Hi. I am a homeowner starting a pretty sizable renovation and addition. I have a question regarding the kitchen remodeling. We are putting moving the existing kitchen to the corner of the house and going to mostly below the countertop storage so we can rim the kitchen with windows that take advantage of the views. Our aesthetic is modern and minimalist. The below the counter base cabinets are topped in granite. I want to cantilever these cabinets rather than having them sit on a base with a kickboard. The floor, either wood or flagstone, will run all the way to the wall rather than stop at a kickboard. I want to use conventional rope lighting, rather than very expensive click on lights, to light the floor area below the cabinets and provide soothing ambient lighting when our open area kitchen is not in use.
Is there a sound method to cantilever these cabinets to the two walls, one of which is brick the other is standard frame with sheetrock?
Dave
Replies
It sounds like you don't really want any cabinets at all, just the counters? At least I don't see how you could have very much cabinet and still be able to see the floor all the way back to the wall.
FHB had an article years ago that described a torsion box to support the range and counters for a wheelchair accessible kitchen. It was about three inches thick at the edge and the bottom face curved down so it was about a foot thick at the back, giving plenty of substance to screw to the wall.
The short answer is yes. The cabinets, whatever their height, can be hung from the wall without supports going to the floor. These cabinets will have to be custom built. You must look for a competent builder who understands how to modify a traditional cabinet into one of this type. If the builder tries to sway your design to something else or wants to compromise it, then look elsewhere.
I don't work around brick so I have little knowledge of it. But, I am sure that a method can be figured out to hang the cabinets on the brick wall.
Be prepared to loose some depth (a few inches?) in the cabinets to the necessary wall attachment blocks, etc.
Oh, given that you will have at least two feet of cabinet height (I'm assuming), a traditional "torsion box" construction isn't necessary.
There's a quick-and-dirty answer to your question. You need to find a cabinet shop that builds frameless cabinets (they'll fit into the minimalist style in any event). One way to support "euro-style" cabinets is with a round "foot." These feet srew into the floor of the cabinet carcass, and are screw adjustable for height.
Now, some lines of those feet are a tad under attractive. A roll of chrome tape can cure that, fairly quickly, and giving a finished look in a narrow space.
As an alternative, you could use the stock feet and get anodized aluminum tube stock to fit over them.
A 24" ddep cabinet carcas, with most of your kitchen storage, and, a granite counter top does not sound like a good candidate for cantilevering. I'd suspect that a piece of angle iron and a 22 x 22" triangluar piece of plywood on the angle would be needed to support the cabinets. (Then, I'd likel start worrying about how to keep the wall from bowing out.)
You could move the toekick back, say 12' deep. This would give the appearance of a cantilever, the cabs would appear to "float" over that space. The rope lighting would accent the effect, especially on a rheostat or dimmer.
Just my 2¢ worth from spending way too much time in the cab biz.
I once did some cantilevered countertops and we used 2x2x¼" angle iron with the verticle set in the walls and bolted to the reinforced studs. The DW was cut to the "|_" of the iron where it left the plane of the wall.
With cabinets and granite you may want to add a gusset to the angle, set the horizontal piece under the countertop and let the cabinet hide it all.
With left and right brackets, you could have one at each end of the cabinets and no more than 32" OC.
You would want to have the brackets given to the cabinet maker so he can build to suit, then have the wall framing cutomized the the bracket layouts.
You will need a lot of coordination to pull this off.
SamT
You could move the toekick back, say 12' deep. This would give the appearance of a cantilever, the cabs would appear to "float" over that space. The rope lighting would accent the effect, especially on a rheostat or dimmer.
Then if you mirror the front of the kick, such that the floor is reflected, it really looks like it's floating. No picture, but it worked out great even with a smaller toekick. A little disconcerting for some.
Building wall-hung cabinets strong enough to support the granite really isn't much of a challenge for the cabinet-maker. Going to raise your cost a bit though. If you or the cabinet-maker are unsure, torsion boxes will resolve all strength issues.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Building wall-hung cabinets strong enough to support the granite really isn't much of a challenge for the cabinet-maker.
True enough for a true custom builder, but much harder for for the bulk of the market semi-custom shops building to a standardized set of construction spec. (Been there, documented that--and edited for changes . . . )
Then if you mirror the front of the kick
I like that, wish I'd thought of it, now, too. Ah, even easier than ordering mirrors, back to my chrome tape. Sometimes hard to find, but can have some cool uses. The 8mil (0.008" not 8mm) is better thna the 4mil tape--both use a paper back to protect the nice strong glue. My primary use is for lining light coves (or for over cabinet lighting, etc.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Ah, even easier than ordering mirrors, back to my chrome tape.
Sounds good. I haven't seen it but I'll look for it. Plastic mirror is what I used when the customer was concerned with glass breakage. Toekick, after all.
For me, old mirrors cut to size work fine. I've also used it to make a delineation between the top of a coat closet and the cabinet above. Made the cabinet float if it's a thin line. Recycling at its finest.
Mirrors are really interesting things, especially when you have something bulky above them. If somebody finds the effect a little unsettling, great. I've found that it takes an unusual client to take the dare.
Glad you enjoyed the concept.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks to all the messages. You are all on track with the discussion I had with our architect today. In short, I agreed that the weight is too much and we came up with a recessed toe kick and an elevation off the floor of six feet. I thought about the mirror idea too, but opted against it because, at floor level, I think it might get caught by a rolling marble or some other object and crack. I am looking at either a gloss stainless steel or going "black" to make it disappear entirely.
Cannot tell you and everyone else how much I appreciate the responses on this issue. Very impressive.
Having to clean that floor all the way back, and retrieving objects that roll all the way back, is going to get old quick.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
my thoughts too. especially since they are not going to be suspended high enough to make cleaning easy.
Your design idea is inspired ( if impractical ) but the use of the word, "cantilevered" is incorrect. For them to lever out over someting - a fulcrum point - there must be a point of leverage.
You are describing a wall hung cabinet. Boxes can be built to hang squarely off the wall, but you will need a custome cabinet maker to develope a system to accomadate the weight of the granite in suspension unless you can accept the previous idea of the screw-on legs. They would look similar in appearance to the legs on a stainless commercial styule range. You might even be able to procure the same legs to make it all match.
I'm surprised none of the jokesters here have suggested just hooking the things to the wall with sheet rock screws yet!
;)
Excellence is its own reward!
He's new. We didn't think that he would recognize the trade term 'piffin screw'
SamT
how much money you got?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I've hung a couple of bath cabinets this way. Build the cabinets strong with 3/4" plywood backs. The back and sides must be well secured together. Screw them to the wall. You'll want good fasteners to the brick. Don't tell anyone, but since I was attaching to drywall over 2"x4" studs and the lumber yard didn't have 2"x4" screws,I used drywall screws.
Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
I know this cabinet is small but it's supporting a big piece of granite.Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
You may have to run the cabinet back panel to the floor and screw the cabinet to the wall. Running the back panel (3/4 inch thick back panel) to the floor will bear a lot of the weight. But wow on the stone counter top. thats a lot of weight to hold up.
You're probably talking in the range from a quarter to half a ton of countertop here. Whoever installs the counter will pass judgement on your supports. Any deflection at all, or any substantial amount of height variation and they won't (if they're smart) install. Lag a 2x12 ledger flat onto the studs at floor level and drywall it. This will take the 200 pounds per stud vertical load you will have and it will be the visible finished wall. Have your cabinet shop build the base cabinet so it rests on the edge of the ledger. The cabinet must be inherently rigid enough so it will not deflect under the weight of the counter. Maybe a stress-skin construction or they can embed steel in it. The cabinet gets lagged into the studs. You now also have about 200 pounds per stud of outward pull at the countertop height. At a guess, 2x4 studs alone would deflect too much. Sister a 2x2 by 1/8 steel angle to each stud, floor to ceiling. Then your countertop won't bounce. If it's a wet wall or you have a lot of electrical penetrations, you may need 2x6 or larger studs so it all fits. The trades will not want to be drilling through the steel. On a brick wall, I would not try it. Veneer brick is not designed for lateral force like this. Unless the wall was designed originally to allow this, use legs on the counter.
In case you're wondering, allow 75 pounds per running foot of counter, another 25 for the cabinet itself, and 100 pounds for contents of the cabinet. About 200 pounds per stud. A kitchen sink full with water and dishes also weighs upwards of 100 pounds.