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How do you cut a handrail easing?
I’ve noticed that there seems to be several different ways of cutting a handrail easing these days.When I was an apprentice in the late sixties, several older carpenters I worked with all taught me the same way to do this technique.So I was wondering if anyone would like to show me their way or compare other techniques?
Larry
Prescriptive codes don't address the connection at less common angles, so base the connection off more typical ones using bolts, structural screws, blocking, and steel tension ties.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
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I am hoping that, as with most of the postings and discussions on FHB's Breaktime, I will be learning a considerable amount from all the great people who contribute to it. Please stay on track, do not digress, do not change the subject. Please make it easy and comfortable for people who want to follow these discussions- don't make it so they have to wade through a bunch of crap! I'm here to share and to learn, and that should be the spirit and intention here. My sincere thanks to everyone! - Ken
*I'm all ears! Thanks - Ken Hill
*ken... why did you just digress?
*Why am I reminded of all those infomercials where the guy standing up front waves around the plastic gizmo, and certain people out in the audience all shout out how great it looks, and what a great job it must do, carving a flower in the breast of a turkey....
*Fitting the easings is more or less an eyeball thing with me.Be careful, you only get one cut and a tweek.There is usually enough of a leading edge on the easings to make a 90 with the rail. There is no real "trick" to it as far as I can tell.Ed.
*Wow! !! We might be finally getting some where? ??Larry
*Don't want to get greedy now"LOL", but I really would like to add one more word or sentence to this discussion. How do you find tangent points or mark ? ?? Larry
*Careful Larry.I think that when you start talking about your methods using your tools, it becomes an advertisement again.Hey, I have an idea, how about you write up an article about your tools, and your methods, and see if Taunton would be interested in buying the article for the magazine. Or, just make up a real advertisement and pay to have it run in the magazine.Either way, if I'm not mistaken, even if you pay for advertising in the mag, that doesn't mean you can advertise here.
*Luka I really do appreciate your advice. Even if I wanted to advertise, I do not have the money. I know a lot of people think if you have a patent that this mean your wealthy. I can ashore you that is not the case. I believe that this discussion can happen without me spamming.But it's very very important not to get off track.Larry
*Larry: The method I use is to cut a pitch block. This is a right triangle with one side equal to the rise of the stairs, the other side equal to the run. The easing is held on a flat surface with this pitch block held so its hypotenuse is touching the underside of the easing. This is the tangent point of the easing. This point is then marked. The triangle is flipped over creating a perpendicular line to the tangent point. A line is then drawn along side the easing. This cut line will be exactly perpendicular to the inclination angle of the rail. This means that a square cut on the straight rail will work.
*Come on guys its an easy question. Why elude to some deep seated underlying meaning. I'll answer it....I cut a stair easing with a saw.
*stan... i do the same thing.. only i pick my pitch block up off the floor where it fell when i cut out my stringers.....hah, hah, hah...that is unless someone threw them away...
*Geoff: What was I thinking? ha
*Mike: Good idea, same triangle!
*Ever notice how there will be a question here and then in a few months there will be an article in FHB by someone claming to be an expert on the subject?I've seen it happen before.At least with what Taunton pays, nobody's getting rich off us.But I digress.........You don't learn to build stairs (any part thereof) by reading. You learn by doing.Stan "The Man" builds them full time and depends on mathmatics. I build them when asked and depend on a more conventional approach. That's because I don't understand the mathmatics at all.In spite of our methods, we both get the job done beautifully, and probably in the same amount of time.That's all that counts. How you reach the final outcome can be achieved going down many various roads. Which road a person chooses is a personal thing best understood by the traveler.To use a phrase...."One man's meat is another man's poison". Methodology is only as good as the man using it.Ed.
*Edward, I do agree with most of what you are saying. Also just think if you understood the mathematics and it was in a more simplier form that would not require the use of a pitch block,unless the stair is properly set a pitch block is not accurate anyway. Larry
*Ed: I totally agree with you. Your way, Larrys way, my way, and probably dozens of others who are reading, all have their ways, to achieve the same results. We all are comfortable with "our" way. A pitch block is very accurate, Larrys tool looks like a very accurate method. Bottom line, no matter how the fittings are cut, there are two tests. Are the fittings level, and is the handrail exactly parallel with the stair stringer. The handrail can be eyeballed very quicky, and the fitting is checked with a level just as quick.
*I have a drawing out of a book showing a pitch block being used that a saw as support for cutting the easing.Would this picture be allowed? There are several other method then the one using a pitch block and the one I use. I'm going to try and take a picture of this technique post it in the next few can days. One other method is using only a framing square and 4 foot level on the rake of a stair with the easing on the newels level and then crossing the framing square through the tangent point of the easing and mark. This was the method I used for years. I've never used a pitch block, I also know unless the stair is properly set a pitch block IS NOT ACCURATE. Larry
*Larry: I cut my pitch block to the angle that the stairs is built to, making this as accurate as one can place a mark. For example: If I build a stairs that has a rise of 7.53 inches and a run of 10.32 inches, then that is what I build the stairs to. A pitch block then cut to this will work perfect.Now lets say I was called over to do a railing on a stairs someone else built. I then would take a straight edge and place it on the nosing, and find the inclination angle of the stairs with a bevel gage and a level. This bevel gage would then cut out a pitch block that would work perfect.
*What the hell is a "pitch block"?Ed.
*Ed: It is a right triangle cut with one side adjacent to the 90 degee angle cut to the height of the rise. The other adjacent side is cut to the run of the stairs. When this triangle is slid under and easing, the hypotenuse of this triangle contacts the easing where it should be marked. When this triangle is flipped over in the correct fashion, one of the sides will draw an absolute perpendicular cut mark to the rail pitch angle. If this pitch block is cut to the inclination of the stairs, it marks the cutline perfectly, and very quickly. Cost $0.00 There are many ways to make these cuts, this is just one more way. I have cut them for years without pitch blocks, and could do just fine cutting them several other ways. I always like seeing different methods.Larry: I do like your tool. That was some good thinking on your part.
*GACC Dallas, In this picture is pitch block being use at the miter saw. I really would like your opinion and others on the safety of illustration ?Larry
*ed. u no all the little triangles that u have on the floor after you cut an open stair stringer ?... each one of those little triangles are "pitch blocks".. pick up the most accurate one.. and mark it up for a "pitch block"
*Mike, What if you are not the one who built the stair ? Most stairs today are built in a shop and the handrail is installed at a completely different point in time. One other point, no two carpenters will ever set the stairs the same way.Larry
*if you didn't build the stair, you can still make a pitch block just as if you were cutting out an open stringer....Rise... Run...= pitch block
*Mike, I agree with you, but we are also taking more time then necessary.I believe that this is what different techniques is all about " time".If we are self employeed, time is someone money?I would like to offer a opinion here.If you are only doing two to three handrail installation a year a pitch block would work just find. Larry
*Here is another drawing about a method of handrail insulation that I would like to discuss.Larry
*Just curious. I thought you left? Give your head a shake.
*Orlo,I get the feeling here that somethings up with your questions.The mitre-saw application looks fine to me. If it scares you to do that, then I wouldn't do that if I were you.What's going on here?Putting together a handrail is pretty simple stuff.You cut the pieces, put in the rail bolts and get on with it.Ed.
*Ed: You have to understand Larry. His methods work nice, but he doesnt realize that Ed, Stan, Armin, etc, etc, etc, also have nice ways also. I enjoy reading other peoples methods. I have adjusted my own ways over the years by what works best for me. Ed, I like what you said "You cut the pieces, put in the rail bolts and get on with it" . Its not rocket science.
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*Hi! Joe, I do agree with you.Larry
*Joe, A stair with a landing has multiple degrees, angles and tangents happening with the two stairs at one point. The relationship of these two stairs together and how far over or back of center line is second the stair. To far over center the landing newel will be higher and the rail drop will be longer. To far back of center the newel will be shorter and so will the rail drop this is also based on the riser of the first stair being flush with the string of the second stair. For example if the riser of the first stair is away from the landing this will make the rail drop shorter. This is something you probably will never see. There is a point with in the square that is known as a newel point.This is where the center line of each stair intercept or come together.This point determines how the rail,newel height and easing tangents or points will relate to the stair rail system and is always the starting point. Larry
*Joe, Maybe these two drawings can help someone understand the mathematics in a rail system using one point and two marks, and how this might eliminate the unnecessary use of tools and time.There is a point within the landing square that is known as a newel point.This is where the center line of each stair intercepts or comes together. This point determines how the rail, newel height and easing tangents or points will relate to the stair rail system and is always the starting point. On the landing newel post there are two marks known as mark 1 and mark 2. The first mark establishes the newel and the second mark establishes the rail drop. When we use the word mark, this means there is one more step to find the point or where to measure from. Larry
*Joe, Maybe it would be helpful if I tried to explain what I looked for and do in finding the newelpoint.Step 1. HOW I FIND A CENTER LINE The first thing I need to know is what type of material I will be working with and how thick the newel and balusters are at the bottom. A typical newel is 3 inches. The second thing I need to know about open stairs, is if there is a landing. Also, is there an adjacent wall on the other side of the stair that the rail might end into. If this is the case find the center line of this wall first. On the stair, place a mark for the center line. This will tell me how much playing room I might have on the open side of the landing. Starting at the landing with the landing tread set, I place a 1 1/2inch line on both the upper and lower stair tread from the top outside edge of the risers. Then make the two lines intercept at a point, this is called the NEWELPOINT. I use another term for this, but for this discussion we will use this word. Now I can see how the newel relates to the riser. For example, if the measurement is 1 1/2 inches away from the riser; then the newel will sit flush against the riser. If the measurement is 1 3/4 inches away from the riser; then the newel will sit 1/4 inch from the riser. Knowing how much play I have to work with from the adjacent wall adjust the newelpoint if I can. If I decided to make the center lines different than the typical 1 1/2 inch, it is VERY important to then place a mark on each tread with the new center lines. I can assure you that there will come a time when you forget to do this and you will place the newel on one center line and the balusters on another. Normally you will only make this mistake one time. This is the stair center line for all newels and balusters. In the drawing is a stairway with a landing. If the newel did not hit where I wanted it to,I might decide to move the center line to the right or left depending on how this would affect cutting newel.Larry
*Orlo, I cut 'em with a pitch block clamped to the miter box fence, sometimes. LJ Smith or Coffman sells a plastic cradle with degrees or rise/run(I can't remember, mine walked off) that was amaz,ingly easy to use. Like a bunch of folks have mentioned, we all cut them with whatever we have at hand, drill, bolt, & fair 'em up. Personally, I always set my newels first & fit the handrail to them , unless it's curved, & then I'm calling Stan. No big deal, straight rails have square ends, landing and winder easings get cut off that...You have a picture in your site with an easing in a miter box ready to be cut, you better talk to Blus about that P**P***L*** stuff.
*Billy, Because you are maybe a few other know how with your method to install railing. Your assuming that every one reading this has their own different method. If we are not going to share techniques then why have this area under this forum? ?? For the picture on my web site about cutting a easy being dangers. I can ashore you that the illustration I posted under this heading is far far more dangers then the picture! !! You also show me by not commenting on this your level of experience cutting easing.You obviously must think I've never cut one before.Just to give you a little idea about approximately how many I cut in a year. Normally this will be around 2500 easing alone. I can ashore you that I've cut then every way possible, including your. Larry
*Wow. Assuming you take two weeks off per year, and work 5 days a week every week that is ten easings a day. You actualy have enough steady business to do that many a day ? And you get ten done in a day ? Plus all the rest of the work involved in just 10 stair railings ? Every day, day in, and day out ?
*Luka, My mistake, I use approximately 10000 clips a year. Four clip per joint equals 2500. Total jointsLarry
*......... and at least a staircase a day fixed.Why doesn't he enter politics? -- he obviously has one of the major talents necessary.
*I build 12 to 15 curved stairs a year. Lets see---each stairway averages two easings---I do about 24 to 30 easings a year.I hope nobody thinks I am stretching my story.
*Luka, This rail system is a day and one half work for me with and 27 joints in itLarry
*Two of the last 14 years I worked as a salesmen and rep for a stair company .The other 12 years I was self employed, specialized in handrail installation. I'm now contracted by five different stair companies and several trim carpenter contractor to install handrail and I have no callbacks for repairs.Larry
*So you really only have to do 93 stairs just like the one in the picture, per year. That's still quite impressive.
*And can't spell to save his ass. Weird?
*Orlo- What's that blanked out area at the top of your last picture?
*Maybe this will help keep the discussion going in the right direction. Step 2.HOW I LAYOUT FOR A STARTING NEWEL I place a framing square against the riser using the 2 inch side of the square until it reaches 4 3/4 inches at the center line on the square. Then,I place a long mark on the outside 1 1/2 inch portion of the square edge. Then slide the square a little more to the left and mark the 2 inch inside portion of the square edge to create a 90 degree mark. Next, placing the newel on this 90 degree mark, mark all sides around the newel. This is where my starting newel will be set. Now,I draw a line through the center of the square running opposite the direction that the rail system will run. Then, come in 5/8 inch from each side of the square and drill a 1/4 inch hole and place a rail bolt in each hole. This method works well for two reasons: Using the degrees chart the starting newel will always be the same height, and the balusters will not be to close to the edge of the bullnose radius. Like some of the other poster mention there are several way of doing something, and my way might not be right for you. But when you do something day to day and your making a living at it, you'll find all the easier,better ways to become more productive with your time.Larry
*This is the chart I use for a starting newel.
*Ken, The blanked out area at the top of the one picture, is a word that could be considered spamming.Larry
*Orlo, you are spelling well these last two days. Have you decide to drop that routine from your act?
*Gunner, If I do, will you stop giving me a hard time?Larry
*Maybe.
*Ok Gunner, you win!Larry
*Now jump up and say. "It's a miracle i'm cured!!"And give your head a shake.
*Orlo,I think you're full of sheet.Excuse my spelling.Ed.
*Ed: You use railbolts also I see. I still havent found a stronger way to attach fittings, have you? I do place two dowels across the joint on high stressed fittings. Normally though, just the railbolt will do. The dowels are placed on curved handrails where there is more sideways and torsional stress.
*If the customer is willing to pay for it I also use railbolts If not I use a clip gun and only three time over 7 years have had a problem . That is approximately 17500 joint. Larry
*I don't give the customer the option---just the strongest joint
*Stan,Good joint! Er, I mean, good point!
*Ken: Hello. Hows that 7000 ft. roof coming?
*Larry,I know a couple of installers who use that system and swear by the results. I've used them also on occasion with good results too. They are an excellent alternative to rail bolts.
*Stan,Rail bolts - That's the only way in my opinion.I wouldn't use a corrigated fastener on a rail if you held a gun to my head.Nothing holds better than a properly installed rail bolt on a small (standard to code) size rail. Like something simple like a Coffman or something.For larger rails (which go in after CO) I like dowels and white glue.Ed.
*I use rail bolts, too, and like Stan, epoxied dowels where the rail will take a lot of shaking. I've never seen a clip gun, but went to an LJ Smith conference once, and they had a little saw similar to a biscuit jointer which cut slots for H shaped fasteners which were pounded in. I asked where I could get a saw, and the rep told me OSHA outlawed them...Orlo, I did comment. I said I cut easings with a pitch block clamped to the fence, sometimes, comprende? It's one of the safer ways I've found. Am I sharing?So, does that day and a half for that rail system you show, include setting the newels, and boring for and setting the pickets? Let's see if he really answeres this...Banister Billy
*I've seen failed bolt joints, but not a failed clip joint. I was actually interested in what Larry thought of the clip nailer. I think if nothing else it would be an alternative for Stan in place of the thru dowels, it would serve the same purpose right? But I was most interested in the speed. The pre-made fittings are joined with clips, but longer ones, and they seem to hold fine. Larry uses two under the grab mould in addition to the two bottom ones and I don't see how that is a bad joint. Larry? the few that you saw fail, how did they fail? I guess the clips wouldn't work in a softwood rail, but I don't have a call for that. I guess I was most interested in the gun. The only one I know is the Senco SC1, and the clips only come up to 9/16" long, (I think, somewhere about that length). So my questions would be are there other guns? Do you have any trouble with splitting? Any trouble with the clips setting? Will it upset anyones sensibilities if I spring the gawd awful $400+ for the gun and clip my fittings? Oh ya, if you want to break Larry's cookies ask him why he doesn't bring the newel base thru the skirt and drop cap it, I hate them sitting on the treads. Oh ya, watch your fingers when you cut those drop caps buddy, I wish somebody would invent a tool for that. ;-)
*Heres my shop made jig for boring dowels and railbolts across the joint. Notice jig A has a 3/8 inch railbolt hole for the machine thread end, and jig N has a 3/16 inch hole for drilling the pilot hole for the lagscrew end of a 3/8 inch railbolt.This is definately a slower method, but I dont know of a stronger way. When I find one I will use it.
*I take a 4 inch chunk of rail and layout the dowels and railbolt holes. A drill press is used to drill clear through the 4 inch rail block. Then, I cut it in half. On one side of the cutline is jig A, the other side is jig B. Jig A is used on one side of the joint, and jig B on the other side. This method automatically corrects for any drilling errors, either layout or drill runout. If say the dowels are drilled 1 degree out of true, doesnt matter. The other jig mirrors this error and drills the hole so that the dowel is lined up across the joint.
*This is one of the igs shown ready to drill to an easing. The screws are not screwed in.
*Bucksnort: I never thought of using epoxy on the dowels. I think you have helped me find a stronger method. Thanks!
*Billy, Yes, that is complete from start to finish and in that case the rail was refinish. I also had to made several of fittings out of tangent caps and easings.I would like to take a little time to answer in my opinion some of the comments made and especially about railbolts.Larry
*Joe,ThanksEd,StanI will be the first one to agree with you about railbolts being better and stronger. I also will tell you that a person will do 15 different thing to use a railbolt and depending on how skills he is this technique will take at least 10 minutes. The rail system in the picture have 27 joints on the main stair alone. With a clip gun this technique is 15 seconds per joints.If you are averaging $83.00 hour when working with your tools. On this one job I save approximately 4.5 hours, you can do the rest of the math. I always give the customer the option. But I never give my time away FREE to anyone when it come to working or contracting.Qtrmeg The only reason these three joints failed, was because carpetman tried to beend the carpet around the volute. (Oh ya, if you want to break Larry's cookies ask him why he doesn't bring the newel base thru the skirt and drop cap it, I hate them sitting on the treads) I have done this hundreds times. But again, if the customer is not willing to pay for it I'm not doing it free.(Oh ya, watch your fingers when you cut those drop caps buddy, I wish somebody would invent a tool for that. ;-) I In my opinion this is the most dangerous thing in rail work. I ones new a old carpenter who would but his fingers within 1/4 inch of a table saw blade and he steel had all 10 fingers when he died.Larry
*Larry I have one custom stair company that I install for and because the homes are normally$750,000 add, I use railbolts.But I have used clips on homes over two million and the customer was very happy with the job. Let me also say that my method of installation has nothing to do with whether you use a railbolt or clip gun. It only had to do with the mathematics of the system and understanding what going to happen if I move center line as much as 5/8 of inch and what can happen to the placement of the newel. If you are doing rail insulation for a hobby or looking for perfection, then you probably shouldn't take much time reading anything I write Like everyone who worked with his tools, I want to do a quality job and I also want to get pay for it. In my opinion in carpentry perfection is something that need to be pay for, but you do no has to agree with me.Larry
*Larry: I agree on cutting those newel drops with a miter box. It gives me the willies. I set the table saw on the bevel I want, and use push blocks to cut them out.There is no doubt you could probable do ten clipped joints to one rail bolted. I dont do but 12-15 railing jobs a year, so I spend a very small percentage of my time putting railbolts in, probably less than .25%
*I will admit I had a joint break onetime. I had a curved stairway installed with just the railing on with no balusters. There was a temporary prop half way down the stairs to keep the handrail from sagging. An electrician slipped on the stairs and grabbed for dear life. My joint popped. I did not have any dowels in this joint, but even if I had, as big of a guy this was and how hard he grabbed the rail, I think he would have popped it anyway. It was a real quick fix. Just popped out the plug, loosened the bolt a little, worked some more glue back in the joint, and tightened the bolt.
*Stan The best way I have found to a newel drop cap is placing it between two pieces of three quarter board top and bottom. Then tack both sides into the cap that you want to save. Mark the area on the three quarter then cut it in a table saw or mtre box prefer to use a table saw. Today I use a high speed grinder with a coarse 50 grit sanding disc. Larry
*Sounds like a winner! I will remember that. I started to cut one once in a miter box, and said nahhhhhhhhh. forget it.
*Its refreshing to see a craftsman will sacrifice quality for the almighty dollar. Orlo you are my hero but I still won't do hack work. If the customer won't pay for what I think is correct they need another contractor.BTW the pic you posted should be the poster child picture for "I should have bought a circular stair but no one could figure it out" They'd have had a better looking job with an exterior fire escape.
*Geoff: I run across stairs all the time where they have two 45 degree bends in them. I tell them right off that I can build a curved stairway for the same money in my shop, than I could messing around on site getting all the landings etc right. Not too long ago I replaced a stairway in a two year old house. It had two 45 degree landings. I slipped a curved stairway in its place.
*I glue and pin them to a block of 3/4, or whatever, trim the block close to the cap and cut on a miter saw. Still ten...
*Geoff B - If you give the customer the two options, he will always pick the one that pay less. If you made them aware of the different in quality, then in my opinion this is not hack work. You are only perform the necessary quality expected and payed for.Being able to offer and perform the two different skills levels is a benefit for you.Larry
*Billy,Don't believe every thing a rep tells you, because I know several installer that use that system for attaching a joint (cut slots). Also I know of several stair companys that made parts,that use a clip gun to attach easings. Larry
*Yes I know the old cheapist price whine...Telling a customer you would install a cheaper,less durable handrail is opening yourself for all sorts of legal problems. If you believe in the splines then use it..But if you think the bolts are better and don't use them, its hack work.I will NEVER reduce the quality of my work to make more money or sacrifice safety. A customer may not be able to afford my work but the way I see it, I can't afford a litigation attorney. If there is a failure the 2 choice information will be used against you. "Yes your Honor if they'd have paid an extra $200.00 little Jimmy wouldn't be drooling in the wheelchair."NOT A RISK I'M WILLING TO TAKE!!!
*Stan, now I only owe you a bazillion minus one tips...
*Orlo, if you set those newels and bored and set the balusters and did that rail in a day and a half, my hat (damn, all of of my hats) are off to you. I don't know what a refinish rail is. I'm guessing you replaced the hand railing? And the newels were already set, and the balster were already cut and fastened to the the treads. Can you help me here? Just trying to take a different tack...Billy Baluster
*What's a newel drop? Stan, got a pic? I figure I need to know what I should be scared of...
*If we are talking about the lag bolt and ramp attachment for newels, I don't even offer that as an option, right on, Geoff...non-litiguous, bb
*Billy,No, nothing was recut, no newels,balusters, fitting or rail. Refinish only mean that the finish lackor was on the parts.If you go back and look at the picture you will also see that I had to install special oal under the newels and balusters. This is so the carpet can run down center of the stair. if you look at the picture of my work bench you will see the parts for this job.Larry
*Geoff B I've been using one for seven years , if there are so dangerous to little Jimmy why doesn't OSHA outlawed them ? ?? Why would Toll Brother allow me to install over eight hundred home in four states and also allow other installer to use them? ??Larry
*Bucksnort: The newel drop is the upside down pyramid cut cap on this newel posted. There is also one on the half newel I used on the wall.
*Bucksnort: If you look close, you can see one on the bottom of the top hickory newel.
*Dollars.Same reasoning for the ford pinto bomb.
*I hope you all are getting payed will for that level of perfection ! !! I wonder if your banker cares ? ??Luka I wonder if ford cares that you loss money ? ??
*Larry: I would be out of business QUICK if I didnt provide quality details. People do pay for it. I cant run rail fast enough to make a living at it. I have to build the stairs under it also.
*Stan,Then why are all the perfections putting down the way anyones or some ones way of making a living.Is it because you think your skills of spelling or building a stair is superior over other ? ?? Are maybe it's because you can afford a stair shop and work independent.Some people can't afford that luckily and level of perfection.I have one more thing to say to several of people posting.It is very obvious to me , that your folower not leaders and you don't have the abilities to think on your own! !!Larry
*Bawahaaaa!!! Orlo you moron do you know what O.S.H.A. stands for. I didn't say you hired little Jimmy. Get a life or better yet get a job I hear Rylands hiring... Do you speak spanish cause english has got you beat?
*Larry: You have a problem. When have I once said a thing about your spelling? I dont like the way your way is the only way. I could not even come close to running the amount of railing you do, I dont know how you do it. But I will guarantee that using YOUR figures of $83.00 and hour, you could afford a shop to make all your railing. I have made my own way, by giving as much quality as practical. I would like to even provide a higher level of quality like Armin does. I do not have the clientel for that. I do have customers that will pay for railibolts, newel drops etc. Thank-you
*Stan, I never said my way was the only way, just like I never said I was stair builder.But tell me when I ever put down anyone way of doing something. I might have pointed out that something might not be practical. The only people putting other people down are the perfection and they folower or want a be. Like I said earlier, half the people on here can't think for them self and never will.Larry
*Larry: You were mocking me over on JLC about my calculator. You kept jumping in like a jerk. We obviously dont respect each other, so lets cool it.
*Stan,You seemed to think your way is the only way.Your right, I do not have any respect at all for you.
*We don't follow you Orlo. Or is that what bothers you?
*Orlo,You now say you're not a stair builder? What happened to 2500 easing joints a year? At 40 hrs a week and 52 weeks a year that's 2080 hrs available to work per year. So your making 1.201923 easing joints per hour, every hour, 40 hrs a week, 52 weeks a year? So when do you have time for skirts, risers and treads? I'm calling your hand.Now I can't believe a single word you say.Maybe you should peddle your stories somewhere else.You've been found out.If there is one thing I hate, it's a liar.Ed.
*now, ed.orlo may be many things but he never claimed to be anything other than a stair rail installer / boat dealer / tool inventor / and father to his kids... he also never claimed to be qualified for the diplomatic corps... y can't we yust get along ? hah, hah, hah
*ei yi yi.
*Larry: I am banning myself from ever responding to your bs again. Talk on!
*Mike,I smell fuzzy math.I guess he's gonna tell us he works about 75 hours a week.Yeah, that's the ticket!He's probably a one-eyed baker's helper from Nebraska.Ed.
*Stan,I think you said that before, maybe this time I really will get lucky ! !!Gunner, I just said you win, and not that I loss. Loser ! !!MikeWho is really the ass ? ??Ed, I have nothing to prove to you, but your sure proving my points about half the people on here are only follower and the more you speak the more every one know what you or all about. Maybe stan will give you a job some day and we also have two other word for some one like you " low class"Larry
*Larry,If you don't have any respect for Stan Foster, then you've got a i realproblem.Stan is one of the most respected contributors in these discussions here at Breaktimee. He's highly skilled at what he does and is a real gentleman. In addition, he does beautiful work, as you have seen. He has been very patient and helpful to others who have asked him for advice over the years. Then there's you Larry. Look at your last post. Gunner's a loser, Mike's an ass, and Ed's low class, according to you. Once again, these are all people that are well respected here. Your comments are out of line with others.If you would stop blowing your horn so loud, you might be able to hear what others are saying.
*orlo.... you've obviously got some personality clash with me...no matter what i write to you .. you take it the wrong way... too bad, amigo.. if you go back and read my last post to ed. you could no doubt tell me what you find objectionable.. or incorrect... if you think it's sarcastic.. it's not...or .. i could save my breath...
*LarryI suggest you take a look through the Gallery at some of the pictures that Stan has posted. Looking at your web-site I can find nothing that even begins to approach the quality of his work.The purpose of your threads seems to be nothing more than self-aggrandisement and overt advertising of a couple of tools showing new ways to draw pencil lines.I suggest that your achievements don't even begin to justify the arrogance that you are displaying when you criticise well-respected members of this forum.
*Ken,IanDGilham Why does it matter if I have no respect for Stan? That like trying to made me see thing your way or like Stan is the only way. If you all respect this man, I certainly don't care one way are the other. In my opinion, as far him being real gentleman or this skill level of perfection, I'm not impression.Like I said, wonder if this banker is impression.It cost someone a lot money to achieve that level perfection. Like I said earlier I'm not working with my tools for a hobby and I'm not trying to impression anyone especially Stan. I can ashore you by some of the personal emails that I receive that not everyone is impressed with is level of perfection, only the want a bees If you don't like my tools I certainly do not have a problem with that either, because the only thing that would probably happen is you would cut off your fingers.Mike, Maybe you miss understood me ?Larry
*What a bunch of hot air...2002...So it is....The winter of Orlo....I am Orlo...I am my own man...I follow no one.Please follow me....Who are you really...Michael Jackson?Give it a break...You will indeed need to find a knew net hang out as yaa are pissin off the best buddies yaa could have made hear laddy.near the eddie in the stream,aj
*Shed a tear for me Michael....Please...please stay and play with us...We will miss yaa if you leave!Too too near the stream...wiping my eyes I am,ajb LMAOSHTIFOOMGDCID!!!!figure that one out Luka! and for those of you that have the secret decoder ring...use the secret handshake to decode.
*Larry....In case you need to know...I am enjoying learning something about production methods used by huge production outfits like Toll...So thank you.As to what is right or wrong...I think your way is right for Toll and huge productions speeds...and Stan's is right for slower speed work that he and I and many of us do that post here.I do love to go fast though....As I have stated before...My record speed to install and trim a prehung door...with lockset installed is 5 minutes. High speed custom high priced highly desired work done by your crew while you internet manage from poolside in the Carribbean...or from Aspen....Now that's the ticket.near the e stream,aj
*Hi! aj I do appreciate what you have to say and your right. I would like you to know and understand that I'm not only about production work. It was until 1994 that I never worked on a production job site.Before that all my work was high in custom home builders. Larry
*Thanks AJ, I don't have enough that I don't know. Hmm, how about this>>>LMAOSHTIFOOMGDCID= laughing my ass off so hard that I fell off of my g d chair into droolOrlo, you always have the best threads, but lose the attitude.
*ED- I'm not a baker's helper but but my Dad's from Nebraska and both he and I are one-eyed (weird twist of fate, NOT hereditary), watch who you're callin' what, pal! LOL.......... ORLO- Since I'm a newcomer to this forum, I was initially expecting to gain knowledge from you. How naive! I can call smell bullsh** even if it is over the internet- how could you possibly do everything you claim and still have the time to fill up space on this site as well as JLC's. (I worked with one guy who claimed to have done everything everyone else had done and more- he would have to be about 175 yrs. old!) It became pretty obvious to me that guys like Stan Foster, Mike Smith, and a host of others are experienced, knowledgeable, and confident enough that they have no need or desire to be arrogant or to put others down. One thing I will give you, Larry, you seem to be a proud man and that's important for starters. Too proud perhaps?
*I am really lost now, Orlo. Can you tell me exactly what you did in that picture, and the time you took for each task?
*Thanks Stan, we call them thar thangs newel butts, drop is so much classier. I cut them on the table saw, too, with a raised panel jig, no sweat.Just another sheep, BaaBaaBilly
*Qtrmeg Thanks for the nice comment, and I will try and lose the attitude. Ken, I certainly don't claim to know everything. The older I become the more I relies how much I don't know Because I'm 52 and if I never installed another set of rail again, it truly would not up sit me. because of the money in this type of work, normally a good installer will it only had to physically work 3 or 4 a week. Also I'm pending a lot of my time these days working on projects other then installing. This 1990 article attached might help you know a little more about me.Larry
*Golllleee Orlo, looks like you've got that not impressing anyone thing down pat. Congratulations on finding your niche, just watch out when the Honey Wagon man comes by...just another want a bee bee
*Billy,The rail on right, will take me on a good day less than one hour.Larry
*Orlo,Maybe you should start thinking in these terms..... "It's a house, not a race".I maybe "low class", but at least I have SOME class.Yeah, I'm the follower.......with 18 employees, what else could I be. I follow up on everything.Ed.
*Me too...Now, how 'bout dem newels and balusters?
*Ed, Orlo's just Accu-Pimpin'...
*I've been trying to stay nuetral here and learn something. Picked up a few tips along the way because I may only run a couple staircases a year. But it's been hard reading.Larry does indeed have communication deficiencies and is attitudinally challenged but some of you (who I respect) have erred in assuming that Larry does stairs. He is only a Railing specialist. Because of this it shouldn't be too hard to believe that he has some astounding speeds for his installations. I doubt very much that the fit and finish will be as flawless as Stans or even mine, but he does what the ciustomer wants. Given that, the term hack might fit and he shouldn't be offended by it. But I see no reason to doubt his word on time if we add for setup.For instance, When I was a young buck, It was nothing for me to lay 16-20 squares of three tab shingles per day. My top placement rate was 27sq in a day. Hand nailing and neatly placed. I've had quite a few guys disbelieve that but it's true because I was a specialist and had every move dowqn to a science. Some other guys couldn't learn it my way because their attitude was wrong or their body mechanics worked differently. As long as they were paid by the square, their way wasn't wrong, just different.Same here! Diff spokes for diff folks. Keep posting the photos and facts and we can all learn something. The insults are too distracting. Both sides.OK, I'm done now.
*Piffin...lay 27 square in a day by oneself including getting there, setting up, shingles carried up to roof, felt paper and drip placed, closing down for the day, tool pick up, site tidy up,....?????No...You are leaving out a zillion moves...right!?..Or you and all that tell these shingle tails are absolutely amazing....How many hours at the jobsite...from ignition off to ignition on?near the stream,ajMy record squares was 16-19(maybe)...with a helper...includes all that needs to be done too. I bid 5-7 per man max.
*You hit the nail!!!!!!!!Can't believe how so many of us think alike at times...I thoughts it would take Luka to crack the code...near the wet spot addin to it,aj
*I just gotta add a my thoughts on these goofy stairs...It sure shows how to do drop railings and that Larry would have to be fast with the silly design...b There are like a zillion....toooooo many friggin drops!!!!!!!!!!!b Give me the name of the dude that designed the sorry suckers so I can give him Stan's phone number!near the stream of horrible railings,ajNice work though Larry.
*One.. on the mountain------You are a riot. My face is still grinning. ha
*One,Went by a week before and ran the tarpaper.Shingles got delivered onto roof.I set up ladder at 6:30 AM and was picking up the trash eleven hours later. I cut my own ridge pieces and ran the drip edge and two valley metal - cut an open valley. Four twelve pitch.Counting a couple of hours for papering, it was a thirteen hour job so averages a little over two sq/hrBidding today this old man would be figuring one sq per hour for the same job or a half/hr for a steeper or cut up job.I worked hourly for a company in Texas that had a quota of one sq/hr. My bud and I always put in for a ten hour day and went home by two o'clock on most days, having met the quota. Where I first started shingling, you weren't considered a shingle layer until you could do at least twelve sq a day on a regular walk on with the paper already there.My point is that someone who does it every day will do it faster. Rails is all orlo does so he can do it faster so I have no problem believing him on that.
*piffen.. my buddy, barry.. got started in calif.. in the '70's... 17 sq. up & over... all by hisself... working til after dark when he started.. but just like u... off the roof by 2 after a couple months...course.. he ain't got no knees now...
*My knees are the only joint that doesn't hurt now.Knock on wood.
*I haven't done any roof in years, but I can remember all to will on a hot day how hard roofing was. One of my reason for being in a hurry about trying to get my system or method out and known.Is because of a contract I have with LJ Smith that there is only 14 months left on, that I'm not renewing for various reasons. If I do not find another alternative for marketing my one product, its very possible that LJ smith will in up getting my patent rights for nothing. One thing I've noticed that all handrail installer seemed to had a different method of installation. The reason it take most of these installer longer is because of not being consistent.If you noticed in my last picture that I finish as I go. Iwill have everything completely finish on the first set of stair before I go to the second set. By doing this all my tools are in one place, also I know exactly were I started and what need to be finish. I can measure the amount of time it will take to complete. In the picture by placing the newel on top of thread is just as strong as notching into stinger. I know some installer will disagree with this.If I would have moved the center line out the newel would have had to be cut into the stinger I probably would have taken two days longer on that job.Larry
*My method of installation is probably not for everyone.Buy I do believe that by using a consistent method can help people like Billy. Earlier I was ask by Billy and others how I completed at amount of work in that period of time.The only way I can show you how this is done is by showing you my steps and that would be spamming, because of the tools you would see that I need to use. So its up to you all were this goes from here.Larry
*Larry- To be honest with you I would actually be interested in reading your complete treatise on handrail building. Perhaps FHB could give you your own read-only thread here, that way one would not have to wade through all the back and forth banter that has become a trademark of almost every discussion you've been involved in. Hey, you should write a book.......... With no disrespect intended, in either of these venues you should get some editorial assistance so it will be easier for people to read and understand what you say. Have a great day! -Ken
*Ken....spam goes great with my break....time....Try it again...sometime....Tasty!near the stream,ajLarry....Do a set of posts detailing your moves and times..but for a standard straight set of stairs with a bazillion less drops.
*A video would be easier to understand - maybe on CD Now you're talking production costs.
*It's not the 'back and forth banter' that is the problem. It is the advertising of Larry's tools and methods of using those tools that is not allowed. If he made a thread, it would be advertising, whether the thread is read only or not. Why would Taunton want to make a thread read only, that they didn't even want on the forum in the first place ?He has been warned that he will be banned if he advertises again. You guys are encouraging him to get himself banned.But then... maybe you already know that ?
*Luka,There is a method to the madness.Ed.
*hey, orlo.. did you get your "get outta jail free" card yet ?
*heres how I cut my upeasings...1 every 10 seconds....thinkin about a web site to sell these.......no just the plans!
*Mike, shhhhhhhhhh. Let sleeping dogs lie. And while I got you.Need one of Bucks beers to wash down that meal?Rock n Roll in BG......March. How bout you, helen and the choir director?
*iron city ?hah, hah, hah...'gansett is better than that pgh swill....BG in March... more like U of Miami in march, huh ?
*no no no Mikey, Cleveland beer. No swill.Rock n roll, not roundball.Old guy rock n roll.......you game?
*tell me more..some kinda concert or a lost weekend at BG ?
*Budvar......The real thing......gotta employee from Germany. He sneaks it in for me past customs when he comes back from visiting his mother.Damn, that's good beer.You can have your "classic rock".....I was into that 30 years ago.Have you heard the new one from Puddle of Mud called "Blurry"? New stuff.....great song. I guess you won't get around to listening to that for another 30 years when it's considered "classic rock".Don't go stale on me........Ed.
*Wow- You guys gettin' all primed up here on this particular thread gettin' ready for the reappearance of our favorite you-know-who?
*Lost nite, cant do the wknd anymore. Old guys come back and play together. Lotta fun. Don't know if it's worth a drive more than the 15 mi we have to go, but if you're in the neighborhood....Ed, how bout the no bra days of old. Get into that again? Will try to find Puddle of Mud. ThanksI think orlo went into partnership with RK. Now there's a pair.
*Real nice jig Allen. Years ago I created virtually the same set up but I have long since lost or misplaced it. That’s a great idea for straight in-line easing. But what kind of jig or how do you layout and cut a helical easing like this one here?
*Make the jig out of the warped ply from one of the big box value bins.
*Hey Cal,You bet I remember those days.......as far as I can tell, they're still around......only hangin' a bit lower......Check out The Dave Matthews Band. Also good new stuff. Puddle of Mud is probably a one hit wonder like so many back in our day. But still good for what it is. Their music is kinda hard for some taste, but that one song shows a great use of guitar harmonics.Ed.
*Listening to radio isn't a good way to pick up music. When doing work in a record (cd)store I pick up a lot of good exposure to new music. I've got a job there tomorrow and will ask about the puddle. Thanks.
*They just changed formats on my favorite radio station here in Dallas. Really pissed me off. It used to be alternative music and now has gone to classic rock.How many times must I listen to "Stairway to Heaven"?I'm not going to be my father.......All he listened to was music from the WWII era. Anything else was.........well, you know.If you stop listening to new music, new ideas, read new books, learn new ways........Just because something is new doesn't mean it's great, but it doesn't mean it may not have value either. It's in the eye (or ears) of the beholder.If that happens to me? If I stop learning or being curious? If I refuse to look at new alternatives because I'm stuck in the "old school" way of thinking? Just put me down because my life is over.The beauty of having "experience" is being able to weigh the future against the past and the ability to bring out the best of the past while using the advances of the future.That's how I see it.Ed.
*Ed, I agree with you one hundred percent. Love puddle of mud,especialy the song control. It's not that I'm trying to stay young and hip,I'm just looking for something new and exciting. I have listened to all the classic rock I can stand. What's that old saying? "Free your mind"
*Gunner, that would be "Free John Sinclair". Sorry, went back in time again. Good music is good music. No time line. Now, later, old or older, don't make no nevermind to me. Just no head banging muddied guitar riffs please. Gonna check out puddle this am.