Replies

1. 
   DougU | Oct 11, 2006 05:40am | #1

   Get a damp rag and wipe excess glue off right away, some disagree with this method but if you dont saturate the area with water you'll be OK.

   Thoroughly sand everything out and you'll be just fine. You should do that anyhow because you will have tool marks and finger prints/oil from your hands that need to be removed to make for an even coat of stain and finish.

   Doug

2. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 11, 2006 05:53am | #2

   I'm a cabinetmaker, and I use the damp rag method.

   Others say you should let the glue set up to where it gets rubbery, and then scrape it off. I don't like this technique, because the glue will sometimes soak into the wood grain, and will not come out unless you scrape it vigorously with a very sharp scraper.

   For a rag, I use something with some "tooth" to it -- like an old wash cloth.

   Using water will raise the grain, so do sand it some before staining.

   ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Oct 11, 2006 06:00am | #3

   Be sure to wipe down the surfaces with mineral spirits before staining.  This will reveal any errant glue so it can be scraped and sanded before applying stain. 

4. 
   Piffin | Oct 11, 2006 06:48am | #4

   If the glue is leaking out a little, I will let it kick hard first, then use a scraper to remove it before sanding the whole surface even. But if it is a lot of ooze-out, I will wash it offf with a wet rag, and then srape and sand

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 11, 2006 07:26am | #5

   Fonzie - "What procedure works best to keep the glue from sealing the surface where the oak is joined, thus making a light spot? We are thinking about masking with blue tape right up to the joint."

   We do this stuff all the time with stair remodeling projects.

   Don't Use white glue, yellow glue, carpenters glue, elmer's glue, PVA, etc or epoxy. You will get a line and not to pick an arguement with the folks here who say you can wipe it off with a damp rag but that's a myth. It will seal the pores and in addition to the glue joint line you will get an banded area along the line that wont take stain or takes it poorly. Especially on something like oak. Maybe you can get away with that one something like pine but not on an open pore material like oak. You'd have to sand down 1/64 to 1/32 to get to open pore wood again.

   Do Use Polyurethane Glue (as in Gorilla Glue, Borden Elmer's ProBond Polyurethane Glue, Excel One, or some other company's brand). After the glue has set up you can scape off the ooze and sand it lightly if any still remains and if any glue fills a gap or still remains it will take stain unlike the PVA type and epoxy glues.

   ---

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1. 
   MisterT | Oct 13, 2006 01:10pm | #13

   Great minds....

   scary huh???#$&%(*$#

   Please excuse our mess....

   Tagline under reconstruction...

    

2. 
   DougU | Oct 16, 2006 04:47am | #30

   Don't Use white glue, yellow glue, carpenters glue, elmer's glue, PVA, etc or epoxy. You will get a line and not to pick an arguement with the folks here who say you can wipe it off with a damp rag but that's a myth. It will seal the pores and in addition to the glue joint line you will get an banded area along the line that wont take stain or takes it poorly. Especially on something like oak. Maybe you can get away with that one something like pine but not on an open pore material like oak. You'd have to sand down 1/64 to 1/32 to get to open pore wood again.

   This paragraph is foolish.

   I've glued using yellow and some white glue and I dont have the problem that you mention. Maybe your just not putting enough effort into it!

   Why is it that when some people dont have any success with certain methods then those methods must be dismissed as not valid.

   Doug

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 24, 2006 02:45am | #38

   Well, I still haven't gotten around to making those test samples. Things unexpectedly got a little hectic last week so I forgot about getting them done but will get to them sometime this week for sure. However in support of my argument for the use of polyurethane over white or yellow PVAs I did find some supporting information while googling around.

   from: The Truth About Polyurethane Glue

   The bottom line, experts say, is that polyurethane glue is much more stainable than yellow glue because it sits on top of the wood and doesn’t seal the pores of the wood the same way that yellow glue does.

   "Polyurethane glue is not foolproof," says Zimmerman with Franklin International. "But it eliminates the first 90 percent or more of problems you might have with staining."

   from: Old House Journal Online - Clues and Glues:

   Since yellow glue does not absorb stain, fastidious application and cleanup are essential to prevent the glue from showing through stains or sealing the wood surface prior to staining.

   Polyurethane glue dries to a light amber or tan, and can be painted, stained, and sanded. It cleans up with mineral spirits while wet, but must be scraped or sanded off the surface.

   from: Ask The Builder - Gorilla Glue:

   The white and yellow glues are excellent for wood and wood type products like paper and cardboard. These glues can penetrate well into the wood fibers to create a bond. This penetration capability can also be a nightmare if you intend to stain the wood.

   If you try to wipe off white or yellow glue that squeezes from a joint you can have real problems. First, the water from the rag opens the pores of the wood. Then you dilute the glue slightly so it can penetrate even deeper into the wood. Even though you get the glue off the surface, it penetrates into the grain. When it dries, this glue blocks any stain from penetrating into the wood. The result is a light area next to richly stained wood.

   from Woodezine - "A Quick Guide to Woodshop Glue"

   Hide glue accepts stain and wood dyes, which really helps when you're finishing a project.

   White Glue

   For decades, this has been a great option for hobbyists. Polyvinyl acetate, or PVA glue gives you a few more minutes of open time than (aliphatic resin) yellow glues, and a short (about one hour) clamping time, which makes it very easy to use. It cleans up with a damp rag, dries clear (although it doesn't like stain), and lasts for years on the shelf as long as the bottle is sealed.

   from InTheWoodshop.org - Making a Case for Hide Glue

   As I applied the stain she selected, light-coloured blotches appeared around the joinery where the yellow glue squeezed out during the original assembly. Unfortunately, this is one of the characteristics of PVA glues that woodworkers have to work around. Had I used hide glue, the blotches would never have showed.

   Carpenter’s glue is yellow because it was coloured. PVA can be coloured as a monomer but once cured, it becomes an inert, solid plastic and cannot be dyed or hold pigments. Hide glue can be stained and coloured so a finish cannot be ruined by a little squeeze out caught in the pores of the wood.

   from MsBuilder.com - Select proper glue for various projects

   Here is a helpful tip when working with wood that you plan to stain when the project is complete. When using yellow wood glue, do not wipe off excess glue from the joint if some oozes out during clamping. People often try this with a damp rag and it appears to be clean.

   When it dries, the pores, where the glue oozed out, are filled with glue and the stain will not take. By wiping the excess glue off with the damp rag, the glue gets diluted and flows even deeper into the pores. Often sanding the area will not even help to get to open pores.

   When excess glue oozes out during clamping, do not touch it. Just let it dry and scrape it off later. It will probably have soaked in very little and light sanding will allow the stain to take.

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1. 
   DougU | Oct 24, 2006 05:51am | #40

   Jerrald

   I've glued up as much oak as I care to and I've not noticed any of the problems that you mention, I'm sure that they exist but I dont seam to incounter them. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm just plain thorough enough in my glue ups.

   I'm very much aware that yellow glue will not take stain, I've had enough examples over time to validate that conclusion but that doesnt mean that its not completely avoidable either.

   I know a lot of good carps and shops that are turning out some pretty good work using yellow glue and are not experiencing the problems that you mention so I'm going to stick with what works for me, if you're having problems then by all means you should switch, after all, whatever it takes to put out a good product is what its about.

   I just moved back to Iowa from TX and I saw some pretty amazing stuff done down there with some of the crudest methods/tools imaginable so as the old saying goes, theres more then one way to skin a cat!

   Now on to something more important, how you liking that world series! I know that your team didnt make it and for that I'm really sorry(I'm sure the sarcasm isnt as apparant as it's intended) but for some of us that have there team in the game its pretty good huh!

   Doug

    

    

    

2. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 02:16am | #42

   [JJH] "Don't Use white glue, yellow glue, carpenters glue, elmer's glue, PVA, etc or epoxy. You will get a line and not to pick an arguement with the folks here who say you can wipe it off with a damp rag but that's a myth. It will seal the pores and in addition to the glue joint line you will get an banded area along the line that wont take stain or takes it poorly. Especially on something like oak. Maybe you can get away with that one something like pine but not on an open pore material like oak. You'd have to sand down 1/64 to 1/32 to get to open pore wood again."

   DougU - "This paragraph is foolish."

   What? Doug, I think you are being a a narrow minded stuck in the mud dinosaur and your exhibiting a lack of both progressive and pragmatic vision. How's that for a comeback?

   "I've glued using yellow and some white glue and I dont have the problem that you mention." I don't believe that for a second. You mean to tell all of us you've never seen a problem with stain taking over an open pore wood surface that has been sealed by PVA? I find that really hard to believe. Are you a professional or part-time woodworker? I been doing this long time now and I can tell plenty of stories of how it happens.

   "Maybe your just not putting enough effort into it!"

   You have just got to be kidding me. Come on Doug you can argue your point with being so facetious, insulting, and condescending. I will certainly put what my company and I do up against anything you and anyone you know can do. Any day. Any day Doug. Skill and craftsmanship isn't even really the core issue here. Yeah with a little extra time and care we can use white and yellow PVA glue in gluing up open pored wood that is scheduled to be stained and make it work but the point is there is a far better alternative binding material out there that eliminates the chance of there being any problems with staining and that material/method doesn't require the extra time and attention.

   "Why is it that when some people dont have any success with certain methods then those methods must be dismissed as not valid."

   I can certainly counter that condescending comment with "why is when people are presented with an alternative method that is easier more foolproof than the one they are using they still resist change and adopting the better method?". Geez there have been volumes of books written on the science and psychology of change (The psychology of change and understanding the whys and when's of people adopting new methodologies is one of my favorite topics to read about and study):

   The Dance of Change: The Challenges to Sustaining Momentum in Learning OrganizationsView Image by byPeter Senge

   Our Iceberg Is Melting: Changing and Succeeding Under Any ConditionsView Image by John Kotter

   Who Moved My Cheese? An Amazing Way to Deal with Change in Your Work and in Your Life by Spencer Johnson

   Leading Change: Overcoming the Ideology of Comfort and the Tyranny of CustomView Image by James O'Toole

   Deep Change: Discovering the Leader Within by Robert E. Quinn

   No just because using PVA to glue up open grained stained woodwork is not 100% correct, does not make it 100% wrong. It's just that there is a far better gView Imageluing material and method available. In the seventeenth century Newton developed what he felt was the Law of Gravity and for 400 years it's worked out fine explaining what we experience as gravity. But then in the twentieth century along come Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking and they show us that there is a lot more to gravity than Newton ever thought there was and their theories do a better job of explaining gravity in a wider array of conditions such as black holes. Does that make Newton wrong? Not really or at least not all the time.

   Twelve years ago or so industrial strength polyurethane glue was introduced to the US market and arguably is just as strong as PVAs, and is superior in it waterproof qualities, and accepts stain where PVA wont. Does that make PVA the wrong choice for stained woodwork? Not necessarily if you work with enough extra care and or protection of the work to eliminate any problems.

   But there is also another concept involved with the thinking that makes Polyurethane glue the better choice for open pore woodwork that needs to be glued.

   That concept is something from Lean Thinking and lean Manufacturing called Poka-yoke which comes from the Japanese phrase for Mistake-Proofing. When gluing up woodwork to be stained the use of polyurethane glue is a poka-yoke. It's a tool that mistake-proofs the process.

   From Mistake Proofing by Design: (the emphasisses are mine)

   The Japanese concept of Poka-Yoke (mistake-proofing) is oriented to finding and correcting problems as close to the source as possible because finding and correcting defects caused by errors costs more and more as a product or item flows through a process. Early work on poke-yoke by Japanese authorities like Shingo focused on mistake-proofing the process after a product has been designed and is in production. As time has passed, more emphasis has been placed on how the design of the product to avoid mistakes in production. Often the benefits of mistake-proofing not only help with production of the product, but can also contribute to correct user operation and maintenance of the product, and servicing of the product.

   There are six mistake-proofing principles or methods. These are listed in order of preference or precedence in fundamentally addressing mistakes:

   Elimination seeks to eliminate the possibility of error by redesigning the product or process so that the task or part is no longer necessary.

   Example: product simplification or part consolidation that avoids a part defect or assembly error in the first place.

   Replacement substitutes a more reliable process to improve consistency.

   Examples: use of robotics or automation that prevents a manual assembly error, automatic dispensers or applicators to insure the correct amount of a material such as an adhesive is applied.

   Prevention engineers the product or process so that it is impossible to make a mistake at all.

   Examples : Limit switches to assure a part correctly placed or fixtured before process is performed; part features that only allow assembly the correct way, unique connectors to avoid misconnecting wire harnesses or cables, part symmetry that avoids incorrect insertion.

   Facilitation employs techniques and combining steps to make work easier to perform.

   Examples: visual controls including color coding, marking or labeling parts to facilitate correct assembly; exaggerated asymmetry to facilitate correct orientation of parts; a staging tray that provides a visual control that all parts were assembled, locating features on parts.

   Detection involves identifying an error before further processing occurs so that the user can quickly correct the problem.

   Examples : sensors in the production process to identify when parts are incorrectly assembled, built-in self-test (BIST) capabilities in products.

   Mitigation seeks to minimize the effects of errors.

   Examples: fuses to prevent overloading circuits resulting from shorts; products designed with low-cost, simple rework procedures when an error is discovered; extra design margin or redundancy in products to compensate for the effects of errors.

   The use of polyurethane glue in gluing up stained woodwork satisfies 5 of the 6 poka-yoke error-proofing principles above:

   It eliminates the possibility of ooze, a gluing error, or sloppiness affecting the staining process that follows.

   It's a more consistently reliable process as far as stained woodwork is concerned.

   While just the use polyurethane doesn't make the process entirely foolproof it does go a long way.

   The are fewer steps and less time involved using polyurethane vs. PVA. No masking the joint or cleaning the wet ooze is required and sanding or scraping the hardened joint only needs to remove excess glue and not any wood that has had it pores sealed by the gluing process.

   Principle 5 doesn't apply

   Using polyurethane eliminates rework by eliminating the possibility of glue sealed grain being discovered only once the product has been stained.

   Doug we are very open minded in my company and if you have any reasoning as to why you think using Yellow or White Glue is superior to using polyurethane in regard to stained woodwork I'll listen to anything you have to say as long as you are polite about it.

   All that said we actually do use far more yellow glue than polyurethane by probably a 2:1 or 3:1 margin. We just won't use it for stained woodwork. if a guy comes here to BT and asks about how to cut a sheet of 4x8 3/4" plywood in half am I wrong if I tell him to use a hand saw? It very certainly can be cut using a hand saw but is that the best method available?

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1. 
   DougU | Oct 25, 2006 05:45am | #49

   Jerrald

   Your kidding me, right?

   Get over yourself Jerrald, your not the end all to fine woodworking and if I get the same results using a different method then doesnt that make both of us right instead of just you? Or is it really that important that you be the only one that knows how to do it properly and those of us that dont agree are less then you.

   Doug

    

    

    

    

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 06:18am | #50

   DougU

   "Jerrald, Your kidding me, right?"

   No, I'm not kidding Doug. But the way I see it you can't take any criticism and/or aren't open to learning anything new unless you discover it on your own. You wrote your nice liitle post to Fonzie ("Get a damp rag and wipe excess glue off right away, some disagree with this method but if you dont saturate the area with water you'll be OK.") recommending your standard glue procedure and then when I came along and wrote my reply "Don't Use white glue, yellow glue, carpenters glue, elmer's glue, PVA, etc or epoxy." You took umbrage and decided to call me "foolish", said that my crew and I "must not be putting enough effort into [our] work". Doug if you disagree you don't need to be an insulting a$$hole. Disagree and present your evidence. We're open minded here. Convince me (us) your method is the better way to go without the insults. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my post.

   "Or is it really that important that you be the only one that knows how to do it properly and those of us that dont agree are less then you."

   I never said that or anything like that! You put that on yourself in the face of criticism that recommended a method different than the one you choose to use.

   "I've glued up as much oak as I care to and I've not noticed any of the problems that you mention, I'm sure that they exist but I dont seam to incounter them. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm just plain thorough enough in my glue ups."

   It seems to me that a comment like that on your part put you above everyone else here who has ever experienced the problem with glue squeeze out affecting the staining process. I bet we all wish we could be as "thorough" and as talented as you are. Well, maybe someday I can hope to be as talented a woodworker as you are.

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2. 
   DougU | Oct 25, 2006 06:45am | #51

   Jerrald

   You can call me all the names in the world and I aint gonna bite!

   I thought your remarks about gluing up were foolish and said so, nothing more then that, if you chose to make more out of it then by all means have at it.

   Doug if you disagree you don't need to be an insulting a$$hole.

   Thats several times now that you've called me a name so I assume your out of amunition for your argument?

   Go have another beer and find someone else to bait, it aint gonna happen here.

   Doug

   Go Cards, one more win closer to a World series title.

3. 
   DougU | Oct 25, 2006 06:55am | #52

   One more comment that I just noticed,

   "I've glued up as much oak as I care to and I've not noticed any of the problems that you mention, I'm sure that they exist but I dont seam to incounter them. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm just plain thorough enough in my glue ups."

   It seems to me that a comment like that on your part put you above everyone else here who has ever experienced the problem with glue squeeze out affecting the staining process. I bet we all wish we could be as "thorough" and as talented as you are. Well, maybe someday I can hope to be as talented a woodworker as you are.

   Talk about "that ones on you"

   Dont make more out of my statement then what is typed. For all you or anybody else knows I could be refering to gluing up oak two times!

   I didnt say that I've glued up more oak then anybody else or that I have more experience doing it then anybody else, I mearly said that I have not experienced the problems that you say that you have, thats all Jerrald, why make more out of the statement then that?

   I'm sorry that I dont have the problem gluing up oak that you do, I dont know what I should do about that, maybe some penance but I'm not real sure how much would be appropriate.

   Why not drop this Jerrald, you are not going to convince me that I'm doing it wrong and I know that I couldnt care less if I convince you so now what?

   Doug

4. 
   IdahoDon | Oct 27, 2006 04:03am | #54

   Jerrald, I can sort of see the reason you're outspoken about defining a more fool-proof method for glue ups.  I get the impression that you're talking in terms of a rule of thumb for your crew, which we all know can be quite a task for any crew.

   I do find it commendable that any crew that would have problems with getting yellow glue residue off would not have problems with polyurethane glue drips and related damage.  That stuff seems to get everywhere.

   We did have one finish carpenter that used polyurethane for everything and it drove us nuts since he had to spend so much time allowing for the long set.

   Now that the weather is getting colder we'll be using poly glue in more situations that might be too cold for yellow glue, but we'd prefer not to.

     

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

5. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 27, 2006 05:25am | #57

   IdahoDon - "Jerrald, I can sort of see the reason you're outspoken about defining a more fool-proof method for glue ups. I get the impression that you're talking in terms of a rule of thumb for your crew, which we all know can be quite a task for any crew."

   Yeah i would say that is really what we are doing. As a company you design production systems that work and then tune them up with rules to eliminate errors . That's part of Lean Thinking as well as Six Sigma/TQM. You need to design systems and procedures that work no matter who skill level wise is doing the process.

   "I do find it commendable that any crew that would have problems with getting yellow glue residue off would not have problems with polyurethane glue drips and related damage. That stuff seems to get everywhere."

   It does do that and it is a mess but yellow still drips and makes a mess too although relatively maybe not quite as much or as nasty.

   "We did have one finish carpenter that used polyurethane for everything and it drove us nuts since he had to spend so much time allowing for the long set."

   While it is longer set than yellow I wouldn't describe it as unreasonably long.

   "Now that the weather is getting colder we'll be using poly glue in more situations that might be too cold for yellow glue, but we'd prefer not to."

   I personally have been doing a lot of the epoxy and polyester resin work for our client projects these past few months (not as glue but as part of some FRP fiber glassing operations). During the summer I was probably wasting a couple of hundred dollars a week in epoxy and poly resin that was going off faster than I wanted it too. Given the cooler weather this past month I haven't wasted a drop.

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6. 
   Fonzie | Oct 27, 2006 05:24am | #56

   Jerrald,Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to solve what has been a long standing unsolved problem for me. I have been doing this work for 41 years now and you have gotten me over the gluing part of stain anxiety. This oak curved stair glue - up went the best, easiest ever. We have gone on to apply this new principle to reworking the cabinets - glue/stain , no worry. In fact there was a little void in spots to be filled in the cabinet face rework, but we could proceed with no worry, no masking, no cleanup.The second attachment shows a closeup of the Gorilla glued joint.

7. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 27, 2006 05:32am | #58

   Nice clean work.How did you go about making the curved cap to the parapet and the curved rail on top of that? They look like they are solid stock and not glue ups.

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8. 
   Fonzie | Oct 27, 2006 03:29pm | #59

   Jerrald,Sorry I can't take credit for that - it was the home of a carpenter in the late 50's. He and his family lived in the basement until he could afford building the house above. He and his friends worked on the house above when they could (I have heard the stories from the old building inspector who was one of them). The stairway gave him a lot of trouble I think. Thanks to your counsel it didn't give us any. The railing is laminated birch. We only made patterns and overlayed the treads/risers with oak.

9. 
   Sphere | Oct 27, 2006 05:28pm | #60

   Take this with a grain of salt.

   You are correct and also wrong, PU glues are the newest rage, and the lowly hide glues still have a purpose, as do the aliphatic resins.

   Your forward chest thumping is mis- aligned, there are instances where the PU is a better choice, but , but..the proven track record of Aliphatic resins makes you sound like a purveyour or salesman for the product you are endorsing.

   I have laminated thousands of musical instruments with aliphatic resins, yes..thousands. All with mahog core stock @ 5/4 with everything from Koa to soft maple, burly walnut, and Morado

   While some of these species are more pourus than the red oak that we are discussing I have to comment on your reasoning.

   When mating dis-similar species, OR using a glue line as a design factor ( visual and appealing) your prescription won't hold water.

   When I carve a bass neck, I use the lamanations as a guide to control my whittleing away, PU glue is "ghosty", I don't get the same control..but that is me.

   I feel that you have espoused a mindset that has offended some that are of a genre that is not familiar to you.

   With that, I'd say..it works for you? Have at it, but don't go telling me I don't know the benefits, and or have problems w/ open pore wood assembly and the basic rules of usage.

   FYI poly wont take wb stain either. I Do have some that will, but you better be prepared to absorb Diabasic Ether, and Eg. (Ethylene Glycol) in a matrix of colorants, and emulsifiers for your application enjoyment.

   Silica gel? glad ya asked.It reeacts with the EB and yup, the Methylene Chloride ( stripper) in a caustic solution that reacts with the present resins of the co=polymner inherent in the yellow type adhesives..so this whole Idea of disparity could be dispelled quite easily if the " stain" is of compatilbe nature. it is called "burn in".

   Make a hot stain and get over it, any thing can be burnt into with the proper vehicle.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Shooting rubber bands at the Moon

10. 
    JerraldHayes | Oct 27, 2006 07:32pm | #61

    Sphere - "You are correct and also wrong, PU glues are the newest rage, and the lowly hide glues still have a purpose, as do the aliphatic resins."

    Let me make this perfectly clear and you might want to re-read what I've written. I never ever have said that hide glue and aliphatic resin glue (and their kin PVAs)(as well as epoxy, cyanoacrylates, plastic resin, etc etc.) don't have their place and purpose. Fonzies question was:

    "What procedure works best to keep the glue from sealing the surface where the oak is joined, thus making a light spot? We are thinking about masking with blue tape right up to the joint."

    The answer to that question, that solves the problem of sealing the grain not allowing glue penetration, is to use polyurethane glue.

    "Your forward chest thumping is mis- aligned, there are instances where the PU is a better choice, but , but..the proven track record of Aliphatic resins makes you sound like a purveyour or salesman for the product you are endorsing."

    What you call "chest thumping" I call presenting the supporting evidence. Go back and read what I've written. No where have I said Polyurethane is the end all answer to everything. In fact it seems to me that the yellow glue partisans 9and one in particular) find that yellow/aliphatic/PVA glue is the answer to every gluing problem. It isn't and in some cases (staining woodwork) it can even create problems.

    "When mating dis-similar species, OR using a glue line as a design factor ( visual and appealing) your prescription won't hold water.

    When I carve a bass neck, I use the lamanations as a guide to control my whittleing away, PU glue is "ghosty", I don't get the same control..but that is me."

    What are you talking about? I have no idea what you are referring too. And not wanting to miss the chance to make a lighter moment here you are correct that "[my] prescription won't hold water." polyurethane is waterproof. But really I have no idea of what you are talking about with those sentences. Polyurethane is "ghostly"? What does that mean? You "don't get the same control"? Control of what?

    "I feel that you have espoused a mindset that has offended some that are of a genre that is not familiar to you."

    Hey if I'm an iconoclast so be it. But I think the people are taking offense because after they were kind enough and generous enough to give their advice to the original poster Fonzie some one else (yours truly) then came along and then in their minds stomped on their advice. No one ever likes an iconoclast. I am plenty familiar with people and groups that are set in their ways and resistant to change and as I also mentioned earlier I enjoy reading about and studying the roots of that thinking and behavior.

    "With that, I'd say..it works for you? Have at it, but don't go telling me I don't know the benefits, and or have problems w/ open pore wood assembly and the basic rules of usage."

    Get over it Sphere. With regard to you post (msg#79869.23) I said where I agreed and where I disagreed. It up to the original poster and anyone else to take the advice and evidence presented here and make their own judgment as to what course they want to follow. But I will reiterate that I strongly disagree with your comment at that time:

    "I seriously doubt that ANY glue will impede your desired results unless you go out of your way to smear it all over, use the amount that limits squeeze out, let it rubber up, and scrape it off...."

    It doesn't take much to smear the glue and the effects aren't even noticeable until you move on into the staining process. I think like a business man and the idea in process design is to eliminate errors or prevent errors at the earliest opportunity so as to avoid the loss of time and cost of rework and the use of polyurethane glue (and hide glue is good too) in stained woodwork applications is a better process. It's a poka-yoke. The problem described in all those other posts I found (msg#79869.47, msg#79869.48, & msg#79869.49, ) are solved by the use of polyurethane glue.

    And regardless even if yellow glue was another good alternate method your statement that "I seriously doubt that ANY glue will impede your desired results..." is outright wrong. While yellow glue isn't that bad there are glues that are very definitely really poor if not really bad choices.

    (And side note I thought you might find interesting, when I was in college one summer I worked on the installation assembly and finishing of what was were were told at that time was the world's largest movable organ at SUNY Purchase. The hide glue used was cooked fresh each day. I spent my summer cooking glue from time to time and rubbing tung oil into all the woodwork.)

    And I'll emphasize this one last time in case you still don't get what I've been saying and want to think I work for the Polyurethane Glue Council. The use of polyurethane glue solves most of the problems associated the sealing of grain in stained woodwork applications. That said however it is not a panacea.

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11. 
    Sphere | Oct 27, 2006 07:56pm | #62

    I'll leave it at that.

    You and I are NOT going to agree. and I have no interest at this time to expound upon what I have experienced, and Dougs take on the qualities/pitfalls of the use of Aliphatic resins.

    You win, I quit.

    BTW, Mayonaisse will remove the PU glue from your single eagle salute.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Shooting rubber bands at the Moon

12. 
    JerraldHayes | Oct 27, 2006 08:29pm | #63

    Sphere, I'm trying hard to figure out what you're talking about. Grow up for chrissakes.

    I don't understand what you are talking about .

    What are you talking about? I have no idea what you are referring too. And not wanting to miss the chance to make a lighter moment here you are correct that "[my] prescription won't hold water." polyurethane is waterproof. But really I have no idea of what you are talking about with those sentences. Polyurethane is "ghostly"? What does that mean? You "don't get the same control"? Control of what?

    I'm willing to listen to you or anyone elses arguements but you need to clearly articulate what you're saying.

    It's only a guess but were you trying to say that there were other "workabiltiy" factors that make you prefer (and/or recommend) yellow/aliphatic/PVA glues in staining applications? Is that what you are saying?

    And "You and I are NOT going to agree." Agree on what? Again.... I never ever have said that hide glue and aliphatic resin glue (and their kin PVAs)(as well as epoxy, cyanoacrylates, plastic resin, etc etc.) don't have their place and purpose. And I don't know whether I've said it this precisely or not but with enough care and preparation you can use yellow/aliphatic/PVA glues in staining applications. Does that make you happy? I'm just saying that there is better more foolproof method, that solves the problems all those people described, now available to woodworkers today. So since you say "You and I are NOT going to agree." you're basically saying you think I am full of $hit then huh?

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13. 
    Sphere | Oct 28, 2006 01:45am | #64

    No you are not full of anything. I just can't grasp the love affair with Poly glues. To each his own.

     

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Shooting rubber bands at the Moon

14. 
    JerraldHayes | Oct 28, 2006 02:43am | #65

    I give up. You still don't get it and/or you obviously didn't read or comprehend what I've written.

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15. 
    Sphere | Oct 28, 2006 02:54am | #66

    I understand you just fine Jerrald. I do not have a problem with glue and staining, I have been doing this for 20 some years, before PU glue was even available. I loved my first bottle of Gorilla glue, even tho' it got rock hard before I could use it all up.

    What I am saying to you is that YOUR practice of using it is FINE if that is what you want to use, BUT I still prefer to NOT use it when I do not HAVE to.  The majority of my work lately has been either PL premium or TB2 , that is what I find best for me, and now to add even more fuel to this, I very often either hand plane or scrape my work prior to finish sanding after grain raising, so glue in open pores is NEVER an issue for me,never.

    I'll shut up, I respect you and your work, I just can't always know when to keep my trap shut, but your comments to Doug, who I also feel a kinship with, was about as out of line as I have ever read from you.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Shooting rubber bands at the Moon

16. 
    JerraldHayes | Oct 28, 2006 03:57am | #67

    And I prefer to not use it (polyurethane glue) when I don't have to too! I hate the mess and I hate having to wear gloves. But still regardless of that is solves a frikken problem with glue sealing the wood in stained work. Where the bloody heck do you come off thinking I have some kind of "love affair with Poly glues" and I talk like "like a purveyour or salesman for the product". That's ridiculous. If I do have a love affair my guys would tell you it's with West Systems Epoxies which I have been using for ages or maybe now Fastcap’s 2P-10 which I only discovered within the last year. We haven't gotten into the hot polyurethanes yet but hope to look at them soon too.

    And I still don't know what you meant by:

    "When mating dis-similar species, OR using a glue line as a design factor ( visual and appealing) your prescription won't hold water.

    When I carve a bass neck, I use the lamanations as a guide to control my whittleing away, PU glue is "ghosty", I don't get the same control..but that is me."

    I still don't know what "ghostly" and a lack of "control" mean.

    "What I am saying to you is that YOUR practice of using it is FINE if that is what you want to use, BUT I still prefer to NOT use it when I do not HAVE to. The majority of my work lately has been either PL premium or TB2 , that is what I find best for me, and now to add even more fuel to this, I very often either hand plane or scrape my work prior to finish sanding after grain raising, so glue in open pores is NEVER an issue for me,never."

    That fine. And that's fine for you but Fonzie and all those other people I pointed with posts that had a problem (msg#79869.47, msg#79869.48, & msg#79869.49, ) polyurethane will solve their problem! They don't work the same way you do! So what do you want to do? Deny them something that will work for them just because you don't like the messenger?

    "I'll shut up, I respect you and your work, I just can't always know when to keep my trap shut, but your comments to Doug, who I also feel a kinship with, was about as out of line as I have ever read from you."

    Ya know I'm not looking for anyone to ever shut up. I enjoy and usually learn things from the people I disagree with in a good debate. But I wasn't discourteous to Doug until after he was discourteous and insulted me (for writing something "foolish") and my crew with his comments about us "not putting enough effort into it!" What bull$hit. His feeling were hurt because he felt I stomped on what he said. And now your pissed because you think I'm stomping on your friend. Rather than deciding who is right or wrong about a technique based on whether we are friends and buddies with the person doesn't fly with me. I prefer to look at and evaluate the technique, method, or material based on its intrinsic merits and the empirical data, not who am I friends and buddies with.

    I'm sorry you guys are so hurt. But the polyurethane solves a problem that a lot of people face when working with stained woodworking applications.

     

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17. 
    MisterT | Oct 28, 2006 05:37pm | #68

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends

    Why can't we be friends

    why can't we be friends 

     

     

     

     

    WARNING!!!

    The FCC has determined the this post may contain unsafe levels of SARCASM!!!!

    If you are sensitive or become offended when you are shown to be WRONG!!!!

    You should make a complaint to our hotline:

    1-800-BITE-ME

     

18. 
    DougU | Oct 29, 2006 06:25am | #69

    Jerrald

    But I wasn't discourteous to Doug until after he was discourteous and insulted me (for writing something "foolish") and my crew with his comments about us "not putting enough effort into it!" What bull$hit. His feeling were hurt because he felt I stomped on what he said

    BUT; whats all this crap about me being discourteous to you? I was not, maybe I was being my sarcastic self but discourteous I wasnt. Calling something "foolish" is hardly an insult, certainly wasnt meant as one. Maybe my choice of words wasnt suitable for your eyes but none-the-less it was not intended to be. I'm probably prone to talk on this site like I do at the work site, and that means anything goes and "dont bring your feelings to work cause thier gonna get steped on".

    Your the one that started the name calling and acting like a frigin baby so get over the "mom, he started it" shid.

    I'll tell ya what, seeings how I'm "resistant to change" as you suggested, I'll give your method a try, SERIOUSLY, give me the name/brand of glue that you think I should use and I'll go in the shop and do a comparative glue up, your method vs. mine. If I like it I may incorporate it, dont know seeings how my method works for me I'm not sure why I should change but......

    Oh, BTW, you dont have the power to hurt my feelings, dont flatter yourself. I got guys trying to do it all day long and they cant get it done so it's doubtful that you can in one post! :)

    Doug

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Oct 25, 2006 11:35am | #53

   Jerrald,

   Thanks for bringing up the use of polyurehtane glue.  I have to admit I was completely unaware of its beneficial properties when staining, and I'll be sure to try it out soon.

   With that said, I have a question from one of your posts:

   "...we actually do use far more yellow glue than polyurethane by probably a 2:1 or 3:1 margin. We just won't use it for stained woodwork...."

   I'm just curious why you use the yellow glue for (I'm assuming) paint grade work.  Why not just use the polyurethane glue for ALL your work?  Is it cheaper, or is there a benefit to using yellow glue that I'm missing here?

   Thanks in advance for the reply.

    

   Edited 10/25/2006 4:36 am ET by Ragnar17

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 27, 2006 05:07am | #55

   Ragnar17 - "Thanks for bringing up the use of polyurehtane glue. I have to admit I was completely unaware of its beneficial properties when staining, and I'll be sure to try it out soon."

   Well that doesn't mean there aren't some drawbacks to it too.

   I'm just curious why you use the yellow glue for (I'm assuming) paint grade work. Why not just use the polyurethane glue for ALL your work? Is it cheaper, or is there a benefit to using yellow glue that I'm missing here?

   Thanks in advance for the reply.

   Well to tell you the truth that observation is really just anecdotal. I just see us buying more gallons of yellow glue than we do quarts of polyurethane. But then again the polyurethane if properly applied will go further than the same amount of yellow.

   As for why we still use so much yellow? Well answering anecdotally again I think it's probably because:

   Old work habits die hard. Even with a group of guys that think as progressively as we do the old habits still die hard.

   Yellow is cleaner on your hands. With polyurethane you have to wear gloves or you will get it on you and then you'll end up with these ugly black stains on your hands. If you going out for a night to the theatre with your girl friend and her friends you don't want to have to explain when you shake her friends hands or sit down to dinner that yes you did wash your hands but those black stains are really from polyurethane glue.

   While the polyurethane glue expands to fill gaps it is not as strong when it does so if you don't have a perfectly gap free joint that you can keep tight and snug with tape, straps, or clamps you'll use yellow glue.

   As for the relative cost difference I'll have to say I honestly have no idea whether one is more cost effective than the other in application coverage. However looking at the bigger picture we feel polyurethane is probably more cost effective in staining applications because you eliminate a few stages in the process (masking and wiping clean the joints) and it certainly helps us avoid the cost of rework which is the most damaging cost.

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6. 
   IdahoDon | Oct 11, 2006 08:58am | #6

   I use oak for a large number of projects from builtins to scratch-built stairs and can attest without hesitation that wiping carpenters glue off while wet does indeed work well if done right, but will leave a glue line if done hap-hazardly.

   At least around here the humidity is often so low that glue sets up quickly thus making it important to wipe it off right away--and I mean right away.  If clamping is taking a good deal of time I might wipe the assembled joint with a damp cloth to prevent the squeezed out glue from starting to set.  Wiping the area to be joined with a damp cloth prior to glue up can also add a few minutes of valuable cleanup time.

   Oak has grain that is quite deep so a thin bristled nylon or brass brush (think heavy duty toothbrush) is invaluable to loosen the glue that has made it into the pores of the wood.

   I keep a few rags and the tooth brush in a 1gal bucket of clean water right next to the glue up area. I'll wipe off all traces of glue with a fairly wet cloth, quickly scrub the joint with the brush, and rewipe with a clean rag.  Without the brush and second cleaning I'd be inclined to agree with Harold since it seems to make or break the results.

   After 100s of glue up this is my method of choice since a few minutes of scrubbing with a toothbrush is more fun than sanding oak.

   Cheers

7. 
   Danno | Oct 11, 2006 02:48pm | #7

   I believe I've seen that done--using blue tape to keep glue off. I don't see a probelm with that. I've also heard that wiping with damp rags is bad for the reasons mentioned by another poster--seals pores, etc.. You might try your question at the "Knots" woodworkers forum--those guys should have some good answers.

8. 
   andy_engel | Oct 11, 2006 03:02pm | #8

   Use hide glue. It takes stain quite well, is actually edible, and makes joints that are stronger than the wood. The best is the solid stuff you melt in a pot, but that stinks and is a pain to use. Just get Franklin's liquid hide glue.

   Hide glue also offers up the advantage of being a recycled product. Recycled from dead horses, but recycled nonetheless.

   Andy

   "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein

   "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

1. 
   MisterT | Oct 13, 2006 01:14pm | #14

   (in a deep horsey voice)

   Heyyyy Wiiillllllbuuuurrrrrrrr......

   You shouldn't be usin' Horrrrrssseeesss forrrr wooooodwwwooooorrkkkk!!!

   ppppppppppppp......(horse sound)#$&%(*$#

   Please excuse our mess....

   Tagline under reconstruction...

    

1. 
   andy_engel | Oct 13, 2006 02:39pm | #16

   Having as a kid been bitten by a horse, I get some satisfaction using hide glue. How do ya like them apples, you carniverous nag?!

   Of course, hide glue can be made from many collagens, so there's no guarantee that you're gluing with Secretariat.Andy

   "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein

   "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

1. 
   MisterT | Oct 13, 2006 07:50pm | #20

   Cat glue!!!???

   now there's a marketing angle that's time has come!!!!#$&%(*$#

   Please excuse our mess....

   Tagline under reconstruction...

    

1. 
   MarkH | Oct 13, 2006 09:14pm | #21

   Have you tried Sumo glue yet?

   Faster and stronger than Gorilla they say.

2. 
   MisterT | Oct 13, 2006 11:49pm | #23

   is that how they get them big arse diapers to stay up???

    

    #$&%(*$#

   Please excuse our mess....

   Tagline under reconstruction...

    

3. 
   MarkH | Oct 14, 2006 03:08am | #24

   Might be, but I'm NOT going there.

4. 
   nailbanger | Oct 16, 2006 11:42pm | #35

   Cat Glue!?!?!?

   Now I'd buy that "just because..."

   BILL

9. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 11, 2006 04:12pm | #9

   And Hide Glue too as Andy Engel just mentioned works too. But for Gods sake no PVA and wiping it off with a rag!

   I find myself rolling my eye's back in my head in disbelief reading all these folks who say you can wipe PVA off of open grained wood and not get a line or smear.

   We've got a bunch of glue ups were doing next week so I'll have my guys do some sample their way and we can compare them then.

   Also one of the points in doing the job right and doing a job lean is to elieminate unesseary steps. Using Polyurethane Glue there is no blue tape, no bucket of clean water and scrubbing with heavy duty tooth brushes (which in my estimation will help drive the wet glue down into the pores not clean it out). With Polyurethane you simply wait for the glue to set, and scrape off the ooze.

   ---

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1. 
   merlvern | Oct 11, 2006 04:23pm | #10

   any chance we can see pix of your "test"be really helpful....thanks

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 11, 2006 05:18pm | #11

   That's the idea behind doing the "test".

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2. 
   Fonzie | Oct 13, 2006 03:32pm | #17

   Jerrald,We used Gorilla glue for the first time (for this type of project) and have had the best gluing experience ever. I have had the white glue experience and was dreading the possible resulting white streak. I have stain anxiety.This has really gone good. The first day we only had a couple ready and used the blue tape, then I read your post again and noticed there was no need for the tape (I thought about that the next day when I was picking some blue specks out of the joint.We have them all glued and are sanding and will stain today - thanks!

1. 
   Sancho | Oct 13, 2006 04:52pm | #18

   great info I always used the  titebond with the wet rag method..now Im going to have to rethink my process....  

                

   View Image    Official Jeff Buck Memorial Tagline "

3. 
   IdahoDon | Oct 14, 2006 04:22am | #25

   ..no bucket of clean water and scrubbing with heavy duty tooth brushes (which in my estimation will help drive the wet glue down into the pores not clean it out).

   Jerrald, you don't have to like the idea, or even try it or admit that it works for others if done right.  It's simply the method choice for us on scratch built oak stairs, ballatrades, handrails, cabinets, trim, furniture-grade builtins and the mission coffee table I'm resting my feet on as we speak.  To say it can't work because you aren't detail oriented enough to ensure all the glue is actually wiped off is silly.

     

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

1. 
   DougU | Oct 16, 2006 04:41am | #29

   Don

   I too wash off the excess/squeze out glue and I dont have any problems with stain taking.

   I think some people think their way is the only way something can be done and there isnt any way on Gods green earth that it can be done any other way.

   I've got plenty of proof to back my claim.

   Doug

4. 
   Fonzie | Oct 14, 2006 04:47am | #26

   Stained today (oil base Zar, Salem Maple) and it went great! Yesterday we finished gluing (no blue tape), scraped off the ooze in about 3 hr. This solves a long standing problem. True I have had succes before wiping carpenter's glue off, but it was always a question what was going to happen when the stain went on. One guy mentioned the way to tell that in advance was wipe down with mineral spirits - I didn't know that.The foaming aspect appears to be an advantage with the open grain oak - helps fill the inevitable flip out near the joint.I have had great shelf life with the Gorilla glue - about 3 years in Illinois winter/summer. Thanks again to all for the advice.

1. 
   Hazlett | Oct 14, 2006 02:20pm | #27

    fonzie,

    I have been doing as Jerrald suggests with the gorrilla glue for a couple of years---and his method works great.

    another thing you can do----depending on the eventual stain/finish

   Pre-fit everthing---then put a light coat of boiled linseed oil on your parts before glue up----that is---the parts you DON'T want glue on.( I usually use 50/50 BLO & mineral spirits)------ glues like titebond don't stick to the BLO--------so make sure you don't get any blo on mortice/tenons or other joints

   Never had much success with blue tape/glue-ups----somehow I always end up gluing the tape down to the wood! LOL

   Stephen

10. 
    MisterT | Oct 13, 2006 01:08pm | #12

    use Gorilla glue and you wont have this problem...

    stronger joints

    joint filling

    sandable

    stainable

    wear gloves

    and dont wipe the bottle with a damp rag!!!

    #$&%(*$#

    Please excuse our mess....

    Tagline under reconstruction...

     

1. 
   Danno | Oct 13, 2006 02:20pm | #15

   Although polyurethane glue will expand and fill cracks or gaps, that will not make a strong joint if used to do that (sort of like filling it with week foam insulation). If you need to fill gaps, epoxy is probably your best bet.

11. 
    tfarwell | Oct 13, 2006 05:58pm | #19

    I just did a large set of cabinet frames. I put a double coat of stain on all the parts before gluing and assembling and used poly glue - no problems.

     

1. 
   Sphere | Oct 13, 2006 10:14pm | #22

   Let it set and scrape method here. I have been in Pipeorgan construction, guitars and general furniture construction for many years.

   Andy's interjection of hide glue is well said, it also is reversable, which the polys are NOT. I disagree with the bottled version, it is not the same formulation as melt your own, they both can go bad stinky, but the plasticisers in the bottled will still inhibit stain penetration..and speaking of...you never said what type of stain you propose to use. That will be a factor.

   I seriously doubt that ANY glue will impede your desired results unless you go out of your way to smear it all over, use the amount that limits squeeze out, let it rubber up, and scrape it off....

   I'd use TiteBond 2 on red oak, it is pourus enuff to grab well on edge grain joints and as long as you don't flud it on heavy ( Like a biscut joint that exudes excess) yer fine to scrape the squeeze out after it sits about an hour.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   " If ya plan to face tomorrow, do it soon"

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 24, 2006 03:50am | #39

   Sphere - "I'd use TiteBond 2 on red oak, it is pourus enuff to grab well on edge grain joints and as long as you don't flud it on heavy ( Like a biscut joint that exudes excess) yer fine to scrape the squeeze out after it sits about an hour."

   I don't know about that Duane. Titebond sure is strong enough and red (or white) oak sure is pourus enough but Titebond like other PVAs will seal the pores in a wood like oak and show up at the very least as a witness line and worse as band or ribbon of wood that isn't taking the stain. That's why we use the polyurethane glues.

   And never use TitebondII on cherry. There is something in TitebondII that reacts with the cherry and gives you a magin marker type red witness line. I learned that one the hard expensive way. (The other Titebond products are supposedly okay though with cherry although we've never actually tested them).

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1. 
   andy_engel | Oct 24, 2006 05:53am | #41

   Jerrald, I've also had good success with plastic resin glue. Because it's mixed as needed, it's viscosity can be be adjusted so that it doesn't flow everywhere. It doesn't absorb stain, but it's brown in color. And if you need a glue that doesn't creep in time, plastic resin glue is hard to beat. I mainly use it on door glue-ups, but there's no reason it can't see more widespread use. The main disadvantage is the long clamp time - 12 hours or so.Andy

   "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein

   "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 02:32am | #43

   Andy_Engel - " Jerrald, I've also had good success with plastic resin glue...."

   I'll have to test that out too. My late dad used to use plastic resin glue all the time (Weldwood) and I recall lots and lots of clamps. I think he used to use it with his veneer work too if I recall correctly.

   I have a client who is building these free-form tree houses that have frames that are 1 x4 pieces of steam bent white oak that are then laminated together to make up a 4 x 6 curve section and he's using resorcinol. We surfaced the pieces for him after he glued them together and what I noticed was the excess resorcinol ooze did a number on our planner and dulled the blades in no time and there was a very noticeable dark glue line although I think that was intended on his part. He wanted the pieces to look laminated.

   I pulled some red and white oak scraps out right at the end of the day so hopefully I get to running the test samples tomorrow.

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2. 
   IdahoDon | Oct 25, 2006 04:13am | #44

   Nasty glue line in oak?  This table is even a water-base stain so it should really show up.

   View Image

   Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

   Edited 10/24/2006 9:14 pm ET by IdahoDon

   Edited 10/24/2006 9:15 pm ET by IdahoDon

3. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 04:46am | #45

   No Don I don't see a glue line but I also barely see the joint too. Nice job And if you read what I've written I'm not saying it can't be done but that there is a better more fool proof method and gluing material out there.Or is it your point altogether that any talk that PVA seals the grain and makes staining difficult is just a myth? Four years ago we were replacing stairs and wood work in a fire damaged estate house and my foreman on the job had a new guy we were trying out glue up three stair landings and a bunch of winders and he used yellow glue to do the job. When Mike caught him he told him he had to get all the glue ooze off because it would affect the stain so he wiped it off and then sanded the surfaces when the pieces had set and dried. Then one Friday around midday I got a call from our finisher that there we stripes on several of the stairs where the stain wouldn't take. I went down later that afternoon and then spent my friday night sanding and scraping the stairs to get any and all remnants of glue off of those pieces and then had to call our finisher back again to stain those pieces again so maybe that was just something I was imagining.On another job years ago we were fabricating oak drawers for several closet built-ins and whoever did the assembly glued in the oak ply bottoms with white or yellow glue and then wiped up any ooze with a wet rag. When the drawers were stained on virtually every drawer there was a band where the drawer bottom met the drawer sides where the stain wouldn't take. It took one of my guys a day to sand the corners well enough so that the stain would take. Yeah I know they were only closet built-in drawers and we probably could have gotten away with them but that's not our style. But then again maybe we were just imagining that too.In both cases had polyurethane glue been used the removal of any glue ooze would had been much much easier and less time consuming and any glue that was missed would have accepted the stain.Also I'll ask the same question of you that I put to Doug. Are you saying that the use PVA is superior to that of Polyurethane with open pored wood in a staining application? Or are you just defening your method of work in the face of an alternate and better method presented here?

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4. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 05:05am | #46

   And searching through the old posts on this site I found this description regarding glue and staining problems (the emphasisses are mine):

   What's the deal with staining and glu...

   From: Ben_Carnes 10/23/1999 10:02 am

   Ok, after building cabinets off and on for the last twenty years it still gives me fits trying to stain cabinets. We work like dogs (wait a minute, have you EVER had a dog that did a lick of work?) to get the gluejoints wiped clean, and we still get a cloud that won't take stain.

   This last project we built a bunch of oak cabinets and shelving that we matched to some furniture...very dark....and the hassles we had in the corners of the cabinets were unbelievable... I had told the guys to make absolutely sure we got all the glue off, and even

   b I

   was pretty sure we were, but when the stain went on, the truth came out.....

   We generally use a yellow glue, whatever brand is at the supplier, I think they all have the same properties.

   Any help would be appreciated...

   -Ben

   I guess he was imagining the problem too?

   I'm sorry guys but polyurethane glue is the poka-yoke which solves that problem.

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5. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 05:29am | #47

   And more recently:

   glue removal

   From: evergreerepair 12/18/2005 8:29 pm

   what do the resident experts at "BREAKTIME" recomend as the best way to remove excess wood glue from from a clamped up joint. I wipe the squeeze out right away with a damp rag but I still get a poor penetration when I stain the wood. any ideas?

   No one in that thread however ever mentioned using polyurethane glue to this guy.

   View Image

6. 
   JerraldHayes | Oct 25, 2006 05:40am | #48

   And from over on Knots:

   HELP WITH GLUE/STAIN PROBLEM

   From: Jim_Godron 1/4/2000 9:13 pm

   I just started finishing a mahagony cabinet that I made and I'm having problems with the stain not being absorbed on spots where glue was located. I was careful to wipe off glue spots with a damp rag as they occured but after staining I noticed that there were spots where the stain didn't take. These spots are located where the glue was cleaned off. The piece was completely sanded prior to the staining and the spots were not visable until the stain was applied. Is there anything that I can do to treat these spots, some of them are located in areas that would be really difficult to re-sand? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

   And:

   Yellow glue problems

   From: John 3/30/2003 9:00 am

   I work with alot of pine and have never been able to solve this problem. Stain will not penertrae an spot that has been wiped clean from a yellow glue squeeze out. How do I solve this problem?

    

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   Edited 10/24/2006 10:45 pm ET by JerraldHayes

2. 
   wmoureau | Oct 16, 2006 10:19pm | #33

   we just did a house with 45 steps used kreg pocket method no glue at all

3. 
   Merty | Oct 16, 2006 11:38pm | #34

   You can stain your parts ahead of time, but did you ever notice that the stain seals the wood and blocks out the glue from bonding to the wood fibers? If it's a joint that will be under some stress, I'd have to recommend against the preglue-up stain deal unless there is some way to mask the areas to be jointed.

1. 
   tfarwell | Oct 17, 2006 02:35am | #37

   Polyurathane glue seems to hold the stained wood relly well. I avoid wood glue for the reason you gave. BTW, I never just poly glue the joints - I always add screws.

12. 
    SBerruezo | Oct 15, 2006 02:42am | #28

    Lee Valley carries a product called Waxilit that you are supposed to be able to apply to wood around the glue joint.  Also supposed to clean up easily.  Haven't tried it myself, though

     

    Thanks for your help.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 16, 2006 05:49am | #31

   I have used Johnson paste wax.Afteward wipe it with MS and then after sanding I have not had a a problem with staining it.

1. 
   MisterT | Oct 16, 2006 01:10pm | #32

   Wipe it with MicroSoft???

   well at least there is something thier software does well.... 

    

    

    

    

   #$&%(*$#

   Please excuse our mess....

   Tagline under reconstruction...

    

13. 
    maverick | Oct 17, 2006 01:01am | #36

    some projects I make a solution of yellow glue and water about 5 parts water to 1 part glue. brush it on, let it dry and sand.

    it pr-raises the grain before stain and stains evenly without glue lines or blotchy areas.

    using this procedure will stain up lighter than usual. some times you need a second stain application to tone up to your liking. even so - much less time and labor