or go to a higher pressure gas line (which I did). Does your gas feed a dryer and also a range in addition to your furnace/water heater? How about a fireplace?
Best to just talk turkey with the gas company guy (or BO). I found out you don't want to have [the potential of] several things going and run low on pressure. The gas co. guy will probably eat it up to help you out. He wants things safe, too. It's probably a slam dunk ... but I'm assuming you want to ensure you're safe, too.
Good luck ... sounds like it'll work out great!
The only items in the house that are gas are heat and hot water. The fireplace is right next to the furnace and has knockouts for gas but we are still on wood. Stove is electric, grill is LP.
These items might be changed over to gas but that will be way in the future or wait till the next house.ThanksWallyo
So you may be OK. Technically, to install the unit, you'd need a permit ... good time to check sizing of piping. If you do go gas other appliances in the future, you might size the main line now for the anticipated need later. Just food for thought.
good luck
Checked with the gas company I may be just about 20,000 btu's short. I still need to measure the exact length of pipe I need to clean the garage up and get some stuff out of the way to do that.But two solutions they gave me: one up the piping or add a second line, the second is to convert from a 1/4 pound system to a two pound system. I retest the line to 50 psi over twenty minutes, they adjust the regulator, then right before the source I install a regulator to take it down from pound to oz. The needed regulator is $ 119 that buys a lot of black pipe. and either way the system needs retesting.Wallyo
That's GREAT! Glad you checked. I miss calc'd mine because of me misunderstanding the BO. My layout was WAY complex snaking in through the house and up two half floors ... yadda yadda. I had two choices ... repipe with larger pipe ... leaving me no room for expansion AT ALL ... or go to 2 psi service ... then install regulators at each device (at about $23 each, I think) AND it gave me plenty of excess for future needs. I think I pay a bit more monthly for the 2psi, but it saved me pulling 140 ft of pipe, elbows, etc to up size (not to mention my precision drill job through my joists would require enlarging! and the added labor to rework it. It worked out for me and I learned a lot.
I forgot to add no 110 is needed the ignition is hydro generated that is what the H in model number stands for I am told.
Is there any way you can go with the exterior-mount tankless? Ours is a Rinnai, they have an internal electric heater to prevent freezing in the winter. We like ours, just the two of us, normal showers, dishwashing, and laundry. Yes, it does save money for us.
No kinda of gave that a little thought there is no good wall for it on the back of the house, that I can get piping to with out going through an unheated space. Plus though rare we can get minus 20 don't know about the rinnai but the Bosch handles only down to plus 5.Wallyo
About 20 years ago we got a bunch of rust in the hot water and I figured the water heater was going. Decided to not replace it "just yet", though. Still haven't replaced it.
Hook a water hose to the bottom and let it fly. Everyone should drain their heaters and flush if they sit .
kids need their own 5 gallon hot water heater .
Tim
One technique is to partly drain the water heater (with the heat turned off!) and then repeatedly open and close the inlet valve, using the water to blast loose the sediment in the bottom of the tank.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
I guess in hind sight that is kinda what I did with the flushing . Around here electric was the heater of choice till a few years back then gas took over in new construction. So most of my replacement experience has been electric. But when I drained electric ones they ran dark mud at first then it cleared up as it emptied. What surprised me with mine was that it ran slightly discolored till it emptied. When I opened the supply valve ( after it was emptied) it took a while for water to start flowing then it ran almost black.Wallyo
It sounds like it is a gas water heater, they don't make them like they used to but as another poster said they had problems 20 years ago and did something or other and 20 years later its still going... the moral of the story is it MIGHT last a long time yet but it is probably on its way out like bill said with lots of little places were the enamel is worn off and tank beginning to rust.
when it does go it will go quick, be prepared for 50 gal of water on the floor, the best way to be prepared for that is with the pan installed under it and plumbed to a place it can drain without ill effect.
it would be nice if you have the storage space to have a new one ready to go with all the parts and pieces you will need to make the switch, sometimes new ones are slightly different sizes so you need a piece of adjustable vent, and the fittings (or flex connectors) to make the water connections.
if you have the pan for draining all plumbed and ready to go, and the new one with all the parts ready to go just sitting in your garage taking up space then for sure your existing water heater will last almost indefinitely.
You are right, I manage a triplex two up stairs apts and one down. The heaters were the original ones from 1950 looked like they belonged in a dairy barn. Big white shiny enamel, stood up on nice black legs, dome top, electric came in on the bottom. Well I thought they were to go any day, so I found two on sale, HD was changing brands, called the owner and told him he said go and buy them. We stored them for 2.5-3 years. The old ones still worked we never even changed the heating coils, they were ceramic discs with heat spring wire wrapped around, the pervious owner had left spares we never needed.The owner got tired of storing the back ups and had me put them in before the old ones leaked.The basement apt still has a original cabinet style in the kitchen we have never replaced he has owned the plex for 15 plus years. We should get a back up for that one.Wallyo