I have a 50 gallon direct vent water heater that is now leaking at the top of the tank. I have been told it needs to be replaced. It has lasted only two years and replaced the one before it that lasted three years. Should I get the same thing or look at a tankless hot water heater? We live in Minnesota have a 25 year old house and a family of four.
Thanks.
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2 years and then 3 years? I'd be looking at something other than replacement.. Unusual to have a water heater leak from the top.
I would hope it's still under warranty.
Get a new one! They're more efficient now than two years ago! ;)
k
"just" buy a new one ... he said with sarcasm in his voice (at least I would hope so).
Yeah, sorry. Carry over joke from a different thread...
two or three years twice in a row- wow. that bites.
k
>>They're more efficient now than two years ago! Really? - I haven't seen anything suggesting that.Always willing to learn about this stuff, though....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I'm curious on what the leak actually is.
Is it the tank or a fitting connected to the tank.
Is the water heater a well known reputable brand or a box store brand that you have never seen outside of that store.
I'm surprised no one has raised the "it isn't a 'hot water heater'" issue.
Certainly, when the tank has been freshly filled with cold incoming water - it is not a "hot water heater."
OTOH, in most cases when in the heating cycle, the water in the tank is still "hot" so I personally believe the correct terminology should be "mainly a hot water heater, sometimes a warm water heater, and every now and again a cold water heater" <G>
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
My first though would be that maybe you need an expansion tank in your plumbing system.
BTW i'm still not hearing great things about tankless at least in a family of four situation.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Our leaking heater is a State Select. It is leaking from under the power vent housing. Ilooked back at the Jan. issue of FHB and I see I should have a expansion tank. We have decided to go with a tankless heater. It is a Rinnai R75LSi, it is a liquid propane model. Any suggestions?
Thank you
Just curious direct vent heaters put out, I think a lot of h2o moisture. Could the problem be in the vent, that it (the vent) is not correct or sloped wrong and the tank is rusting from out side in due to dripping condensate.?And isn't under warranty?Wallyo
Edited 1/16/2009 10:13 am by wallyo
The water leaking out is hot water. We had this heater installed in 2000, it started to leak in 2006. It was then replaced under warranty. The replacement which is now leaking is out of warranty because the coverage is dated from when the first heater was installed.
Curious, what's your water source?
If I had a customer with this problem I would be all over my supplier to help me do what was right. I would also want to pull the anode rod and get a look at it.
Tankless water heaters aren't for every home. Be sure to test the water's Ph and mineral content.
We have municipal water. I dont know the ph or hardness
Don't get so excited about a tankless just yet.
What Clewless says in #17 needs to be printed out and put on your computer monitor so you can see it over and over again.
I've had two homes now that I've installed tankless units in. With the right behavior of the occupants, they can save money. But that requires training and a desire to make it the most efficient system - such as trying to save face to your wife after spending $3K on a water heater.
I cannot imagine how one could possibly work with two kids in the house.
Thge guys just finished the install of the Rannai. When three showers are running there is plenty of hot water. I will let you know more as time goes on. I still need to find more onfo about a drain system if the power goes out. My contractor has only done a few of these. Last night here in Minnesota it was -25 so this is a concern.
No fair, I said it first.
I must have my comeuppance, I must have my comeuppance.:>)
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
He's considering and now, it's in!
"He's considering and now, it's in!"Fast considerer. :)Too bad. His efficiency gains, if any, will disappear when the kids become teenagers and find that they can shower as long as they want without running out of hot water.I installed a Bosch unit a couple of years ago for someone with two teenage sons. Needed 60 feet of gas line re-piped at 1 1/4" to handle the 275,000 BTU burner and expensive special SS flue pipes. Ended up being a $2100 water heater and their gas consumption went up, not down.BruceT
I've used a tankless now in two houses. The plumbers that sell them (whom do not have them in their homes), always size based upon the number of baths or the number of showers to be taken at once.
That's reediculous.
The low flow rate is far more a factor in normal usage than the high flow rate.
Why can't people keep their kids from taking too long of a shower?
If they don't get out when you tell them, shut the water off at the main.
If your kids take too long of a shower, that's a YOU problem not a problem with your water heater.
Arguing logic about the issue with us is pointless.
The issue is your family's usage. When, whether it's coordinated with other usage, and waste.
Come back in a year and tell me how much water goes down your drain while you wait for hot water to arrive. And how much time. And then tell me how fast you have to have the water run while the girls are hand washing and rinsing the dishes. Or when you shave. Just how fast does the water have to run to stay hot? And how much goes down the sink unused?
If one allows multiple showers to be taken at the same time as a matter of convenience, that person will have a heck of a time changing behaviors to those required of efficient use of a tankless.
Just remember, every time that faucet is turned on, a huge blowtorch fires up. Sometimes that's good. But many times, it's excessive. Very excessive.
Right now, with my 40 gallon, the blowtorch fires up whether I use hot water or not.
The unit I'm buying has a low end of 11,000 btu's and was specifically designed to be used in conjuction with a recirculating pump. In the home I'm currently in, I have no recirc pump. We REALLY waste the water waiting on hot to show up.
The new house also has pex plumbing run on a submanifold system. (all the fixtures that use hot water run in a direct line to the water heater) All the hot water lines are insulated. My current residence has a traditional "trunk line" type setup, copper, uninsulated, and in an uninsulated crawlspace. The new house is ICF.
I'm expecting a measurable drop in the gas bill, but I'm not spending the $1300.00 on the water heater to get the energy savings, if there. I'm spending the money so we can live our lives on our schedule, not on the water heater's.
I post the actual numbers as they come in, regardless of outcome.
Right now, with my 40 gallon, the blowtorch fires up whether I use hot water or not.
The unit I'm buying has a low end of 11,000 btu's and was specifically designed to be used in conjuction with a recirculating pump. In the home I'm currently in, I have no recirc pump. We REALLY waste the water waiting on hot to show up.
Recirc will cause the unit to fire up also.
The new house also has pex plumbing run on a submanifold system. (all the fixtures that use hot water run in a direct line to the water heater) All the hot water lines are insulated. My current residence has a traditional "trunk line" type setup, copper, uninsulated, and in an uninsulated crawlspace. The new house is ICF.
How are you going to recirc with that "home-run" system?
I'm expecting a measurable drop in the gas bill, but I'm not spending the $1300.00 on the water heater to get the energy savings, if there. I'm spending the money so we can live our lives on our schedule, not on the water heater's.
I post the actual numbers as they come in, regardless of outcome.
I wouldn't predict any savings in either water (except for newer water saving fixtures) of gas with this system.
This should answer most of your excellent questions.
The home is a "split bedroom" design. Along with this design we have 2 baths, on in the master on one end of the house and another at the other end of the house. The kitchen, clotheswasher, and master bath range in distance from 6 ft to maybe 12 ft from the water heater. I'm not too concerned about waiting on hot there.
The additional bathroom is all the way on the other end of the house. The pump will be located in the garage with the water heater. The recirc loop runs from the additional bathroom back to the water heater on a dedicated line.
As far as activating the pump goes I looked at several different options. Timer, thermostatic switch, motion sensor, and even a good old fashioned light switch. Since the kids will be the primary users of this particular bathroom and they, like their Dad, love gadgetry, I settled on a device Michael Chandler told me about. (he has written a few articles for FH, including one on tankless water heaters) When you have need of hot water you simply punch in the desired temperature of the water you want, hit the start button, and it recirculates the water until that temperature is reached. Then you turn on your fixture.
I don't have the brochure for it handy as I type this post but if you want additional details on it, let me know and I'll post a link or something. Price is $300.00 full retail but I suspect my local plumbing supply will get it to me for a lot less. Cheaper still on the Net I bet.
What appealed to me most is only recirculating water when it's needed. The kids never use hot water in the sink so it will only be used with showers.
I try to be an open minded guy but I'm not exactly sure why you keep thinking that my efforts are going to have me using more water and more gas. I still don't see how. I'm curious to know if this is just your instincts or if you can offer some factual basis for your concern...let me know, I AM WILLING TO LEARN. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE.
If you were going to say the payback would take forever....that I might get. But once again, I'm paying the additional money for convenience and just hoping that there will be savings there to offset my upfront costs.
Thanks
OK, my perspective:
1- The heater is going to fire to keep the re-circ line(s) heated. Will cycle more often than a tank.
2- With the "home-runs" how you gonna re-circ all the fixtures? You'll have to insulate all the lines too. Manoblocks should be close to the bathrooms.
KISS (Sounds over-engineered to me.)
In most cases tankless is NOT the right way to go. I look at a number of things:
1) Lifestyle
2) Water usage
3) Water quality - Test Ph and Mineral Content
4) Space available.
5) Venting Options
Right, there are limitationsSome tankless will not work in a power outage situation.In a past 4 day ice storm, no electric, we used firewood for heat and had
hot water. No hot water would have meant wife/girls checking in to hotel for showers.What's the payback time on that?
1- The heater is going to fire to keep the re-circ line(s) heated. Will cycle more often than a tank.
I'm not sure why you say this. As I explained in a previous post, I've opted for a recirc pump that will only be used in the one bathroom that's about 60 feet from the water heater. It's manually activated...since the kids don't use hot water at the sink, only in showers, that's the only time the recirc pump will operate. That's one time most days and every other weekend maybe 3 to 4 times a day. My current tank model fires substantially more often then that.
2- With the "home-runs" how you gonna re-circ all the fixtures? You'll have to insulate all the lines too. Manoblocks should be close to the bathrooms.
As I said in the previous post, I'm really only interested in recirc for the one bathroom. ALL of my other hot water fixtures are within a dozen feet of the water heater...I designed the house this way on purpose.
Please forgive me...I'd like to learn...what's a manoblock?
KISS (Sounds over-engineered to me.)
Ok, maybe having the pump operated by a temperature input keypad is over engineered compared to a simple light switch but nothing else. Submanifold systems are an effective way to shorten the distance hot water runs. I do that in all of my houses. I don't think more pex is over engineered.
In most cases tankless is NOT the right way to go. I look at a number of things:
1) Lifestyle
What kind of lifestyle do you recommend?
2) Water usage
An average of 3 hot showers per day plus one load of dishes and maybe a load of "hot water" laundry every third day.
3) Water quality - Test Ph and Mineral Content
I've never tested our water for this. What do you recommend I look for?
4) Space available.
5) Venting Options
No issue on the final two points. I planned the placement of the water heater to be in the corner of my garage, within a few inches of an exterior wall, so it can be vented out of that ext. wall. (The vent pipe is expensive among other things)
OK, I get it, you have a return pipe from just one shower back to the water heater for the re-circ pump that will be turned on only when you are going to use that shower. Sixty feet of 1/2" PEX holds maybe 3 pints of water. That's what you're going to save per day!
Problem with Home runs: I just took a shower, now I want to shave at the vanity, I have to wait for hot water.
Solution: Shave in the shower.
Has anyone suggested you install a small 4 or 5 gallon 110V water heater close to that bathroom? The hot water feeds through it and then to the fixtures.
"Kids wash with cold water." I gather you're not putting in single handle faucets - 'cause if you ever watch someone turn them on - the handle goes right to the middle position.
OK, I get it, you have a return pipe from just one shower back to the water heater for the re-circ pump that will be turned on only when you are going to use that shower. Sixty feet of 1/2" PEX holds maybe 3 pints of water. That's what you're going to save per day!
Saving water wasn't my primary concern...just one of several. Not standing around was the primary concern. Additionally, you are only considering the water savings from the recirc. The home run saves water to the other fixtures.
Problem with Home runs: I just took a shower, now I want to shave at the vanity, I have to wait for hot water.
While recognizing I've never actually done one of these installs before, this statement makes no sense to me whatsoever. Could you explain? I'm willing to listen.
Has anyone suggested you install a small 4 or 5 gallon 110V water heater close to that bathroom? The hot water feeds through it and then to the fixtures.
I gave this consideration but came down on the side of one of your earlier posts...KISS. As someone who has considerable experience with pumps I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is virtually NO maintenance if sized properly. No matter how careful you are with hot water heater there will ALWAYS be maintenance and occasional replacement. It also heats water whether or not I'm using it. The pump uses WAY less electricity as well.
"Kids wash with cold water." I gather you're not putting in single handle faucets - 'cause if you ever watch someone turn them on - the handle goes right to the middle
You are correct. I'm no fan of single handles...except for showers. Even then I use a Delta model that has a separate temp control.
whaa??????
I think you mean what?the OP said:" 115202.1
I have a 50 gallon direct vent water heater that is now leaking at the top of the tank"He has gone through two tanks I don't care how cheap a tank it is you don't go through two in 6 year period. What I am saying is the installation improper, is the venting wrong is water flowing as condensate back to the top of the tank and rusting it out to in. A glass lined tank does not give out in 2-3 years. rust on the exterior of the steel + pressure could pop it early.Wallyo Just an out of box thought.
Edited 1/16/2009 12:28 am by wallyo
Absolutely. Just that the words you put down in your post didn't make any sense. I was having difficulty ... reread your post I replied to. Maybe I was reading it upside down or something (it can happen that I simply am not processing the words the way they were meant). It seemed that the sentences were incomplete or missing some key words.
I edited my prior post just for you. Had this happen to a gas furnace. Too much to go in to, but the vent was totally wrong, condensate dripped back and with in a few years rusted out six r feet of vent pipe and the blower assist motor. Improper install on the vent by the installer.Wallyo
I'm interested in how the exhaust line for a furnace should be installed. I have a two stage furnace that has PVC exhaust. It goes up into the ceiling into a joist bay 4' above.
Then is goes to an out side wall 22'? away. I have heard water sloshing in the pipe and figure it has a belly in it.
I plan to elevate the pipe in the middle of the 22'. Does any of this sound wrong?
Thanks!
Generally it should slope towards the furnace. But having part of it slope towards the outside is probably OK (though not code), so long as the outlet is high enough above the ground (maybe 2 feet) so that ice won't build up below it and clog the outlet.You definitely shouldn't have water sloshing around in it.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
i am not sure on which way to pitch yours. I got my HVAC guys on mine but they did pitch the new vent rising up from the furnace. The furnace in question only had single wall gal steel pipe, it rusted out, they replaced it with double wall, If my memory is correct, due to the fact it was single wall the water vapor condensed too fast water ran back and caused the rust. Not sure the solution on pvc pipe, I do know that with the original vent in a few years there was no elbow left where it changed 90 degrees from horizontal to vertical. Lucky the elbow was inside the old cement block chimney.People might think I am far out there with the thought that the OP's problem could be improper venting, but natural gas exhaust has a lot of nasty acids in it. Those acids speed up corrosion. Now it could be his water, but to have a tank give out in three years, even the hardest water won't do that. Are his neighbors replacing their tanks every three years also? So I am sticking with something on the install is wrong.Others will chime in with an answer for your case.Wallyo
The problem you describe is why they use PVC flues for condensing furnaces. Which is what the poster you reference was talking about.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I know that is why PVC or stainless steal is used, Popawheelie is complaining of water build up in the middle of the vent line.The OP is talking of tank failure which I think can be due to caustic run back to the water heater.Wallyo
I would recommend that you check the install book for that furnace. It sounds to me like your exhaust line is too long for that kind of pipe. My memory is something like 14' feet with one elbow.
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My Carrier says 30 feet with four elbows.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
That's why I say check HIS specific book for HIS machine. They are all different, just like Dryer exhausts
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll check it out. Thanks!
I agree re: tankless. IMO ... they are being oversold as 'energy efficient BIG savers'. That is just BS. They save ... they have to ... but the savings is small. I don't care what anyone says.
There is a time and place for everything ... even tankless. But, GENERALLY, for a family of 4 using hot water regularly, a tankless offers little benefit and a very high installed cost. A tiny savings and a high first cost isn't justified on the energy economics.
I agree totally.We have a lot of mineral in out water that is hard on copper pipes. about ten years ago, I suggested a tankless for a guest house that would see only occasional use and was a small place that needed all the space I could find.But both plumbers here refused to install one, telling me that their experience with them was a LOT of call-backs due to corrosive buildup in the guts of the things.I've been told that the Rinnai now has a back-flush cleaning procedure to eliminate that problem, but that means somebody has top manually do it once a month. Most owners don't take care of things like that, so it never happens.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
IMO any contractor refusing to install a technology that is in common use has a closed mind that will affect his ability to provide good customer service. While I'm not a big fan of tankless ... primarily due to the hard sell we often see. Everything has its place and tankless is a fairly well proven technology. Maybe the reason he sees callbacks is that he or some other plumber has refused to install properly because the technology is new to them ... they resist updating their education in technology that is different from their 'status quo'.
If you are comfortable w/ their limited ability to give you a comprehensive service, opinion, or point of view, that is fine (i.e. he may be very good at installing and servicing tank style, but it ends there).
A really good plumber will know about all the technologies and be able to work with them. He should also be able to work with you and talk to you so you can make informed decisions.
Many contractors are unable to do this even though they may be good at working with the tools and materials. That's what separates the good ones from the average ones. I'll get off my soap box now.
Thing is - the extra technology and maint required for a house that will be used 12-20 days of the year is not worth the effort and cost
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Got that right, dude. So the question comes back to ... when/where are the good applications for tankless? I tend to [think I am] an open minded guy and that there is usually a good time and place for everything. Always reevaluating applications.
My stepson just switched to one a couple months ago. Only him and her and they don't shower daily, so for them it ought to work out.
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> and they don't shower dailySounds like they're made for each other.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
You're just full of insults today, aren't you? Some of your comments smell more than they do.I am one of those people who needs a daily shower and if I go three days without, I smell like a herd of goats in heat.but I am well aware that some people can go a week before they start to be noticeable. These two are a very lovely couple, work hard, sweat, eat plenty of garlic, and yet I have never notice BO on either of them.
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Boy we're touchy today, aren't we?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Had just come from some other thread where I saw you being insulting there. Figured I's say something before you got your head so far up that it got stuck in that little hole.
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Gimme a break! It was a wise crack, not intended as an insult. Maybe a little clumsy, and for that I apologize.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
OK, You got a break.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
This is a long thread for me to just jump into. I scanned the threads and I don't think anyone mentioned this.
If the water heater is turned on before the heater is full of water you will over heat the top part of the heater and crack the glass lining. This will cause the heater to fail prematurely since it will expose the metal of the tank to the water.
You said the latest heater is leaking from the top. If both heaters started leaking from the top I'd really suspect this was the problem.
If the water heater is turned on before the heater is full of water you will over heat the top part of the heater and crack the glass lining. This will cause the heater to fail prematurely since it will expose the metal of the tank to the water.
Link,
A few weeks ago, I had Lowe's install...reinstall...a new LP gas 40gallon water heater.... Even though I left the hot side of the bathroom sink open to let the air out as it filled, the installer opened the pressure valve as the water filled the new heater as though that was his normal habit/procedure...
Considering where the pressure valve sets, if I had not been there to watch, his procedure leaves a big void that could could certainly overheat as you described...not to mention possibly causing a steam scald....
Poor plumbing on his part or a way to keep selling/installing water heaters????
Bill
Edited 1/18/2009 11:33 pm ET by BilljustBill