Hello everyone- I was mere moments away from putting an offer in on a cape that was built on a slab in 2005 when my neighbor told me some concerning news.
The house is built on a slope in Jackson, Maine. For a couple years prior to 2005, the owner had all the free fill he could find hauled in and used to level the lot. From what I’m told, a lot or even most of it was filled with wood and tree stumps. And the talk at the time was “I’d never build a house on all that wood, when it rots the house will settle unevenly”.
I have not noticed any settleing, but it is probably too soon for much deterioration of the fill. Now I’ve stalled the offer trying to figure out if it’s just talk or a real concern.
Any and all thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Replies
Is the house built on top of the fill? Or is it just in the lot around the house?
Yes, the house is built on top of the fill (on a slab), as well as a lot of fill around the house.
If it is on top of the wooden fill do not buy it, even at a greatly reduced price.
It used to be done to save money on disposal fees.
That practice is illegal here and for good reason! A cracked slab is the least of it. Houses that were built over tree fill have made the news when they were torn in half by the ground movement due to decomposition.
It often takes decades but it will happen.
Even if it's not under the house but on the property, I wouldn't risk a sinkhole suddenly appearing in my yard that could cause all types of damage and injury...buic
Edited 4/25/2007 3:47 pm ET by BUIC
Good advice. I'm getting similar warnings from others I talk to about this. It's looking like a dead deal, just in the nick of time. I was just reading over the Purchace and Sale and getting ready to sign it when my neighbor alerted me to this issue.
I would still love any more input anyone has about this. I'm curious and I am also forwarding this post to my Realtor who interested as well.
In New Hampshire/Maine it is against code to build a house on a slab and for good reason, frost heaves will crack that baby sooner or later, probably sooner than later. So even if it were on solid ground, I still wouldn't touch it, or be even more suspicious of its soundness.But then, in some places in Maine and northern New Hampshire, to have built on a slab is a thing of luxury, as its not unusual to see houses built on rocks or cement blocks -- placed strategically at the corners.
Frost protected shallow foundations are legal here.
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I'm sure there are where you are. Funny thing, after a few years dealing with frostwalls and foundations only, I visited my sister at her new house in Tennessee. A weird kind of remodeler's culture shock -- every single house in her fairly new town was sitting flat on a slab, with no visible sign of a basement window or even the requisite two or three feet of ugly concrete frostwall under the house. Kinda weird.
Worked on a loghouse last year where in the crawl space there were about 10 stumps not even flush cut. Sort of figures cuz i told the owners to go to town and get me a bottle of Old Crow so I could figure out the nightmare plumbing.Since there were about 20 empties around Id imagined i might have a vision. I also found a bundle of 6 phone lines he ganged together to run the generator juice to the house..The backho guy and thought we cut a line for half the neighborhood till we figured it out.
I lie not. A plumber friend in Oklahoma was trenching for a waterline when he saw blackplastic trashbag debris on the bucket.
He found out that the whole housing development was tension slabs on top of a city dump with only 1, as in one, foot of dirt on top the trash in the yard.
I also have in my mind that seemingly wealthy, but most terribly impoverished class of all, who have accumulated dross, but know not how to use it, or get rid of it, and thus have forged their own golden or silver fetters.
Parolee # 53804
Good God.
"Frost protected shallow foundations are legal here."I misread that at first. I imagine you are talking about a frostwall, which here must be with a footing and a total of 4' down (below frost) minimum.
A FPSF is a typical thickened edge slab with plenty of mineral base, drainage, and foam perimeter insulation to make it possible to do away with the deep foundation. It is even accepted in Canada.
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Possibly what you speak of is what I've heard being an 'alaskan slab'? That is a slab with thicker sides and one side that has a large haunch on one end, supposedly to allow it to move as one piece. I've seen them crack and heave like all heck though around here.We won't do anything on a slab (accept dance?) and most inspectors don't like slabs, so they like us right off, but I know we lose work sometimes, but they crack like hell around here due to frost and water issues (hydro - hydro -- something ?? oh hell). And absolutely no living spaces allowed on slabs, at least in the communities that have inspectors.What does the acronym stand for?
No a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation is a slab that includes insulation besides and under the dirt around the slab.Bascially it is artifical dirt to keep the ground under the slab and specially the edges from freezing.Also includes lots of gravel for good drainage..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Energy Star guidelines here ( a program that gives rebates for energy efficient builds) requires the floor and foundation to be insulated in a similar manner: the walls are insulated on the outside with at least R-5 rigid foam applied and the floor, prior to being poured, is first layered with aggregate, then 4" of sand, then rigid foam, then 8 mil poly, sealed to the poly which is applied to the 2 x 4 framing they require on the inside foundation wall perimeter.Proper drainage under any type of slab, foundation or floor is absolutely essential around here and I've seen improper placement blow that out of the water (literally) as well -- such as too close to a ledgy hill.
No, the difference is the horizontal layer of insulation that is OUTSIDE the foundation.http://oikos.com/esb/43/foundations.html.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the link, but I see that is based on the CABO, which technically NH has stopped following, but I'll have to ask others around here about them, interesting.
The acronym is Frost Protected Shallow Foundation. Google it! there are hundreds of pages and websoites with info and tech bulletins and studies.The basic tenat involves prep work that makes it just about impossible to have water and frost issues. If those in your neck of the woods have such problems, it is because they are doing it wrong, so don't let that prejudice you against the method. Alaskan slab is an appropriate description but not the official one.
Up there, they are prevented from digging deep by permafrost and things are opposite from down here where we dog to get BELOW frost with a typical foundation. With permafrost, you want to stay on top of it, and to insulate under your foundation or the perma will thaw over time from heat of the house, and the house can sink several feet into the ground.
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thanks, yeah I could google it, but I'm too busy here it appears, I can't stop checking my emails. I'm addicted today.
Have you gotten a seller's property disclosure from the listing broker? I'd pass on the problems.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I have gotten the property disclosure, in fact it's been listed 5 times since it was built and that concern is not mentioned on any of the disclosures.
I just spoke with a local earthwork contractor who knows the house well and he believes the pad for the house was done right and the junk was used in and around the yard, but couldn't say for sure. There's enough doubt there to scare me off, but what about the next guy?
"I'd pass on the problems."
If I alert the listing agent of the potential problem, would that help the next potential buyer, or can he choose to keep that information quiet? The house is a REO property, so the original owner is out of the picture, and I expect he would deny any wrongdoing anyway.
A lot depends on the details of the real estate laws in your state.But my guess is that only "information" that the RE agent has is rummor from a 3rd hand source and there would be limit liability.Now this house might be worth it, if one wanted to put in enough effort.But that would require some one willing to gamble enough money to do test borings or convince the band to do so.Once that is done then the truth is now..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'd be careful of what you say. The information that you have is really hear-say from a neighbor who may or may not have the correct intentions. You have only suspicions and no real hard fact. Spreading that too eagerly could lead you into trouble.
Good advice. I should clarify though, when I said;"I expect he would deny any wrongdoing anyway."I meant he probably does not think he did anything wrong, and therefore would deny it if someone said he did. It's a very well build house and everyone agrees he's a talented carpenter. My neighbor has the correct intentions, I was joking about taking my nail gun back (he brought it back this morning anyway), and what he had heard about what was used for fill was confirmed by someone else as well who observed the earthwork as it happened so I sure there is organic material in the fill at this house. What no one knows for sure is if it is indeed under the house. I'm not going to spend the time and money to find out, I'll find another house. I just hope the next guy is informed that there MAY be organinc material under the house.Maybe though, because we don't know, it shouldn't be brought up, which was your point I think... I'm just glad I didn't buy it and hope the next guy does his homework and makes an informed decesion.
Generally, material facts (facts actually known about the property) must be disclosed.Either pass or make a very low offer, IMO.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Get a termite inspecton, all that buried wood is a buffet for them things.
No termites here in Maine. Carpenter ants
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You don't need an inspection for carpenter ants, just look for the trails of little beer cans on the ground. Those will lead you to the carpenter ants if there are any.
Perhaps you could have some bore testing done.
And don't forget to buy that nieghbor a drink!
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I found all this out when he came over to borrow my framing nailer. Heck with the drink, he can keep my framing gun for all I care after what he saved me!
And don't forget to buy that nieghbor a drink!
That's assuming the neighbor wasn't trying to pick the house up for a song via scaring away potential buyers with fabricated horror stories (just looking at all the possibilities here).
jt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
If he moves into that house, I'm definately getting my framing gun back.
I'm not saying he's lying. Probably telling the truth. Just had the thought that if someone wanted to scare off buyers, that is a good one.
IF you tell them the place is infested with termites, they can have it inspected and not find them. You can tell them the foundation is failing, but once again, they can have it inspected. You would need something that they couldn't easily check out, but would put the fear into them for down the road.
I think it would work on me. I wouldn't want to risk it.
jt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
No, I'm sure he's telling the truth, but you're right, that would be a good tactic. And true, partly true, or just a bunch of talk, it worked on me. Not worth the risk, there's a lot of houses out there for me. Besides, I haven't even finished the house I have now!
Thgat is way too common around Maine.
Wait about fifteen years for th esettling to finish and then make an offer.
Not only the sttling from the stuff rotting out from under you, but there are nests of carpenter ants down under there too.
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you have to pass on it.... or when you sell it years from now disclose what you know... which would suck at sales time...
"yeah i want you to buy my house but... this puppy could fall into the earth any day now..."
p
I'm lucky I got out in time, I just worry about the next guy... I'm trying to figure out the best way to protect that person. I'm not concerned with the bank taking a big loss, but it could destroy the average homebuyer like me.
Here's what happened in my lot when what I'm guessing was an old burn pile started to deteriorate. Thank goodness it's just out in the yard and (fingers crossed) doesn't seem to be under the house. Luckily the truck popped right out, but I'm guessing the house would be a little trickier.
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Wow! Thanks for the visual, it paints a picture for me of what this house might look like in 10 or 20 years. Or it might just tear itself in half as someone else mentioned, and I don't have a big enough clamp to fix that...
That sinking feeling happens to me on ocassion around my place, but it's from old stumps rotting away. This property has been logged at least 2x that I can figure before I built.
Hire a drilling company to do some geotechnical borings to look for the presence of wood debris. A few thousand spent now will save you later. In that area you can call Maine Test Borings, or New england boring. You want them to advance using augers and drive spoons every five feet till refusal or at least 20' as they wouldnot be likely burried at a greater depth than that