This message is a little long, but I need the length to properly describe my problem, sorry.
Bad 3-prong outlet in kitchen needed replacing. It’s ganged with a light switch for light over the sink. I have lived in the house since new; constructed about 1978; first time in the box. I have serious reservations about the electrician who wired the box.
Three 12-2 cables come into the box; one 12-2 goes from switch to light. Some wires pushed into (wire-connection-holes in the) back of the outlet; some screwed into the sides of outlet. Three 12-2 cables are wired properly–black to hot side, white to neutral side of outlet, ground wires twisted together. All hot and white wires connected via outlet connections. No wire nuts.
Problem: the 12-2 from switch to light. Hot (black) wire wired to switch and goes to light. White wire goes to the only wire nut in the box which has two single black wires also connected to it (these were not in cable, but single wires). One of these wires goes to the hot side of the outlet where all the other hot blacks are connected. The other black wire goes to the other side of the switch. The bare copper ground wire is hooked to the neutral side of the outlet (with all the other white wired neutrals). That is, the bare ground is not wired to the other bare grounds but to the white neutrals.
At the light box, four 12-2 cables come in of which one is from the switch. Wire nuts used for all connections. For the three non-switch cables, all black hot wires wired together, all whites together, and all bare grounds twisted together. For the switch cable, white wire (really hot from previous paragraph) is fastened to the wire nut with all the hot (black) wires. The black wire goes to the black lead from the light. The bare ground is twisted with all the other grounds. The white lead from the light is attached via a wire nut to a bare ground wire which is also twisted with all the other bare ground wires. By the way, both boxes are ceramic-type boxes (not metal or plastic). (Note, I am writing this away from home and don’t recall any other wires going to the white wires in the light box. This box may be the source to the first box.)
I am not an electrician by training, although I have strung a lot of wire. I do everything by code or “by the books.” I have never come across anything like this before. I believe a separate wire should be run from the first box to the second to supply power to the cables in the second box (or vice versa). This would be difficult to do, although the house is a ranch, and I do have access to the attic over the kitchen for running an additional wire for the power. Then I would rewire the switch for the light.
Am I wrong. Is the current wiring correct and just a properly allowed shortcut? Or was the electrician who did this completely whacko? Is there any harm keeping the current wiring the way it is? Your help is greatly appreciated.
Replies
"Or was the electrician who did this completely whacko?"
That would be an mild expression for this guy.
First of all the ground wires and neutrals should NEVER be inter connected exact at the main pannel. Big time NO, NO!
I have never heard of a "cermanic" box. I suspect that it is a hard rigit plastic.
By "light box" do you mean the box where the light fixture is installed?
I am confused by the receptacle/switch box. Is this a ganged, 2 place box or it is two completely separate boxes. If it is one box then you don't need to run a cable from one side to the other. Individual jumper wires can be run from one device to the other or to a pigtail.
Using the receptacle as a tie point to feed other circuits and the combination of back stab and screws is OK, but not concidered as "professional". Connecting all of the appropriate wires together and then a pigtail to the receptacle is much better.
It took me a LONG time and many aspirns to figure out what is APPARANTLY happening here.
Beside real problem that I will point out in a minute, the wring is strainge. You normally daisy chain from box to box. So typically you would only have 2 cables at each box, maybe 3, but to have 4 cables at box the switch/recpt and the light box is very unusally. Not knowing the layout there may be a reason for this, but it is not typical.
Also it seems to have some lighting on the countertop small applaince circuit. That is against code today and I might have been back them, but not really that big of deal.
Here is what happend. The guy screwed up and the used 12-2 between the light and switch and should have used 12-3.
So he is using the black as the switched hot, the white as the unswitched hot and the ground as the neutral.
Now from this I can not tell if the power is feed into with one of the cables to the recpt and the up through the white wire to the light box and then out the other cables to other loads or if it feeds the other way.
Either way a big chunk of the circuit does not have proper grounds.
The only way that I know to fix this is does some fishing and/or opening walls and run 12-3 between the 2 boxes.
Possilbly just running a whole new circuit to the light box or the switch box, but you need to figure find which is one has the supply and then run the new circuit to the other.
Bill has it right, and one more thing: With four 12-2's in the "light box" it would be a good idea to also check the size of the box and see if it meets the fill requirements.
-- J.S.
Bill,
Thanks for the reply. I am sorry for the headache this caused. I didn't know any other way to describe it. I am not very good at drawing pictures. Your description and suggestions back my feelings. Thanks again.
I thought I was going nuts when I saw this and tried to decipher what was going on. I am an amateur, but even at that, felt this was really wrong.
"Ceramic box" = Brown shiny coated on inside surface?
"Light box" = Where the light fixture is installed.
"Receptacle/switch box" = Ganged, 2-place box (not 2 separate boxes).
"Single wires" = What I described as your more aptly named jumper wires.
"Individual-holes-in the back of outlet" = What you aptly named back stabs.
What I would like to do is isolate each box to see which is getting the main power and which is the feed. Then run a separate line between the two for the power connection. Finally, connect the light switch properly.
But......I have had to open only a couple receptacles in the house ever. Now I feel that I should look at all of them! If this guy screwed up one, what are the chances that all the others are wired properly?
Looks like I have some work cut out for me. As always, a ten minute job will end up costing at least 10 hours.
The easy way to check for ground in all the other boxes is to go to HD and buy a small plug in tester. It will tell you if you have proper ground in each of your outlets through a series of different colored lights. Makes the job easy and fast and costs less than $5.
No they will not tell you if you have a PROPER GROUND. They can not tell the difference between a bootleg ground (the ground terminal connected to the neutral) and a real ground.
There are some expensive tester that do test for that, but Bob Walker says that they are not too reliable.
RT
####uMeING the total loads on the "other" romex (cables) in the light fixture are low enough for 12ga, the bare minimum you should do (immediately) is put black tape on both ends of the hot white wire from switch box to light fixture, white tape on the bare copper neutral (ground wire) of the same run, and most important remove the bare copper (ground wire) from the neutral side of the light fixture to the grounding system and replace it with a white 14ga wire connected to the neutral system (white wire) wire-nut.
Disregarding the issue of working safety at some future remodel when the sparky wants to use the bare copper neutral for a ground and speaking only from a technical viewpoint the wires themselves don't care about insulation color and air is a good insulator, the bare copper neutral "should" be ok as long as the neutral and grounding systems are not tied together.
Since we already know that the electrician who wired your home is an anal orifice with an anal orifices output for brains, you may want to have a whole house inspection and rewire job scheduled as soon as your budget allows.
I'm not really sure I want to sign my name below this, but
SamT
SamT,
Thanks for the information. Your suggestion of the bare minimum would work. But isn't the ground in a 12-2 cable 14 gauge? Would I be safe keeping this as a neutral with so many circuits tied to it? Our circuit breaker always trips whenever the toaster, coffee maker, microwave (large size), and overhead light is on (75 watts). Now I know why.
I feel comfortable rewiring the light switch and running an additional cable between the two boxes for the power connection. Do you think this would take care of this circuit's problem? (That is baring any other SNAFUs in the wiring.)
I still feel I have to check all the other boxes in the house to be sure they are wired properly. Surprisingly, our house is one of about 500 in our subdivision built by the same company. I'm sure they used the same class of workmanship in all of them (I have heard of other horror stories--plumbing, carpentry, etc.-- by my neighbors). Yet, no house fires by wiring that I know of.
As an aside, SNAFU is a real word or acronym in the dictionary. It came from WWII military slang. Some of you may know what it actually means--it describes this electrician's work perfectly. (Situation Normal, All F***** Up! The dictionary uses two words for the asterisked word--one is Fouled; I don't think WWII marines used that word!!!)
Edited 1/27/2004 10:03:09 AM ET by RThomas
Add FUBAR if it's a tear out and BOHICA if the wrong guy does the rework....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
IMERC,
FUBAR and BOHICA are not in the dictionary. I figured out what FUBAR meant quite easily; I had to do a Google for BOHICA. Both these are now in my vocabulary, and both describe my situation perfectly.
Thanks for the English lesson.
Beyound All Repair you got.
The other one is Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
"Our circuit breaker always trips whenever the toaster, coffee maker, microwave (large size), and overhead light is on (75 watts)."
Now you know why the code prohibits having lights on the same circuit as the kitchen small appliance circuits. That extra 75 watts will do it very time <G>.
For a short period of time, when an equipment ground was first added to 120 v branch circuits a unsized ground wire was used. I have seen one #14 NM that had a #16 ground wire. I am guess that #12 used a #14 ground. But this was not used but for a short period of time.
Now the grounds are the same size as the power wires upto #8 (or maybe 6, but fairly large).
In almost all cases if you can fish a wire single wire between the two box you can get a cable and do it right.
But if you are having problems with trips this is what I would do.
You should have two 20 amp kitchen small appliance circuits, I know that dates back to the late 70's. But even if you do it is still easy for all of the high current stuff to end up on one. And back then that included the refigerator, dishwasher, disposal, etc. Those two circuits where also permitted to feed recptacles in a pantry area and the dinning room.
I would first go turn off each one of those circuits, one at a time, and identify what all or on each one of them.
Then on the problem circuit identify 3 or 4 (don't remember the number) circuits at the receptacle and which 3 at the light box is the feed and then what loads are on each of the other circuits.
Then by looking at where the appliance are plugged and where you can fish new wiring with the least problems and then run a new circuit to and split this mess up.
Look at the bright side. I don't remember the exact words, but there is a Chinse proverb that goes something like "what is a problem is an opportunity".
Bill,
You hit the nail right on the head. When we first moved into the house many, many moons ago, I did map all of the lights and receptacles. I still have that map in one of my files. I can't remember off the top of my head which outlets are on which circuits, but I do remember there were an awful lot of outlets on the kitchen circuit. There were all the kitchen outlets, the kitchen lights, the garage light, the back yard light, some outlets from the dining room and some from the family room (3dr, 2 bath, family room, living room, dining room house). Compared to the other circuits in the house, the kitchen circuit was extremely loaded.
When I get home tonight I will pull my map out and look it over. Splitting all those outlets between two circuits sounds like the right thing to do.
Thanks for the advice, Bill.
I would certainly appreciate hearing from anyone else with other expert suggestions.
Thanks, RThomas
While I am being "helpful" I think that I should point out that with all of the holes that you will make in the back spash to to the new wiring you might as well put up the new tile backspash that the wife wants.
And while you are at that you might as well replace the counter top.
And while you are at it maybe new appliance or 2.
Boy I am glad that I can be so helpful <G>.
I am even gladder that you do not know here I live <VBG>.
Bill asked me to tell you that he forgot to mention the sink, garbage disposal, cabinates and he also said to remind you not to forget the new floor.
ps... need directions to his house???
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
IMERC (and Bill),
You've got it backwards---the directions needed to the house are going the wrong way. Don't forget to bring all your tools.
Oh yeah, on your way, stop at the supply store. Besides all the wire and new outlets, I could use a new subpanel for the extra circuits. I could also use a new back splash, counter top, sink, light, disposer, and cabinets. We already have a new faucet and dish washer, but we could use a new stove and exhaust fan (we prefer electric).
I figure with three of us going strong, if you get here Friday, we could put a big dent in it by Sunday night. I live in Missouri, so I'm really close to most parts of the rest of the nation.
See ya later, and thanks for the help.
RThomas
Missouri.... Missouri???? Wazza a Missiouri???
Let's see. Travel, perdium, rate, thermos, tab at Rez's and nap breaks...
We can do...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I hope he does not follow THOSE instructions.
They where just ment for you. They lead under the tipple of the Acme anvil company.
But I just read his last message and he is closer than I like, so I better wisper this.
Bill,
Checked my kitchen circuit last night:
Two outdoor lights; atrium light; master bedroom light; living room socket; dining room light; family room socket; all kitchen lights, sockets, and appliance except the refrigerator, range, and dishwasher; stove exhaust fan and light; laundryroom light; and garbage disposal.
That is a total of 17 outlets: nine lights, six outlets, and two miscellaneous items (garbage disposal and exhaust fan) on a 20 amp breaker.
The next largest circuit with a 15 amp breaker has 12 outlets for two smaller bedrooms, one bath and hallway light (four lights, seven outlets, and one miscellaneous item--bathroom fan--in all).
All the rest of the circuits have seven or less outlets on them.
See what I mean by the kitchen circuit being overloaded?
On top of that, the service panel does not have a main breaker. It is divided in half with 220 service items on the top: a breaker for the A/C, range, dryer, and a submain for the bottom 110 items. I have two slots open in the top half in which one I plan to use sometime in the future for a subpanel. The bottom half of the panel has nine slots for 110 breakers and all are in use.
I am not about ready to rewire my whole house. I will fix the kitchen outlets and check the other receptacles in the house for correct procedure. The subpanel will wait.
Thanks everyone for the advice,
RandyT