I had a standing seam steel roof professionally installed in early November 2008 on my new home and detached garage in <!—-><!—-> <!—->Michigan<!—-> <!—->. Roofs are all 12-12 pitch and I specified the use of Titanium UDL-30 (high temp) underlayment… steel panels were secured to the roof sheathing with hidden fasteners spaced every 2 feet. About 5 weeks after completion, the center 90% of panels on one side of my garage SLID off the roof! The crew was out immediately to repair. They did this by using the same fastening system, but every 1 foot instead. They had never seen or heard of this happening before. We had some high winds that they said could have caused the panels to vibrate and work themselves loose from the fasteners. Fast forward to today. I was walking around my new home (still under construction) visually inspecting things and I noticed that on the opposite side of the garage and on one portion of the house – the steel panels have slid down approximately 1-3 inches. Obviously, I will contact the roofing company first thing Monday morning, but I’m curious to know what could be causing this and has anyone heard of this before. Thanks, Lee.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Newer pressure treatments don't offer the same rot and decay resistance. Follow these simple strategies to give outdoor lumber its best chance of survival.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Bump.
That sounds heinous! What kind of 'hidden fasteners' are we talking about, and what brand of roofing? I have installed standing seam a number of times and had it installed several more, always a 'snap lock' variety. With that type of system, the panels are attached with washer-head screws that go thru holes in the panels, along one edge. That edge is covered when the next panel is snapped on. There is virtually no way a roof like this could simply slide off. Please post a link to the mfr. and the system if possible.
Wow. My guess is you've either got some defective clips or the installers are using the wrong clips. Never heard of this before.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The 'hidden fasteners' I described are the type that hold onto the seam, are screwed down to the sheathing and then covered up by the next 16" inch wide standing seam panel. No penetrations through the panels occur with this system, also allowing for slight expansion/contraction. I was told this type of fastener was superior over fastening directly into the panel because it wouldn't produce ripples in the panel during expansion/contraction. I'm not sure what the correct name is for these fasteners.
The steel panels were fabricated locally by a shop supplied with the raw, rolled Kynar coated material. I'm not sure the name of this product either.
the panels are supposed to be able to slide in the clip.The panels are secured thru the panel at the ridge only by the ridge cap Z closure and secured at the eave by folding 1 1/2'' of the bottom of the panel so it hooks onto a eave drip edge.Aparently your panels were not secured properly
http://www.atas.com/Portals/0/Products/Roofs/Dutch%20Seam/InstallGuides/Dutch%20Seam%20Install%20Guide%204%20page.pdf
Edited 2/8/2009 11:28 pm ET by tomstruble
Edited 2/8/2009 11:29 pm ET by tomstruble
Some brands use a reciever at the eave, soem get fasteners on the face Depends on the brand and the wind load.
I have done several here that used a crimper to crimp the seams tight just above clips in two places on the length of the panel.
Allowed for expansion contraction but prevented the panels from sliding down roof.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We did a snap-lock on Stennis EOC that was clipped, face screwed at the eaves, face screws into the z-bar, and face screwed the ridge to the z every 8 inches.
Then it was seamed with a power crimper. This gives 150 mph windload. Roofing came from Columbus, GA, I believe.
Heeres a picture.
View Image
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
thanks everybody i learned i didnt know as much as i thought.This iswhat im familiar with
It shouldn't be too hard to make sure it doesn't happen again. The clips act as hold downs so the panels don't lift. A couple of washer head screws through each panel under the ridge cap will prevent slipping.
A couple of washer head screws through each panel under the ridge cap will prevent slipping.
That will also prevent expansion and contraction. Most hidden fastener systems need to be free at the top and bottom. Most hidden fastener systems are thicker gauge metal and have fairly significant expansion thrust.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
just the ridge is secured allowing the rest of the panel to expand and contract, there should be no screws thru the pan area visible ,washer head or otherwise
Edited 2/8/2009 11:54 pm ET by tomstruble
to say it shouldnt be to hard is easy to say.Not so easy to do
??? Take off the metal ridge, screw down the panels, replace the ridge.The difficult part of installing metal roofs is cutting and flashing. The rest is easy and goes very quickly.This week I'm tearing off the asphalt shingles on a 600 sf roof and replacing it with snap lock metal roof. I'm working alone and have to be finished by Wednesday pm.
I guess it's worth asking what type of roof sheathing you have and what type of screws were used? If the sheathing is 7/16" OSB, and the fasteners you described need to pinch the edge of the panel, then the screws would have to be driven tightly... but OSB is easy to strip out... and 7/16" is not very thick to start with... so my bet would be on an unskilled operator on the screwgun, either stripping those screws out or not driving them tightly enough for fear of stripping. Might want to get a skilled hand on the roof to dial that in.
the clips hold the panel down the panel is supposed to be able to move the panel is screwed thru the deck only at the ridge
"wippee for you!! I was just trying to state that on a metal roof that steep is not easy."
No, no, I'm not boasting. I'm not a roofer and I'm slow. It just seems like an easy fix. His roofer has already been up and down the whole field changing all the clips. A few screws at the ridge just shouldn't take much time or effort for him.
I'm using Pro-loc 12" roofing panels that snap together. (I guess "Snap Lock" is a brand?)
sorry i thought you were yellin at me and i apologize its late
Edited 2/9/2009 1:25 am ET by tomstruble
If only I could include the intonation in my voice when I type. I guess I should start using more emoticons :)
i searched snap lock roofing and i learned a few things
it is a standing seam type lock i didn't know they made a standing seam roof that gets fastened directly to the deck without clips,interesting
the snap lock panels i was familiar with didn't have a vertical leg in the seam and were more suitable as a commercial siding or mansard type material
thanks ya learned me something tonite
Edited 2/9/2009 2:07 am ET by tomstruble
normally depending on the panel manufacturer the ridge cap is hemed on the underside on each side .This hem locks onto a Z Shaped closure that is screwed down thru the pan in between the ribs into the roof decking,this is what secures the panels from sliding down.This Z closure can either be solid or vented.
Sometimes this ridge detail is a real bear to install because its locked in and doesn't usually want to come apart easily especially when your working on a 12/12 roof
more clips are not going to keep the panels from sliding down
Edited 2/9/2009 2:25 am ET by tomstruble
(I guess "Snap Lock" is a brand?)
"Snap lock" is a type of seam and is what you're using. Standing seam has to have the seam "rolled" after it's attached to the roof. Many people think the snap lock seam is a standing seam since they look similar from the ground.
Snap lock (one of many proprietary profiles):
View Image
View Image
And true standing seam:
View Image
View Image
Both the above use clips. Then there's the screw directly to the roof variety:
View Image
View Image
Now, add to all this that there are proprietary versions of each of these and proprietary installation instructions. Any system that I've seen that uses clips should not be face screwed.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
yes you are correct sir my bad but again they are screwed thru the closure into the deck at the ridge if not they will slide down
and thanks for the education between snap lock and mechanically seamed
have a great day was nice talking to you
tom
Edited 2/9/2009 9:06 am ET by tomstruble
Edited 2/9/2009 9:13 am ET by tomstruble
If it's a snap lock system, the closure pieces are screwed down. If it's true standing seam (that's what the OP said it was, but I suspect it's actually hidden fastener snap lock), then the closure pieces get pop riveted so the pans can move.
I just reviewed several different brand installation manuals and this seems to hold true for the all the brands I reviewed.
I don't typically do a lot of preformed metal roofs, but I do lots of brake formed copper projects.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I appreciate everyone's input on my dilemma. After speaking with the installers, I can desribe the system as a hidden fastener snap-lock system - like Mr. Seeya suggested. I also confirmed that the ridge pieces are riveted into a C-Channel that the pans slide up into. There is no good way to screw the pans down under the ridge cap - however this is what was done to solve the problem. My roofing subcontractor was very prompt in getting this resolved. Let's hope this doesn't continue.
After speaking to another local installer (who uses this same system)... he said there should be nothing screwed through the pan, that the hidden fasteners should hold the pans down. Without inspecting the job, he suggested that the wrong fasteners may have been used or the screws securing the fasteners down were stripped into the OSB sheathing - creating a loose hold.
Thanks again to everyone.
That's the stuff. I have found it fairly idiot-proof even for non-roofers such as myself. In addition to screwing through the slots, my manufacturer suggests a gasketed screw mid-panel at the eaves to further protect against wind damage. The expansion then occurs upwards from this one fixed point. I would think that on a steep pitch relying on clips without any fixed attachment would make any roof susceptible to creep over time as it cycles through its expansion and contractions.
My limited experience with all of the "true" standing seam panels has been with low pitch, commercial buildings where the attachment is directly to steel purlins. The panels have all been considerably heavier gauge than residential material as well. Even with 26ga panels, I would not trust that type of attachment system on a 12/12 roof. The clips are designed primarily for a low pitch (1/12 or even less) with huge runs and expansion potential. It is basically a "floating" roof in my opinion.My Custom Bilt SL100 "lock seam" snap together had pancake screws into the roof sheathing every 16" and then two screws through the "Z" and the panel in the flats underneath the vented ridge cap. I defy anyone to get that to budge. The panels are slotted around the screws and there is only a hem at the eve. With daily temp swings of 50* common here, I have not noticed any ill effects from expansion or contraction.I would suggest contacting the manufacturer directly and visiting with their engineering deparment. You may be looking at loss of warranty based on the installation you have. I would NOT sign off on the roof or pay the roofing contractor until a concensus has been reached and written proof or warranty from the manufacturer has been granted.
As tomstruble said, most standing seam installations have a ridge cap that slides over z-metal on either side of the ridge that has been screwed through the pans, thereby preventing them from siding down. I've also done one or two like the old-fashioned ones where the two pieces opposite each other are actually folded together on the ridge. I've only done one snap lock installation, but the ridge was the same z-metal detail.How is the ridge detailed on yours?Steve
Lee,
Here is a link to the installation instructions for Fabrals standing seam. I am using this on my detached garage. It is pretty specific about using fasteners in the top of each panel under the ridge cap in order to keep them from sliding. Like the others said, the hold down clips have to allow the panels to move as the heat up and cool off. Adding more of them is not the solution. I understood this pretty well and I am just a dumb DIY'r :)
http://www.fabral.com/installation/1-1-2ssr.pdf
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Edited 2/9/2009 7:30 pm ET by MrBill