Just had my basement drywall hung, and waiting on the contractor to find some available tapers. Everything looked decent at first, but now I’m wondering about the quality of the hanging.
What are hallmarks of a good job?
I’ve never hung any myself or seen a job before taping, but there are untapered edges butting together on the ceiling and walls in places and not sure how you make that smooth. Also, what should I expect for broken edges?
thanks!
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Replies
all 4 side of the drywall are not tappered, therefore every butt joint cant be.
Edited 10/23/2007 7:08 pm ET by Ronbaby
what are the hallmarks of a good job?
Is it normal to have each stage subbed out to someone different, some are guys he's never worked with before? And the schedule keeps getting pushed back and I'm getting really frustrated and considering firing him.
We try to use the same subs all the time. They know that and make room for us in their schedule.
If he needs to find new subs every job he either 1. doesn't pay them, or 2. is always shopping for the cheapest guy, or 3. is very particular and hasn't found a sub he likes yet. Hopefully for you he's the third one!Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
You are going to have butts, hard to avoid especially in basements where it's sometimes hard to get larger sheets in.
What's important is where the butts are.
Anymore it's hard to avoid some broken edges, depends upon how big you're talking. A good finisher will take care of both
Has your contractor given you reason to doubt that he will follow through?
Yeah, I figured the taper and mudder could take care of most of the little things, so my bigger frustration is that work has happened on two of the last seven days the job has been scheduled for, and most of the days we get a call that *maybe* some work will happen later in the day, and it doesn't. And he's never worked with the tapers he's arranged, so obviously you don't know who's in your house or the quality of their work.
He's saying it'll be done by Friday, but unless there's a ton of work tomorrow, it's not going to happen. At this point, I'm thinking if the taping isn't done, and well, by tomorrow evening, he's gone. Am I overreacting??
How do you really judge the quality of the hanging, or can just about anything be taped over?
Thanks, really appreciate the feedback.
There again the overreacting depends on if this is a drywall sub and you are the GC or this is the GC responsible for the whole project.My drywall sub has more than one crew that finishes, so sometimes it's a matter of scheduling. Which in my experience the drywall sub can be ne of the harder trades to schedule. I always warn the client that when it gets t the drywall stage it will appear that things have slowed down and in some cases that won't be someone on site the whole day has it has been till now.This sounds more like trust or lack of communication issues than quality issues
Barry E-Remodeler
i think your overreacting,if you pull the trigger just who are you going to get to finish it? you hired this guy he's running 5 days behind,you show him the door you owe him money and don't think he's going to give you a discount becuase your unhappy.
then YOU have to find a finisher,you will find alot of guys won't eveb come look at the job,especially when you start telling them you think it's a crappy job of hanging.
i don't know if you said how much rock this is but a couplefinishers can come in tape it in the am,come back tommorrow and put #2 on ,go to lunch and come back and finish and there gone. good luck larry
oh by the way did i tell you the guys that did my house were the weakest link in the whole deal?thats another storyif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Can you send some pictures to us of the job
-Lou
Hi Grant,
Can you elaborate a little bit on the basement finishing process? You said you were getting frustrated with the general contractor because he's pushing things back. Sometimes that's unavoidable, but can you describe what's been happening maybe?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
The biggest problem has been that the drywall contractor has way too many jobs going and is having to call in favors from friends to get people he's never worked with before to help. Quality is the most important thing to me, and so it's tough for me to feel comfortable that the job's going to turn out when he's scrounging up people who aren't going to be as invested in the project.
He has his own people here today, though, so I'm feeling a lot better about things. Again, because I've never drywalled, I have no idea how to assess quality mid-project, so I'll wait until it's done to judge it.
Don't be shy now, post some pics of the project! We love basements!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Drywall looks very rough before it's finished, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's best to hire a good contractor and let him know what your standards are for the finished product and leave it up to him to make sure it happens.
If someone is hanging drywall for us we don't trust them to check the straightness of walls prior to hanging since they all say they will but don't, so we do that before insulation goes in and plane down high points and shim low ones.
The sheets should be attached according to a fastener schedule that all the guys know, so we're just looking for obvious mistakes. The screw heads shouldn't penetrate the paper or another should be put next to it. Broken corners are better to just cut out and fill with quick mud, so that's usually up to the taper, but we'll do if the hanger's don't so the tapers don't try to hide a broken corner.
The quality of finish dictates the quality of hanging. A perfectly smooth final finish is only possible if the sheets are hung properly on a straight wall. Most finishes are much less than that so there's a wide range of defects that won't make the final finish a problem. Heavy texture hides just about everything.
A quality taper should fix any problems in the hanging before he starts, but they never do. A quality contractor should watch the process as the subs progress, but too many times it's the client who's told it's simply not possible to fix a problem because it's already taped and textured.
It's no wonder we do most of our own sheetrock.
As a client the best thing you can do is clearly state what your expectations are to the contractor and don't pay him completely until the job is done. Make sure he knows this up front. Still, you'll be give a dozen reasons why the sheetrock isn't right and everyone points the finger at everyone else. The low guy on the pole is the hanger and he won't get paid even if he did the job exactly as the contractor asked him to. It's in the contractor's best interest to screw the little guy for the whole job, which too many take advantage of. In the end you'll see the contractor adding box after box of mud to a screwed up wall until you give in and write that check. It's too bad that's the way too many jobs are run.
If it were your personal house and you're really anal I'd hire a guy who does both the hanging and taping and look at their past jobs. They won't do a better job on your house. It just doesn't happen. If you have a general contractor I'd want to see past houses he's had finished. Ride him if he balks and keep insisting that you want to see the results of the exact guys he is using on your house. Unfortuantely, it probably won't matter in the end. Quality contractors demand quality results from their subs and lesser guys simply don't. A ford isn't going to ride like a cadilac regardless of how hard you complain to the dealer.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Grant
A lot of what you'll get is what you pay for! There are varying degrees of quality and obviously the better quality costs the most.
I think that they refer to drywall finish in levels, level 5 being the highest finish.
If you fire this guy are you going to be able to go out and find guys to do the work in less time? If not you might try to be a bit more patient.
Doug
Grant,
Most drywall finish is specified Level 1 through 5 (I believe this is through the Gypsum Association). Level 5 is a finish where under critical light conditions you cannot see joints-the surface is smooth. These Levels of finish are industry standard and should be defined in your contract (I hope).
You should review this with your GC and see what he says. Depending on the size of your basement, a good crew can get it done in three days.
Good Luck
Bruce
So you've never done it, never seen it, give no evidence other than broken edges( is it a 1/2" broken or 6" broken ?), it looked good at first, they have butt joints ( which are so inevetable that they gave it a name) , You are giving no indication of the level of finish you expect, Now you want an intelligent response from strangers who have never seen the project to tell you if it warrants firing the contractor.
Does this look like a good way to handle your project?
Throw us a bone here.
You have not filled out your profile - so we have no idea if you are in Iraq ( where it's kind of hard to find good finishers right now).
I'm all for helping but you gotta fill in some of the blanks.
If I were you I would do a google on USG and I am pretty sure that their site has a pretty good outline of the process, if not all the technical information that is included in their handbook and start with an understanding of the process.
Or just fire your contractor and say it was all his fault.
I really want to help here but I cant find a way to do it.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Scrwews, not nails, especially the cewiling. Some hangers use a few nails to hold it up, then go back and add screws. All the screw heads need to be just below the surface, but not sunk. Check for all the electrical boxes now, one always gets covered up: look for humps in the all. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
> .... there are untapered edges butting together on the ceiling and
> walls in places and not sure how you make that smooth.
There shouldn't be butt joints in your walls. There will almost always be butt joints in ceilings. A good hanger will place the butt joint between the joists and use an edging splice behind it that pulls the edges of the rock upwards, creating an artificial taper. Even if this is not done, a good taper can feather the compound out for a foot or more on each side and hide the joint very well. If this is done, the only place you're likely to notice it is where the joint hits the top of the wall.
> Also, what should I expect for broken edges?
Depends on the size of the break. If it can be covered over with joint tape, there's no problem. Good tapers can fix wider stuff pretty easily.
There shouldn't be butt joints in your walls.
Nonesense. Trying to avoid them isn't a bad practice, but there's no reason they "shouldn't be there".
There will almost always be butt joints in ceilings.
Why would there be butt joints on ceilings, but not walls? Are ceilings somehow longer than walls? Or are you hanging boards vertically (incorrectly) on the walls?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Yes, I hang boards vertically on the walls, and it's not "incorrect."George Patterson
Perhaps you've entered the wrong thread.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"I hang boards vertically on the walls, and it's not "incorrect.""no - it is harder to do and ahrder to finish tho
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I hang boards vertically on the walls, and it's not "incorrect.""
"no - it is harder to do and ahrder to finish tho"
I've often heard this, but have never been able to figure it out. For me, if the walls are shorter than the length of my DW, I think it's way easier to hang it vertical, for the simple reason that you get no butt joints. Maybe it's me, but I'd rather finish 10 tapers than one butt joint.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"For me, if the walls are shorter than the length of my DW, I think it's way easier to hang it vertical"
I've always worked that way, too. I've only installed drywall in my own homes, never for a client, so I haven't thought or read a whole lot about it. The tapered joints just seemed so much easier to finish.
Plus, with the horizontal installation, it seems you'd end up with joints that have to bridge across studs. My thinking is probably flawed, but I figured it would be better to have joints continuously supported, with both drywall sheets attached to the same stud.
Allen
Hanging board horizontally results in less seams 99.99999% of the time. If you can't finish a butt seam you probably shouldn't be finishing drywall in the first place.
Edited 10/24/2007 9:46 am ET by sledgehammer
And another thing... Board hanging and finishing are generally paid as piece work. Good hangers have tapers that know their work and know they can make money. Bad hangers usually have trouble finding and keeping finishers.
"If you can't finish a butt seam you probably shouldn't be finishing drywall in the first place. "
Butt joints aside, I'll happily admit I should't be finishing drywall. I should be on the beach, with a case of Coronas! LOL
It's not that I can't do butt joints. I just hate 'em, so I don't set myself up to have one every 8' if I can help it.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
There seem to be several comments here from guys who have never learned to tape a butt joint so that seams like the source of a lot of the assumptions they should run verticle. The only pro crews I have ever seen run vertical were in commercial. You have an idea why?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Grant, I have held on on answering your Q because it is really too hard to tell if this contractor is jacking you around or if you are just a bit too demanding without a lot more details and photos to assess. It could even be half and half.sorry.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Had a chat with him last night that we'd have to put the project on hold after Friday since I'm going to be out of town, and today he has a big crew of his own guys, so things are looking up.
Again, because I've never done drywall, I have no idea what to expect after the hanging stage and am not sure what a taper can hide. Given the contractor hadn't worked much with the hangers, there were some big blow-outs and some of the edges were pretty rough, combined with consistent delays, I was getting pretty nervous.
I've done all of the rest of the work myself, so am VERY invested in how this turns out, so expectations are pretty high.
Now that work is going full speed, I'll reserve judgement until the finishing is done.
"I've done all of the rest of the work myself,"Don't get your feelings hurt here, but that is a great disincentive to most contractors. When I have to work with a DIY HO who does much of his own work, it becomes exceedingly difficult to do good work or to maintain a schedule. I often have to make corrections to fix what the HO did wrong. Essentially, you are your own general contractor but don't know what you are doing in that role, so the delays are probably mostly on you. And like I said above, the more professional subs and contractors are very unwilling to take on that sort of job so what you are left with is sorting out the guys in the bottom of the barrel. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes it's a draw. Other times, well, #### hits the fan.So good luck
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There seem to be several comments here from guys who have never learned to tape a butt joint so that seams like the source of a lot of the assumptions they should run verticle.
I was thinking the same thing. A good taper can make any seam virtually dissapear....tapered edge, butt edge, Home Depot edge....
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Likewise - a good taper can get peeved with a hanger who did sloppy work putting the board up, 'cause his work just got twice as hard.I can't say, but in this thread for instance, I have been speculating in the back of my mind whether he is having a hard time getting a taper because the board is poorly done. But it could be a lot of reasons. Tapers used to new work are not going to be interested in crawling down into some bodies basement with the owner there looking over their shoulders and having to work more neatly than on new jobs where they can do twice the space in a day.One reason we remodelors have to become multi-skilled is because there are so many times like that where the job is just too small to get a sub to be interested.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The only pro crews I have ever seen run vertical were in commercial. You have an idea why?
My understanding is most commercial work has high suspended ceiling heights. Butt joints and horizontal tapered edges don't work well with wall angle. Makes sense too me.
The ones I have seen were all different ceiling height (8', 10') and ceiling types (drop, drywall, open truss) but all were run vertically. I thought it was the height issue at first, but the residential 9' & 10' ceilings I have seen were all run horizontal. I had thought maybe the mudders could finish the taper joints with fewer passes (seemed most were done in two coats) offsetting the cost of the extra seams and it made it cheaper for them to do it this way. Could be it is the steel stud, offset drywall panel support system mentioned elsewhere, I can't say I noticed if all were steel stud.
The only pro crews I have ever seen run vertical were in commercial. You have an idea why?
There are many rated wall assemblies that are used in commercial construction, and one of the most common would be 3 5/8" steel studs at 24" centers with verticle 5/8" rock staggered so the joint on one side is not in line with the joint on the front side.
Just a question for drywall hangers - When you are doing a wall horizontally, if you get a large room with butt seams, do you line up the butt seams so the taper has one long butt seam vertical, or split them?
SplitOtherwise, the tape crosses making an X and more thickness building up a bump there and focusing the weakness in one place on the same stud.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know why because I worked for two years in commercial doing a ton of metal studs and drywall. Most of our drywall was vinyl covered so each piece was a finished product. 99% of our work was in commercial buildings that had some form of suspended ceiling. So, even if we were hanging sheetrock, most of the tops of the walls was going to be covered with a suspended ceiling.Which brings us to the modular sizes in commercial construction. Typically everyone involved in the operation is maximizing profit one way or the other. So, if a ceiling is designated at 8' above finish floor, the gcs will provide a nominal ceiling height that fits inside a wall assmbly of 8' studs. They then order 8' boards..either regular rock or vinyl covered rock. The ordering process is easy to figure: no messing around with 12' board....14' board....16' board...just walk into every room and add the perimeter and divide by 4. I used to make up the material lists for a 2000 sf drs suite in ten minutes: metal track, studs, board, screws, bead, blah, blah, blah. Keep in mind that they have 9' units and 10' units in vinyl board, so basically, we maximized ceiling height every time. The other thing to keep in mind is that it would be very difficult to to deal with the taper at the top of the boards because the wall angle of the grid system would fasten right there. It would have to be capped with a bead and mudded before the angle would lay properly.When you see how "most" of the drywall in normal offices situation gets istalled, you'll see how it becomes "normal", in stark contrast to residential who are always looking to clearspan the entire room and ceilings without any butt joints.fka (formerly known as) blue
You and Zano put it ll togethr pretty well.I remember when I was down in Boston at the Mass General Hospital for wife's surgery a few years ago and seeing some renovation work in one area. Walking past one afternoon on the way to a test, guys were setting up the drop cclothes to frame a steel studded wall whih was done that night. Thjen the next AM the roik was being hung. by that night, it had two ccoats on the tape and the next day it was painted. Thoroughly professional and I never saw a sign of dust or mess. I had to walk past there 2-3 times a day as it was a space sort of between a cafeteria and a test center. That was the first time I had seen SR hung verticle other than back when that old ameture had me trying to do it that way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wow over 50 posts on evaluating a rock job. And I always just checked for "clickers".
Been rocking 25 years. ; ^ ) Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Mike, what is a clicker?fka (formerly known as) blue
Be guessing a high nail or screw head.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Let me throw in some fuel...
I have some walls in my house I'm redoing:
One is 10'3" High x 8'2" Long
The other is 10'3" High x 7'10" Long
How would you 'rock these? I was just planning on running horizontal and taping 2 horizontal joints each wall... I was planning on hiding the 3" of extra height by splitting the difference top and bottom and then covering with baseboard and crown molding.
How's my logic?
Not so good.Hide it all at the bottom. I use at least a 5.5" baseboard plus base cap anyways, but I would cut the sheets to fit and not worry about ten dollars worth of wasteEven when using crown, I tape at least first coat at wall/ceiling to limit the infiltration air leaks.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That would work.
I am curious though because for the cost of 1 more sheet of rock you can dispense with the crown and get full coverage to the floor. So whats your time worth against the cost of 1 sheet of rock?
Assumption being made that the crown is a clever cover , not a planned item for the look.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
rasher,
One is 10'3" High x 8'2" LongThe other is 10'3" High x 7'10" Long
This is how I'd hang it, assuming your using 4'x8' sheets,... rip 2 1/2" off one tapered edge, butt to ceiling and fasten, rip 2 1/2 " off another sheets tapered edge, set this ripped edge 1/2" off floor and fasten. This will leave a 31 1/2" rip for the middle, tapered to tapered and tapered to "butt" or cut edge. Easily taped and mudded at the same time.
On the 8' 2" I would add needed blocking to one corner, hanging tight to the opposite corner wall and putting in a 2" filler at the blocked end (the filler gets cut from the 7" 10" sheet off the butt end).
I always rip the tapered edge off at the ceiling and floor, unless I'm going to have a crown that will completely cover the tapered edge at the ceiling, just my idiosyncrasy :).
Just one question for you...
I was planning on hiding the 3" of extra height by splitting the difference top and bottom....
Where do you come up with a 3" difference? it's more like 27" if you're using 4' sheets or 15" if you're using 54" sheets (which are hard to come by in small quantity)
just wondering,
Geoff
Yup. When you pass the drywall knife over a proud nail or screw, you hear a click.
You know, when you check to make sure the fasteners are sunk enough. You run the head of your axe up and down the studs and the bad ones CLICK.
I've been in drywall too many years. Houses, hospitals, condos, offices and military stuff.
The only reason commercial rock is stood up is so the tapers can finish it with their boxes (machines) easier. They can run seams up to 10' from the ground w/o a bench or scaffold.
Any wall can achieve the required fire rating by being stood up or layed down. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Mike, I've seen the guys running the boxes horizontally in residential so that can't be the "only" reason. It may be a big one, but it's not the only one because the tapers that did our work did it by hand.fka (formerly known as) blue
The reason stand up is prefered is just as I stated, recessed edges, no butts. They can run the boxes on the seams and not hit any butts. When there are butts and seams you have to hit the butts, then the seams after the butts are dry. It creates another step. Budget hours, budget hours, budget hours. ; ^ (
In buildings with long corridors such as medical offices, stand up can look horrible in certain lighting situations. We usually run these walls horizontally, especially if there is lots of plumbing or electrical to screw up layout. Another reason stand up can be wavey is that it is hung wrong on metal studs. Metal studs must face the sme way and you must rock and screw from the open side first.
In houses I feel there is no place for boxes, it should all be hand finished, but that is my own predjudice. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Mike, interesting comments. Please elaborate about why the waviness is created in long walls and about the "screw from open side". I'm confused.The long halls comment kinda caught me off guard. Are you saying that you guys will intentionally create butts on long halls?fka (formerly known as) blue
Jim, when standing up board you must apply the board as shown in my attachment. Edit: oops forgot the attachment seenext post)
If the "hard" side is screwed first you will have a bad seam (uneven). This is shown in the old USG guide books for rock and studs.
Have you ever walked in an office building with late afternoon sun and seen the "waviness" every four feet in a long corridor? That is what we try to avoid.
In addition, when laying out 24" o.c. and standing up board, you cannot have one stud off layout. Otherwise you will have the seams (of opposing sides) on the same stud, a no no (even in an unrated assembly). The same is true for 16" o.c. only 2 studs can mess it up.
In addition when standing up board if the wall is taller than the sheet and you have a horizontal butt, that butt must have solid blocking to achieve rating.
These are a couple of things we deal with daily and like all rules there are exceptions and other options
Most of our assemblies are driven by manufacturer specs or UL, the building code just doesn't address a lot of the situations that arise. We have a gypsum assoc. that will get involved in difficult situations and help us out.
Also, like Piffin said any finisher worth his weight can make a butt disappear.(any chance I get to agree with Piffin I'll take.) ; ^ )
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Edited 10/26/2007 8:59 am by ruffmike
Jim, here is my quick sketch. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I sure hope you rock better than you sketch!
; )
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Congratulations!
ruffmike receives the 'What We Do for Breaktime' award.
Saaalute! View ImageView Image
Jim really deserves a pat on the back too. I notice lately that the way he ASKS questions non0arguemntively is bringing out a lot of good discussion around here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, that deseves a different one.
A Breaktime Appreciation Award goes to Jim_Allen for continued support of the forum.
Saaalute! View Image
Edited 10/26/2007 10:31 am ET by rez
Whaddaya doin' with the attachments?
Got plans for the weekend and trying to ensure you won't get bogged down here?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Thanks guys! I am making an effort to not antagonize anyone under any conditions.
And thanks to Mike for giving me a lesson that I'd never given any though to or knew of. In those years that I did serious amounts of board, 95% of it was vinyl with a hidden clip system, so I'm not sure if we were doing it right or wrong. I think our primary goals were to start with factory butts, where possible, thus reducing our need to custom wrap the edges.
I do know that I've never given it much thought about having joints on both sides of a stud.
Mea Culpa.....I'll do better in the future.fka (formerly known as) blue
Damn.
I need to either ask more questions or stop being such a prick. ;)
Nice trophy. ;)
I'm going to do a search for Jim's posts and see what else he wins.
Gooooooo Jim !Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Sending a few bucks to the prize giver helps <G>
I would but anything under a 5 keeps ending up in a g string and anything 5 or over keeps ending up in a smile - ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Moving to Texas tends to mellow out all those who come here. I know it loosened me up a bunch having moved from New York.
Bruce
Aint that the truth Bruce!
I survived my first Austin meeting with the building department: they were all gone....they leave at 1pm on Fridays LOL!
Oh well....we'll see what happen on Monday.fka (formerly known as) blue
I see you expected something to happend in one day-Now you know better.
Are you doing a commercial or residential project?
Have you read up on McMansion ordinance?
I recommend getting there at 7:15 am to be on top of the list. You might be able to get out of there by 10 am.
Good luck
I've got all those McMansion ordinances. I'm sure I'll find out a lot more about them in the near future. We're doing a second story addition over there in Travis Heights.
At this point, we are just looking for guidance on how to move forward because we have a couple of minor variances that we'd like to do a tradeoff on.
It probably would be a good idea to get there at 7:15. We are trying for an online appt, but will probably opt to get there sometime on Monday. fka (formerly known as) blue
I'll take that as a compliment coming from a real finisher.I don't do it regular ( with the arthritis creeping along my hands and shoulders I couldn't if I wanted to) but I learned by watching some good ones and doing a few houses and rooms myself. Didn't find it hard to pick up.it is like anything else, learn the steps in order and the technique to make it easier and go for it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Jim, I snapped a couple of pics at the jobsite today. This is what we framed this week. It is the waiting area of a Native American health center.
Won't have to worry about sraight walls here. <G> Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Nice pics! Who says metal studders don't have no fun?
Standing up there looks scary. I'd do it for short quick deals, but I'd probably opt for a safety rail, if it fit, where possible.
Do you ever work with rails or was this out of the norm?fka (formerly known as) blue
Joe is only about 5' off the ground, there is an aluminium scaffold set up on the first floor and about a foot in front of him. Hard to see with all that metal.
We are required to have rails or fall protection above 6'.
This is a fun job to frame with a good super also. Kind of an odd construction, medical center on the first two floors with concrete decks and 3 floors of apartments (built completely out of wood) on top of a post tension slab.
We are framing the interior and exterior of floors 1&2, mechanical soffits in the the units and rocking the whole project. Plus its only 2 miles from home. ; ^)
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I've done both residential and commercial.I asked the same thing years ago ,the tapers told me that vertical seams are used because of fire ratings in commercial work. Horizontal seams are allowed as far as I know in commercial work,but rarely seen unless it is part of a laminated firewall.Then the first boards are horizontal.
Some tapers claim that the finish is better with a vertical installation. I do not see a difference myself if the horizontal is taped correctly.When installing rock myself, I hang vertically,easier for one man.I rarely tape, so it really doesn't matter to me except for the extra cost of taping more seams.The taper I have used adds 10% to the total cost if I hang vertically. He prefers horizontally, but rocks vertically when by himself as I do.
mike
My thinking is probably flawed, but I figured it would be better to have joints continuously supported, with both drywall sheets attached to the same stud.
That's precisely why you want the seams staggered. With wood framing, studs are going to move...especially new construction. In such instances, the last thing you want is a floor to ceiling seam.
Someone mentioned commercial vs residential. Most commercial work is metal framing, and stud movement is not an issue.
If vertical were the correct, or even prefered, method of hanging rock on walls, than why wouldn't one hang ceiling boards parallel, rather than perpendicular?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
J.D., thanks for the explanation. You and Piffin have made it clear to me that horizontal would be the way to go. It has been 20 years since I drywalled an entire room ... I've only put up a sheet or two at a time since then.
Allen
Maybe its a regional thing, or residential vs. commercial? All the drywall I've seen in office space around here go up vertically. Is there a reason for this vs. the horizontal that I see in residential?
It is more common with commercial hangers to ruin it verticle and with residential to run horizontally.I'll let the commercial guys say why.But it is immensely easier to hang it up and straight alone or with help when you do it horizontally and for me - it is about twice or three times the work to tape a verticle seam than horizontal.
Reason is that I cannot reach 8' high to finish a joint to the ceiling and it is a LOT of work to keep reaching up and stepping up and then bending down. With a horizontal joint at chest level I can just walk along and hit the whole thing with none of the dobbie wobbles that come with meeting your self coming from the other way. And for walls up to twelve feet long hung with one 12' sheet, there is less seam to tape than doing the same wall with vertical eight footers. So why do it in a way that makes hanging harder, taping harder and increases the number of feet to be taped?Neighther is really right or wrong, but I can hang and tape a house almost twice as fast hanging horizonmtal.And yues I have done it both ways. I had to work under a guy who preferred vertical once and I could not convince him of how much time we were wasting, but it was his money.His background was from hanging paneling in the sixties and seventies so that is where he got it into his head to do this wayButt joints are easy to skim out far enough that the seam doesn't show.,
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On walls under 16', I usually run the rock, and tape, horizontally. My yard stocks 16s, so getting them isn't a problem.
If the wall is over 16', I sometimes run the rock vertically, to avoid butt seams. But I can reach up to an 8' ceiling. <G>
It's getting down and up to the floor that's getting difficult LOL
I have to admit, I seldom do more than a room at a time anymore. And usually not that much.
Vertical is only used in commercial for firecode reasons. Most commercial walls are UL Rated and the UL states that they should be hung vertically in order that a fire will not penetrate the drywall as could be the case in horizontal between the studs. New UL ratings dictate that even on vertical applications a butt joint must be backed by the same gauge steel stud in between the studs. Depending on light and type of paint a butt joint will be apparent.it cannot be totally hidden. A butt joint above windows and doors will be accented by the casing; same applies for base and chair molding and especially crown molding.A butt joint is always a long elongated curve unless one uses one of the several systems available to make a butt joint flat.It is impossible to have straight seams on vertical applications as the curvature of the wood stud negates the tapered edge between the two boards. Wooden studs are never perfectly straight and even if the tapered edge remains, the board will go "in and out" over its lengthand this will be highlighted by light and non-flat paints.Also as someone alluded to; wood studs are not straight and on vertical drywall on wood there is not enough space to properly affix the nail or screw as they both should be 3/8" from the edge of the board. Same applies to wood; install a nail or screw near the edge of any type of wood and what heppens..it cracks the wood..same for drywall and the nail or screw loses its holding capacity. Further, wood shrinks on it's width and tight vertical seams will crack or ridge due to the wood stud shrinkage.Not proper to vertically hang rock on wood..check the USG Gypsum Construction which states that horizontal is better on wood for various reasons; most of them I have stated.
Good post Zano.I had forgotten about the fire rated issues on drywall. It's been about 20 years since I was involved in any serious commercial work, but you are right... the open joints of a fire rated wall do have an effect. I do remember installing multiple layers of drywall and a lot of that was done horizontal. No joints could line up though. fka (formerly known as) blue
"It is more common with commercial hangers to ruin it verticle and with residential to run horizontally."I volunteer a lot with Habitat for Humanity and we can ruin it both ways. :)
BruceT
"There shouldn't be butt joints in your walls."
???
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
How many boards have you finshed or supervised?
"There shouldn't be butt joints in your walls"
happens all the time - whenever the room is more than 12' long.Since this is a basement job, ther eis a good chance that 8' or less is the greatest length that could be supplied down there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It is a good idea to have the people hanging and taping working together. The best drywall I've ever seen was a where the same guys did both. they hung the drywall very carefully compared to most and it saved them time in the long run.
"but now I'm wondering about the quality of the hanging."
The Quality Hangers I know, run the drywall horizontally, and then stagger the joints
They will not have a vertical joint in the top corner of the door (see the vertical crack where the door slams) the joint would be in the middle of the door or window (less butt joint taping).
Running drywall vertical or parallel with the joist is weaker. When nailing it, the nails are too close to the edge and have no strength(crushed DW), screws help, but will still break the edges. Seen novices run ceilings parallel, it cracks all over.
The Hallmark of a good Drywall hang job?
It doesnt fall off the wall/ceiling.
Say you got a 20 foot long wall, 8 feet high. Hang the rock vertical and you're finishing 32 feet of joints. I'm excluding the corners. Hang it horizontally and it's 28 feet of taping with only 8 of that a butt. So there's less to do on a horizontal job.Now consider the visual effects of horizontal vs. vertical. This is important if we assume all tapers are not super-human and there will be some visual evidence of a seam. It is far easier to see four vertical 8 foot seams than two 4 foot seams (ALWAYS stagger the joints.) and one horizontal seam that is not at eye level. Plus the long horizontal seam is at the most convenient height to be working. This might not be at all helpful to the OP but he seems content now anyway. But if you still are curious, Grant74, what you need to look for is sheetrock that's as close to being coplaner as possible. You know, without bumps. Look for proud nails or screws. (over-driven ones don't hold well but a taper can hide them..... most tapers won't bother getting a screw gun to sink a proud nail and they're devilishly tough to hide if left proud) A good taper can fix just about anything. Hell, I can even do it. All it takes is patience in the absence of talent.edit: My first example assumes 12' sheets. Use shorter and the advantage decreases.
Edited 10/24/2007 5:21 pm by sapwood