Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 02:37am | #1

   What kind of walls are they?

   Slab floor?

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Fred | Jan 19, 2003 02:48am | #2

   8 inch cinderblock walls with a slab floor

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 03:04am | #3

   Can you tell how they started the block first course? Was it set on the slab or an gravel or right in the mud?.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Fred | Jan 19, 2003 04:52am | #4

   the first course of block was started right on the hard dirt. i broke thru the one inch slab and dug the dirt out nearly to the outer edge of the block. I KNOW FROM A PREVIOUS DIG on the outside that the walls were never parged or tarred back when it was built in 1928. the rain water has carried dirt with it to the center of the block and some of the block cores are filled with dirt two and three courses high . Any help or the name of a book on the subject would be greatly appreciated

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 05:20am | #5

   Boy Oh Boy, you've sure got a conundrum there. Is there any signs of settling? It seems that a foundation wall like this would be falling apart after 80 years with soils pushing it in. Even the slab is only a mud slab. You are asking about keeping it dry but it seems like there must be structural problems too.

   Add to that the fact that any digging you do to try to deal with water and drainage in conventional ways could undermine the structure of the wall and make things worse. Anything you do needs compromise with reality and has odds for liability issues.

   This is one to sleep on...

   wake me up in the morning.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Fred | Jan 19, 2003 04:24pm | #6

   OK, wake up.  Have you thought up a brainstorm for my problem?  There are very little signs of settling.  No major cracks in the cinderblock walls.  The dirt I dug out under one section is very hard clay so I guess that helped with the settling.  I found a company that specializes in structural as well as waterproofing.  They are willing to put footings in and the water extraction system for $14,000, with a lifetime guarantee for the walls and water.  They showed us their insurance papers and all.  It would involve putting footings (4-6 foot sections) going half way under the block, and coming out 6 inches into the basement, making a total width of 10-12 inches wide of footing.  What do you think of that?  We want to add to the top of the bungalow but can't without footings.  The engineer that came out from Mid-Atlantic couldn't believe there were no structural problems, either.   Do you know of any books or other resources on the problem?  Thanks for your time.

   Fred

3. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 19, 2003 06:28pm | #7

   fred..$14K...

   you are very close to the point where you could pick the little sucker up and POUR a  whole new foundation under it, including 12" of crushed stone, french drains, new slab... new vinyl basement windows....for not much more

    if you weren't trying to put a 2d floor on it.. i'd just trench inside the old wall, put in filter fabric, pipe & stone.. and lead 'em to  sump  and pump it out....but the 2d floor...

   you'd  need a building mover, and a contractor with a small machine...

   what part of the country do yo live in ?Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 09:56pm | #8

   Not quite so fast, Mike! We don't know how big this house is! But for the average two or three bedroom cape, I'd say it's close.

   I think you have to run the numbers, man and go with either the gauranteed job or replace the whole thing, like Mike suggests. That way you have the real thing and not a patch.

   I've been handicapped in my thinking on this one because you started outy saying solve water problem. Adding more house to the top makes it a definite structural problem and I would probably said from the beginning to jack up and replace.

   Forget the book idea. Much of this work is experience and judgement calls. You have a unique head shaking situation to start with that no book is likely to cover..

   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   xMikeSmith | Jan 19, 2003 11:08pm | #9

   bungalow .... 1928... i don't think we got sprawling '90's ranch here.. lemme guess

   28 x 36

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

6. 
   Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 11:24pm | #10

   probably - or smaller.

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   rjw | Jan 20, 2003 04:12am | #11

   Fred,

   Have yopu done the easy stuff (the stuff the waterproofing co didn't tell you about)?  Good, 10' downspout extensions, positve grading around the house? Controlling exterior water movement on any slopes above the house?

   That can significantly reduce if not eliminate water problems.  Of course, it doen't have nearly as much profit oin it {G}

   _______________________

   "I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different."  Oscar Wilde

1. 
   Davo304 | Jan 20, 2003 08:18am | #12

   Piffin, the situtaion described...8 inch cinderblock with no foundation, laid on hard clay, is typical of my home, and about every home built in my town before 1950! Believe it or not, it's true. My home is a 2 story home with a full attic on top. I have had some settling issues, but so far, none too worriesome.

   Many of the homes built like this either have sump pumps or have been "leak proofed" from the inside.( This consists of tearing up a 12 inch wide path of the concrete basement floor, encompassing the entire floor perimeter. After removing the concrete, a trench is dug approx 16 inches deep and filled with a gravel bed and then a membrane is laid down. Holes are drilled into the cinderblock cores and pipes are inserted...the theory being that the groundwater rising inside the blocks, will travel out through the pipes and be discharged into the membrane trough. This trough is filled with more gravel, and a light layer of concrete completes the job. Water in this trough is diverted to a nearby sump pump, which pumps the water into the basement sewer drain. The cost of this type of work ranges from $2400 to $4000; depending on the situation.

   Other homes simply have drilled holes in key cinderblock locations and allow the water to drain toward the basement drain.  These are just 2 examples...there are many products out there that allow water to be drained off on the inside of the basement, rather than the outside.

   As for structural problems.....many of these homes are full blown, 2 story houses. Still in very good shape today...kinda makes you wonder.

   My advice for anyone in this situation who is considering on adding another story...first ,do check this over with a reputable structural engineer and or architect before doing anything.  Almost every engineer/architect in Pittsburgh, Pa has had to come across this situation more than once...I guarentee it! As for other parts of the country...I 'm not aware if this "no footer" practice is as common as it is here.

   The old slogan: They don't build them like they used to anymore........my response: Thank God!

   Davo

1. 
   rjw | Jan 20, 2003 12:58pm | #13

   Many of the homes built like this either  ... or have been "leak proofed" from the inside.

   Treats the symptoms, not the problem.  In my area, most of the houses with that "waterproofing" system could have been fixed for $40 worth of downspout extensions and a few hours grading.

   At least you're getting some nice "low" prices for it, though._______________________

   "I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different."  Oscar Wilde

2. 
   fredsmart48 | Jan 20, 2003 11:46pm | #14

   There is a town that charges $200. a month for sanitary sewer unless you prove you don’t have ground water going into the sanitary sewer. If you want a reduced rated you let the city inspect then the charge is $10. a month residential.

3. 
   Piffin | Jan 21, 2003 02:04am | #15

   Thanks for the info davo, especially the tag line. I have used it with customers before!

   I am aware of that diversion drain technique already and like Bob points out, it is dealing with water that has already penetrated the wall surface and doesn't solve the problem of water.

   My bigger concern was the structural issue, when he is adding extra weight to the house. If it is that commomn in certain areas, the soils there must be very good. I'm glad to defer to local practice and the owners pocketbook.

   But I want a footer and perimeter drain under anything I build on.

   I'm like fred in being amazed that anyone would run ground water into a waste drain. It ruins septic systems to handle too much water. Doesn't much matter whether it is the town or a private system. Using one that is designed for waste for runnoff instead is like using a good chisle for a screwdriver or using a chainsaw for fine trim work. If these installer don't know any better than that about where they direct the water flow, I have doubts they know much about structural problems either.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!