I am in the process of buying a 130 year old home at the Jersey shore. The house needs to be lifted so a proper foundation can be built. The house has a central fireplace with the “deformation” radiating out from it, like the north, south, east, and west of a compass. The house is wood construction, board and batten exterior with beadboard interior, no sheetrock. Cedar shake roof. Two questions;
Is there any way a handyman like myself should attempt to lift this house. Now before you jump all over me, it is a simple house, 1 and a half stories high, 16 x 24 feet.
Second, does anyone know how to estimate the weight of a house?
Thanks
Kevin
Replies
I paricipated in two house lifts and last spring lifted a garage to pour a slab under it.
The house lifting was labour intensive but not complicated. The guy in charge had a few hundred 6x6 timbers and two 5 tonne jacks. He dug down each side, slid a beam in and jacked each end. He moved side to side lifting in 3 inch lifts. When he had it up 8 feet , new footings were poured. The secret is to have the beam and cribs inside the perimeter or a long enough beam to clear the ends. The two house lifts with new foundations cost about 25 grand each.
Good luck
Cliffy
how close to the Jersey Shore?
I'll help for a coupla weeks this summer for lifetime "time share" bennies!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
My concern is that fireplace. What type of foundation does the chimney have? If it sits on its own foundation then you will be silding the house up the chimney and will have to make sure that you make clearance for that to happen. The main thing is don't be in a hurry. I personaly would be leary of using hydralic jacks as i have seen hydralics leak and come back down. There are screw jacks made just for lifting houses and such type things.
Let us know how you make out with it and if you can get some pictures of it going up. I may end up doing that very same thing to a house that we just bought and plan on restoring.
Dane
We went through a house lift and foundation rebuild just last year. I found the fee to lift the house and drop it back down to be quite reasonable, much less than what one GC tried to charge me. Thus, I would contact a few house-movers re: what the costs are and weigh their experienced, insured, bonded status vs. the few dollars you are likely to save...
That being said, George Nash has published a beautiful book called Renovating Old Houses in which he describes (among many other things) how small and simple homes can be lifted by enthusiastic DIY'ers. I would look through that book before embarking on lifting the house, it's educational to say the least.
Lastly, I would not count on that chimney being around by the time you lower the house. We tried to save ours, to no avail. Age, cracks, and the lift conspired to condemn it. We built a new masonry chimney in its place, which is working great but which also takes up a lot more room in the house than the old single-wall brick chimney we used to have.
Edited 3/8/2005 6:02 am ET by Constantin
As a mason contractor at the Jersey Shore I have been involved in many house raising / moving projects. There are still a couple of real good house movers with years of experience. The fireplace is not a problem if it is solid, as the movers will rig the steel beams under and through the base. The Hydro jacks they use are driven by a jacking machine which keeps the house level as it is lifted.I would, strongly suggest going with the pros ,especially for insurance reasons. Good luck
I totally agree that some chimneys can survive a lift... ours certainly went up in one piece after two I-beams were needled into it. Plus, the lifters were real pros... nothing to complain about there either, with the sorts of gear you're describing.
No, our issue was the "sound condition" of the chimney in the first place. Our old chimneys consisted of two 12x12 passages built as one chimney from single-walled red brick, just 2.5" thick. No tile lining, no metal lining, nothing but exposed brick and mortar. Not the most solid stuff to start with, and 130 years of wear and tear had taken their toll.
The rear chimney was in really bad shape, as it's only load was a gas water heater by the time we bought the house. I don't think there is a quicker way to kill unlined brick chimneys, unless you resort to attaching a condensing heating appliance to an oversized external chimney. Even on the second floor, the chimney bricks were 90%+ saturated with water. Since this chimney was falling apart at the base (with fist-sized holes in it), there was no question that the rear chimney had to go...
Originally, we had planned to reline the main chimney with a Supaflu, Ahrens, etc. concrete system. That way, the chimney would be reinforced from the inside and all the small cracks we could see would be plugged with concrete. There was adequate space inside the chimney for all this, as we only needed three small-diameter flue passages. What we didn't count on was that the one local contractor for such flue-lining systems value prices his wares... I guess the locals living in otherwise good houses are willing to pay steep premiums to not have to open walls to repair/repoint chimneys... thus, the chimney lining quote was higher than a complete masonry rebuild. Still makes no sense to me...
Thanks for the reply. I recently read an article about house raisers in Maine and the price was stated as between 2,500 and 13,000. That seems reasonable. If you can give me a few names and numbers for the pro's you spoke of I'd really appreciate it. The house is located in Surf City, LBI.
Thanks
I dunno....given what's been happening everywhere else at the Jersey shore, sounds like a perfect candidate to be pushed over and replaced with a 5,000 SF McMansion with no style.......lol.
Bob
McMansion with no style
That may not be fair--several McMansions I've seen have "style." It's mostly skin-deep only, and it's usually $10K for a $5K masonry job--but it is a style.
(Of course, it's "cheating" for those of us who know what's behind the skin-deep facade--so the "no style" call is valid; like putting Escalade body work on a rusted out winter-beater s-10 blazer . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm a contractor and have done a fair amount of shoring, but decided to have my own house raised by pros. They have the crane, the cribbing (about 100 pcs. of 6x8-4'), the steel (2 W12x75-48'), the unified jacking pump, and the experience to make a very dangerous job happen in about half a day. Photos here:
http://www.bailerhill.com/316
Thanks David
I have recieved more or less the same advice from others, leave it to the pros. Got a guy looking at it this week. If and when it happens I'll post pictures.
Kevin
I have a couple bottle jacks (20 and 12 ton), 12 ft. of w8x15, and some cribbing. That's fine for minor leveling and piece by piece repairs. For lifting a whole house, even a small one, I'd get a house mover.
-- J.S.
Hire a house moving outfit, this is a small home that can be lifted off the foundation, set on leveled I beams temporarily. Pour the new foundation , set the house back on it. If the weather cooperates, every thing goes well, I imagine you could have the house on a new foundation in one week. The movers will rig two wide flange beams under the house, perpendicular to the joists. Then hang a lifting beam with spreader cables down to the wide flange beams. Utilities have to be removed first.
The lift probably would take one day. Then excavation and new foundation possibly as soon as four days. The day after the foundation is done the house can be reset.
This is faster and cheaper than raising a house . I would not try to raise the house yourself. It is hard to rent the 6x6 cribbing, you may have to buy it. You can rent screw jacks, hydraulic jacks are usually not used. The jacks I speak of are 50 ton jacks ( I think so, been many years since I did this). I imagine hydraulic jacks would work, they are not generally used because of safety. A leaking jack can cause accidents, and screw the whole lifting process up.
Make sure you get a reputable house mover to do this work. My son's neighbor bought a house in Ocean City to be moved to Mays Landing. I never saw a more screwed up house moving job in my life. They chopped holes in the roof, first and second floors to run spreader cables to the wide flange beams. This house was probably a $400,000.00 house before it was moved, worth about half that now.
mike
Long Beach Island?! Thats where I almost drowned surfing at Lavellette when a hellacious rip started taking us to the Azores. Id wait for the next category 5 hurricane... it n might move the house rite off the foundation.
Dont forget the utilities and water and waste lines that are also tied to the house.
No way you want to set the entire weight of a house on a green foundation like that. Hate to say it, but 21 days is the minimum and 28 days is better. I suppose you could use high-early-strength concrete if you absolutely can't wait, but I would talk to someone very knowledgeable about concrete if you intend to fast-track it.
On my project it took a couple of days of work after the raise to get rocks, debris, excess plumbing and mechanical stuff, old structural members, etc. out of the way. We spent another day repiping so the house would be usable during the job. Then a day to excavate, three days to form and tie steel, another day to hand-dig piers and set sonotubes underneath, one day to pour, three days doing unrelated stuff while the mud cured, two days to strip and clean up, and a couple of days to frame the pony walls. The house movers typically give 30 days use of their cribbing.
Dave, 21 or 28 days you refer to is for a slab or beams that are supported by formwork.The foundation can be a grade beam, poured footing with reinforced block walls, or footing with poured concrete walls.Any of the latter will support the weight of any house as soon as the concrete is set, usually 24 hours depending on the temperature when poured.As an example, a footing is poured one day, the next day the walls are laid if it is block or formwork for poured walls is completed and poured as soon as you are done. Grade beam can be poured and weight can go on it next day as well.All of this weight is much more than even a mansion will weigh let alone a 16x24 house.
mike
I dunno... I leave concrete in the forms a couple of days to damp cure, and it's still quite soft after that. I'm talking about poured footing and stemwall, there is almost no block here. When lowering a house you have a substantial chance of one corner touching down first, and a lot of weight going on that corner. Three days after a pour and you're asking for trouble. It's not like ground-up framing, where you are adding one stick at a time... all the weight is already there, including the furniture and pictures on the wall.
After the top of the wall or footing turns white, 24 hours at the most will bring the mix up to 90% or more of full strength. Another day and the mix will be at full strength. Very cold weather will slow the cure time down, not that much longer though. I understand your concerns, I'm only pointing out standard practice throughout the country.
mike
Not standard practice anywhere I've lived. Three days more common. No colour testing, slump and samples or hammer test. Colour can be misleading.'course I'm in colder climates
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I worked for an engineering testing company when I was a kid. Picked up the cylinders at job sites and delivered them to the lab. Hard work, built muscles though.
Some of the information I mention was from this expierence, most from the first 20 years I worked , mostly concrete formwork. Then I got smart and learned how to trim. Concrete, even partially cured can hold a lot more than you think. When the mix turns white the test should be at the very least 90% of the full test strength. Usually 24 hours in mild weather. Sometimes as long as 48 hours in below 15° weather. If the concrete has not turned white in this time , water was added or the slump was too high to begin with.If it was a proper mix it will still come up to strength, just take a little longer.When a cylinder does not come up to strength, engineers have to be consulted. Naturally I do not expect this on residential work, I base my knowledge on commercial work.
As far as weight going on a new foundation, the footing and or wall can take a heck of a lot more weight than even the largest house will have. It is usual practice to pour a footing on Monday and pour the walls on Tuesday or as soon as the forms are ready. Concrete weighs about 165 lbs per cubic foot wet, 145lbs per cubic foot when dry.An 8" thick wall ,8'-0" high then weighs about 1/2 ton wet per foot of wall.870lbs dry per foot of wall. A lot more than a 16x24 house . Never tried to figure what an average house weighs per lineal foot. I imagine I could carry that amount of weight on my shoulder and walk with it.
mike
Well, the house movers told me that the house (gutted) probably weighed about 55 tons as the house + steel was 65 tons. Our perimeter at that point was about 150 feet long. Extrapolated, that's about 806lb/ft of sill. Ouch!
I don't disagree with your given specifics. it is the more generic rules of thimb that can be dangerous to folow without background of experience and judgement. Worst sin I've seen re crete is adding too much water
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think it depends on a number of factors.
We poured footings around the perimeter of the house and strip footings inside. This made placing the steel posts supporting the main beam very flexible. The footings had a lot of time to dry while the wall forms were being built and the rebar was placed. We put in a lot of #4-60, even though this is a residential application (where it is usually not needed) because the site is full of heavy clay and I don't want to deal with a broken foundation again.
We used a pebble mix and super-plasticizer for the wall forms due to the many cutouts for the house-jacking i-Beams. That meant we only had to lug a 3" pipe instead of a 5" pipe for regular 3/4" mix. Also, we had a concrete testing agency on hand to test the slump, strength, etc. of the concrete before it went in. Keep the suppliers honest. We kept the wall forms on for up to three days, if I recall correctly, to ensure OK curing despite the June heat.
Within days, the core samples that the testing agency had taken home with them were at 3,500 psi, the spec strength of the foundation wall. If you test, you know when the concrete is hard enough to let the house back down. The benefit may be worth the price.
No disagreement here. Sampling and testing concrete would be prohibitively expensive where I am (no one local does it), so we don't do that, although it would lend a large measure of safety if you're trying to load a foundation soon after the pour.
HI Kevin,
Worked on one of these this past spring. Do you really want to "lift" the house? Or do you mean that you want to just support it while a new foundation is built?
That's what we did. Just support it and then you can rebuild the foundation. If you attempt to lift it you're more than like;ly going to lose the chimney. Unless you have a pro do it.
Good luck to you. Rod
In answer to your question, not only does the house have to be lifted, according to a pro I spoke with recently, the house would most likely have to be moved so the foundtaion can be bulit. Picture a dog house in the yard sitting on the ground. That's more or less the situation here, there is no foundation, more accurately it's a deck house. Posts driven into the ground, girders attached or on top of posts, joists on top of girders. The only way to see the actually construction is to remove the floor, something I can't do until after the closing. I am sure once I do that, I'll be posting a whole bunch more questions.
Kevin
I don't see why they'd have to move it, although such a small one would be easy to move. If it's left in place then you have the advantage of being able to plumb down from the house to set the forms. If the house is moved, you will have to determine not only the footprint dimensions, but whether or not it's square, straight, etc.
My house was low enough that they had to do some tunneling to get the steel in. Two guys with foxhole shovels did that in about an hour while other guys were unloading and stocking cribbing around the building.
Depending on the house and site, it can be cheaper and safer to lift and move than to work in under existing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The guy looking at it this week mentioned moving it. I guess he can determine if it can stay while a foundation is built. Some points: This a Jersey Shore property. It is aproximately 10 feet above sea level on Long Beach Island, NJ. There will not be a basement, just a foundation or pilings. The house "sinks" from a central fireplace which is set on the ground, not on the floor. In other words it is not held up by the floor like in modern day construction. Any comments about leveling the house would also be appreciated.
Thanks
Kevin
On my house I removed a brick fireplace and two brick chimneys, which were in poor condition and not worth saving. All we had to do to lift the place was get beams under the floor joists. It sounds like your fireplace is critical and that preserving the elevation relationship between it and the rest of the structure is necessary. As such you will probably need to lift the chimney with the house, and I'm not sure how much leveling you could do without lifting. Keep us posted.
The fireplace is a mess. Missing bricks at the top, flue is sealed off and gas vent free set up is in place. The bricks in the house have been covered with cement and seashells placed in it with most having fallen off. I was thinking that since the fireplace is attached to the house with everything sloping away from it, if it were detached would the house sort of self level. The attacments to the fireplace are the highest points.
Does not sound like the deteriorated fireplace and flue are worth saving. Might be easier to just remove it in advance of lift. Less cost, and you would get more floor space.
If the house is going up onto pilings you could leave the steel beams used to lift it in place to span the pilings. With just 10 feet of elevation, pilings are probably the way to go. In most places, pilings would be required by code.
It sounds like you have a small house on a large piece of land. If that's true, it doesn't necessarily have to stay where it is. Consider the views, drainage, whether you'd want to build another building elswhere on the lot, and maybe put the old house out of the way for future plans. That way you could build the new foundation, and have a house mover come in for one day to take the old house up, over, and down.
-- J.S.
That is impressive work, but I'm glad it isn't me down there!How high above grade will that end up? We aim for 18"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Piffin,We did some regrading when all was done and ended up with about 14" above grade. Water was the problem with this place. We put 4" drain pipe inside and outside the footings to carry it away. As you can imagine it was not the most pleasant area to be working in. Under the house it was 4'6" to the bottom of the log joists. I'm 6'3", and my son is 6'6". All I can say is, thank god for hot tubs!The house is the "John Clark House", the Wolfeboro, NH historical society's building. Rod
Kevin,
You have a chance here to make a decision.. While your idea of lifting the house to put a foundation under it has merit and can be done by a determined do-it-yourselfer, perhaps you should take a moment to sit back and ask yourself a critical question..
Now you are the only one who can answer this and your final answer wins but the question I have to ask is,
are you sure?
I bought my house shortly after that had been done to it, (lifted up and a new foundation put under it). There were so many things wrong with my house when I bought it that I decided to tear it down and start over.. I found that approach to be far cheaper and I wound up with a much better job... If the previous owner had sold it as it was without going too deeply in debt to attempt to resue an otherwise modest structure, no doubt he would have avoided bankruptcy and been able to retire rather than losing a lifetimes worth of work to the bank..
No doubt you'll need to update much of the house already. insulation, heating system, wiring, etc.. You for certain will need to do new plumbing and during all of this you will hear two dreaded words, code compliance, or bring it up to code.. (those words mean you're about to spend a lot of money on stuff you already thought was good enough)...
The only real reason (IMHO) to do as you suggest is to save a structure that is extremely unique.. Was it originally designed by Frank Loyd Write or other noteworthy architect Is there really unique material that you want to save? Not just some wide trim at the baseboardsand semi nice hardwood floors, but some really unique things that can't be saved any other way..
A house can be torn down in a couple of days and hauled off then new contruction is fast and not really that expensive especially if you are willing to do the work yourself.. My double timberframe for example is costing me less than $20.00 a sq.ft. to build... it's built extermemly strong and well. Sure I've done my homework and I shave a penny so thin you can see thru it but in the end I won't have a compromise and it should last a long time..
You might check with your local house movers just to see what they would charge. They already have all the gear and experience to do it. They could crib it up as high as you'd like.
Chimneys can be dealt with. Brick-by-brick if necessary. I'd be more inclined to make the chimney disappear by my hand and sub-contract the house lift.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
As a former Owner who renovated a small small Cape in the BrantBeach section of
LBI (2002), I'd like to share some thoughts;
- At high tide the water table is about 18 inches below grade,making the pouring of masonary footings a bit more difficult.
- Local contractors seemed to take much longer to shedule/complete projects than I was used to.
- The building department would only inspect one day a week and wouldn't do multiple inspections on the same day i.e. rough plumbing,fire blocking(yes there was a seperate inspection for this!),framing ect. It took 3 days to do 2 doghouse and one shed dormer and 7 weeks for all inspections before I could drywall.
- it would be cheaper to build metal fireboxes/flues after the raising than try to save the existing masonary.
Vacant lots on lbi sell for $450,000 and up, is this really worth doing vs. new house
Hi Ken
Thanks for the input. As to wether this is worth doing at all vs. a new house, I am trying to do both depending on cost. Lot is 70 x 100, code allows up to 35% coverage of the lot. Given the current house footprint, I can put another structure of about 1500 sq ft footprint. This by two floors is 3000 sq ft house. I was thinking of a small barn with timber frame construction and SIP's exterior and roof, probably not 1500 foot print but as small as I can get away with. Inside would be BR's, kitchen, family room but from the street would look like a barn. The one condition is the town only allows one kitchen per lot, tear out the old and put in new one in new house. Technically it would be an addition, can be free standing with some connection to old structure (pergola, etc). At this point I am trying to gather info to see if it's worth it or not. It would be nice to keep old house as guest house. We'll see.
Kevin
From all I've read here, it sounds like you need to lose the chimney. After that, jacking up can make thikngs easier and it might have an advantage to end up higher than it is now, both for fear of flood water surges and for better views.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've been following this discussion and have also considered the raising and replacing the foundation of a 1935 cottage build on a fieldston foundation. I am looking for names of contractors who would do this sort of work in the lower Catskills if anyone knows any names to call?