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I’ve just completed a post and beam timber-framed great room, using historic doug fir beams. They’re clean, and planed smooth, but contain all of the usual “visual features” of recycled timbers. Am looking for a finish to apply with fast dry-time, low VOC’s and one which leaves the timbers with a “warm” color.
Owners are alergic to some chemicals, which leaves out sprayed laquer, polyurethane, tung oil or even varnish. Have tried water-based urethane, but owners are not satisfied with the lack of amber color. Am considering amber-colored Shellac. What do you think?
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Whoaaa..you just got Bill Conner's attention. He's personally accounted for the demise of a few million lac scale (laccifer lacca). I'm sure he'll applaud your idea, particularly for a dry, low maintenance area.
*Barry is right. I studied it and did some samples and have since used it everywhere in my house - floors, interior trim, furniture, etc.I find it very quick - three coats in a morning on small areas - like doing doors and windows in a room just keep going around - it drys by the time you get back to it. Very easy to stop and start, touch up, etc. And the orange - now called amber - blends colors quite nicely. I had existing and new matching trim and it worked quite well.Its non-toxic - actually approved for use in food (they use to coat candy with it - I think that use has dwindeled). The denatured alcohol does have an odor when fresh - but dissapates quickly.I looked into mixing my own, all sorts of exotic flakes and colors and breeds of insects - and settled on plain Zinsser amber in gallon cans (buy from same lot - it varies ever so slightly).Smooth raw wood to your satisfaction, apply one coat cut 50-50 with alcohol, steel wool (#0000) vac and tack rag, another coat full strength. On the floors I repeated prep and a second full strength coat; I stopped on trim at the second. I have steel wooled the final coat on the trim for a slightly more matte finish. I was planning on paste waxing the trim but haven't gotten to it in 3 years. I did paste wax the floor and power buffed and am satisfied. My kid left a snowy boot for several days and that left a mark that was fairly easy to spot repair. No marks on the trim and windows and very resilient to bangs and bumps (like kids bike's coming inside).Many peoples fear that it will whiten or blush when near water is unfounded in my experience. If water sits on it for an extended period, it will discolor or blush. But if you wipe up the spills, no problem. (The shellac is actually waterproof - great if you want a v.d.r. or to seal an odor in - but the natural wax in it is what actually turns white. And you can buy dewaxed shellac - or dewax it yourself - but then you loose the resiliency - and it will be more brittle.)My favorite topic. Thanks!PS - do some samples!
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Bill --
Thanks for the wonderful reply! My only question back to you is why shellac is now so "out of favor" relative to the "new and improved" finishes that I use every day? Your detailed reply answered some of those issues already, although I cringe at the thought of opening up my lunchbox and biting into a Little Debbie sealed in shellac!
I have heard that shellac "yellows" over time? I realize that on this job (using the amber-toned shellac) this question is academic, but what about future jobs using the "clear" variety? Also, I've heard shellac has a limited shelf life. True?
Thanks so much for the wonderful information! You seem to be a "shellac expert"!!
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Not an expert - just some experience and having had to hunt for answers.
The original shellac in my current old house - 1904 - darkened a lot - over 90+ years. It may yellow - I don't know - no recent experience with clear. But as far as I can tell, all clear finishes yellow - possibly some of the new acrylics being an exception.
One of the advantages I like about shellac is how easily renewable it is - remove uppermost layers with alcohol and steel wool and recoat.
Definitely has a shelf life. Zinsser claims there new formulation is good for three years. I suspect that's unopened. To test - try some on a stick. If it dries in an ordinary amount of time - say a half hour - it's ok.
I don't usually recommend manufacturer's as a source for information but I was quite impressed with the guy at Zinsser - once I got past the sales folk and into their tech services department. He's the one that explained that the (natural) wax adds the resiliency.
I'm going to try clear some time - haven't found the project yet.
There's a pro painter down the street - watches me with amusement - thinks it's awful stuff - though he admits he hasn't used it in a long time. Actually, I'm not convinced he's ever used it but..... Anyway, he feels it's very hard to brush because it dries so fast. I have found that by working with a full, natural bristle brush, and working wet, I have had no problems. I work with a 4" white china hair brush - Purdy - and do everything from floors to window muntins with it. You don't really need to clean the brush - just set in alcohol before next use - but I do usally clean it.
I think it was used on ribbon candy - like my grandmother always got at Christmas. As far as biting Little Debbie - wouldn't touch that line to save my life.
*I was actually a shellac convert before Bill Connor started extolling it virtues on this and other boards. I was led to try it after reading Old House Journal magazines from the 80's, before they went commercial and when they had more reader interaction, and from a book called " The Weekend Refinisher," by Bruce E. Johnson. OHJ addressed shellac as a trim and floor finish, and Johnson praised it for restoring furniture -- he's very much against stripping. Zinsser, no doubt, has the edge in product information and off-the-shelf quality. But, Bill, I'm a bit concerned about the increased shelf life issue. Wonder Bread gets its shelf life from preservatives -- what has Zinsser done to make its shellac last longer? Oh, since I would feel bad about hoarding those old OHJ issues, I'll fax copies of the floor finishing dialogue to anyone who's truly interested. Contact me off-line.
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I think that one of the reasons that shellac is out of favor is because varnishes (and later, urethanes) came along which have a greater resistance to water and much greater resistance to alcohol than shellac. The varnishes are thicker and faster to build a film- 2 varnish coats build more than 4 or 5 coats of shellac, and so was a time saver. The varnish flows and levels more, hence fewer brush marks with lesser skilled appliers. Shellac is much more brittle than other finishes (except nitrocellulose lacquers) and will check or alligator oftentimes over the years. These are probably the reasons that it has lost popularity over the years. That said, I still think that shellac is one of the most beautiful, easy to apply, easy to repair, easy to refinish, finishes ever. I would not use it on a table top that was used for eating/drinking (or I would give that top one last coat of varnish), but otherwise it's great stuff!
I don't think that there's any yellowing of shellac over time, look at museum pieces with 150 year old french polished (shellac) finishes. The color of many wood species changes with exposure to light however, that may be a source of confusion. Shellac does seem to hold on to dirt and darken over time; even this is usually because somewhere along the line, people were giving it various "oil" treatments which will attract and hold onto dirt, eventually almost going black. A pad of steel wool or Scotchbrite dipped into alcohol will wipe the dirt and a thin layer of the shellac right off. It's then easy to smooth the finish with steel wool, or to add a coat or two of new shellac to build the film up if desired. If you really want a sweet final finish, wet sand with silicone carbide paper and mineral spirits as the "wet" (320 to 1000 grit, depending on just how flat and gorgeous you want it) before a light polish with 0000 wool and some wax. Yummmm- smoother than some baby's bottom!
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Yes - applying some plain paste wax with a steel wool pad is a wonderfully easy finishing to shellac. Used that for floors - and then powerbuffed.
Thanks for the info on oils, etc, attacking the dirt that makes older shellac look dark - that's sort of what I suspected but didn't have any evidence. I suspect wax buildup also contributes.
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Wow, you guys are the greatest! This is the first topic that I have posted here (or anywhere), and I am absolutely floored by the depth of response. In this age of stamped-out, thrown-up tracts, I'm glad to hear that their are still fine craftsman out there, similar to me, willing to stick by some of the old, proven methods of "getting the job done".
Last night I tried three coats of Zinnser amber on a 6 x 6 scrap, and the owners LOVED the look. I think I have a winner, thanks to you all.
To Barry, I have one question: How do I contact you "off-line" to get some of those articles from OHJ? In two weeks or so, I will begin laying the same doug fir (planked out into 8 - 11" slabs) onto the floor of the same great room. Would love to try the same shellac finishing that all of you are suggesting, and would attempt to apply a finish coat of paste wax, as Bill discussed.
Will keep you posted on the results, and will try to find a way to post photos of the finished results (perhaps send to Fine Homebuilding's Home edition?)
Thanks again to all!
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I would ad to Barry's recommendtaions Bruce Johnsons other (or another) book - "The Wood Finisher" - pretty good treatment of all the finishes - pro and con - leaning towards old houses but useful for new.
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Hi Bill --
Thanks. Do you know who the publisher of "the Wood Finisher" is? Taunton?
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Not Taunton but several people have told me they found it quickly on Amazon.com. I found it on the shelf at Crown and Borders. I'll look when I'm home and post it.
*Click on a person's name and an e-mail address should pop up.
*My two cents worth:I frequently use small quantities for trim touch up etc., and find it a wonderful way to finish wood, fir included. I don't care for the amber color that that was refered to earlier, but the 'clear' gives just a little color that makes fir look terriffic. I keep a the stuff on my truck for all sorts of finishing and touch up. Brad
*FYIThe latest (Jan/Feb.99) issue of Fine Woodworking has an article on Shellac, under the Finish Line banner on the last 2 pages.
*Also look to Badger Pond site for articles on line - especially if your after a contemporary version of fumed oak finishes.
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Hi Guys --
If you're still reading, I thought I would give you a job-site up-date: I spent the majority of the weekend up on staging spreading shellac. I used a 4" and a 2" (tapered) china bristle brush, and applied 2 coats in rapid order, separated by only an hour elapsed time (sanding with 0000 wool in between). Some comments:
* The main comment is that I understand, Bill, what your "old painter down the street" was talking about (see message #3 above) -- initially I had a really tough time keeping a wet-edge, since I couldn't move the staging fast enough before the stuff dried. It was especially hard, since the great room's heat ended up right where I was working. I soon learned where to strategically start and stop on each timber so as not to cause a build-up of finish in one spot.
* I should have experimented more with the "clear" Zinnser variety -- after a couple of coats of the "amber", the owners think that it's "dark enough" -- but I could see the virtue of three coats to smooth everything out.
* It's tough to avoid runs. I smoothed them out with 150 grit paper, then re-applied. Can't see the repair from below.
* Stirring the bucket is essential -- I noticed that solids immediately started to settle out if not stirred repeatedly.
* On timbers, a final wax coat is un-necessary work. I experimented with a buff coat in a small area, and could see no appreciable benefits from 10 feet below.
Thanks again for waking me up to this wonderful product. I've really enjoyed the conversation!
*Question for you shellac experts...I have a stair railing coated in shellac. The painters got latex paint and caulk on the edges when finishing the surrounding areas. They wiped the paint and caulk but left a whitish residue. It is either on the shellac or in the grain of the oak. What is the best way to clean this off the shellac?? I assume you're talking about using "denatured" alcohol, as opposed to theisopropyl found in the medicine cabinet.
*Walter,I would try a clean rag dampened with denatured alcohol and rub/wipe it with very little if any pressure. The whiteness is probably moisture from the paint or the wet cloth the painters probably used to clean up with. The alcohol will soften the shellac enough to allow the moisture to escape, but if you soften it too much you'll begin to move the shellac around with any wiping motions. Good luck.
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The stageing problem is indeed a problem. Doing floors and trim I did not experience that. I was curious what would happen by mixing white and orange - may try that. Was curious if you tried just buffing with steel wool - no wax - for a slightly matt finish - it hides imperfections like runs.
As far as denatured vs isopropyl - I use whats sold as shellac solvent by the gallon - which I believe is denatured alcohol but I believe you could use isopropyl or gin or scotch or even Budweiser. For the whiteness, I would first try scraping a little area with a new utility knife blade - held perpendicular to the surface with your fingers (no handle). See if the "white" scrapes off or if its in or under the shellac. In that case, a rag or maybe steel wool and alcohol.
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Hi again Bill and David --
I did not final buff with steel wool because the owners like the "shiny", semi-gloss appearance. And really I'm too perfectionistic -- The few runs that are still there blend well with the dark grain pattern of the doug fir.
To repair areas I used denatured alcohol, sold for $6/gallon. To Walter, I doubt the white residue could be on the grain of the wood. Shellac builds well, providing protection for the wood. I would concur with Bill -- soften with alcohol, attempt to remove whiteness with just alcohol and a rag at first. If that doesn't work, repeat, followed by a light scrape (on runs, I sometimes used my fingernail!) If you damage the shellac slightly, buy a quart of the stuff and feather-in a new top-coat. Has been working well for me!
*Anyone have any comments on using shellac as a quick drying back primer and end grain sealer on wood siding and trim? A spray can of shellac is alot more convenient and far less messy than a paint can and brush.
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I use it to seal knots & end grain, stains and pitch marks in pine trim & siding prior to painting. Several coats, dries quickly. . . an age old application. Haven't run across the spray can variety. The stuff has a definite shelf life, and looses effectiveness thereafter. . . wonder if the spray can helps or speeds up that process??
*Dennis - Yes, I've used the spray Zinsser BIN for priming cut ends of pre(back)-primed clapboards. Think I read the tip in FHB many years ago.
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I've just completed a post and beam timber-framed great room, using historic doug fir beams. They're clean, and planed smooth, but contain all of the usual "visual features" of recycled timbers. Am looking for a finish to apply with fast dry-time, low VOC's and one which leaves the timbers with a "warm" color.
Owners are alergic to some chemicals, which leaves out sprayed laquer, polyurethane, tung oil or even varnish. Have tried water-based urethane, but owners are not satisfied with the lack of amber color. Am considering amber-colored Shellac. What do you think?