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jengle | Posted in General Discussion on July 13, 2003 10:29am

Sorry for the phony subject line.  I just need some suggestions and with all of the traffic, tons of messages never get read.

I am trying to install a vapor/radon barrier in my crawlspace.  It is a very old home with stone foundation.  The crawlspace is very moist right now so I thought I would put down some 6 mil poly.  Can’t figure out why it wasn’t already there.

Problem is, the walls on the interior are stone and thus no where near smooth.  I am assuming this means I will need to parch (think this is the term) the walls with concrete to make a smooth surface to attach the poly going up the walls.   Wondering if this makes sense?  My next question is “aren’t I just moving the moisture to the stone?”  By putting the poly on the ground and running up the wall, seems like the mositure will be diverted to the stone walls.  These walls are already dissolving, not only is the concrete turning into sand. some of the rocks are actually chipping away.

any thoughts<  THANKS

 

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Replies

  1. User avater
    AaronRosenthal | Jul 13, 2003 11:14pm | #1

    I think that every post gets read. No need to do the used car sales pitch to professionals, here.

    There have been lots of posts regarding dmp crawl spaces. Do a search.

    Esentially, you need to bring vapour barrier up to solid: If that means you place a barrier onto the mortar of the stone, or the sill plate and seal it there, you need to decide how it will work best.

    There was also an article in a recent FHB re: this very topic.

    Quality repairs for your home.

    Aaron the Handyman
    Vancouver, Canada

    1. jengle | Jul 13, 2003 11:22pm | #3

      yeah, thanks for the feedback.  I read that article and they looked to have a solid surface all the way around.   I was just worried about the moisture making the walls even worse, since the poly will have big gaps between the wall.

      thanks again.

  2. User avater
    GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 13, 2003 11:16pm | #2

    Now see, you messed up. The only people who are going to read this thread now are those of us who thought you were looking for help setting up an egg hatching incubator.

    Kevin Halliburton

    "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

  3. User avater
    AaronRosenthal | Jul 13, 2003 11:45pm | #4

    OK, well, you have missed a couple of ideas from before.

    Firstly, is there insulation in your joist space? Faced bats or good quality insulation will be vital.

    Secondly, do you have ventelation? You need to have flow-through and perhaps even fans to help move the air.

    Where is it you live? Drying a crawl space here is different than in Iowa.

    How old is the foundation? What kind of shape is it in? Sometimes we need to replace if deterioration is too great.

    If it was my home, I might be tempted to ventelate the crawl space with vents I can open & close from outside, lay 2 layers of 6mm poly vapour barrier, install 3" gravel over that, bring the barrier up the walls to solid cement and glue it into place. Insulate the joists and make sure you have a good access hatch.

    Quality repairs for your home.

    Aaron the Handyman
    Vancouver, Canada

    1. jengle | Jul 14, 2003 12:58am | #5

      There is insulation, bats, but not in the greatest shape.  I think the moisture may have something to do with it.  Open faced that I can see.  Plan to fill in and/or replace as part of task.

      There are no specific vents but there are several small holes, probably from mice or chipmunks.  It also has a 1/8" panel for a door to outside, which I assume leaks like crazy.

      I live in Michigan.  The house is around 130 years old.  This crawlspace is an addition to a basement but probably close to a hundred.   I have the same problem with the walls deteriorating in the basement as crawlspace.  In basement I have de-humidifier running 100%, pain in butt emptying every two days in summer.

      What does the gravel over the vapour barrier do?  I thought if anything you would put gravel under barrier with a passive radon pipe/fan going through barrier and into gravel. 

      thx.

      1. User avater
        AaronRosenthal | Jul 14, 2003 01:13am | #6

        I use gravel to stop vermin from digging into vapour barrier.

        You may want to think in terms of faced urathane bats, R30 (4") cut to fit into the joist spaces with a second vapour barrier under them on the base of the joists.

        You will want to flash/seal the space from vermin, then but in the proper sized vents. Your local utility company can guide you.

        We don't have radon problems here, so it's nothing I can guide you on.

        If you are having problems with the walls, you better get ready to bite the bullet and learn how to build forms.Quality repairs for your home.

        Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada

      2. calvin | Jul 14, 2003 02:41am | #7

        If the walls are deteriorating also, you may have the moisture problem around the perimeter, perking down and under the crawl.  Perhaps you should think outside drainage, them come in with vapor barrier on the ground.  Foamboard from ground to plate might benefit you in a conditioned space.  Vented crawls introduce warm humid air (you already have a saturated air down there) that probably condenses from the cool of the crawl.  I have passive radon drains in the stone under my slab which if needed would run water to daylight.  In NW Ohio.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

        Quittin' Time

        1. jengle | Jul 14, 2003 04:02am | #8

          thx.  i'm from Manchester, probably close to you.

          I actually purchased the rigid form to insulate to the sill.   Problem is the walls, I found it impossible to get the rigid foam snug to walls as they aren't really vertical, more of a Pyramid of stones.  If I try to run up at an angle then making the thing tight is way too difficult. 

          I decided to just put barrier down as a first effort and see how much it helps.

          1. User avater
            SamT | Jul 14, 2003 07:10am | #9

            SO,

            Where the heck are the drumsticks?????Sleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?

          2. User avater
            GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 14, 2003 09:06am | #10

            I'm just betting CAG and Boss Hog are still fuming over the disapointment of opening this thread.Kevin Halliburton

            "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

          3. User avater
            Luka | Jul 14, 2003 09:57am | #11

            Boss and Cag ?????

            Dangit, I expected to see some hot chicks.

            I think I am going to sue !

            Malpheasance in misrepresentation. That's it. That's the ticket ! A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

            Quittin' Time

          4. User avater
            GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 14, 2003 10:24am | #12

            Ok Luka, you asked for it...

            It's a picture of a Transylvanian Naked Neck Chicken

            I know, I know... I didn't believe it either but it's just too bizzare to be anything but true.Kevin Halliburton

            "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 14, 2003 10:34am | #13

            Oh what boredom can do to the mind.

            But I have to admit that you do have a most unusual sense of humor.

          6. User avater
            Luka | Jul 14, 2003 11:50am | #14

            Ok, now I know I'm gonna sue ! A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

            Quittin' Time

          7. User avater
            deadmanmike | Jul 14, 2003 08:14pm | #15

            Uh, is that chick of legal age? She looks like an adult, but...

            Mike

          8. User avater
            GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 15, 2003 01:49am | #17

            I'm not too experienced at pickin' a chicken vixen so I have no idea. I generally don't keep abreast of such things. I was really just trying to egg Luka on a little.

            To tell you the truth, that's the first time I've ever posted a picture like that so I was kind of winging it. I'd hate to get fried for posting illegal chicken pictures on the internet. I'll see if I can get in touch with her and grill her about her age.

            I'll be Chicken back in with the details as soon as I find something out...Kevin Halliburton

            "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

          9. User avater
            GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 15, 2003 02:55am | #18

            Update: The chicken was not forthcoming but she tasted about four years old...Kevin Halliburton

            "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

          10. roucru | Jul 15, 2003 06:29am | #19

            Kevin,

            I am TRULY worried about you! That sun down there in Texas is messing up your mind more than I thought.

            Carry on.Tamara

          11. User avater
            deadmanmike | Jul 15, 2003 06:08pm | #20

            Very punny. :)

            Mike

          12. User avater
            MikeS | Jul 15, 2003 08:06pm | #21

            Kevin,

            Your starting to sound like you've been cooped up a little to long, but it's nothing to get too egg-cited about. 

            Mike

            It's O.k. to think out of the box,           Just don't walk off of the plank!

  4. fredsmart48 | Jul 14, 2003 08:24pm | #16

    You may want to ask your self , How recent did the concrete or the rock decompose some thing that is recent and this next winter frost will cause the rock wall to fall apart? Or has the concrete been that shape for 20 years and the wall will support the house for the next 30 years. If you don’t know,   that is the one question you need to find out. 

    If it is some thing recent you will want to support the addition and remove the wall and put in a new foundation and wall.

    As fare as fastening the plastic to the wall foam in can will work. Clean the wall of dirt. Put the plastic between the wall and a 2 x 6 fill with the foam from the can it will bridge the gap and stick to the plastic. (great stuff or a porduct like that ) 

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