I have been installing house wrap (Tyvek) on my buildings for several years now thinking it was one of the best products you can use. The Architect on my current job spec’d 30# felt for the exterior walls. When I inquired if we could use Tyvek he told me that it was garbage and that we were to stay with the felt paper.
Is Tyvek that bad or is he on to something?
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Replies
Did the architect give any reason? IMHO house wrap is far superior to felt. More durable, comes in 10' wide rolls, seams can be taped, will outlast humanity... I dont know what advantages felt has. I think the architect is wrong. You should tell him so.
I had an architect tell me "bridging is required on walls 8' or higher", which he was refering to firestop and the wall was just a partition in an oversized room.
"I think the architect is wrong. You should tell him so."
LOL!! You were the kid that got all your friends into fights as a kid weren't you. Bottom line on this particular install, right, wrong or otherwise, I'm thinking felt is probably going to be the only option under consideration. :-)>
However you feel about house wraps, it's would be kind of hard to convince anyone that felt is a bad choice for house wrap now wouldn't it? In this case I think I would install felt and find something more important to fight with the architect about.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Yeah, there's no point arguing over house wrap vs felt when there's so many design issues you could correct him on.~ WebTrooper ~
"But don't take my word for it. I was wrong once and it could happen again!"
Hollywood,
Do you know what you have done by asking that question?
Might as well ask about venting while you're at it.
or drywall screws!!!
The reason he gave was that Tyvek is not a "water barrier" and water would pass right through it.
I did not want to argue with him even though I have had 20 mph winds and rain pelting the side of a building for two days and the only water that got into the building was from an incomplete roof flashing.
We have been getting more involved with water damage repair on large apartments, condo's and homes that had EIFS for the exterior finish. All the people/engineers involved in the litigation and repair designs are saying the same thing.
Funny about the vent coment! They have also brought up the idea of closing off the entire attic vent system ie, soffits, gable and ridge vents saying they are the culprits of mold and mildew in our area.
Roar!
haven't used Tyvek or housewrap in about 6-7 years.. went back to felt, prefer felt.. love felt.. 15# or 30 #... for sidewall...
Tyvek supposedly degrades in contact with some wood species.. like cedar..
anyways .. it's definitely overrated..
and that reference to the JLC article a couple years ago was quite an eye opener..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
not sure what the stuff was... but like felt... but for roof underlayments comes 10ft wide... can stay on for months... is stronger... holds nails well... and priced right... I've never seen it used... think i saw it in FHB or maybe here in a post... could have seen it on TOH... maybe at a supply house...? anyone? would it be good as a house wrap?
pony
yur kiddin , right ?
u mean RoofTopGuard II..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
yep that looks like it .... I haven't seen it used around here... but it looked like good stuff...
my supply house does sell a product thats made from old tires... thinner than 15lb felt but very strong... comes 5 or 10sq per roll... i don't get into that type material ... all i buy is torch down...ply material & kegs of tar
p
Yes Mike, I remember that article. It was one of several in JLC that comapred housewrap, felt, etc. What it said was that both housewraps and felt are effected by surfactants emmited from cedar and redwood siding, plastic housewrap being effected more so. I believe that it sited this as another reason for backpriming siding. We don't use redwood or ceder sidiing around here - mainly we use brick and cement board. Some old houses have cyprus siding. Really though, any siding should be back-primed. Matt
I'm with you Matt. Most of our house's are brick and hardi-panel which comes primed so it should not make to much difference what you use as long as it is installed correctly.
John
This question has been beat to death here and elsewhere. On this topic, everyone has an opinion... Your archi's opinion is only one in the crowd.
IMO, more importantly than what product is best, is that the material wrapping the house be detailed properly so as to shed water. No exterior treatment (siding, brick, etc) that I can think of is waterproof, especially after being on the house for 8, 12, or 20 years, so the secondary weather barrier must be installed to account for this.
If you more specific info JLC had few articles a few years ago.
I'm with Mike on this one.
Can't beat TP. Sometimes need to look around for 30# pound.
And just how the hell do you install a 10' foot roll of Tyvek even on a calm day??
I always cut it in half. Won't lean a ladder on it either.
Eric
Posted:
We don't use redwood or ceder sidiing around here - mainly we use brick and cement board.
Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO! - materials that do not rot burn etc etc
I believe that they do make Tyvek in 3' and 5' rolls. If 10's are overwelming just use smaller rolls.
If you installing Tyvek horizontally, why would you need to tape seams anyways since you are overlapping the bottom with the top?
The Sicilian
If you installing Tyvek horizontally, why would you need to tape seams anyways since you are overlapping the bottom with the top?
Cause thats whats in the manucaturers specs. If youre gonna spend the big bucks on Tyvek might as well do what they tell you....no?
Be well wrapped in plastic...lol
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
If youre gonna spend the big bucks on Tyvek might as well do what they tell you....no?
No
In this case you may agree with me, I see absolutely no reason to tape a horizontal seem that has a 2 to 3 inch overlap. Unless I am missing something please enlighten me as to why this needs taping in your experience not manufacturer recomendations.
In my humble opinion, I think they just want you to buy more of their product especially at $10 for a small roll of tape. You may spend more on tape then on the wrap itself.
The Sicilian
I agree about them wanting you to spend the extra $$$$ for the tape. It's just that if its in the specs and one believes all they claim about the product then why stop at the tape?
I have no proof of anything wrong with Tyvek but like I said, "its just a feeling" I have.
Seems like its overkill.....possibly locking in posinous vapors from all the formaldahydes etc etc in the products from insul to ply to carpet etc etc.
Its just simply a feeling.......sorry if I came off all knowing cause thats not what I was trying to do.
I wonder though..if you made Tyvek into a bag and filled it with water..how fast would the water get out if at all..and if you put it over your head could you breathe?
edit:
Far as vinyl siding goes.thats "far" from airtight even with slip in foam.
edit 2: Why not use a bead of silicone instead of tape? My guess is that it'd stick and a whole lot cheaper and easier than the tape.
Be well
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 12/7/2003 1:25:16 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Edited 12/7/2003 1:29:18 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Good point Andy,
I just get a little suspicious about a company that tells you to use another one of their products to get good results with their initial product when clearly it is not necessary in an overlap installation. If the tape was about the same price as a big roll of duct tape then maybe I'd buy into it. But have you seen that skimpy little roll of tape they sell? When I picked it up I thought they forgot to put the tape on the roll.
Sort of like Thoro products which tell you to add Acryl 60 to all their powder cement products to enhance its performance, well just put it into the product from the get go and tell me just to add water.
I know how marketing departments work.
Silicone would do the job too.
Deck Mate screws use a square drive head but instead of telling you to buy a special bit they enclose one in every box.
The Sicilian
one must not forget that the majority of building today uses some form of engineered sheets for sheathing, ie. plywood, osb, rigid foam. All of these products serve admirably as vapour retarders much like 6mil poly. Unless you take steps to allow air transfer thru the sheathing, building paper/ house wraps has more to do with keeping moisture out, than serving as a wind barrier.walk good
Tyvek is a good infiltration barrier. If you tape the horizontal joints, you're helping keep the wind from cruising thru the house.
This whole thread has seemed to come up at the perfect time. There is a guy that is building a home about a block away from mine. He comes up to me mumbling about the siding contractor put on Tyvek/Typar installed under Hardiplank when he should have used 30# felt as in the contract. He started to ask me my opinion and I am more leaning towards felt. He wanted to know whether to have him remove the Tyvek/Typar(don't know which one it is) before he has the siding put on this weekend.
Which brings me to this thought. Other than the additional cost of the material, why not use both Tyvek AND 30# felt??? Wouln't the Tyvek help with air infiltration and the 30#felt help in sealing the nails holes and keep rain when installing the Hardiplank??? Wouldn't this be a bonus since we are on the Wahington coast where the driving rain seems to be the norm?
Any way, this is what thinking does to me at this time of the night.
I don't know. The whole thing gives me a migraine.
Roar!
that link above goes to an article by Paul Fissette..
he says (bottom line ) that he would use felt.. but Tyvek or R-Wrap or the NEW Typar are all acceptable..
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html
read the article and have your neighbor read it..
me... if it meant that much to me, i'd have hammered the point home BEFORE ..
at this point... ????????????Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think the bottom line is to stay away from the perforated plastic housewraps as opposed to Tyvek and some the others are actually a plastic fabric. Or use felt.
One thing interesting about felt, is that it is actually supposed to have a certain ASTM rating...Matt
Whats an ASTM rating...?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
ASTM - American Society for Testing and Materials.
They write the proceedures for testing some materials and where needed set the values needed to "pass" for a given application.
Looking quickly I see standard for testing for surface burning of building material, toy safety testing, and measuring coating adhesion.
I would have to go back and read the article, but it proprobly has to do with either vapor transmission or bulk water resistance.
Does anybody wave the opinion/experience of using both Tyvek AND felt at the same time? Or would tend to create more problems?
I was supposed to tape the seams??????? Gees; if they had written the install any smaller I would have had to put on 2 pair of glasses......I over lapped a min. of 6-8 in.
Archi loves me.
Eric
I've been getting ripped! Typar and Tyvek and such around here comes in 9' widths.
But, who cares...like others here, I'll use felt if given a choice.
And, BTW, someone mentioned the new stuff being heavier than the old? Not true. Old stuff was 15 and 30 Pound (#). Now it's Number 15 or Number 30 and not as heavy as the old.
"What's the Difference" in FHB had a feature on the subject a couple of years ago.
Home Depot sells Tyvek for 3' x 100 for $39.97 and 3' x 165 for $57.47 and I think they also sell 9' rolls.
The Sicilian
and I forget.how much is FP a full roll....just curious as the differances in price this monthMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
theres something about wraping a house in a plastic bag that bothers me so I won't be using it on my own house even though its in the plans.
I'll be using the tried and true 30#FP.
All the houses I've ever demo'd that were old had TP on it and was not in the least bit deteriorated.
Be well
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy what is it that bothers you so much about using housewrap? Yes it feels thinner and makes its own noise with the wind but it is an accepted and much used product.
Do you feel the same way about vinyl siding? If housewrap is like a plastic bag then vinyl siding must be like living in a bottle of Pepsi.
I have seen a lot of felt paper under siding in old homes also that was intact but very brittle and I believe much thinner than what is used today. I have also seen felt that crumbled like a cookie too. I have also seen a lot of those cocoons mounted on them too with insect larvae living inside.
Has lab or testing facility completed any really thorough testing on these and other products that can measure strength, water penetration, air penetration, insect and chemical repellant and durability?
The Sicilian
"Has lab or testing facility completed any really thorough testing on these and other products that can measure strength, water penetration, air penetration, insect and chemical repellant and durability?"
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/search/index.html
Then search for house wraps
Bill
Hope its ok to jump in (new 'kid' on the block) even though I didn't participate in the priors...That link to the housewrap was great and confirmed my suspicions about a wind driven leak I have on the south side of my house. So I wonder why all the hype about using the tape exists with all the breaks from the siding hardware causing potential problems proven in that test??
my .02
Thanks again Bob
good followup to the JLC article...
guess i'll stick with 15# & 30# felt..
thanks for the linkMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I generally find these housewrap debates focus on certain 'performance' benefits touted by housewrap manufacturers that are not really applicable in the real world. Huge marketing budgets at work...
While the more impartial research suggest feltpaper may have certain performance and material cost benefits, housewrap is a huge labor saver. Big lightweight rolls go up very quickly. Fitment around windows and doors is easier... This is probably the cost/benefit ratio that really matters.
Frankly, design and flashing details are infinitely more important.
If you use a rainscreen design, many of the housewrap problems suggested by the Umass study become moot.
I would avoid perforated housewrap based upon research results (and common sense). Otherwise, either material can make for a good secondary drainage plane [IMHO].