I have a concrete driveway that needs to be replaced ( about 900 square feet).
We live in Delaware.
1st guy-
>Did some work for us years ago. We liked him. I can’t even leave a message cause his mail box is always full. Maybe he takes the winter off?
2nd guy-
I saw a concrete guy do a nice driveway for one of my neighbors.
I call, we talk and set up a meeting. He doesn’t show, I call, he forgot. Not a big deal for me. He agrees to call me over the weekend when he’s caught up, all is well. He never calls.
3rd guy-
I’ve seen his work and it looks respectable. I call, he say’s ” I’ll be in touch later this week to set something up” That was 2 weeks ago.
4th guy- ( Medium sized local outfit)
I call and leave Name, Number, Brief description on the machine.
The next day my wife finds an “estimate” tucked into the screen door of our porch. I never even saw the guy!!!
5th guy-
Advertises 35 years experience, I picked him out of the phone book.
He comes up with an estimate the works out to about $925 a yard / $17 square foot installed.
OUCH!
Am I nuts? Tell me this isn’t normal!
Replies
No need to yell.
For $17 sq ft you can buy a lot of concrete tools. Maybe even a small used loader to take out the old drive <G>
Junkhound,
yeah it seams a bit high.
I would be tempted to go after it myself one section at at time, but my body just won't tolerate that kind of bull work any more. And that's a He!! of a lot of concrete to finish for a weekend warrior.
For a company that has a dedicated sales staff or perhaps an owner that just estimates, invoices and pays bills, I would say it would be odd to not hear back. For operations where the owner is on site along with doing the other business running chores-you probably can half expect it as long as they are busy.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
How much was the "screen door" estimate?
Zoo Guy,
The screen door estimate was $9300, but it's useless because the guy didn't bid on what I wanted done ( we never talked). I left a brief message and he ran with it. What he did write is very hard to read, it ddin't even have measurements or amount of concrete called out.
Are you asking if the lack of response is normal or if the price is normal?
Homeowners, for whatever reason, usually have poorer responses than contractors (but not always).
Not knowing the scope of the job makes it difficult to say what a proper price would be.
If I called my concrete sub he would be there that day or first thing in the morning to look at the job. With just your description of 900sf replacement I would write a check for $3155 for that job and watch it done within 3-5 days after the initial call. That breaks down to (approx.) $1035 labor, $800 disposal - concrete is HEAVY - and $1320 for the concrete. I use 5 inches for a driveway.
Oh, yeah... it's Florida. No one has to lay down a base.
Hey Ralph,
Are you asking if the lack of response is normal or if the price is normal?
I guess I got hit from both ends, the $17 a square foot guy is WAY HIGH. Simply cant afford to spend that on a driveway.
I just can't get over how people don't call back or show up.
If your a pro and you have a working deal with a good sub, that I can understand. But who writes a check to a guy who does "Screen door estimates" and you never even see the guy???
The going rate in my area is $6 - $7 a square foot, so I'm told. I could live with $9 or $10 a square if that's how it work out.
It's just a big double wide driveway right next to the street.
Stay tuned, maybe one of the other guy's will get enough time to call me back.
In some ways it is fortunate we have irresponsible contractors who will not return calls, show up for meetings, create timely bids, etc., becasue it makes those of us who do look real good.
In this business it is often true that 80% of your success is just showing up.
You are right. Many years ago a man asked me to a small job that took only a few days. When I was done he told me that he was surprised that I showed up on time each day until the job was done. When he saw that he gave me the entire job and did not sign any contracts with anyone else. He had so much work which needed to be done that the job lasted me about a long time. The same thing happened with a man a few years earlier. For about the past 25 years I have done most of the work for that businessman.
yeah it's kind of like that here ( I work quality in a factory).
Show up on time every day, don't screw stuff up, and you quickly become one of the key players.
Show up on time every day, don't screw stuff up, and you quickly become one of the key players.
Hey, you just wrote a one sentence business plan, just about guaranteed to work!!!
At the end of a kitchen project a few years back the homeowner presented me with a bonus check. Inside the card it read "This is for you because you showed up, and did what you said you would do, and always let me know if you weren't going to be here."
Another place the homeowner laughed when I showed up the day I said i would. He said he was financially ahead on the project because he just one a hundred dollar bet in the office pool as to whether his contractor would start on time.
Bowz
We just had a thread about how hard it is to get kids interested in the trades. Anyone care to guess what a shortage does to prices? Moreover, not a single trade apprenticeship teaches you business skills. This results in lots of small contractors who 'drop the ball' on fairly basic things - like having someone answer the phone, make bids, etc. One fact of contracting life is that time you can't bill for is time you don't get paid for. Like, say, going to meet a possible customer, and discuss the job. Of course, your expenses still happen during these times, so the effect of a "free estimate" is to increase the rate charged for 'working' time. That's how the guy ends up charging $100 / hr for a job performed by an $8 / hr laborer. You're paying for him, the office girl, the guy doing estimates, etc. Not to mention all the other business expenses; those trucks and uniforms cost money. Finally, to dig up an old joke, you want to find sympathy ... look in the dictionary :) The contractor has absolutely no interest in your broken, ugly drive. You will be able to survive for decades to come with that drive. He'll do the job when he can, IF you pay, and has no reason to quote a low price. He knows you won't be out there with hammer, chisel, shovel, and float!
"He knows you won't be out there with hammer, chisel, shovel, and float!"I'd guess your right 99% of the time with that statement. I also agree the free estimates are costing him money, BUT, wouldn't it be easier to say your not interested rather than set a time and not show up? Common Courtesy really.
txlandlord,
you are so right.
I can't tell you how many times--as a customer is handing me a check-- they say something like ( ya know--- i called so many people---you are the ONLY one who even showed up---and you showed up ON TIME!)
eventually--I figured it out.-- tell the prospect a specific time that you are coming-----or even when you return a phone call--and get an answering machine--- give a specific time that you are going to call back---------------------------
and then absolutely HIT the times exact.
your batting average skyrockets---because before you ever do a lick of work---you have already proved to the prospect-that you do EXACTLY what you say you are gonna do--exactly WHEN you say you are gonna do it.
I remember a couple/three years ago siding a twinplex for an old customer. I came every standard work day and worked from 8:00 untill 5:00 taking about 45 minutes for lunch------at the end of the job--the customer said" your work ethic just STUNS me"
what the hell is stunning about THAT?---people are suprised when somebody shows up, works a full day and goes home?--sheesh!!!!
Stephen
at the end of the job--the customer said" your work ethic just STUNS me"
what the hell is stunning about THAT?---people are suprised when somebody shows up, works a full day and goes home?--sheesh!!!!
It is nice being in a trade where so many keep the standards low. Showing up is indeed a way to success.
Another area I have found to be fruitful and impressive when (like you) I consider that I am only doing what is right and necessary is the area of contract and other paperwork.
I could tell you several stories about how our paperwork and preparation has won a job when competing against other builders. I guess people figure that if I have done a thorough job of the paperwork, I will express and continue the same character within the actual build.
I was shown a one page proposal for a 5400 SF home, serioulsy submitted with expectations by a competing builder.
Remember the A student in high school? When a special project report or paper was due they submitted a typed, titled report in a clear front binder with an index and maps? Mine were scribbled, plagerized and altogether sloppy.
Well, if the competition is in class with me (now), he had best shape up. I am now doing A student type work. I don't get a grade........I win the job and make money.
You are so right! Works for me, too.
Always enjoy your posts._______________________________________________________________
To fly, we have to have resistance. -Maya Lin
While we are kicking it around, how about the whiner--But I have two other guys that said they would do it for 1/3 of that--will you do it for that. Guys, let me tell you what he meant to say.....My brother-in-law thinks that if I could pay somebody to patch it up at minimum wage a good price would be xxx. Classic poor negotiation technic. I will give a great example from just yesterday. I got a new work trailer and wanted vinyl graphics on it. I paid $175 for my last trailers graphic, but put it on myself, I did not do a good job. I went to a sign company this time and had them design, with my input,all of my graphics. I paid $700. this time and feel like I got the best end of the deal. When I left there I noticed that about twenty five percent of the drivers of other cars were looking at the trailer--I am so happy and would have paid much more for that work--happily. Does not end there, I was so happy with his service, I am having some yard signs made at 40 bucks each to put out when I do a decent sized job or reroofing job. Even better, I saw them making T-shirts I asked the guy how much, he did not say, well we could do you a few for x number of dollars, He proudly through it out there that I could get 50 done for 8 or 9 bucks each. You better believe that all of my good customers and me will soon be wearing a cool new T-shirt! This guy called when he said and when things did not go as planned, he called and said so--kept the relationship on an even keel.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
One way to say it is like this:
Treat people like you want to be treated._______________________________________________________________
To fly, we have to have resistance. -Maya Lin
I does seem to come back to you, doesn't it?Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
apparently those guys have plenty of work and dont need a little puny job like yours.
I know asphalt guys who wont take their equipment out of town unless its a huge job that they can camp out on.
maybe you can convince a neighbor to get his driveway done at the same time, you might get a volumn discount
around here there are guys with skidloaders,they get 3.00 a foot to tear out drives and haul off.2700.00 5" concrete = 15 yds x 100.00 a yard 1500.00 concrete guys form a driveway up in about a hour and ready to pour,most all the guys would love to make 2.00 a foot to finish,most get a buck a foot to do garage floors slick finish. 1800 labor 6000 total,thats my bid but i charge 2.00 a mile to travel!!!! larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Am I nuts? Tell me this isn't normal!
Dunno, I'm not entirely sure I'm not nuts--so I could be abad judge of such things.
Ok, 900s.f. 6" thick is 450 c.f. is, 16.6 cubic yards--call it 17 yards. That's two truck loads of ready-mix. Here in my town, that's about $1200 in 3000psi concrete from the ready-mix place. But, that's not including form labor, rebar, and finishing.
Oh, and that's not including the permitting the City requires (and the pre-pour inspection).
Using the concrete subs I know, I'd guess that it'd be $5-6000 here--but, this is not NJ, either.
Oops, forgot that it's probably another $1-2000 in dump/disposal fees for the tear-out--that would get "us" close to the numbers you are seeing.
I figured $1200 concrete, $1200 labor and the rest misc, no more than $3500 total and thats a very high price..It doesn't matter who he is, just so long as he says something "we" like. RJW 1/07
He's in Wilimington Delaware. Your price is a lot better than he could get there.
what do you consider standard thickness for a driveway? 5" or 6" ... what about a dumpster pad? most that i've torn up that weren't bad just needed to be removed seemed more like 4"...? what about patios with nothing but foot traffic?
thanks
p
would 1200 labor be for tear out and laying new stuff? boston is a long ways from medeeco! larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Go rent a skidster and get container delivered to your house. Jump on the machine and have some fun for a week end adventure. Then go to your local employment agency and pick up a couple of guys 4 or 5. Hows your spanish? Order up about 12 to 15 yards of redimix. go rent a power screed bull float. Any you get the picture. Then you can start crunching numbers.
Agree with Omah. Rent the equipment and the laborers. How badly can you mess up a driveway? It's not load bearing or electrical or sweating copper pipes. Impress the neighbors with you heavy equipment skills. heck, see if anyone else in the hood needs a little yard work, or wants to share the cost of the dumpster to clean out the back yard, etc.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
For $17/sq.ft. I'd do pavers for you, including the tear-out!
Bear
I'm guessing from your post the lack of reliability is what your questioning, not the price. I've been telling guys on this board to move to New Jersey, they would have tons of work. I recently called 6 plumbers and got one to call me back. I started to tell him what I needed and he stopped me, saying he was semi retired and didn't want a job that big. Fair enough, didn't waste my time. It's the guys who say they'll see you around noon and than never show, no call. That's just rude. GOOD LUCK
Thanks to all who have replied, you guy's get me motivated.
I think it was dockelly who said:
I'm guessing from your post the lack of reliability is what your questioning, not the price.
That about sums it up for me. I don't mind paying a decent price for a decent job. No one should have to work for free, I certainly don't. I also can't see paying double the going rate either. ( maybe that guy isn't nuts).
The best I can tell is this should run +/- $9000 in my area, $10 a square foot should be profitable for a decent concrete guy.
I would prefer to pay this job done and give my body the respect it deserves but it's not looking to good.
I'm busy as he!! through the end of next week, If I don't get any credible estimates by then I'll start looking into the dumpster / bob cat option.
I do have one buddy who has concrete and heavy equipment experience, and he's usually up for some side work. we have traded labor in the past, maybe I'll give him a call.
Thanks to all!!
I'll update when I know which direction this thing goes.
Bill
give my body the respect it deserves
Back in "the day" many of us would have attacked it with a jack hammer and then toiled over the fresh concrete. Now with more age and sense, we rent equipment and people. Your body would enjoy sitting in a bobcat seat pushing levers.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You will save as much as 50% as that last bid, that's almost $7000, Plus the education,... Priceless!.
Just as an FYI I use the price of concrete installation for De-installation too (excluding disposal costs). So if it's $5 a sq ft to install (includes concrete) then it's $5 a sq ft to tear out the old. Then add maybe $500 or $750 for haul away and dump fees. So, that would end up being around $9750. I have no idea of how much concrete work costs in Delaware, and my numbers are a guestamate of what a HO might expect to pay.
I have a great concrete guy who does my work for $275 a sq ft. - turn key - new construction - 4" thick concrete. I am very pleased.
As far as how much the concrete costs, how much labor costs, how much dump fees are, etc, etc, etc, none of that is relevant to you.
Regarding installing it yourself, Yea, my neighbor did that. First time he had 2 labors lined up from work and 3 friends that were supposed to come over and help with the pour. 1 labor and 1 friend showed up. A second friend showed up about 2 hrs late. The pour got away from them. He ended up jacking out about 1/2 of it. It was about the same size as your driveway or a little bigger. Luckily, he worked for a commercial construction company and could borrow a dump truck, bob cat, and jack hammer to get rid of the bad stuff.
Second time he hired a labor only concrete finishing crew.
Think he saved any money in the end? I doubt it.
As far as the guy who came out the next day and left an estimate, I'm not sure I see anything wrong with that. It's just a driveway.... if you have any questions just call him up. He is probably just trying to make efficient use of the time he gave you already doing a "free estimate". I'll bet if you had been there it would have taken 2 or 3 times as long... So, then he could only do 10 estimates in a day rather than 20. There are a lot of HOs who do a lot of estimate shopping, and more tire kickers to go with them. BTW - how much free work do you do from someone who you don't know from Adam?
If you want personalized before the sale service, I'll bet the $17 a sq ft guy has plants in his office waiting room. :-)
$275 a sq ft. - is that price right. that would be $687,500 for a 2500 sq ft house. 30 yards..It doesn't matter who he is, just so long as he says something "we" like. RJW 1/07
He is talking about $2.75 per SF. A turnkey price I can get here in TX for flatwork.
$275.00 per SF is what we charge the customers. : - )
Yea... what's one little decimal point? Don't you wish I were filling out your pay check? :-)
i almost went broke a few times giving free estimates, I always showed up when i said i would but could talk for 3 hours trying to sell myself only to here there getting 8 bids or milking me for info to do it themselfs.This is time im not working or watching my guys or working on my own house or being away from myfamily, I only wished i left more estimates in screen doors If i was too high they tagged me as the high guy, Some people cant get any estimates because they are known to shop it to death or slow payers, , If a company is busy with good payers why go after unknowns. Its a fine lineto know who and how much time to spend, Just saying...
And... There was a discussion or 2 here about how to prequalify customers, over the phone or whatever...
Maybe part of what the OP's problem is that he, for some reason is not passing whatever prequalification these contractors are applying? Maybe it is as simple as these concrete guys don't like doing tear-outs; it's not a fun thing.
Nobody owes a potential customer a free estimate but it seems like these guys would have the courtesy to just say "I'm too busy" though.
Further, the fact is that as a GC (representative) and a regular employer of subs it is still sometimes hard for me to get even my regular subs to give me a price on something. It's as easy as this:
Choose one:
A. Perform work for free.
B. Perform work and get paid for it.
Duhhhh.
When compiling building budgets for entire houses, it can be a real bear.
You are right, I still believe that there are few people out there to do repair type work, as compared to new work. The HOs do not know these people though. If you do tear out and repair work, the proper way to bid this is at a price that you know you can live with. I understand that the screen door leaver did show up, no one was home? and did leave a quick quote to show that he was interested. That sounds like a guy who might show up to do a job. Why would he not be called back, since he has seen the job area and asked about what the HO did want to ask about.
This three bid stuff sucks, it is extremely difficult to get the so called recommended three bids for every job. That means a HO is wasting a few small businessmens time and then wondering why they all are a bit high--because somebody has to pay for all of those free estimates. What do you think?Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
handymanvan,
that's a good point----it reminds me of the times i show up exactly at MY appointed time----and someone elses company truck is parked in the propects driveway---making their pitch--during MY appointment.
either the prospect
1) doesn't respect us--and has treated BOTH of us rudely by scheduling multiple estimates in the same time frame0or
2) the other contractor has treated the prospect AND Me rudely--- by missing HIS time--.
either way--the prospect better apologise---- or explain the situation---or I have no other choice than to down grade their rank. I simply choose not to compete in that type of enviornment.
best wishes, Stephen
Matt,
I believe you are correct----almost certainley the O.P. is saying something over the phone to cause this------- he just doesn't realize it.
20 years ago or so when I was starting out---------EVERY potential job was important to me--and I treated everybody the same---'cause I needed EVERY possible job.
but I have since learned to " grade" prospects over the phone-----If i spend 4-5 minutes talking to people on the phone---------it's suprising how many people will eventually tell you, in effect," don't take me seriously as a prospective customer--I am going to waste your time--and if you do give me any attention at all-make it perfunctory"
I track everything now--------- here are the last 6 calls I have recieved this week for estimates--------
1) a call from a condo association. This is an existing customer with approx. 20 LARGE roofs---at present I have re-roofed ,I believe 17--with 3 more to go over the next 2 years---without a doubt-------- this single customer put my 2 sons through 13 years of private school----------- when they call---they skyrocket to the top of the list
2)A prospective customer---with a century barn. I have never worked for this customer--but they run a horse rescue operation, they are raising funds for the project, I checked out their web site and I am really interested in the whole concept. Probably I won't get the project--but I am highly interested in it---and if I do get it it will be a lot of work----- they go right near the top of the list
3)Some body in an adjacent county who read a couple of my magazine articles--who called. They are to a certain extent-pre-sold on the basis of the articles--------- they go right up near the top of the list
4) a previous customer--- I have done several nice little carpentry projects for her in the last year or so.-she has a leak in her roof now--that needs repairing---and we are also talking about a complete replacement of the roof early in the spring.-- This customer ,of course shoots right up to the top of my priorities------- the repair MUST be done-( in fact I did it yesterday at 3:00)
5)A prospect who called me--------- his first question is" do you give free estimates"------------I immediately start looking for an exit from this conversation.- for the record-my estimate would be done for " free"----but if this is the prospects first question-----it tells me a lot.Then he asks me WHERE I am located-i tell him------ he tells me where the project house is( it's in a neighboring suburb)--he asks how far away MY town is from the one where his house is located---- the fact that he doesn't know the answer to THIs himself---tells me a lot---and gives me my exit.-------" is this your personal residence sir?" I ask-------" well ,um, err, uhhh--no it's a house I own"------------ " Oh-sorry sir-we wouldn't be able to help you with that-we are really set up and insured to work on owner occupied real estate---but good luck with your project"
6) Call comes yesterday morning while I am working on current a customers loooong project. New call is chimney re-flashing project--historically my "bread and butter"-- of course I am interested-and of course I call him back as soon as I recieve the message.---but at the same time I am thinking( how would I even fit this in--it's gonna need to be done soon---and all work days with decent weather need to be committed to the loooong project untill it's finished.- by the time I return his call( same day)---he tells me he has already lined someone else up to do the work( fine I think-that actually solves a scheduling problem for me)-- but then he asks me for a price over the phone-------------- I decline-and wish him good luck with his project.
privately--I suspect his honesty---if he as already lined somone else up-great---but what does MY price have to do with ANYTHING at this point?-If he likes MY price better--is he gonna weasel out of his deal with the existing contractor--and would I want to be involved with someone who would do that????---and since I DO NOT give a price sight unseen----I am not driving out anywhere to give a price to someone who has already lined up someone else to do the actual project----------"what's in it for me?"
clearly -prospects one through four- I am going to do back flips to accomodate them.
" prospects" 5,6--pretty much TOLD me not to take them seriously.--6 i was never going to allow myself to get involved with.
"5"-------if i was much less busy-I would have invested more time into. I would have tried to find out if he was new to the area?--did, perhaps a new co-worker give him my name?--- but since he obviously didn't live in the house in question----- I STILL wasn't gonna be interested in it.
I suspect the O.P. in this thread is maybe being winnowed out by somebody elses similar process.
In my case--#s 5,6 may easily be folks compaining that contractors won't return calls-or contractors don't show up, or contractors miss appointments--never realizing that it is #5 's behavior that generates that result-----------
best wishes all, stephen
Edited 1/19/2007 8:50 am ET by Hazlett
Stephen:
I'd say that is a great post and really goes to the heart of the matter of the OP's Q.
I'm sure other contractors who sell their services to HOs and HOs will read it and learn.
What alot of people dont relise is the cost of living of the area. Like that show flipping houses, They buy a junk house for $500k and flip it for $650k. Here that house is 30k. a 500K house is an brand new six bedroom 7000 sq feet on 40 acres.if everybody make high wages in town then cost of service is high. that same job here for $3000 is still making 40 % profit. 90% of all here in town make less than $15 a hour, and that still get you a brand new house, brand new truck feeding a family of 4.It doesn't matter who he is, just so long as he says something "we" like. RJW 1/07
around here it is not normal
unless YOU have an attitude
otherwise, you must be in a city , that things are so booming, that people dont need to get back to you
not around here, I work with one of the best concret flats in the area, adn he is only a about two months out, and he will look at a job within a week, for a homeowner
a bit shortre for me :)