Replies

1. 
   Omah | Dec 06, 2006 08:57pm | #1

   Is it possible to get  the guy who installed the equipment to come back and finnish the job?

1. 
   RFVIET | Dec 06, 2006 11:39pm | #2

   HIS CONTRACT IS DONE IM DOING THIS MYSELF

1. 
   Omah | Dec 07, 2006 01:38am | #3

   OK so are we talking about  a recirculating hot water system for instant on hot water at a distant fixture or a heat system for radiant floor or baseboard.?

1. 
   RFVIET | Dec 07, 2006 03:49am | #4

   a reculating system for instant hot water. I want to make a loop. I need to tap in at the farthest faucet and run a line to the bottom of the hot water tank. there is a faucet at the bottom of the tank for a drain. to do it right i should shut the system down drain the tank remove the faucet install a T replace the faucet and hook into the other side. what i am wondering is if i temporalily hook to the faucet with a washing machine hose that hooks to my loop will it work? the faucet and washing machine hose will have a smaller ID. than the 3/4 " pipe im using. i don't want to shut the system down its winter.

    

1. 
   Omah | Dec 07, 2006 06:24am | #6

   Actually you could tap the return line into  the cold water inlet on the hot water heater. Basicaly you need a return line from the furthest outlet on the hot water circuit back to the tank, you need a small inline pump "grunfos" 210ths gal. per minute, and a 'check valve' or 'backflow preventor' in the loop. the pump usually works better on the return side. If your system is all set up and ready to go but is capped off and the pump is not plugged in or hard wired and switched, and all you want to do  is get it going for the night or a few days , I don't think it would hurt any thing to do a temporary hook up to the tank. Think of the hot water loop as an extention of the tank itself, only it needs a small little pump to slowly circulate the water through it, so you can have hot water  on demand any where along the circuit. However  since I have only very limited information about your particular situation and your present skill or knowledge level. It would be very difficult to make the call. The general rule of thumb is that when it it comes to plumbing and electrical it is better not to improvise beyond your scope of understanding. and once you understand the system you usually don't improvise at all.

2. 
   RFVIET | Dec 07, 2006 08:59pm | #7

   I know about the pump and check valve the only thing i,m unsure about is the location of the tie in in the cold water line. the cold water line goes in at the bottom of the tank also drain faucet is mounted next to the cold water intake.  if i tie to the cold water line above the top of the tank i have no problem. however the feedback  water will will probably be warmer than the cold line and would want to go up rather than into the tank.  have you seen a system where the tap in is above the top of the tank  ?

3. 
   Omah | Dec 08, 2006 05:03am | #11

   I hope you're getting your answers and are feeling more confident about the picture. Anyway we usually use two check valves, one on the return line before the pump, this gives me assurance that the flow of water is maintained in the correct  direction and prevents turbulance in that area. The second check valve goes on the cold water line before the tee for the return line before it enters the tank. Make sure all your lines are insulated esp the hots, put a timer on the pump so it only runs at the times your most liklely to use the fixture and enjoy hot water at your fingers instantly. you should also save some money in utilities and water .Later Dude. 

2. 
   plumbbill | Dec 07, 2006 06:21am | #5

   You could tie it back into the drain valve , but I wouldn't.

   Most of those drain valves are cheesy & cheap, & don't like flow in reverse on them.

   When doing a re-circ system you tie the return to the incoming cold water to the tank, you shouldn't have to drain the system.

   “It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

1. 
   RFVIET | Dec 07, 2006 09:08pm | #8

   if i tie above the cold water shut off i would be slightly above the top of the tank. my fear is that the return line water will be warmer than cold water and want to go into my cold lines rather than the tank.  have you seen a system where the return line taps in above the  top of the hot water tank.

1. 
   CapnMac | Dec 07, 2006 10:36pm | #9

   and want to go into my cold lines rather than the tank

   Ah, all you need then is a check valve on the CW side (which is probably a good idea anyway.

   If there's room (yeah, like there ever is for plumbing <sigh>), it'd be CW cut off, check valve, then T for the recirc, then into the tank.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

2. 
   plumbbill | Dec 08, 2006 04:09am | #10

   As cap said you need to install a check valve between your cold main & the tee for the circ line.

   & that is the standard way to do this.

   Now if this is an exsisting system & running a circ line is too much work. Grundfos usa makes a circ system that forces the hot line into the cold line at the remote fixture.

   The crossover goes under the sink, & the pump goes on the water heater.

   Pretty simple to install.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

1. 
   DonK | Dec 08, 2006 06:34am | #12

   Bill - (And others) -

   I have a similar situation. 2nd bathroom and laundry room in the house is about 40-45' from the boiler. It's a 10 y/o Utica with a coil. I could run a line back to the boiler, but would probably need to set up a small storage tank. What size line would one use? Another option would be to put in a water heater right near the 2nd bathroom, probaly a small electric. .Any thoughts? BTW, comfort is of some import. House is going to be rented out in January.

   Sorry for the hijack.

   Don K.

   EJG Homes     Renovations - New Construction - Rentals

    

1. 
   plumbbill | Dec 08, 2006 07:07am | #13

   Does your domestic hot water coming from the boiler coil have a storage tank?

   With almost any system that we put a recirc on , we make the return point of connection at the inlet to the heat source.

   1/2" is standard on a large variety of re-circ systems.

   Some people are fans of the point of use booster heater, but since it's a laundry you have to make sure that the small water heater has enough capacity for a large load of hot water.

   Or the tank will run out, then you have that pipe from the main source with standing cold in it that cycles through the tank faster than it can heat it.

   You end up with luke warm water.

   My main systems have both, but they are in large buildings with different pressure zones----- another story another time.

   On houses I prefer the circ, in general small pumps last longer than a lot of water heaters do.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

2. 
   DonK | Dec 08, 2006 04:36pm | #15

   Bill;

   Thanks for the info on the line size. I remember my dad putting one of those in for somebody about 30 years ago and he was a big fan of flexible copper. I thought he used a smaller line like 1/4". I think he used a gravity type system, don't recall a pump. Then again, I was a lot younger and didn't really pay attention.

   As far as the heat source, it's just the boiler, no storage tank. It works, kind of. The hot water peters out pretty quick in the shower and then the boiler works almost like an instant heater - it just keeps generating hot water for use. But when you are in the shower and there's a delay of 60 seconds or so while everything gets hot, that sucks. I've been thinking about adding another separate heater for a while and kicking around other options, including another small heater down by the second bath.

   I'm still confused, but at least now I know what size pipe to use if I recirculate it. [G].

   Don K.

   EJG Homes      Renovations - New Construction - Rentals

3. 
   plumbbill | Dec 08, 2006 04:48pm | #16

   I'm gonna catch hell from the tankless fans on this , but here is what I would do if it was mine.

   I would put a well insulated small storage tank on the inlet side of the boiler, with a re-circ line coming into the tank.

    “It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

3. 
   BobMc | Dec 08, 2006 07:38am | #14

   http://www.grundfos.com/web/HomeUs.nsf/Webopslag/PAVA-56TMVA

   The above system is designed for a retro-fit when you don't have a return line. 

   I had a Grundfos pump and timer installed, but I did it during a major remodel, so I have return lines, and do not use the retro-fit valve.  I put in one inch feed pipes in the house, so the recirc is an absolute necessity.  Every fixture in the house has hot water in less than 5 seconds (depends on the distance from main feed) between 6 AM and 11 pm.  Then the pump shuts off.  This system is an absolute luxury that has minimal cost.  I turn on my shower, count to four, and step in.

   HTH