The drywall hangers showed up yesterday to start hanging the basement of the house I am building. I had a chop saw and a table saw in the main room and a few scraps of wood. The electricians and plumbers had their usual wood chips and pieces of wire on the floor. Other than that, the place was pretty clean, definitely workable. The main hanger took a look around and declared the place a “pig-sty”
My question is: How clean does a jobsite have to be before you start working, regardless of your trade? I told the hanger that I would have the place clean in a matter of minutes, but he left anyway.
Needless to say, another crew started today, with no qualms about any trash.
Any thoughts?
Replies
It sounds like your rocker had someplace else he wanted to be. However I do like to keep the site clean and as obstruction free as possible for the different trades. After the foundation is backfilled i like to go around the perimeter and fill in any holes and remove any ankle twisting rocks for the framers. Roofers and siders don't seem to have much trouble with a little debris around. Plumbers and electricians should not have any material leaning up against the walls and should be able to drag their cords around without snagging an a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with their job. Rockers when they come to my job find a very clean site with nothing in the rooms they might have to deal with some stuff in the garage. The taper gets a very clean site. etc. etc.
It comes down to two issues ( there are probably more) Safety and not wasting your subs time.
Does sound like the guy didnt want to be there that day, and I understand a clean site is important to make everything go smoothly, but a table saw and chop saw in the middle of one room with some wood chips on the floor shouldnt be cause to leave a job.
Our business is full of prima-donna's(?). If that's all you had in the house and this was his attitude at that point, I'd say good riddance. Just think of what this jackass could have done to you as the job progressed and other subs needed to work too. Your better off without him. Everybody likes a clean work enviorment but you have to be reasonable too.
Agree w/ others on the hanger.
Otherwise, broom clean.........daily.
Thanks for your posts. I'm sure the hanger was using the cleanliness of the job as an excuse. I have been a sub on jobs where the GC hasn't had the place cleaned in days, weeks, whatever and chiseled out a place to work. I think that it depends on your motivation and whether or not you WANT to work. Granted, a clean job is important, but if you need to work some amount of clutter is expected and somewhat acceptable. Is there an objective limit to the trash that you will endure? I draw the line when the waste from another trade causes more than a few minutes to pick up. But I don't leave the job without exhausting the options of letting the GC clean it up for me, like I offered the hanger.
Thanks again
Again, the hanger was a pansy.........
The G. C. 's job, (mine) is to create a place for subs to perform their finest work. (my job site) I can't think of any reasons not to have a job site broom clean other than laziness and / or disrespect.
And disrespect would be the message you convey to asks a sub to walk in, scrape a place for his tools and then take time to clean up after someone else so he can do his job. A sub bids a job figuring the cost of doing the job. Anything outside his control is seen as drain on his profit....and that's always makes people grumpy......
You know things are gonna run better when a sub walks in, looks around at your clean, debis free site and says with a grin, "Boy, this is nice, shoulda seen the last place........
Is there an objective limit to the trash that you will endure?
In tile, you bet. We have enough probs trying to stash our trash in tile boxes and whatnot. However, in the final cleanup stages, we rarely have other trades' clutter around.
There are some major pigs on any job, and some who may choose to call themselves "production-oriented" or some crap, but, JMHO, work sites should be as clean as poss at all times just for safety. After all, the tools are potentially dangerous, why risk tripping or sliding?
Bro is meticulous (to the point where he aggravates me) abt leaving every step pristine, but the owners love him like crazy. He's never advertised and always busy unless on vacation.
Yeah, I agree that broom clean before you leave is a must in remodelling. New construction might be a little different, but still, neatness counts when it comes to advertising. A lot, and I mean A LOT, of people look for it in potential G.C.s. I know I remember the subs who pick up after themselves, just like I remember the ones who start when they say they will start.
One thing I like to do is have the site ready and swept out before the sub gets there. That way they are starting in a clean environment and can have at it without those little frustrations. It sets a good example of what we expect the job to look like before the subs leave each day, too.
Neat lumber stacks is another one.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Jim, You've already said most of whjat was in my mind, especially about advertising. I've had customers comment on my clean worksites, saftey etc. usually in contrasting statements about competitors. And most subs like coming into a clean site, though some forget top leave it that way. I remember an electrician I had to train to it. At first, I'd have to call him back in to broom up after himself. Then, after awhile I could just meet him on his way out holding a broom. Then, It got to where I only needed to lean the broom near him just before quitting time and he'd give me a wink before starting to sweep. Nowdays, He knows what I want and even brings his own broom in. Patience pays with good people. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
around here we have this litter patrol from hell, they will set outside construction sites on rainy days. Every truck that leave red clay tire marks on the road get a ticket. They will show up on roofing jobs, if scrap do not fall in dumpster from roof, a ticket. Its common to see young help running around house catching scrap before hitting ground.
Interesting, isn't it?
I do little jobs - and the one thing in my van ALWAYS is the Shop-Vac.
Since most people are home after I finish work (sometimes during), I find one of the best reputation enhancers I have is that need to clean up after the job.
If I ever ask another trade in to help (electrician, plumber), I make sure I have contractor bags and I clean after them, just in case.
Sure are a lot of trades around here expect someone else to do it.At my age, my fingers & knees arrive at work an hour after I do.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Well, I think it's always been up to the GC to clean up. On my jobs, I insist on handling the cleanup for a couple of reasons. First, I want a $65 p.h. plumber to do his trade and charge me for it. I don't want to pay him to clean up. Second, most trades are lousy at clean up. Even when they attempt, we usually come in behind them and finish it up right.
How clean does a jobsite have to be before you start working
Gosh, working in tile, I never had the luxury of requesting a clean vs. not so clean site. In that trade, however, it is essential to clean up like a freak, for everyone's sake, even if part of what you are cleaning up is the electricians' snippits of wire, the carpenters' scraps, the dog's uh, you get the idea. Tile guys (and gals) clean! My bro (who is my idol re tile) is fanatic abt leaving places better than he found them, regardless of the stage of completion.
However, and you knew that was coming, if a previous sub's work has left such a mess that you have to spend extra time to clean before you can begin work, well, did you have such a clause in your contract? Will you next time?
I don't know how powerful the "hanger" was, but it sounds like he was PMSing. Did he fire the crew? That su-c-k-s. Or, maybe I don't get the point.
For all its trials, I miss the construction field.
Edited 11/20/2002 11:29:21 PM ET by kai
Generally speaking, I think every tradesman has their own level of required cleanliness before they'll start work, and some can work in a pig sty. This cabinet maker wants his work area clear of debris, lumber, other's tools, and swept or, better yet, vacuumed. I make that clear to the GC at the contract signing, so if I've got to wait or clean it myself, then that becomes an extra charge at my $105 hourly rate.
I don't install cabinets over debris or dust, and, since I clean up after myself, I expect that of the tradesmen before me. It's like shopping carts at the supermarket: if we each return our own cart, the store wouldn't have to hire help to do it for us. You might think that'd reduce the price of food.
In my experience, the drywallers were the biggest offenders. In other words, they left the biggest mess. I like the term "production oriented". Perhaps they were but whose production is improved?
-Peter
Anything you say will be mis-interpreted and used against you, you slime. Do you understand these rights?
When The HOs don't complain, I can get to everything with room to work and I can easily find the short 6-32s they use for GFI faceplates when I drop them it, IMHO, is clean enough.
I have always equated cleanliness with safety and quality. True, some jobs are messier than others, but when I see a contractor leave or work in a mess, I immediately assume they don't have enough respect for themselves, their workers or the task at hand.
Even worse are the subs that make or leave a mess on neighboring property. GCs are already spending enough effort on community relations during the disruption of a build. They really don't need inconsiderate subs. They should just be fired.
Even worse are the subs that make or leave a mess on neighboring property.
Hear Hear!! When I was trying to sell my home, they were doing construction on the home next door. Their contractor left his backhoe parked entirely on my property. This was on a Friday night and I was looking at the entire weekend with equipment in my yard. Boy was I mad! And no, I didn't sell my house that weekend. Also during that time there was a house being roofed about 2 blocks away. I found several dozen wrappers from shingle bundles in my yard. This time I found the roofer still on site and asked him about it. "Oh, I was going to clean up when I was done." Yeah, he was going to search a 4 block radius for his trash. I saw some of his wrappers a half mile away.
I am having a house built on 5 acres - that turns into a quagmire whenever it rains for a whole day. As luck would have it, it has rained incessently since pouring the foundation. My GC allowed me to take responsibility for clean-up to save costs. He said that none of his contractors have complained, even though we have had to settle for piling up most of the trash because our trailer would get stuck in the mud.... but he told me that so long as they can get their trucks to the garage and materials delivered, they are OK. Get this:
My builder did the house for my neighbour, and knows he is picky (to say the least) and that I was out of state the week the roof was done - he sent his son over to pick up the wrappers and blow-around stuff for me.
Needless to say, I am very happy with my builder!
after reading these postings I must really count my blessings for the crew of subs that we have accumulated over the last ten years. my g.c. has taught them all courtesy, cleanliness and cursing. we all have respect for one another, and the broom/vac is always handy, along with the drop cloths that show us the way to the room under remodel. they generally show up when they promise, more or less, and do top notch work. our only loser is the painter and his son, who have absolutely no business sense, and obviously no respect for anyone else that been scheduled for the same job. oh well, you can't expect perfection in construction!
Hey! another woman in construction. That's an eyecatching name and format you've got there. Welcome to BT..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
hey piffin, thanks for the welcome and the compliment. I like your "words of wisdom" ( don't know the official term for the quotes used at the end of the posting). later...
Howdy,
You've really got to fill in a little info at your profile for those who like me, are dying with curiousity to know whether you are a female carpenter who erects studs, a girl who can handle the other kind of stud or a **** or a fifty year old ex marine with peculiar ideas of a joke. LOL. The hot pink lettering is a nice touch. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Welcome to Break Time on your very first post .
Tim Mooney
First the guy had a place clean enough.....then it changed to "he had room to start"......what's next?
What's the question even about? How clean is clean enough.....obviously it wasn't clean enough.....'cause the dude left.
You think people like driving around for free? Doubt that was the big plan for the day...what'd ya think he did next.....rode around and blew off another job?
Face it...you weren't clean enough for his tastes........and he's a sub...so he can set his own work standards.
I both contract my own work..and sub. I start with...work in...and leave a very clean job site. But I don't clean up other peoples mess.
And why was stuff in the rockers way to begin with......as said before....ya generally rock the whole inside...so the whole inside should be ready for them. And as far as having a room or two ready for them to start......again....the sub decides where he's gonna start.....if he wanted you to decide how dirty a site he'd work...and in what order he was to go about his day working....he'd have asked for an application.
You got the answer the minute the guy walked......it was too dirty for him.
And I'm betting you cleaned a bit before the next crew showed up.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
"You think people like driving around for free? Doubt that was the big plan for the day...what'd ya think he did next.....rode around and blew off another job?"
I agree ^. He made a judgement call to blow off that job for some reason that is quite clear . Take it from my top thread; dude made a judgement call ,.......for some reason .
Tim Mooney
thanks Tim, for the welcome. later...
Most of us tradesmen will climb over each other and each others crap all day in the course of a work day. I try to keep up with the cleaning but it can get away from you in less than a day sometimes.
Rockers are another kind of tradesman when it comes to cleanliness. Over my career the rockers have trained me well to have the place buffed before they show up. I have also heard the pigsty compliment They have to have access to every wall and the whole ceiling in the room. They often have scaffold on rollers that snag on the slightest obstacle. The house has to be completely empty and swept. Only piles of drywall, corner bead and mud are allowed. I can't believe the posts that slighted the rocker. HE SHOWED UP TO WORK AND YOU WERE NOT READY!! I suppose he is supposed to fiddle fart around till you get it together. I would have left too.
He supposed to show up, and do his job, the job he is being paid for, hang the rock, from the description there wasn't much in the way, and sometimes in this business there are obstacles you have deal with, If I show up at some ones house to hand some trim or replace some windows or whatever, there might be things in my way, should I leave? or deal with it. I understand the ideal would be to have everything out of the way for all trades and allow for things to go smoothly, but it just doesn't happen in this business there are always obstacles to contend with the difference is, some people realize it and deal with, others bitch and moan saying they cant work. Basically if you cant deal with a few things in the way, or a few obstacles to contend with your in the wrong field.
I'm less certain than you about the original description. Tablesaw should definitely not have been in there. "A few scraps of wood laying around" is in one man's eye three or four scraps and in another man's eye it means a whole cord of firewood kindling. Electricians shavings and wire scraps suggests that they weren't done yet or had finished the day before but were to lazy to clean up after themselves. Exactly how long it took to clean up is unclear. I'm just saying that there were two opinions on the site about how bad it was. Somebody has to draw the line.
I had a job a couple years back where the insulation foam guy was scheduled to be done by three oclock and leave on the 4:30 ferry. I tiold him that I'd meet him on site at two o'clock to pay him. I saw him highballing it out of there going down the road the other way at 1:45.
He had left the job a pigsty without any cleanup or even scraping the stud faces. On nine foot walls, he had scraped them clean from knees to neck. Floor was a mess. And I had the rockers coming the next morning after having bumped them once for a week while waiting for this guy to show up. I worked unitl nine or ten that night to have the job ready for them. I was pissed that my insulator had left when he could have done the work and still made the last ferry so I backcharged him plenty. Then I found an insulator who cleans up after himself.
I used to be a roofing sub. Amazing how many people - so called builders- will call for the job to be done when the plywood sheathing isn't even al on yet! Not to mention fascia and scraps all over the roof. Call me a primadona too, guys but I walked away from more than one jobsite. This respect thing cuts both ways!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
I like the subs that don't clean up their debris, yet back up their van to your dumpster and toss in trash from a differant job they did clean up.listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Recycling!
Brinkmann for president in '04
Piffin,
You make a good point, though the site was in a perfectly acceptable state to work in. The chopsaw and table saw would have taken no more than two minutes to move into the unfinished portion of the basement. I was about to move them when the rocker showed up. As for the scrap, it was seriously 4 or 5 small cut-offs from some last minute backing. The electrician did leave somewhat of a mess, but as I have said before, 10-15 minutes and the place would have been spotless. Should I have done this the night before? Probably. I could ramble off excuses, but that is not needed.
The main thing that chapped my hide was the attitude of the hanger. I've worked with guys who were clean freaks and gotten along fine. This guy comes in like he's the only Joe on the job and leaves for what would have taken a few minutes to remedy. Hell, he wouldn't have been done complaining that the heat was on in the house by that time.
It really is for the better. I guess I learned something and that is the main thing.
You don't get it Grayling. The rocker SHOULD be the only "Joe" on the job at least in the house. You should have made arrangements to work outside or to send your crew elsewhere till the rockers were done. If you had any respect for him you would have been ready when he showed up. Real tradesmen take care of each other. Real amatuers don't know better. I suspect you don't know better.
We may be slow, But we're expensive.
I understand that they need a fairly clean environment to do their job, and I do not envy their job, but hanging rock is a low paying job because frankly its not that difficult, no disrespect intended, the guys that hang the rock are often not the ones taping, I have done my fair share taping, not an entire house but have done rooms. Point is, from what he said there were wood chips, a miter box and a small table saw in a room, walking around a little bit of wood chips and two tools is no cause to leave a job site claiming its a pig sty. And again I'm going to state I understand a work site should be as clean as possible at all times for efficiency and safety, but what's ideal is not always possible, to many people have don't understand that.
Edited 11/23/2002 12:29:59 AM ET by CAG
but hanging rock is a low paying job because frankly its not that difficult, no disrespect intended,
With that one statement you demonstrate both disrespect for a hard working tradesman and a lack of knowledge and experience in hanging rock.
For a production oriented hanger, that fifteen or twenty minutes can mean fifty bucks in lost income. If it looked to him like a half hour or more worth of cleanup, he was looking at a hundred dollar penalty for someone elses carelessness. Add to that the fact that he is setting a precedent - "Next time I work for this guy, it will be worse if I accept these conditions this time.".
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
piffin, hanging rock, just the hanging is not really that hard, Im sorry. As for the cleanliness, this argument is mute, I really dont know what the conditions were like at the job site, but from the way it was described it was wood chips on the floor and two tools, which the GC could have moved himself while the rocker started in a different room it is not cause to leave and thats the last I have to say about this subject
"I suspect you don't know better."
Your assumption is off base. My whole point was that this guy had ample space to start. He had a bedroom and a studio that were in great shape. The main family/ rec. room was the only room that had the tools and wire scraps. The large room would have been spotless in a few minutes, before he even had the first sheet on the lid of the bedroom.
A professional would have either started or scheduled another time, this fella didn't do either. Am I 100% right in this situation, no. Was I 100% willing to take care of this guy, yes. When you assume that I don't know better, that is a false assumption.
You are getting defensive now. Maybe you are right and the rocker was way off base in his reactions. You still got it done.
My comment that there was no way that the tablesaw belonged in there is based on the fact that I respect my tools better than to leave them where the rockers are coming in. That, to me. indicates that you maybe didn't know better. Any production crew I've ever seen will be flinging and slinging and walking on the tablesaw. That's just reality..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Every carpenter should hang one house and tape it to understand. Its a very low paying job where speed is called for to make a living . Rockers work for pennies per foot . They hang houses in one day and make a small amount compared to the amount of work that is turned off.
The second set of rockers that did the job walked into a clean job. He would have had the job done by the first ones if it would have been clean.
On the other side the rockers could have been behind in their work , if that was the case they should have came back the next day to hang his house , but I didnt hear him say they would.
The main thing is that , that set of hangers made a judgement call the others didnt have to make. He returned that judgement call with one of his own and hired another set with the job clean. I dont see a problem on either side . I would have moved to another house and promised to be there on another day . [Piffin cleaned the house that night because he knew what he was dealing with hiring rockers.] The ball would have been in his court then and I would not have cared which he chose. Evidently those hangers didnt care either, but I think they should have promised him a later date.
Tim Mooney
I would usually come down on the side of the rock guy...the simple fact is in the trades we have lost a lot of the respect for doing things neatly and right. I know that will make some of the folks here mad but its true.
Look at most any job site and see if any electrician has bothered to clean up the wire stips, the insulation and cut offs...almost never..
And ask a plumber to sweep..may as well make a pig sing. Roofers could care less what hits the ground.
The finish guys still tend to clean, but no way will most carpenters go beyond picking up cut offs and stacking in a pile.
Now, lets go back...some do a very great job on site and I do know of one general contarctor who requires to be cleaned every week to a T..and every night to some degree. I had some experience with a crew of guys who build high end Pole Barns..Morton Buildings. The crew cheief on that bunch was the neatest I have ever seen. The site was spotless before during and after.
I see this as Pride...some have it, others just dont care. The end product usually reflects the care that goes into it so I always figure the slobs do sloppy work.Wine is God's way of capturing the sun.
Well I dont understand Rockers thinking they are holyier than thou (spelling??) They require everything cleared out & sweep but leave the biggest mess of any subs. Plaster in electrical boxes all over the floors and windows. They got to be the least considerate of them all.
JMHO, Roger
Are you talking about sheet rock hangers or plaster finishers? That's usually two different crews. Mine clean everything up - broom clean anyway..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
We clean as we go.Sounds like your rocker didn't want to be there.We are really lucky with our subs.Sometimes they pitch in if we are behind in cleanup.I wouldnt call him back.I think he needs to learn to work together with people.With abad attiude he wont be around long.As far as clean,we like it safe and neat.It looks good to the customer and makes a smooth running job.
framer
or...the guy might be the tops in his field....and he doesn't have to clean up before he makes money.
sometimes.........it's nice......to be good enough.........to call your own shots.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........