How do I apply brick to a foundo wall ??
SHORT VERSION:
1) Can I mortar new full-size bricks directly onto a freshly-poured concrete stem wall?
2) Should I wait longer than 7 days for the fresh concrete to cure, before applying brick?
3) Using the top surface of the footing as a brick ledge for support, can the bricks be applied directly to the face of the stem wall with Type S masonry mortar? My thought is to apply a thick coat of stiff sticky mortar directly onto the face of the stem wall, back-butter each individual brick, and then fully embed them into the mortar on the wall. Any reason not to do it this way?
4) If brick is mortared directly onto concrete substrate, are corrugated brick ties necessary? Scratch coat? What about weep holes?
Thanks in advance for looking!
Cheers,
Globe Trotter
Burlington, Oregon
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LONG-WINDED VERSION:
First-time reader and first-time poster, very impressed with all the the good-natured dialogue and the willingness of experts to share ideas and advice!
Just poured a combo footing and foundation stem wall under an existing one-story rural farmhouse. Quite a project for a first-timer, made some mistakes, but nothing too drastic. Now that the forms are stripped, mud sill installed, and the rain drain placed and backfilled, I’m on to “dressing up” the exposed face of the stem wall. The wall is 12″ high, measured from the top of the footing ledge to the top of the stem wall where the bottom of the mud sill plate sits. I have a few pallets of new full-size brick that were given to me by a generous neighbor, and I want to use them as facing for the stem wall. I’ve never laid brick before, so I’ve done some research and some reading, and now I’m on the verge of sufferring from analysis paralysis 🙂
Much of my confusion revolves around the issue of how best to apply the brick to the wall, that is to say, the technical specs & details for installation. Many sources (books, manuals, how-to guides, etc) recommend leaving an air gap or some kind of ventilation channel behind the brick (between the back of the brick & the face of the concrete wall). I certainly understand why someone would do this if you were facing the entire structure, 10′ up or something like that, but it seems unnecessary for only 3 or 4 courses that won’t extend up vertically past the top of the stem wall. (Fact is, at least the bottom course, and perhaps even the bottom two courses of brick, will eventually be in direct contact with some of the dirt from the flower beds that will surround portions of the perimeter of the foundo – not an ideal situation, & not nearly the clearance I would have preferred, but that’s how the grade worked out). There’s also the issue of weep holes – if I apply the brick directly onto the wall, I wouldn’t need weep holes, right? And what about those corrugated brick ties – are those necessary when/if the brick is mortared directly onto the concrete? I’m also confused about scratch coats – is that something I need consider?
The home is clad in vinyl siding, and I know I have some challenges ahead of me dealing with proper flashing techniques, trying to effectively marry all these dissimilar materials. In order to place the forms for the footing & wall, we had to remove several of the lower courses of the vinyl siding, much of which was brittle and subsequently splintered or broke during the removal process. My intent is to face the foundo wall with the free brick, and then transition from the top of the brick to the bottom of the remaining vinyl siding with a few courses of cedar shingles (shakes?), which would be applied over the underlying framing sheathing. I’m baffled about how to properly address the flashing details in that propostion, so I’ll post my questions about all that in a follow-up plea for help 🙂
So, there you have it. Sorry about rambling on like that, but I figured it best to provide as much relevant info as possible. If anyone would share advice or wisdom with a greenhorn that simply wants to learn the right way, I’d be very grateful.
Many thanks!
Replies
HEY GLOBE I,m fairly new here myself, but I am a mason.--- where do I begin...
The only reason they dont let chimps& gorillas lay brick and block is they are
an endangered speacies. meaning its fairly simple to to a good job if you
take your time to practice stringing the mud" mortar" in somewhat a organized
fashion and remember to cut off the exzcess mud and not smear it ,keep things
plumb and level and as most of these buisness types complain about masons is keep
a clean work area.--heck we are playing in mud not rubbibg two sticks togeather
you will find it is easierto keep everything plumb and level if you do have an air space
between the brick and concretewall if you have an overabundance of mud behind the
brick esp. starting on the 3rd course they will start floating around even after youve
plumbed and leveled them the airspace helps them to stay where you put them. yes
do use some brick tyes you will be glad you did ----welllp good luck I have a bunch of
kin in OR.never met most of them heck you might even be one heheh ohhh by the
way welcome to breaktime- here's mud in yer eye .DW
Howdy Dedubya:
Much obliged for your recommendations, I will certainly invest in some brick ties!
Is the simplest thing to do just to affix them to the stem wall with a concrete nail?
Thanks,
Globe Trotter
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HEY GLOBE-- that reminds me I use to have a bear dog named globby
he was a mean son of a gun,part norwegien elkhound part pit didnt
have any sense- I81 got him.well anyway I always use ramset/powder
fasteners.Be sure to use you safety glasses thoughalso that few of coures
dont worry about weep holes just leave a few head joints out every 4 to 6'
in length above grade that should enough venting for that wall you will have
enough mortar fall behind the brick that it will usally build up a few inches
from the bottom.----- after reading you did leave enough space -offset-so you
can use full whyth brick didnt u? under your siding.---DW
You can lay brick on the new wall, you do not have to wait more than one day. As far as the rest of your questions, sorry I am not a brick layer.
mike
can I assume this is in a frost-free location?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Hello Piffin-
Yes, you are correct, no worries about frost heave around here. We're not too far from Portland, so winters aren't very severe.
Thanks,
Globe Trotter
===================================================
"My intent is to face the foundo wall with the free brick, and then transition from the top of the brick to the bottom of the remaining vinyl siding with a few courses of cedar shingles (shakes?), which would be applied over the underlying framing sheathing. I'm baffled about how to properly address the flashing details in that propostion, so I'll post my questions about all that in a follow-up plea for help :)"
The transition is going to be the tough part.
If you leave a gap, you are going to need weep holes at the bottom.
How much of this is below grade?
Hello Snowmon -
We haven't quite figured out how all the grading will work itself out, so I don't have a definitive answer to your question. I suspect that the bottom course will certainly be in contact with the flower bed dirt. My hope is that nothing more than that will.
Fingers crossed!
Thanks,
Globe Trotter
Fact is, at least the bottom course, and perhaps even the bottom two courses of brick, will eventually be in direct contact with some of the dirt...There's also the issue of weep holes - if I apply the brick directly onto the wall, I wouldn't need weep holes, right?
You always "want" weep holes--because you always want to know where water will go (as guessing is under-recommended).
You will want your weep holes higher than that elevation. You can fill in the airspace to that elevation behind the brick. to accomplish that. Now, whether you use the fibre weeps or a "blind" weep (no mortar, just a space) is down to you or your mason. The fiber cords are slightly nicer if you have crickets about, so they do not "sing" in the airspace.
My intent is to face the foundo wall with the free brick, and then transition from the top of the brick to the bottom of the remaining vinyl siding
Best bet there is a rowlock course, even with all the cuts that entails. This would be a course on edge, pitched up 1/4" or so to meet up with the wall. If that point on the wall is not concrete, the wall will need felt so that you do not have mortar in contact with wood. You'll want to flash the wall to brick joint as well.
Be advised, if you shingle up to the vinyl, you will be very likely to not be happy with the remaining vinyl (especially if it is brittle), and you may find yourself in a "might as well as" situation replacing the siding. That's life remodeling too, enjoy <g>.
Hello CapnMac-
Thanks for your comments and observations. That "rowlock" suggestion sounds dynamite. And your remark about getting into this whole ordeal & then deciding to forego all the vinyl siding is very astute. I've been waffling on that whole issue since day one, but simply don't have the budget to justify it.
Many thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Globe Trotter
ps: any chance that you're a JB fan? Seem to recall that footnote of yours from an old tune of his, "Pirate Looks at Forty"..........
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Fact is, at least the bottom course, and perhaps even the bottom two courses of brick, will eventually be in direct contact with some of the dirt...There's also the issue of weep holes - if I apply the brick directly onto the wall, I wouldn't need weep holes, right?
You always "want" weep holes--because you always want to know where water will go (as guessing is under-recommended).
You will want your weep holes higher than that elevation. You can fill in the airspace to that elevation behind the brick. to accomplish that. Now, whether you use the fibre weeps or a "blind" weep (no mortar, just a space) is down to you or your mason. The fiber cords are slightly nicer if you have crickets about, so they do not "sing" in the airspace.
My intent is to face the foundo wall with the free brick, and then transition from the top of the brick to the bottom of the remaining vinyl siding
Best bet there is a rowlock course, even with all the cuts that entails. This would be a course on edge, pitched up 1/4" or so to meet up with the wall. If that point on the wall is not concrete, the wall will need felt so that you do not have mortar in contact with wood. You'll want to flash the wall to brick joint as well.
Be advised, if you shingle up to the vinyl, you will be very likely to not be happy with the remaining vinyl (especially if it is brittle), and you may find yourself in a "might as well as" situation replacing the siding. That's life remodeling too, enjoy <g>.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That "rowlock" suggestion sounds dynamite.
Yeah well, it's a medium-common way to detail out a window sill--which is close to what you have.
And your remark about getting into this whole ordeal & then deciding to forego all the vinyl siding is very astute.
Not my first rodeo, as the old saying goes in these parts.
I've been waffling on that whole issue since day one, but simply don't have the budget to justify it.
Never do, not in remodeling.
ps: any chance that you're a JB fan?
Longtime Parrothead. Yep, straight cut from PLaF.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Howdy again, CapnMac -
Thought you'd wanna know.........we got going today on the project and just couldn't stop ourselves.......ended up yanking off nearly half the vinyl siding. We knew there were old shingles underneath the vinyl in some spots, but we weren't properly prepared for what we found: virtually pristine grooved sidewall shakes, row after row after row of `em. Granted, there are some spots that will require R & R, and I'll end up spending a bunch of time & paying special attention to all the penetrations and flashing, but on balance, I'm thrilled with what we found. Some gentle pressure-washing and general cleaning, and we'll be in good shape!
Much obliged!
Globe Trotter
-Oregon
=================================================
That "rowlock" suggestion sounds dynamite.
Yeah well, it's a medium-common way to detail out a window sill--which is close to what you have.
And your remark about getting into this whole ordeal & then deciding to forego all the vinyl siding is very astute.
Not my first rodeo, as the old saying goes in these parts.
I've been waffling on that whole issue since day one, but simply don't have the budget to justify it.
Never do, not in remodeling.
ps: any chance that you're a JB fan?
Longtime Parrothead. Yep, straight cut from PLaF.
never apologize for too much info.
i want to expand on Snowmon's point about the transition.
i suspect that the outside face of your new concrete wall is close to being in alignment with the face of your wood wall sheathing.
is this correct ?
if so, applying brick veneer pushes the foundation face out 4". that makes for a really difficult transition. i understand what you want to do with the cedar shakes, but it won't fit the style of your home. i think this is what you want:
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/jmberkhses/2619parker.jpg
but that is a shingle style house, not a rural farmhouse. making the transition work gets really complicated with curved blocking and sheathing. and it's always a maintenance issue with stain or paint on the cedar shakes in the transition area. if my assumptions are correct, my recommendation is to give your friend's bricks back and either buy thin bricks and bond them to the foundation or just smooth finish the concrete walls with stucco.
carpenter in transition
Hello "TimKline":
You are spot on about the respective planes of the various materials. The outside face of the stem wall is indeed close to being in alignment with the sheathing above. Don't know if you spotted my response to "CapnMac" about the cedar shingles we discovered under the vinyl siding? We've got some decisions to make here soon. Really appreciate your advice, please wish us luck!
Much obliged,
Globe Trotter
Oregon
=======================================================
never apologize for too much info.
i want to expand on Snowmon's point about the transition.
i suspect that the outside face of your new concrete wall is close to being in alignment with the face of your wood wall sheathing.
is this correct ?
if so, applying brick veneer pushes the foundation face out 4". that makes for a really difficult transition. i understand what you want to do with the cedar shakes, but it won't fit the style of your home. i think this is what you want:
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/jmberkhses/2619parker.jpg
but that is a shingle style house, not a rural farmhouse. making the transition work gets really complicated with curved blocking and sheathing. and it's always a maintenance issue with stain or paint on the cedar shakes in the transition area. if my assumptions are correct, my recommendation is to give your friend's bricks back and either buy thin bricks and bond them to the foundation or just smooth finish the concrete walls with stucco.
carpenter in transition
globe... your foundation wall has to be waterproofed before you apply the brick veneer.. you have to assume water will get behind the brick.. so you need a barrier at the concrete to stop the water
then you need a path for that water to get out.. so you leave a space between the brick and the foundation.. that space has a bottom with weep holes in it.. the bottom can be at the footing.. if there is provision for the water to drain at the footing
or.. it can be at finished grade..
assume the water is getting thru the brick.. so it runs down the concrete wall until it hits the "bottom" then channels move it to the weep holes and back out to daylight or drainage
keeping the space from getting clogged with mortar is a trick...some use rope behind the brick , laid on top of the brick ties , after they back trowel the bricks , the mortar falls on the rope ... they grab two ends and lift the rope and the loose mortar out of the space .. then replace the rope
if you are laying in a full bed , with lots of squeezeout, it's hard to keep the space clear.. so go for reasonably clear
someone was talking about a watertable course in a previous post.. that's a nice detail ... use a 10 to 15 deg bevel and cut the bricks in half, this will give you about 5" on the top side.. jutting the brick about 1" past the face of the veneer
or you can make a wood or composite watertable for the top of the brick as the transition between the veneer and the vinyl siding
Hello Mike:
Thanks much for your thoughtful & well-considered reply. I would never have thought to waterproof the foundo wall. Your suggestion of using a rope as a temporary means to prevent stray mortar intrusion is wonderful, & I will definitely use it. I do plan on doing some type of water table, whether it's masonry, composite, or wood. When I figure out precisely which direction wer're gonna head, I'll repost with some specific questions about flashing details, etc.
I'm guessing that a waterproofing treatment is something as simple as a quick-drying store-bought clear sealer, that I could apply with a pump sprayer or daub brush?
Any chance that the application of the waterproofing would ever inhibit the mortar bond?
Thanks again,
Globe Trotter
Oregon
=====================================================
globe... your foundation wall has to be waterproofed before you apply the brick veneer.. you have to assume water will get behind the brick.. so you need a barrier at the concrete to stop the water
then you need a path for that water to get out.. so you leave a space between the brick and the foundation.. that space has a bottom with weep holes in it.. the bottom can be at the footing.. if there is provision for the water to drain at the footing
or.. it can be at finished grade..
assume the water is getting thru the brick.. so it runs down the concrete wall until it hits the "bottom" then channels move it to the weep holes and back out to daylight or drainage
keeping the space from getting clogged with mortar is a trick...some use rope behind the brick , laid on top of the brick ties , after they back trowel the bricks , the mortar falls on the rope ... they grab two ends and lift the rope and the loose mortar out of the space .. then replace the rope
if you are laying in a full bed , with lots of squeezeout, it's hard to keep the space clear.. so go for reasonably clear
someone was talking about a watertable course in a previous post.. that's a nice detail ... use a 10 to 15 deg bevel and cut the bricks in half, this will give you about 5" on the top side.. jutting the brick about 1" past the face of the veneer
or you can make a wood or composite watertable for the top of the brick as the transition between the veneer and the vinyl siding
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd put something more substantial than a clear sealer on the concrete foundation
we break our snap ties, then seal the snap tie holes with plastic roof cement, then give the foundation 2 coats of asphalt based foundation coat
some of the newer systems are better , but i'm happy with the old asphalt based system
you don't want a bond of the mortar to the concrete, the only contract between the 2 walls are the brick ties, your veneer wall is clear of the foundation wall by about 1/2 " to 1 "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Heya Mike:
Many thanks for the clarification on the sealer, I really appreciate your advice, and all the other suggestions from the many thoughtful readers and posters -
Very much obliged!
Thanks,
Globe Trotter
Oregon
================================================
i'd put something more substantial than a clear sealer on the concrete foundation
we break our snap ties, then seal the snap tie holes with plastic roof cement, then give the foundation 2 coats of asphalt based foundation coat
some of the newer systems are better , but i'm happy with the old asphalt based system
you don't want a bond of the mortar to the concrete, the only contract between the 2 walls are the brick ties, your veneer wall is clear of the foundation wall by about 1/2 " to 1 "
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore